DC superhero "coming out"

[Melayl]

According to MSN, an established DC hero is "coming out"... (http://now.msn.com/entertainment/0520-dc-gay-character.aspx)

I just wanted to tap the psyche of the Playground to see who you all think it might be. I've been out of DC too long to have much of a guess myself.

[Zevox]

Huh. Sounds like a bit of a publicity stunt to me, but eh, there are worse ways to do that.

Considering the reboot basically gives them free reign to change characters, it could be just about anyone. From what I understand the only major hero whose marriage survived the reboot is Aquaman, so he'd be just about the only one out of the running - though that's assuming that the character will be gay specifically; I suppose they could mean bisexual instead.

Zevox

[Soras Teva Gee]

Here's a better article. (http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/05/20/kapow-2012-dc-comics-to-make-an-existing-character-gay/)

Also don't count on it being anyone actually prominent. Certainly not prominent enough to hold down their own title. (Okay maybe as "prominent" as Supergirl if its a lady... but I doubt it)

[Devonix]

Oh no a gay DC Superhero..... You know there are pre existing homosexual and lesbian superheroes in DC and Marvel already.

[deuxhero]

Making news out of it pretty much confirmed it won't be handled well I think.

Hopefully they do it better than Northstar...

[Zevox]

Here's a better article. (http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/05/20/kapow-2012-dc-comics-to-make-an-existing-character-gay/)

Also don't count on it being anyone actually prominent. Certainly not prominent enough to hold down their own title. (Okay maybe as "prominent" as Supergirl if its a lady... but I doubt it)
Actually, reading that article and the one it links to, don't count on it being anyone remotely prominent. They say they're about to "reintroduce" a character who wasn't gay before but will be now, which means it has to be someone who has thus far been absent from the post-reboot comics. And I'm pretty sure that all the prominent characters have been in already.

...wait. Wait no, actually, I can think of one that hasn't. While I don't read the comics myself (aside from trades of the Green Lantern series, and the first of the post-reboot ones haven't hit yet), I do have a friend who reads literally everything DC puts out, and occasionally have him tell me about the current goings-on in them, and this character's mysterious absence has come up more than once over the last year.

Wally West, the second Flash. He's been missing since the reboot, with Barry Allen being the current Flash and Bart Allen being the current Kid Flash. My friend has remarked several times on how strange this is, given Barry Allen was just resurrected shortly before the reboot, after a twenty-plus year period of being dead with Wally being the Flash. This kind of stunt might just explain why such a major character hasn't yet been included in the post-reboot universe.

Zevox

[Othesemo]

Meh. I don't really read comic books that much. Honestly, I'm not sure what significance this has.

[Melayl]

Oh no a gay DC Superhero..... You know there are pre existing homosexual and lesbian superheroes in DC and Marvel already.

I do know that, actually. I was just curious as to who this one might be, and wondering if the Playground had any insight. For the record, I don't think it a "bad" thing, as your post seemed (IMO) to imply. I could be wrong about the intent of your post, since tone cannot be easily trasmitted through text...

[otakuryoga]

haven't they and marvel both done the "reveal that a hero is gay" thing multiple times already since the early 90's? /YAWN

[kpenguin]

Honestly, making an established hero gay isn't nearly as shocking as they seem to think it will be, especially since they've already caused far more major changes. Making Billy Batson an unlikable jerk, for instance.

I'm bothered that they're making such a big announcement out of it. I mean, was there this much hubbub from Marvel when they had Ultimate Colossus come out?

[Oltharius]

Honestly, I'd prefer it if this was about a TV show and not comics. Comics have had gay characters for almost two decades now. It's just not surprising or revolutionary anymore. However, TV shows, especially kids' shows, tend to avoid the topic like the plague. That's were we need more gays.

Although, that said, Bruce Timm has been really great about it, adding gay characters to his stuff, like Batman: The Animated Series and Superman: The Animated Series, which is quite coincidental considering the topic at hand. :P

[TheLaughingMan]

For the record, I don't think it a "bad" thing, as your post seemed (IMO) to imply. I could be wrong about the intent of your post, since tone cannot be easily trasmitted through text...

This:


haven't they and marvel both done the "reveal that a hero is gay" thing multiple times already since the early 90's? /YAWN

This is why no one really cares for this. It's the same reaction as when they gut random heroes to replace them with almost identical minority characters: it's an author tract at best and a PR stunt at worst. There's not really any conceivable purpose for such a stunt outside that and next-to-no chance this will end well. If one wanted to really say something important about the state of affairs, there's already quite a few LGBT characters there to say it with. You must only advertise them.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Wally West, the second Flash. He's been missing since the reboot, with Barry Allen being the current Flash and Bart Allen being the current Kid Flash. My friend has remarked several times on how strange this is, given Barry Allen was just resurrected shortly before the reboot, after a twenty-plus year period of being dead with Wally being the Flash. This kind of stunt might just explain why such a major character hasn't yet been included in the post-reboot universe.

Zevox

Fascinating... of course this would mean a publicity stunt since Wally is obviously not around because well, you have Flash and Kid Flash but three characters so ONE of them has to be benched. I can see why Wally would draw the short straw there, because people will handle his absence better then a regression to Kid Flash.

I'd be very surprised if they went for something so high on the tree, but it is tangibly possible I must admit. Still the safe bet is on some B/C lister on a team or other satellite character. Not like comic book editors don't crank out marketing BS or nothing.

(Side note as most books are by definition only maybe one story in or so I wouldn't take non-appearence too seriously as a requirement depending on the character and specifics of their appearence. This apparently derives from a Q&A panel not a press release)

[Traab]

Meh, so long as they dont go some ludicrous direction like going as stereotypically gay as possible. In other words, I dont want Superman to start acting like Big Gay Al from South Park. So long as that isnt the direction i dont really care much. Revealing that one of the male or female heroes is gay shouldnt have that much of an effect, at least not past the story arc the makes this "big reveal"

Honestly, that would probably be the thing that annoys me the most. Going too far towards in your face writing, where every other panel has to mention that wally west suddenly likes dudes, or that hawkgirl is sighing over wonder woman, or where every other story arc revolves around the homosexuality of the hero in some manner,

Batman: "Omg! My boyfriend **** Grayson was kidnapped! We need to save him, because I love him. He is my boyfriend you know!"

[Zevox]

Fascinating... of course this would mean a publicity stunt since Wally is obviously not around because well, you have Flash and Kid Flash but three characters so ONE of them has to be benched.
I don't see why. The Green Lantern comics have fully four human GLs active, and have since Hal Jordan's resurrection a good seven or eight years ago now. Granted they're spread over three books now, but for a while it was only two, with two Earth GLs per book. I could see Barry and Wally sharing the spotlight in one Flash book in that kind of manner, or even each getting his own book. Or at least Wally getting put on one of the dozens of team books DC does while Barry gets the main Flash book.

Basically, I don't see them needing to just ignore one of the three Flashes just because there are three of them.


Still the safe bet is on some B/C lister on a team or other satellite character. Not like comic book editors don't crank out marketing BS or nothing.
True, I'm just extrapolating based on the assumption that they actually mean what they said. They could always just be over-hyping something much more minor.

Zevox

[TheEmerged]

I'll take "Shameless Publicity Stunt" for $100, Alex.

[Prime32]

I don't see why. The Green Lantern comics have fully four human GLs active, and have since Hal Jordan's resurrection a good seven or eight years ago now. Granted they're spread over three books now, but for a while it was only two, with two Earth GLs per book. I could see Barry and Wally sharing the spotlight in one Flash book in that kind of manner, or even each getting his own book. Or at least Wally getting put on one of the dozens of team books DC does while Barry gets the main Flash book.

Basically, I don't see them needing to just ignore one of the three Flashes just because there are three of them.Calling it. The gay guy is going to be Kilowog.

[Fragenstein]

At this point it'd be more shocking if DC actually introduced a STRAIGHT female character.

[Buwh]

Talking about their homosexuality every other panel? Well, it's just a romance, and they do tend to shove romance down our throat- I mean, Superman is always jibber-jabbering about Lois Lane and having to go save her and mentioning her in other conversations. I don't see why it'd suddenly be worse if it was a dude.

And, it definitely has to be a dude. Not straight girls are almost, dare I say, common now and play into nerd fantasy. It has to be a guy or it just doesn't count anymore.

[Tigrita]

Opened article. Saw the name Dan DiDio. Read the second "I" as an "L".

Stopped reading article because there is no way any of the actual content would be as interesting as that.

[JDMSJR]

My guess is it's going to be Mr. Terrific. (rimshot)

Mark another one down in the shameless publicity stunt catagory.

[ThePhantasm]

Bet you anything it will be a female and not a male. Just a prediction.

[Ravens_cry]

We live in interesting times when society makes a big deal about this, but in a 'Ooh, we're so edgy' kind of way.
I had an idea for for a superhero duo who happen to be gay: Robert and Earnest Maxwell AKA Rook and Knight.
Knight is a gymnastic type with a kind of short ranged teleportation, allowing him get the drop on enemies, literally, coming at them from unexpected angles.
Rook is an almost literal brick wall of a man, a big heavy bruiser with force fields attached to his forarms like sheilds. He starts slow, but once he gets up to speed, inertia practically does the work for him.
Like I aid, they happen to be gay, but are in a happy relationship, partners in every sense of the word.
Sure, there's beeps, but that's always the case in any long term relationship.

[Dr.Epic]

Well it can't be Batman because I'm pretty sure he's already come out.:smallwink:

[Dienekes]

Oh joy a hero is going to be having another romantic subplot. *fails to suppress yawn*

Though honestly, if this is the big news from the DC Reboot, I'm kind of glad I stopped keeping up with comics years ago.

[Devonix]

Talking about their homosexuality every other panel? Well, it's just a romance, and they do tend to shove romance down our throat- I mean, Superman is always jibber-jabbering about Lois Lane and having to go save her and mentioning her in other conversations. I don't see why it'd suddenly be worse if it was a dude.

And, it definitely has to be a dude. Not straight girls are almost, dare I say, common now and play into nerd fantasy. It has to be a guy or it just doesn't count anymore.

You know what. I actually miss that just a little. I can't really remember the last time Supes has actually had to Save Lois from something in comics it would be nice for nostalgia's sake for it to happen again.

[Green-Shirt Q]

As much as I don't like this being made a publicity stunt, and being an ally I find that making a character homosexual simply for profit and comic sales to be incredibly offensive, I would LOVE to see a gay Superman, Batman or Green Lantern.

As unlikely as it would be that they'd retool one of their major characters in such a way (especially Superman, since they are apperently re-tooling him for a romance with Wonderwoman) I would actually go a little easier on the reboot in general, stop hating it so much, and maybe even pick up a copy of Gay Superman/ Batman. It would be a pretty good advancement for gay rights if DC showed that the major Super heroes can be gay without it being "weird" or "alienating" and just having them act like, you know, a regular human being.

That is, if this is treated well. Which it won't be. Not to be an elitist and whiney nerd (guess I'm already too late) but DC just went friggen DOWNHILL with this reboot and publicity-whoring crap. While some stories coming out of it have been good apperently, the entire thing's been really dissapointing and the bone-headed descisions they've made lately, like this one, have really made me lose respect in the company. Before the reboot, they were my favourites instead of Marvel. :smallfrown:

[nyarlathotep]

As much as I don't like this being made a publicity stunt, and being an ally I find that making a character homosexual simply for profit and comic sales to be incredibly offensive, I would LOVE to see a gay Superman, Batman or Green Lantern.

As unlikely as it would be that they'd retool one of their major characters in such a way (especially Superman, since they are apperently re-tooling him for a romance with Wonderwoman) I would actually go a little easier on the reboot in general, stop hating it so much, and maybe even pick up a copy of Gay Superman/ Batman. It would be a pretty good advancement for gay rights if DC showed that the major Super heroes can be gay without it being "weird" or "alienating" and just having them act like, you know, a regular human being.

That is, if this is treated well. Which it won't be. Not to be an elitist and whiney nerd (guess I'm already too late) but DC just went friggen DOWNHILL with this reboot and publicity-whoring crap. While some stories coming out of it have been good apperently, the entire thing's been really dissapointing and the bone-headed descisions they've made lately, like this one, have really made me lose respect in the company. Before the reboot, they were my favourites instead of Marvel. :smallfrown:

But but, Demon Knights is good. And umm... I can't think of anything else improved by it.

[Man on Fire]

Actually, reading that article and the one it links to, don't count on it being anyone remotely prominent. They say they're about to "reintroduce" a character who wasn't gay before but will be now, which means it has to be someone who has thus far been absent from the post-reboot comics. And I'm pretty sure that all the prominent characters have been in already.

...wait. Wait no, actually, I can think of one that hasn't. While I don't read the comics myself (aside from trades of the Green Lantern series, and the first of the post-reboot ones haven't hit yet), I do have a friend who reads literally everything DC puts out, and occasionally have him tell me about the current goings-on in them, and this character's mysterious absence has come up more than once over the last year.

Wally West, the second Flash. He's been missing since the reboot, with Barry Allen being the current Flash and Bart Allen being the current Kid Flash. My friend has remarked several times on how strange this is, given Barry Allen was just resurrected shortly before the reboot, after a twenty-plus year period of being dead with Wally being the Flash. This kind of stunt might just explain why such a major character hasn't yet been included in the post-reboot universe.

Zevox

Tvtropes will have entire pages of unfortunate implications to write about it for weeks if that's really true.

Also, homosexualism and publicity stun - that's a new low, even for DC. Hell, even for DC after they pulled out "Ro-Bama" bullmanure.


I can't think of anything else improved by it.

Animal Man, Swamp Thing, probably Ressurection Man, through I'm behind with that one.


At this point it'd be more shocking if DC actually introduced a STRAIGHT female character.

Batman-raping Catwoman? Or did Judd Winnick make her bisexual too?
How many bisexual characters does DC have anyway? Marvel has somehwere around 13 if I remember correctly (however many they have, the ratio was one man more than number of women when I was counting).

[Traab]

Batman-raping Catwoman?

When the hell did that happen?

[Man on Fire]

When the hell did that happen?

Very first issue of new, post reboot Catwoman series - she forces herself on him and narration is like from a hentai "at first he doesn't want it, then he learns to enjoy it".

[OracleofWuffing]

Well it can't be Batman because I'm pretty sure he's already come out.:smallwink:
Honestly, with all the obvious guesses about the publicity stunt, I'm surprised we've gone this far without mentioning Robin.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, with all the low-hanging fruit guesses about the publicity stunt, I'm surprised we've gone this far without mentioning Robin.

And I'm surprised no one has linked to this (http://www.hulu.com/watch/241605/saturday-night-live-ambiguously-gay-duo) yet.

[Ravens_cry]

Bats at his most brooding is practically asexual.

[Traab]

Very first issue of new, post reboot Catwoman series - she forces herself on him and narration is like from a hentai "at first he doesn't want it, then he learns to enjoy it".

So she raped him then. I thought that sounded a little off the other way around. Wasnt there an issue where some girl has the hots for nightwing and he gets hurt and she rapes him while he is injured? I looked it up, Tarantula.

[Devonix]

So she raped him then. I thought that sounded a little off the other way around. Wasnt there an issue where some girl has the hots for nightwing and he gets hurt and she rapes him while he is injured? I looked it up, Tarantula.

Strangely enough I know many otherwise intelligent men and women who think its impossible for a man to be raped. IE any man who gets raped wants it and no straight man would ever turn down sex.

[Brother Oni]

Strangely enough I know many otherwise intelligent men and women who think its impossible for a man to be raped. IE any man who gets raped wants it and no straight man would ever turn down sex.

Until the invention of viagra and other ED drugs, female on male rape was generally quite rare.

[HandofShadows]

Batman-raping Catwoman? Or did Judd Winnick make her bisexual too?


Catwoman going both ways has been around for many years now. At least 2 reboots ago IIRC.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Until the invention of viagra and other ED drugs, female on male rape was generally quite rare.

First a public service announcement: Its an an involuntary physiological feature. (http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361#3)

NOW WHY IS THIS UNDER DISCUSSION.

[Tyndmyr]

Until the invention of viagra and other ED drugs, female on male rape was generally quite rare.

Well....let's not equate a biological reflex with mental agreement, shall we?

And regardless, it's not a topic I particularly want in my comics.

[Axolotl]

Is this really still controversial? I mean they've had Apollo and Midnighter running around for a decade surely we're used to gay superheroes by now?

[nyarlathotep]

Until the invention of viagra and other ED drugs, female on male rape was generally quite rare.

Actually a small amount of string makes such things trivially easy, even beyond the previously mentioned fact that a lot of it is involuntary.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: The topic of rape is both off topic for the thread and liable to get into other rules problems. Please go back to discussing comics.

[Brother Oni]

Reply dropped due to mod response.



And regardless, it's not a topic I particularly want in my comics.

I guess you steer well clear of anything written by Garth Ennis then. :smalltongue:

[9mm]

it's Wonder Woman or Catwoman. I'll eat my hat if it isn't.

[Traab]

it's Wonder Woman or Catwoman. I'll eat my hat if it isn't.

Wasnt wonder woman originally a lesbian? Or at least bisexual. I mean come on, she lived on an island of nothing but women for what, a couple hundred years? Im thinking Raven from teen titans. Why? Why not? It would be a fairly unimportant change to the character, as, aside from beast boy she never really had much a romantic relationship aspect. So her being attracted to women would give dc their new "gay" character, while not having to do much beyond the arc that points it out. It would barely be more obvious than dumbledoore. (Since we only found that out by the author directly stating it)

[Ravens_cry]

But I always ship RavenXBeast Boy. . . :smallfrown:
As for Wonder Woman, unless Steve Trevor was secretly a woman, no, Wonder Woman was not "originally a lesbian."
Her creator was rather a bondage enthusiast mind you, and that definitely leaked into his work. See "Aphrodite's Law".

[Dienekes]

But I always ship RavenXBeast Boy. . . :smallfrown:

Ehh no matter what if they change a characters sexuality it'll make some shippers somewhere incredibly distraught. And, oddly in my opinion, other shippers elsewhere embarrassingly overjoyed.

Shippers are weird like that.


As for Wonder Woman, unless Steve Trevor was secretly a woman, no, Wonder Woman was not "originally a lesbian."
Her creator was rather a bondage enthusiast mind you, and that definitely leaked into his work. See "Aphrodite's Law".

Yeah, early Wonder Woman could get a little freaky. But I think it was more that the Amazons were on an island of only women, however I don't think the altered sexual identity this would likely cause in the Amazons was ever explored.

[Ravens_cry]

Ehh no matter what if they change a characters sexuality it'll make some shippers somewhere incredibly distraught. And, oddly in my opinion, other shippers elsewhere embarrassingly overjoyed.

Shippers are weird like that.

Yes, yes we are.:smallbiggrin:


Yeah, early Wonder Woman could get a little freaky. But I think it was more that the Amazons were on an island of only women, however I don't think the altered sexual identity this would likely cause in the Amazons was ever explored.
It was the forties; it is very very to the power of very doubtful indeed.

[Dienekes]

Yes, yes we are.:smallbiggrin:

I don't think I will understand you people if I live to be a hundred. But keep doing what you do. If nothing else, your collective reactions when a popular ship is destroyed is hilarious.


It was the forties; it is very very to the power of very doubtful indeed.

True, but I meant currently as well. Though this could just be my limited knowledge, and the fact that if a comic did focus on the sexual identity of the Amazons it would be just about the last comic I'd actually pick up.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't think I will understand you people if I live to be a hundred. But keep doing what you do. If nothing else, your collective reactions when a popular ship is destroyed is hilarious.

Yeah, some of us are awful freaky.:smallcool:



True, but I meant currently as well. Though this could just be my limited knowledge, and the fact that if a comic did focus on the sexual identity of the Amazons it would be just about the last comic I'd actually pick up.
I agree, it would almost certainly just devolve into HAWT LESBO MAKEOUTS R HAWT. *shudders*

[industrious]

Could be Tim Drake.

[Traab]

Yeah, some of us are awful freaky.:smallcool:


I agree, it would almost certainly just devolve into HAWT LESBO MAKEOUTS R HAWT. *shudders*

At least in most fanfiction ive read that mentioned this it was generally handled like this, "Well duh, I spent 200 years on an island with nothing but women, of course I had sex with some ladies. So what?" And then its generally never mentioned again. But then again, I tend to stay away from the crappy lemon filled garbage. Its generally only brought up to make a point about something.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm not the biggest fan of fan-fiction myself, though I have read some good stuff, and the most notable comic book characters have been around long enough that the work can basically be considered official fan-fiction, for better or for worse.

[Zevox]

So, I got to talk to my aforementioned comic-enthusiast friend about this today, and he had a couple of new theories on who it would be.

Taking their statement that the character would be a major one more seriously, he suggested the Atom. Apparently while Ray Palmer has been a background character since the reboot, he hasn't been the Atom, and another Atom, Ryan Choi, is supposedly going to be joining the Justice League in the relatively near future. Aside from Wally West, that's the biggest DC character he could think of that would fit the bill - although he is still just a B-lister at best, so they'd still be overselling it a bit by saying it's a major character.

Taking that aspect of the announcement less seriously, he suggested Vibe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibe_%28comics%29). Apparently he's an obscure character that was never popular who my friend was shocked to learn that DC actually intends to bring back sometime soon, so he was guessing they might make him gay just as a way to get him some publicity and any sort of a fanbase.

Zevox

[Man on Fire]

True, but I meant currently as well. Though this could just be my limited knowledge, and the fact that if a comic did focus on the sexual identity of the Amazons it would be just about the last comic I'd actually pick up.

Gail Simone wanted to have Hippilita marry another woman, but DC editorial didn't left her.


And now I remember the good times Gail Simone wasn't writing bad fanfictions in form of comics.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Current Wonder Woman. Possible, but doubtful. First and foremost, it's too easy.

Second, this is a character with a history of "reveals" that are never heard from again when the next writer takes over.

Thirdly, current WW is not the one from the 40's. The amazons'... urges are being... dealt with... This fact was news to Diana, for the record. Oh, and the other amazons are all either snakes or stone right now.

She's the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta, and she isn't centuries old. The amazons have been reproducing by capturing ships, getting pregnant ala Catwoman issue 1, and then killing the men. The boys born this way have their own 'tribe' of sorts with Hephestus.

[Tyndmyr]

I guess you steer well clear of anything written by Garth Ennis then. :smalltongue:

Is he the guy who wrote the cthulu rip-off book titled something similar to Necronomicon(one or two letters off)? I grabbed it, assuming it'd be solid lovecraftian fare, and hated it immensely.

The only exception I can think of where it was handled at all well was Watchmen...I generally read comics and stuff to relax and enjoy myself. I don't really need dark, sordid content in them to do that.

[Traab]

RE: Current Wonder Woman. Possible, but doubtful. First and foremost, it's too easy.

Second, this is a character with a history of "reveals" that are never heard from again when the next writer takes over.

Thirdly, current WW is not the one from the 40's. The amazons'... urges are being... dealt with... This fact was news to Diana, for the record. Oh, and the other amazons are all either snakes or stone right now.

She's the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta, and she isn't centuries old. The amazons have been reproducing by capturing ships, getting pregnant ala Catwoman issue 1, and then killing the men. The boys born this way have their own 'tribe' of sorts with Hephestus.

So its more like the idea of amazons from other sources? A lot of stories I read that involve amazons in some form generally tend to go that route. *cough* death by snu snu *cough*

[industrious]

Gail Simone wanted to have Hippilita marry another woman, but DC editorial didn't left her.


And now I remember the good times Gail Simone wasn't writing bad fanfictions in form of comics.

Hear hear!

I still think Tim Drake is fairly probable.

[Dienekes]

RE: Current Wonder Woman. Possible, but doubtful. First and foremost, it's too easy.

Second, this is a character with a history of "reveals" that are never heard from again when the next writer takes over.

Thirdly, current WW is not the one from the 40's. The amazons'... urges are being... dealt with... This fact was news to Diana, for the record. Oh, and the other amazons are all either snakes or stone right now.

She's the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta, and she isn't centuries old. The amazons have been reproducing by capturing ships, getting pregnant ala Catwoman issue 1, and then killing the men. The boys born this way have their own 'tribe' of sorts with Hephestus.

So you're saying that the Amazons are murderers and should be destroyed.

I think we can take them. All we need to worry about is their deadly bee weapons.

[TSGames]

A DC hero coming out? That's just SUPER ;)

[pendell]

:Yawn: Yet another stunt because the well of ideas is completely dry. You won't woo me back from Shonen Jump , Dark Horse and webcomics with such silliness -- only quality art will do that.

I completely lost interest in Marvel/DC comics in about 1989 because the characters never change. There is no character development, and all plots are reset. I much prefer Japanese storytelling, where there is character development and a beginning, middle, and end.

Publicity stunts aren't a substitute for skillful storytelling. Wake me up when they've got something interesting to say. Until then, stunts like killing superman or gay superheroes or that other comic outfit marrying Archie Andrews off afford me nothing but a moment's amusement. Certainly no reason to want to read comics that have been irrelevant to me since high school.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Traab]

:Yawn: Yet another stunt because the well of ideas is completely dry. You won't woo me back from Shonen Jump , Dark Horse and webcomics with such silliness -- only quality art will do that.

I completely lost interest in Marvel/DC comics in about 1989 because the characters never change. There is no character development, and all plots are reset. I much prefer Japanese storytelling, where there is character development and a beginning, middle, and end.

Publicity stunts aren't a substitute for skillful storytelling. Wake me up when they've got something interesting to say. Until then, stunts like killing superman or gay superheroes or that other comic outfit marrying Archie Andrews off afford me nothing but a moment's amusement. Certainly no reason to want to read comics that have been irrelevant to me since high school.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


You have a point. I understand that they want to milk their big hit stars as much as possible, but come on, give superman his storyline, give it an ending, then create some new superhero and do it again. Much like the various shonen have its similarities from story to story, so would the comics. Superhero gets his powers, becomes a hero, fights bad guys, deals with his personal life, then has an ending of some sort.

[shadow_archmagi]

My money's on Aquaman or Martian Manhunter.

[pendell]

I much prefer Rich Burlew's and Quantum Vibe (http://www.quantumvibe.com/strip?page=268)'s approach.

I've been reading both these strips for awhile, they're too of my favorite strips, and it didn't hit me until just now that the protagonists of both strips are black. In fact, Quantum Vibe's Nicole is black female!

Now, the authors of both strips could have made a great big deal about it. We have black protagonists! We are fighting the good fight against racism and tyranny and evil in the world!

They COULD have done that ... but they don't.

Instead, they simply tell their stories. Roy is Roy and Nicole is Nicole. The storytelling is so effective that I completely forget that aspect of their stories when I'm reading it. The audience identification is so complete that I forget that the protagonists in both stores aren't exactly like me -- that if we had all lived back in 1950s America, or even 1970s America, their story would have been different from mine purely because of the color of their skin.

And I think that's a greater blow against indemic racism .. assuming the authors have such an agenda .. than if they had put up great big banner headlines and dropped the Racism Is Bad 'mKay? Anvil every strip.

It's more effective because we know Roy and Nicole as characters -- realized humans -- first and as their other attributes second. If later in the strip we should find that one of the characters is actually gay or bisexual -- V wouldn't surprise me, and chaotic Haley wouldn't raise an eyebrow -- I wouldn't really care much. Because I know them as V and Haley first and their issues, struggles, and attributes second.

The art comes first, then the message. The message can't carry poor art. All it can do is make people feel guilty because they're reading stuff they WANT to read rather than the ostensibly socially-conscious stuff they're SUPPOSED to read. Well, I've never known guilt to be an effective marketing tool for comics. And I think slapping a socially constructive label on top of inferior art is a disservice both to the art and to the message. It's the same thing that turned me off of 'Christian' bookstores here in the states, because I came to believe that marketeers seriously expected people to pay higher prices for an inferior product simply because it was socially appealing to a particular target demographic. Same thing with DC and Marvel, except a different set of social mores and a different target audience. But a pig with socially-conscious lipstick is still a pig, and I'm not paying for it.

That's why I think this is a stupid mistake for DC/Marvel even from the standpoint of advocacy. The most effective advocacy is when we have a fully realized character we care about that *just happens* to have some attribute or inner struggle. We know them as a person first and a problem second. But whoever DC rolls out won't be a person first -- they will be first and foremost identified as a social issue first and a realized human being a distant second .A walking billboard, a cardboard advertisement. Why not just go back to Pilgrim's Progress and roll out Faith, Hope, Chastity, and Giant Despair while we're at it? John Bunyan didn't even *try* to make those believable characters. They were personality traits given arms and legs to walk about.

Come to think of it, that's why I stopped caring about DC and Marvel awhile back. They seem incapable of making characters I care about or identify with. They're simply childhood action figures given momentary life, repainted with whatever personality suits the flavor-of-the-month for maximum marketing gain, then reset to something else following the next desperate reboot because the audience doesn't care about flavor-of-the-month superhero anymore than they did last month's.

This need for continual reboot to try to breathe life into ailing products impacts the RPG world as well .. but if there's no room in this thread for rape, there's probably no room for an edition war either :). All I , a grumpy old man, can say is a plague on both their houses and give me manga.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Axolotl]

Is he the guy who wrote the cthulu rip-off book titled something similar to Necronomicon(one or two letters off)? I grabbed it, assuming it'd be solid lovecraftian fare, and hated it immensely.

The only exception I can think of where it was handled at all well was Watchmen...I generally read comics and stuff to relax and enjoy myself. I don't really need dark, sordid content in them to do that.Neonomicon was written by Alan Moore.

Garth Ennis Wrote Preacher, Hitman, Crossed and what's generally considered the best run on the Punisher. He's certainly someone you should avoid if you don't like dark or sordid content.

Although his current series The Boys has an awful lot of gay superheroes, far more than I bet Marvel or DC have put together I bet.

[Zevox]

My money's on Aquaman or Martian Manhunter.
I think Aquaman's just about the least likely to be the one. He's (to my understanding) the only DC superhero whose marriage survived the reboot. Unless they intend on making him bisexual and introducing a love triangle with a guy, that kinda puts a serious monkey wrench into the works.

Zevox

[Raimun]

Isn't Batwoman lesbian? I could be wrong since I don't read DC nearly as much as Marvel but google seems to agree with me. Anyway, this doesn't seem like "new" or "shocking".

[DiscipleofBob]

It's a shame this wasn't a major Marvel character instead we could speculate about. Otherwise we could have the Fabulous Four.

Mr. Fabulous, Flaming Torch, Butch, and the Unnoticeable Woman

[Maxios]

Is he the guy who wrote the cthulu rip-off book titled something similar to Necronomicon(one or two letters off)? I grabbed it, assuming it'd be solid lovecraftian fare, and hated it immensely.

The only exception I can think of where it was handled at all well was Watchmen...I generally read comics and stuff to relax and enjoy myself. I don't really need dark, sordid content in them to do that.

I think you're getting mixed up with Alan Moore.

Anyway I think this is an attempt to gain publicity by DC. This change will last a few months until the comic the character appears in gets a new writer, and then the new writer retcons it.

[Tavar]

Isn't Batwoman lesbian? I could be wrong since I don't read DC nearly as much as Marvel but google seems to agree with me. Anyway, this doesn't seem like "new" or "shocking".

Pretty sure both she and the current Question are lesbians, with the implication(at least in one story) that they were involved at some point.

[slayerx]

So, I got to talk to my aforementioned comic-enthusiast friend about this today, and he had a couple of new theories on who it would be.

Taking their statement that the character would be a major one more seriously, he suggested the Atom. Apparently while Ray Palmer has been a background character since the reboot, he hasn't been the Atom, and another Atom, Ryan Choi, is supposedly going to be joining the Justice League in the relatively near future. Aside from Wally West, that's the biggest DC character he could think of that would fit the bill - although he is still just a B-lister at best, so they'd still be overselling it a bit by saying it's a major character.


Ray Palmer doesn't seem impossible. I mean, while he was previously married, it was a marriage that ended badly and things got even worse from there. Granted i don't know a great deal of what his married life was like, only how it ended... However, even as a B-lister i would still think he would be counted as a "major" character as far as DC is concerned since just about ever comicbook fan knows him, he's been popular enough to be put at the center of major storylines, and he's had some of his own comicbook lines

Wally West i would think would be a TERRIBLE candidate since last i checked, before the reboot, he had a wife and two kids. That just makes for a terrible choice of character to turn homosexual

Frankly, i'd rather they use a character that wasn't known for having relationships with the opposite gender. However, i don't like the idea at all since it just comes off as bad writing... instead of character just naturally being homosexual, they are altering a character via editorial mandate. It comes off as being nothing more than a publicity stunt than a good writing choice... in a way it feels like forcing a character to act out of character, instead of a natural reveal and/or transition



The art comes first, then the message. The message can't carry poor art. All it can do is make people feel guilty because they're reading stuff they WANT to read rather than the ostensibly socially-conscious stuff they're SUPPOSED to read. Well, I've never known guilt to be an effective marketing tool for comics. And I think slapping a socially constructive label on top of inferior art is a disservice both to the art and to the message. It's the same thing that turned me off of 'Christian' bookstores here in the states, because I came to believe that marketeers seriously expected people to pay higher prices for an inferior product simply because it was socially appealing to a particular target demographic. Same thing with DC and Marvel, except a different set of social mores and a different target audience. But a pig with socially-conscious lipstick is still a pig, and I'm not paying for it.

That's why I think this is a stupid mistake for DC/Marvel even from the standpoint of advocacy. The most effective advocacy is when we have a fully realized character we care about that *just happens* to have some attribute or inner struggle. We know them as a person first and a problem second. But whoever DC rolls out won't be a person first -- they will be first and foremost identified as a social issue first and a realized human being a distant second .A walking billboard, a cardboard advertisement. Why not just go back to Pilgrim's Progress and roll out Faith, Hope, Chastity, and Giant Despair while we're at it? John Bunyan didn't even *try* to make those believable characters. They were personality traits given arms and legs to walk about.


This i agree with. When it comes to the homosexuals that appeared in comics the ones i thought worked the best are the ones who didn't make a big deal out of it. Its just one factor of their rich lives


Isn't Batwoman lesbian?

Yes she is. its even hard coded in her oirigin story since he path to vigilantism started when she was kicked out of the military under the "don't ask don't tell" policy

[Zevox]

Ray Palmer doesn't seem impossible.
Actually, my friend meant Ryan Choi. I mentioned Ray Palmer just to address the fact that he has been around since the reboot. Perhaps that simply caused confusion though.


Wally West i would think would be a TERRIBLE candidate since last i checked, before the reboot, he had a wife and two kids. That just makes for a terrible choice of character to turn homosexual
The operative part of that being "before the reboot." The reboot gives them license to change anything about the character they want and have it technically make sense, and since Wally hasn't been seen since the reboot they haven't yet reestablished any relationships for him, making him a feasible choice.

Zevox

[Tyndmyr]

Neonomicon was written by Alan Moore.

Garth Ennis Wrote Preacher, Hitman, Crossed and what's generally considered the best run on the Punisher. He's certainly someone you should avoid if you don't like dark or sordid content.

Although his current series The Boys has an awful lot of gay superheroes, far more than I bet Marvel or DC have put together I bet.

Ah, gotcha.

I read some of Preacher, but all in all, it is a bit darker than I prefer, yes. Grittiness is all well and good, but I don't need a ridiculous amount of it thrown in my face.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You have a point. I understand that they want to milk their big hit stars as much as possible, but come on, give superman his storyline, give it an ending, then create some new superhero and do it again.

They create new superheroes all the time relatively speaking. And then the character fails to take off and eventually shuffles off into oblivion. Maybe they show up later in a team setting, and maybe they don't. If they even start with a book of their own it doesn't sell like the big names.

There are reason why Batman has several books to himself and several "Bat Family" titles in addition.

[Man on Fire]

Is he the guy who wrote the cthulu rip-off book titled something similar to Necronomicon(one or two letters off)? I grabbed it, assuming it'd be solid lovecraftian fare, and hated it immensely.

The only exception I can think of where it was handled at all well was Watchmen...I generally read comics and stuff to relax and enjoy myself. I don't really need dark, sordid content in them to do that.

If you mean Neonomicon,, that's Alan Moore, the guy who wrote Watchmen. garth ennis is the guy who wrote:
- Two or three Punisher series from which one was comedy, which means that Frank shoot Wolverine in the balls and ride him over with steamroller and one which was serious and gave us one of the most depressing stories with Frank ever (Slavers), followed by story introducing the most over the top and ridiculous villain he ever faced (Barracuda)
- Hitman, comedic series about telephatic killer for hire living in Gotham, which introduced Bueno Excellente, whose finest accomplishments in history are raping Lobo and Green Lantern.
- The Boys, series about superheroes which in first issue has three members of JLA parody force teenage superheroine to give them oral sex.

Do not confuse with Mark Millar, who is inffnitely times worse or with Warren Ellis, who is inffinitely times batter.

Also, I really dislike this stupid, false dichotomy that exist in comic book fandom. You either like happy comics or dark comics and you must despise the other. Comics must be good, if they are dark or not, doesn't make them either good or bad, it's the quality that matters. I'll take good dark comics over terrible happy comics any time a day and vice versa.


I completely lost interest in Marvel/DC comics in about 1989 because the characters never change. There is no character development, and all plots are reset. I much prefer Japanese storytelling, where there is character development and a beginning, middle, and end.


This. Sadly with DC and Marvel is either heroes who never change or heroes with which you can do interesting things, whose series gets cancelled in favor of the former.

[Tyndmyr]

Quality is of course a different matter from style, but I don't need rape and other such topics in my comics. At a certain point, you go from necessary setup of the villains to simply indulging in graphic fare. I don't really need the latter, nor do I want it.

And yeah, neonomicon was the name. It was...a terrible comic.

[Man on Fire]

Quality is of course a different matter from style, but I don't need rape and other such topics in my comics. At a certain point, you go from necessary setup of the villains to simply indulging in graphic fare. I don't really need the latter, nor do I want it.

Rape can be handled well, one of the best examples I can think of is Berserk, in which author works very hard to potray it as terrible and terrifing experience it is. Sadly too many times people throw it just as a cheap drama source or because it's controversial. Especially if their name is Mark Millar (http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-mark-millar-john-romita-jrs-kick-ass.html)

[nyarlathotep]

Rape can be handled well, one of the best examples I can think of is Berserk, in which author works very hard to potray it as terrible and terrifing experience it is. Sadly too many times people throw it just as a cheap drama source or because it's controversial. Especially if their name is Mark Millar (http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-mark-millar-john-romita-jrs-kick-ass.html)

To be fair Mark Millar is sort of a terrible writer for the same reasons that Gantz is a terrible series. Both authors seem to be pathologically incapable of portraying anyone as anything other than a horrible person or a victim or said terrible people.

[otakuryoga]

ooo,ooo, i got the answer.....
its going to be Klarion the Devil Boy

that way they can go "see see we are socially concious and want to represent every facet of society"
while at the same time being able to go "wink wink nudge nudge see conservative religious people we agree with you..the "gay" character is literally a devil..thereby showing that homosexuality is WRONG!"

[slayerx]

Actually, my friend meant Ryan Choi. I mentioned Ray Palmer just to address the fact that he has been around since the reboot. Perhaps that simply caused confusion though.


Ah i c, my mistake. Ya Ryan Choi might make a more feasible choice and oyu are also correct in that he is a lesser known hero. Everyone knows Ray Palmer; but not so much his successor



The operative part of that being "before the reboot." The reboot gives them license to change anything about the character they want and have it technically make sense, and since Wally hasn't been seen since the reboot they haven't yet reestablished any relationships for him, making him a feasible choice.


Ya, this is a writing practise i do not enjoy and only serves to confuse. One thing that has been annoying about the reboot is that fans no longer know for sure what is still canon and what isn't... some stuff happened but others didn't. And on top of that the writers don't mind altering personalities and long standing characteristics which long time fans knew and understood for years

Not to mention, in regards to Wally... i don't want to add his kids to the list of characters that suffered because of this reboot


This. Sadly with DC and Marvel is either heroes who never change or heroes with which you can do interesting things, whose series gets cancelled in favor of the former.

No i think there are some heroes that do go through changes and developments (sometimes changes for the worse)... i mean the x-men for instance went through some major changes over the years. Magneto was originally their most iconic villain and these days he's running around as one of the heroes; first he was terrorist, then a leader, and now he works with the heroes. Wolverine used to be a rough and tough badass, but now a days he more and more his mentality has been shifting more in line with Xavier's.

unfortunately, we occasionally get an editorial mandate handed down that winds up undoing those changes. With DC, one in particular that's been annoying me is Barbara's Gordon's return as batgirl. She seemed to have gone through such changes as Oracle that becoming batgirl again felt like a step backwards. Hell speaking of which, i find it ironic that they are claiming to be making this homosexual change to increase diversity when they took away the handicap of one of their most famous handicapped heroes.

[Traab]

Hell speaking of which, i find it ironic that they are claiming to be making this homosexual change to increase diversity when they took away the handicap of one of their most famous handicapped heroes.

Shhh! We arent supposed to mention that kind of thing. Here, to make you feel better, The REAL handicapped hero! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEaTFKG4IHs)

[AtlanteanTroll]

To be fair Mark Millar is sort of a terrible writer for the same reasons that Gantz is a terrible series. Both authors seem to be pathologically incapable of portraying anyone as anything other than a horrible person or a victim or said terrible people.

You haven't read Gantz in a while, have you?

[Zevox]

Hell speaking of which, i find it ironic that they are claiming to be making this homosexual change to increase diversity when they took away the handicap of one of their most famous handicapped heroes.
That's been an irony from the start of the whole reboot. They insisted they were focusing on increasing diversity right from the get-go, with things like making Cyborg a founding member of the Justice League held up as examples - yet they go and take the biggest handicapped character outside of Professor X and revert her to just being another knock-off of one of their big names. Smooth.

Zevox

[Man on Fire]

No i think there are some heroes that do go through changes and developments (sometimes changes for the worse)... i mean the x-men for instance went through some major changes over the years. Magneto was originally their most iconic villain and these days he's running around as one of the heroes; first he was terrorist, then a leader, and now he works with the heroes. Wolverine used to be a rough and tough badass, but now a days he more and more his mentality has been shifting more in line with Xavier's.

Neither case is really that clear. magneto? Every milestone issue he flips back to being a villain, undoing all character development he had for one "iconic" battle. Then somebody else start making him a hero again and everything repeats, guy is trapped in an endess circle, you know his time on the side of angels won't last and the same with his time on the side of villains.

Wolverine? He has been subjected to so many worldviews, perspectives and potrayals that somewhere along the line real him slipped between the pages and splashed on the floor. For many years he is only empty sheel whose only real characteristic is "badass" and everything else is exactly how writer wants him to be. I have the same problem with Batman by the way.

[Man on Fire]

To be fair Mark Millar is sort of a terrible writer for the same reasons that Gantz is a terrible series. Both authors seem to be pathologically incapable of portraying anyone as anything other than a horrible person or a victim or said terrible people.

Actually, Millar can produce good work when he wants and even likeable characters (I liked his potrayal of guys fro the Authority for example). The problem is he just doesn't want to. His comics are full of wonderfull ideas that are never explored in favor of being controversial and appealing to lowest common denominator. Too many times he wastes whatever plot he was doing because he either tries to make comics too cinematic or cannot keep his weiner in his pants. It's like he has imagination of Alan Moore and mindset of Michael Bay.

[nyarlathotep]

You haven't read Gantz in a while, have you?

Okay I guess I sold that Gantz a we bit short. When an attempt to write good people is made it almost always ends up pretty badly. I stopped reading shortly sometime in the alien invasion arch with monsters that look suspiciously like humans but still eat them. If its gotten better since then and the love story has progressed beyond shouting each other's names I wouldn't know.

[Lord Seth]

stunts like killing supermanHonestly, as far as "stunts" go, I thought that was a decent one. Sure, he came back, but it did give us an interesting look at what a world without Superman would be like.

The problem, of course, came when that sort of thing got overused and it lacked the emotional punch and perspective that the original did.

[Soras Teva Gee]

unfortunately, we occasionally get an editorial mandate handed down that winds up undoing those changes. With DC, one in particular that's been annoying me is Barbara's Gordon's return as batgirl. She seemed to have gone through such changes as Oracle that becoming batgirl again felt like a step backwards. Hell speaking of which, i find it ironic that they are claiming to be making this homosexual change to increase diversity when they took away the handicap of one of their most famous handicapped heroes.

In a world where there are various super sciences and guys like Steel could build an exoskeleton for her it makes very little sense that no one can heal a busted spinal column.

The REAL problem is that it was combined with Barbara not being Oracle anymore. Because seriously the resident intel expert for the entire superhero community can do sooo much more good as Batgirl taking out drug dealers in Gotham.

[Man on Fire]

In a world where there are various super sciences and guys like Steel could build an exoskeleton for her it makes very little sense that no one can heal a busted spinal column.

Explanation that she doesn't want special treatment rest of the world won't get worked pretty well for years. And honestly? With all people who do have some cybernetics or other things in DC you would have to be crazier than a man forced to watch Reb Brown movies for weeks without a break to even consider getting this "amazing treatment". Roy Harper? Cybernetic drowe him into drugs and murder. Metallo? Driven insane by his robot body. Cyborg? His life is terribly miserable because of his robot body? Damian Wayne? New spine turned him into a puppet in plan to kill Batman. Lazarus Pit? Drives you crazy.

That, and Batman books generally are set on lower technological level than rest of DC, more "realistic" and it's tone crashes with the tone of everything else and in Bat-books all that amazing science is to cause problems, nto to help. If you want realism then the only logical way to get it is to separate Gotham and Batman from rest of DCU, not make popular character abbandon her own ideals.

[DeathOfAMailman]

Vis a vis homosexual characters, I'm perfectly happy with how they handled Montoya, as an example for a fairly prominent (The Question/B:TAS) homosexual character. Incidentally, she's also one of the few superheroines who isn't Hollywood beautiful, and one of my favourite characters.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided that one of the Justice Leaguers should be gay. It seems like Guy Gardener's got a lot of pent-up frustration somewhere in there, a lot of it having to do with Hal.

[Brother Oni]

That, and Batman books generally are set on lower technological level than rest of DC, more "realistic" and it's tone crashes with the tone of everything else and in Bat-books all that amazing science is to cause problems, nto to help. If you want realism then the only logical way to get it is to separate Gotham and Batman from rest of DCU, not make popular character abbandon her own ideals.

So pretty much like the Punisher in the Punisher Max series? I think Tony Stark mentions it in passing, in that Frank occasionally just disappears off the face of the Earth and nobody except Daredevil can find him.

[Man on Fire]

So pretty much like the Punisher in the Punisher Max series? I think Tony Stark mentions it in passing, in that Frank occasionally just disappears off the face of the Earth and nobody except Daredevil can find him.

It was in the handbook they published after Civil War:

Although recently Castle has escalated his war on crime even further, with record-breaking body counts, he is paradoxically now rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil.(...)It’s almost like he inhabits two worlds, one where heroes can capture him and one where they can’t, and he can slip from one to the other with ease.

[Aotrs Commander]

Didn't they have him butchered by four-asterisk-head Daken and have him come back as a zombie or something, as a tacit admission that in a world of super-heros, he was just utterly out of his league as a regular human or something? I thought it was kind of a jerk move at the time, and I don't even like Punisher.

[Lurkmoar]

Didn't they have him butchered by four-asterisk-head Daken and have him come back as a zombie or something, as a tacit admission that in a world of super-heros, he was just utterly out of his league as a regular human or something? I thought it was kind of a jerk move at the time, and I don't even like Punisher.

Yeah, he was Frankencastle for a short time.

Obviously, he's all better now. Last I checked. I forget the actual method of how he got fixed up.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, he was Frankencastle for a short time.

Obviously, he's all better now. Last I checked. I forget the actual method of how he got fixed up.

Oh, good to hear. Glad that didn't last long.

Not least because four-asterisk-head Daken doesn't deserve to be have the honour being the guy who killed him. Or even be the guy to piss on his boots, for that matter.

Now if we can just get them to fix Jubilee, I won't have to slow-roast their soul's internal organs over a fire when they die...

[Lurkmoar]

Oh, good to hear. Glad that didn't last long.

Not least because four-asterisk-head Daken doesn't deserve to be have the honour being the guy who killed him. Or even be the guy to piss on his boots, for that matter.

Now if we can just get them to fix Jubilee, I won't have to slow-roast their soul's internal organs over a fire when they die...

It's comics. Did you really think that they would still have Frankencastle? (Well, maybe some alternative universe Punisher if the book was selling well, but what's the point of Frankencastle if we already have Deathlok who isn't being used?)

As for Jubilee, who knows.

And back to the topic, has the super hero been outed? Was this before the US President commented he was for gay marriage?

[Yora]

{Scrubbed}

[Axolotl]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}Nothing that another writer has come along later to do badly.

[Yora]

{Scrubbed}

[Soras Teva Gee]

Explanation that she doesn't want special treatment rest of the world won't get worked pretty well for years. And honestly? With all people who do have some cybernetics or other things in DC you would have to be crazier than a man forced to watch Reb Brown movies for weeks without a break to even consider getting this "amazing treatment". Roy Harper? Cybernetic drowe him into drugs and murder. Metallo? Driven insane by his robot body. Cyborg? His life is terribly miserable because of his robot body? Damian Wayne? New spine turned him into a puppet in plan to kill Batman. Lazarus Pit? Drives you crazy.

Cyborg is miserable? Also Roy clearly has his arm to blame and not the whole stupid writing about heroin and his daughters senseless death. And all that opposed to Steel who classically has armor he can take off and at one point show inclination to build more. And MANY more across the way at Marvel.

I said exoskeleton for a reason. You don't have to go whole hog and repair the damage entirely but there are plenty of more advanced options other then a generic wheelchair around. And many of them while not exactly everyday are things that in the DCU at least are there.

And really "well its not available to everyone" well I dare say that simply as a wealthy resident of the USA its not like Barbara doesn't have options for care and treatment that aren't availible to a large portion of the population of Earth to begin with. So that's all a relative thing in my book. For my money if you are so lucky to be a superhero with lots of superhero friend, heck yes you go after whatever you can find and then once there's proof of concept you become a leading advocate to make said treatment available to all.


That, and Batman books generally are set on lower technological level than rest of DC, more "realistic" and it's tone crashes with the tone of everything else and in Bat-books all that amazing science is to cause problems, nto to help. If you want realism then the only logical way to get it is to separate Gotham and Batman from rest of DCU, not make popular character abbandon her own ideals.

Yeah here's the thing, Oracle is not really a Bat Family character, she is a DCU character. And Oracle as a net-based information specialist is one of the few character that since her inception has only been more relevant as technology invades our lives. (Some silliness aside, no Grant Morrison you can't kill the internet to stop an email)

As Batgirl Barbara Gordon protected Gotham City. As Oracle she was a member of the Justice League, ran her own team, and was a go to character that could support any DCU character. In other words she protected the entire world.

This is what bothers me, given that Batgirl has had not one but two replacements since Barbara. And frankly as Cassandra Cain for one could outfight the rest of the Bat Family (possibly together) its hard to argue they weren't doing a good job. Meanwhile Barbara Gordon got to be one of the relatively few characters in comics to truly grow up and move on to a bigger role then punching out punks in a back alley. So even getting her legs back, going back to Batgirl is a total retrograde action for the character.

[Maxios]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Yes, just not recently. This current era of comics, at least for Marvel and DC, is horrible.

For instance:
The Spider-Man comic Stan Lee wrote about drugs
The Green Arrow/Green Lantern comic about Speedy becoming an addict
The Green Arrow/Green Lantern comic about racism

[Aotrs Commander]

Yes, just not recently. This current era of comics, at least for Marvel and DC, is horrible.

I gave up on DC when the reboot came out (and I only read Teen Titans for a couple of years)... Marvel I've had a lot more time with (X-Men anyway) and I started in the 90's. I do have to say, I think the quality has dropped a lot in the last few years, when the cavalcade of meaningless character deaths started up. There was a point I was within spitting distance of quitting altogether - and then they had a good run of stuff (this age of heroes gubbins) and I thought, "okay, this is cool! And hey, Jubilee is back, even if she's a fracking vampire, but it's better than nowt."

I'm beginning to have second thoughts again, though...

[HandofShadows]

The Spider-Man comic Stan Lee wrote about drugs

And that was done way back 1971 (and at the request of the US Department of Health, Education and Welfare. Props to them as well on this) and was a major violation of the Comics Code. So he published without it. A note about Northstar and his coming out. Marvel didn't do anything special for that issue. They didn't really annouce anything, I don't even think they printed extra issues. It was all done matter of factly. (IIRC the Marvel staffers where quite surprised by the reaction as well).

But these days. :(

[Man on Fire]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Animal Man - Morrison's series has a lot of well-handled animal-rights topics.
Spider-Man - San Lee's drugs story, JMS run had several well-handled topics, like homeless children or bullying, then there are some of short stories with Spidey, also pretty good.
X-Factor touches many serious topics and does it well, including homesexualism
Punisher can touch seriosu topics very srongly, Slavers was very well-informed and remains one of the saddest superhero stories ever written.
Alias had many serious topics, so did Bendis' run on Daredevil. Daredevil: Redempion was good in that matter to, speaking of the character.
Pretty sure Gotham Central has some.
Even pretty bad JMS run on Superman has handled issue of child abuse pretty well.

[ThePhantasm]

The website Bleeding Cool is claiming, based on sources in the know, that it might be Alan Scott.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The website Bleeding Cool is claiming, based on sources in the know, that it might be Alan Scott.

Well they can claim "iconic" since he's got a Golden Age pedigree but isn't too public. Still... he is famously a father of Jade and Obsidian, not that that's a true bar but its still there.

(Because as everyone knows there are no bisexuals, its just a binary switch that goes one way or another forever and ever)

[Tyndmyr]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Sure. It's just that there's a LOT of crap, and the older stuff is not at all helped in realism/quality by the existence of the comic code. Got all kinds of wacky "morals" bound up with chars that probably did little to help anything.

There are certainly good tales, but you've got to search for them amid the mounds of retellings of the same old story for more money, blatant publicity grabs for more money, and utter drek that really has no excuse at all.

Batman: The Widening Gyre wasn't bad, and I'm a fan of Irredeemable(admittedly, not DC/Marvel). Watchman's also pretty good, and the walking dead comics are solid(ignore the show and video game. Both suck). Also, Pratchett had a graphic novel done of the first coupla books, and it's quite solid.

[TheEmerged]

Well they can claim "iconic" since he's got a Golden Age pedigree but isn't too public. Still... he is famously a father of Jade and Obsidian, not that that's a true bar but its still there.)

/starting to feel like a broken record
In... the previous continuity. DC just restarted the JSA/Earth-2. They're rebooting the JSA characters as new heroes that come *after* the Superman/Wonder Woman/Crazy Guy In Bat-suit trinity. Just about all we know about Alan Scot right now is that he's a newsman.

It's worth mentioning that in said previous continuity Alan's son Obsidian was retconned into being homosexual.

[Yora]

Batman: The Widening Gyre wasn't bad, and I'm a fan of Irredeemable(admittedly, not DC/Marvel). Watchman's also pretty good, and the walking dead comics are solid(ignore the show and video game. Both suck). Also, Pratchett had a graphic novel done of the first coupla books, and it's quite solid.
Does watchmen count? Yes, they have the same silly costumes, but from what I've heard it's not about people doing nothing over 20 pages for 50 years.

[Axolotl]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}People like them because they're entertaining. I mean sure there's alot of dross but it's worth it for just how good the good stuff is.

[Soras Teva Gee]

/starting to feel like a broken record
In... the previous continuity. DC just restrated the JSA/Earth-2. They're rebooting the JSA characters as new heroes that come *after* the Superman/Wonder Woman/Crazy Guy In Bat-suit trinity. Just about all we know about Alan Scot right now is that he's a newsman.

It's worth mentioning that in said previous continuity Alan's son Obsidian was retconned into being homosexual.

I'm perfectly aware that the reboot cancels everything, and hey DC can expose Supes to Pink Kryptonite but its not very likely.

Now is in theory 'needing' to father Jade and Obsidian a concern for DC editorial or not? I can't say I'm just raising it.

[Man on Fire]

I just remembered, Obsidian is gay, right? Wouldn;t it be kinda, I don't know, counteproductive to erase a gay character only to make hsi father gay?


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I feel insulted by this. Superheroes can be handled well and there are many comics that are entertaining and well written. On top of that, superheroes are inspiring - they are reflection of us, only us being able to stand up to the injustice. For me they were always inspiration to do better and try to make the world better, inconviniences be damned. Nobody tells you to like them, but I would appricate not implying there is something wrong with people who like them, only because you don't get them. It's okay to like different things, but you don't see me telling MLP fans they're stupid only because I don't like the show.

[Gnoman]

Honestly, as far as "stunts" go, I thought that was a decent one. Sure, he came back, but it did give us an interesting look at what a world without Superman would be like.

The problem, of course, came when that sort of thing got overused and it lacked the emotional punch and perspective that the original did.

Yeah. Both the Death of Superman and KnightFall (Where Bane broke Batman's back) arcs did an excellent job of tearing down the characters, analyzing their philosophical components, and really showing who they were. I really don't understand the hate those particular storylines get.

[Dienekes]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

For the same reason that we read Sherlock Holmes books, Conan, or watch Soap Operas.

There are what I refer to as hard endings and soft endings. Hard Endings are like Watchmen, or Return of the King, or most fiction really. The story had it's arc and it finished. You can put the book down satisfied that what you have read had a beginning, a middle, and an end that fit nicely into the time you wished to be entertained by that particular series.

Comics are like reading a Sherlock Holmes book. There is always room for another Sherlock Holmes book. Even after he died there was room for another Sherlock Holmes book. Quite a lot of room as it turned out. We don't read comics to see a heroes journey that finishes so we can start up another. We read comics because something about them makes us keep wanting another adventure with a close, dear, friend of ours.

So yeah, I know Batman won't stay dead. But isn't it cool to see what the DC world would be like if he died? Isn't it heartbreaking to read his last goodbye to Alfred? Isn't it damn trippy to see what he faces in the afterlife? And as long as the adventures stay fun, and the writing isn't too terrible, and I still love these characters, yeah I'll pop my head in from time to time to see how they're all doing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah. Both the Death of Superman and KnightFall (Where Bane broke Batman's back) arcs did an excellent job of tearing down the characters, analyzing their philosophical components, and really showing who they were. I really don't understand the hate those particular storylines get.

I know at least for the Death of Superman it was always the plan that he would come back and so its less a stunt then an extended story.

[Man on Fire]

Yeah. Both the Death of Superman and KnightFall (Where Bane broke Batman's back) arcs did an excellent job of tearing down the characters, analyzing their philosophical components, and really showing who they were. I really don't understand the hate those particular storylines get.

They happened in the nineties. Fandom is full of silver-age nostalgic people for whose everything published in the nineties needs to be burned in forgotten (while in reality, nineties had many good comics, it's just that manure was getting more spotlight)

[Zevox]

Well they can claim "iconic" since he's got a Golden Age pedigree but isn't too public. Still... he is famously a father of Jade and Obsidian, not that that's a true bar but its still there.
Yeah, that might be a bit of an issue. Erasing a couple of other superhero characters in order to make a comparably obscure one (while he was technically the first Green Lantern he's unrelated to the space cop ones, and it's those that have become the iconic version of that character type) gay would probably not be a great call. Though I suppose they could always retcon Jade and Obsidian's parentage as well if they want to.

Zevox

[TheEmerged]

Or, you know, not have Jade and Obsidian be his kids because he's, you know, not even technically a super hero right now continuity-wise. He's still just a newsman.

Or just not have Jade & Obsidian yet, period, because we shouldn't have Infinity Inc when we haven't had a JSA yet.

[Zevox]

Or, you know, not have Jade and Obsidian be his kids because he's, you know, not even technically a super hero right now continuity-wise. He's still just a newsman.
I said that, you realize.

Though I suppose they could always retcon Jade and Obsidian's parentage as well if they want to.
Zevox

[Tyndmyr]

Does watchmen count? Yes, they have the same silly costumes, but from what I've heard it's not about people doing nothing over 20 pages for 50 years.

They're very different from standard superheroes in style, and to be honest, so are most of the others listed. Irredeemable is basically what would happen if DC-styled superpowers existed in the real world. For instance...superman's superhearing results in always, constantly, hearing the screams of everyone he didn't save, and exploring the consequences of such powers. The storyline is pretty much nothing like a traditional comic.

Likewise, Walking Dead gleefully kills off main chars, and is...not really superhero-based at all. Pratchett couldn't be further from DC/Marvel.

Widening Gyre is more standard, but it's still an inclusive story, with distinctive ending and the like...ditto another excellent option, Kingdom Come.

In short, I love the graphic novel format for telling a wonderful story. I have no love whatsoever for "yet another episode of the same old meaningless crap". I kind of hate all the continuity reboots. I do not need to read another marginally different origin story for superman or whatever.

[Man on Fire]

They're very different from standard superheroes in style, and to be honest, so are most of the others listed. Irredeemable is basically what would happen if DC-styled superpowers existed in the real world. For instance...superman's superhearing results in always, constantly, hearing the screams of everyone he didn't save, and exploring the consequences of such powers. The storyline is pretty much nothing like a traditional comic.

Still, it doesn't change the fact that they are superhero comics. Black Company does things very differently from Eragorn. Doesn't change the fact that they both are fantasy. If we will scratch out every comics that doesn't fit very narrowed definition then we will be left with nothing but the most generic manure.

Oh, and another comics that did handled serious topics well - original Suicide Squad. Man, this thing has some pretty sweet issues.

[Ravens_cry]

They happened in the nineties. Fandom is full of silver-age nostalgic people for whose everything published in the nineties needs to be burned in forgotten (while in reality, nineties had many good comics, it's just that manure was getting more spotlight)
I think it is more the nature of the manure.
Silver Age may have been patently ridiculous, but at least its heroes were heroic.
Iron Age tried to be mature, but ended up merely 'adult'.

[Axolotl]

They happened in the nineties. Fandom is full of silver-age nostalgic people for whose everything published in the nineties needs to be burned in forgotten (while in reality, nineties had many good comics, it's just that manure was getting more spotlight)I never really got that, I mean I get that Liefeld and his crew sucked but overall I think the nineties were probably the best decade for American comics ever. But for some reason everyone seems to hate it.

[Man on Fire]

I think it is more the nature of the manure.
Silver Age may have been patently ridiculous, but at least its heroes were heroic.
Iron Age tried to be mature, but ended up merely 'adult'.

Manure is still manure. It doesn't matter if the story is about murderous bastards who calls themselves heroes, that makes you feel disgust or about completely idiotic plot of Lois Lane to make Superman marry her, that makes you feel dumber by every page, bad story is still a bad story.


I never really got that, I mean I get that Liefeld and his crew sucked but overall I think the nineties were probably the best decade for American comics ever. But for some reason everyone seems to hate it.

I wouldn't call it the best, it was the time when Marvel almost bancrupted and Comics Crash happened, but there was a lot of good stuff published then.

[Ravens_cry]

Manure is still manure. It doesn't matter if the story is about murderous bastards who calls themselves heroes, that makes you feel disgust or about completely idiotic plot of Lois Lane to make Superman marry her, that makes you feel dumber by every page, bad story is still a bad story.

Of course, but you seem to forget there was something between the Silver Age and the Dark Age, the Bronze Age where comics, however clumsily many attempts may have been, tried to be more socially aware.
Personally, I prefer some silliness and joy to "Grrr, we be so grown up, look at all the blood and boobs!"
As C.S. Lewis put it well, "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

[Man on Fire]

Of course, but you seem to forget there was something between the Silver Age and the Dark Age, the Bronze Age where comics, however clumsily many attempts may have been, tried to be more socially aware.
Personally, I prefer some silliness and joy to "Grrr, we be so grown up, look at all the blood and boobs!"
As C.S. Lewis put it well, "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."

You don't have to tell me any of that, Bronze Age had some of the best stuff and I see where you're coming from with that silly thing, but, as I said, for me it doesn't matter if the story is silly or dark, as long as it's good. I love Nextwave and I love Black Summer and a lot of stuff from both ends of the scale. And I do understand why people dislike some of bad dark stories, like whatever Mark Millar is doing right now, but I won't say that Ultimatum is automatically worse than, I don't know, Marville, just because it's dark and brutal murder fest while Marville is a comedy. What I really have an issue with are people who thinks that tone may decide of the quality and it is this false dichotomy that prevails in fandom - you either like funny stories and hate dark ones or vice-versa, that's just bullmanure. For me the only important thing is quality. You just see me going in defense of dark stories more often because that part of fandom who hates them is much more vocal.

[Axolotl]

I wouldn't call it the best, it was the time when Marvel almost bancrupted and Comics Crash happened, but there was a lot of good stuff published then.It not just alot of good stuff, most of the really great comics like Sandman, Invisibles and Transmetropolitan had most of their runs or their start in the 90's.

[TheEmerged]

Zevox - they don't need to retcon their parentage.

Unless they've appeared in one of the books I'm not reading (certainly a possibility), they don't exist right now in the new continuity.

I didn't mean it as a snark if it came across that way. I was just saying it's not even going to require a retcon.

[Zevox]

Zevox - they don't need to retcon their parentage.

Unless they've appeared in one of the books I'm not reading (certainly a possibility), they don't exist right now in the new continuity.

I didn't mean it as a snark if it came across that way. I was just saying it's not even going to require a retcon.
I was using "retcon" to refer to changes made due to the reboot. Since a reboot is just one massive retcon itself and all. So basically, we're referring to the same thing, just using different terms.

Zevox

[Ravens_cry]

It not just alot of good stuff, most of the really great comics like Sandman, Invisibles and Transmetropolitan had most of their runs or their start in the 90's.
Does Sandman count as a 'superhero' comic? It's more surreal fantasy, though there has been occasional crossovers with more conventional series. I haven't read either the Invisibles or Transmetropolitan, but they also don't seem like the typical Dark Ages offerings from what I have read on them.

[Man on Fire]

Does Sandman count as a 'superhero' comic? It's more surreal fantasy, though there has been occasional crossovers with more conventional series. I haven't read either the Invisibles or Transmetropolitan, but they also don't seem like the typical Dark Ages offerings from what I have read on them.

Invisibles and Transmetropolitan are hardly superhero and Sandman is...Sandman. He is really only counted into superhero by his relation to the name and making cameos here and there. However, I think his point was rather that there were good comics published during dark age so it was good time for comics in general

Lets run some good superhero comics from the 90s:

Peter David's runs on Hulk, Aquaman, Supergirl and Young Justice
The Infinity Gauntlet
Spider-Man: Death of Jean DeWolff
Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man and Spawn
Thunderbolts
Joe Kelly's Deadpool
Aztek
Morrison's JLA, most of his Doom Patrol, Flex Mentallo and with Millar Aztek and Flash and Swamp Thing
Mark Waid's Flash, Kingdom Come, Impluse, Legion of Superheroes, Underworld Unleashed
Warren Ellis' Stormwatch and The Authority. Planetary one of the best comics I ever read, started in 1999
Mike Mingola's Hellboy
Frank Miller's Batman: Year One
Alan Moore's Supreme, Youngblood: Judgment Day
James Robbinson's Starman
Age of Apocalypse
Knightfall
Death of Superman

[Ravens_cry]

It must have taken some doing for even Alan Moore to make Youngblood *shudder* good.

[Man on Fire]

It must have taken some doing for even Alan Moore to make Youngblood *shudder* good.

It's a pretty enjoyable story, Moore later tried to turn Youngblood into his own version of Teen Titans, but Liefield's company bancrupted before he could write more than few issues.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It must have taken some doing for even Alan Moore to make Youngblood *shudder* good.

Are you doubting the powers of the All-Beard?

[Man on Fire]

Are you doubting the powers of the All-Beard?

Remember that nobody is perfect - even Alan Moore had written some weaker comics (Violator vs Badrock anyone?).

[Soras Teva Gee]

Remember that nobody is perfect - even Alan Moore had written some weaker comics (Violator vs Badrock anyone?).

Well I've read Lost Girls and even that level of writing would be major improvement for Youngblood

[Axolotl]

Well I've read Lost Girls and even that level of writing would be major improvement for YoungbloodModern day Frank Miller would be an improvement for early Youngblood.

In fact any attempt to just write a story as a story instead of just something to tie together group shots and splash panels would be an improvement.

[Man on Fire]

I heard that Joe Casey has decent run on Younblood some time ago. On the other hand, right after he left, first thing Liefeld did was this:


http://afghanant.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/yb09p19.jpg

[Maxios]

...is that who I think it is :eek:?

[Man on Fire]

...is that who I think it is :eek:?

If you're thinking about somebody whose name starts with "Barack" and ends with "Obama", then yes.

[Ravens_cry]

If you're thinking about somebody whose name starts with "Barack" and ends with "Obama", then yes.
Really? He looks nothing like him. Sure, he's black with short hair, but the present POTUS looks nothing like that.
Of course, it's Liefeld, the man can't draw Bart Simpson right.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Modern day Frank Miller would be an improvement for early Youngblood.

In fact any attempt to just write a story as a story instead of just something to tie together group shots and splash panels would be an improvement.

Careful you are dangerously close to the the ultimate nightmare. For it said that when the upper races gather to tell ghost stories you can hear if you are lucky the most horrible tale in all the multiverse. Deep within the Silver City there is a vault locked by the Living Tribunal himself drawing on all the powers of Source. None know for sure what is inside but it is said that Galactus fears it more then hunger and the Phantom Stranger prays his wandering will end an eternity before it sees the light of day. Once when the universe was young the Guardians of the Universe managed an expedition that is said to have drawn near the vault, afterward all record of it was burned from the pages of the Book of Oa with the Ultimate Nullifier. Still fragments of fragments of its knowledge can be found if you are foolish enough to work.

Seeking them can turn a halfway decent writer into a talentless hack. They have created Red Hulk, Emoboy Prime, Superman Red and Blue, and that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie have a fragment of the horror inside them. One fragment turned Jeph Loeb from an almost decent writer to a talentless hack. A bad Chaos spell exsposed Grant Morrison to one and led him to conclude Magneto was a "mad old terrorist ****" thus birthing Xorneto. It is why Stan Lee is a household name and Jack Kirby is not, why Superman's rights were sold for a $130. It is why Joe Quesada gets promoted. The truth though is more horrible then all of this:


In a time no one is quite sure, it has been wiped from time by the upper powers, but some say the darkest pit of the 90s others say it timing must match that of One More Day and was the sole reason that evil was allowed so that not none would suspect a worse.

Yet in this place removed from time and space Rob Liefeld and Frank Miller met in a dirty hotel-room above a con in some lesser city. One might suppose they were drunk but it is said they were stone sober. They set out to produce the worst comic ever, and things went horribly right.

This nameless comic is so horrible it is beyond good and evil, hope and despair, life and anti-life.... the Anti-Story.

None are quite sure if this is what drove Miller mad or arose from it. Liefeld seemed not the worse for wear at least though it is hard to tell. Some say the comic is drawn upon the the skin of a demon and inked in the blood of a dead fertility god. Others say it is just a script written on a hotel towel and preliminary art drawn on napkins. None say it is colored for the attempt killed all who tried.

Whatever its form the horror that was unleashed transcended its form striking all the planes and realities. Should this nameless comic ever be released it shall become a self-assembling hyper-text, it will be published and it will be sold. And it will sell well. Yet it will not remain one horrific story, for after it is sold then all of Story will begin to die, consumed in a black abyss from which there can be no escape. For attached to the text is a mandatory contract that only deepens the horror....

... its a movie deal. Jon Peters will produce, Michael Bay and Joel Schumacher are named as co-directors. Budget will be unlimited. It cannot be stopped.

[Man on Fire]

Careful you are dangerously close to the the ultimate nightmare. For it said that when the upper races gather to tell ghost stories you can hear if you are lucky the most horrible tale in all the multiverse. Deep within the Silver City there is a vault locked by the Living Tribunal himself drawing on all the powers of Source. None know for sure what is inside but it is said that Galactus fears it more then hunger and the Phantom Stranger prays his wandering will end an eternity before it sees the light of day. Once when the universe was young the Guardians of the Universe managed an expedition that is said to have drawn near the vault, afterward all record of it was burned from the pages of the Book of Oa with the Ultimate Nullifier. Still fragments of fragments of its knowledge can be found if you are foolish enough to work.

Seeking them can turn a halfway decent writer into a talentless hack. They have created Red Hulk, Emoboy Prime, Superman Red and Blue, and that League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie have a fragment of the horror inside them. One fragment turned Jeph Loeb from an almost decent writer to a talentless hack. A bad Chaos spell exsposed Grant Morrison to one and led him to conclude Magneto was a "mad old terrorist ****" thus birthing Xorneto. It is why Stan Lee is a household name and Jack Kirby is not, why Superman's rights were sold for a $130. It is why Joe Quesada gets promoted. The truth though is more horrible then all of this:


In a time no one is quite sure, it has been wiped from time by the upper powers, but some say the darkest pit of the 90s others say it timing must match that of One More Day and was the sole reason that evil was allowed so that not none would suspect a worse.

Yet in this place removed from time and space Rob Liefeld and Frank Miller met in a dirty hotel-room above a con in some lesser city. One might suppose they were drunk but it is said they were stone sober. They set out to produce the worst comic ever, and things went horribly right.

This nameless comic is so horrible it is beyond good and evil, hope and despair, life and anti-life.... the Anti-Story.

None are quite sure if this is what drove Miller mad or arose from it. Liefeld seemed not the worse for wear at least though it is hard to tell. Some say the comic is drawn upon the the skin of a demon and inked in the blood of a dead fertility god. Others say it is just a script written on a hotel towel and preliminary art drawn on napkins. None say it is colored for the attempt killed all who tried.

Whatever its form the horror that was unleashed transcended its form striking all the planes and realities. Should this nameless comic ever be released it shall become a self-assembling hyper-text, it will be published and it will be sold. And it will sell well. Yet it will not remain one horrific story, for after it is sold then all of Story will begin to die, consumed in a black abyss from which there can be no escape. For attached to the text is a mandatory contract that only deepens the horror....

... its a movie deal. Jon Peters will produce, Michael Bay and Joel Schumacher are named as co-directors. Budget will be unlimited. It cannot be stopped.

But fear not. For the ascended Jack Kirby is watching over us and his agents, exposed to the secret beauty of the Source. They have the power to make the good, to give us entertaininment and inspiration. To take even the dumber, most idiotic ideas ever, like Red Hulk, Flash Thompson as Venom or incorporating Wildtorm into DCU, and turn it to glory. Lead by their great, golden champions, those brave men and women walk ahead, looking in the future full of good comics, ready to fight the insanity of Anti-Story with the power all the power they have. Master Of Dreams, Neil Gaiman. Creator Of Words, Joss Whedon. He Who Puts Fun in DisFUNctional, Peter David. Lone Wolf Robert Kirkman. Masters Of The Stars, DnA. He Who Gave Us The Devil, Mike Carey. Man Who Can Write Women, Greg Rucka. He Who Wants A Jetpack, Warren Ellis. And many others. Even if some of them sometimes balance between the sides of good or bad, not always keeping dark powers they're toying with in check, like the Irishman, Garth Ennis, whose other nickname cannot be told because of forum filter, but it involves word "horse" and synonym of a "rooster", or He Who Is Great Just Keep Him Out Of The Avengers, Brian Bendis, they still fight for the sake of stories. They are te writers. They give us stories.


Now somebody draw me these guys as Power Rangers.

[Asheram]

I heard that Joe Casey has decent run on Younblood some time ago. On the other hand, right after he left, first thing Liefeld did was this:


http://afghanant.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/yb09p19.jpg


How the hell did that gun swap get through the editor O.o That's just sloppy.
And where'd that painting... Gah!

[TheEmerged]

I think it was his Captain America issue #2 where he had a robot that was supposed to be stationary/unmoving essentially doing jumping jacks from one panel to the next...

[Tyndmyr]

Really? He looks nothing like him. Sure, he's black with short hair, but the present POTUS looks nothing like that.
Of course, it's Liefeld, the man can't draw Bart Simpson right.

In addition to that questionableness, I'm having trouble with what the hell is actually going on in those three panels. Is he pushing down the wooden case in the last panel? Where the hell did the picture in panel 2 come from? It's just confusing and terrible.

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention how the pool of blood appears to be shrinking back inside the agent's head between panel 1 and 3.

[leafman]

Is it sad that DC thinks revealing a character to be gay is a big deal when Marvel had a character (Northstar) propose to his boyfriend last week? I know Marvel hyped it a little, but come on, one of, if not the first gay marriages in (major) comics? Yeah, they can celebrate and hype it a bit.

[Axolotl]

Is it sad that DC thinks revealing a character to be gay is a big deal when Marvel had a character (Northstar) propose to his boyfriend last week? I know Marvel hyped it a little, but come on, one of, if not the first gay marriages in (major) comics? Yeah, they can celebrate and hype it a bit.Oh come on, DC had Apollo and Midnighter get married in 2002. It really isn't anything worth boasting about anymore.

[The Glyphstone]

Not to mention Archie Comics, though that might not be sufficiently major/mainstream.

[leafman]

Oh come on, DC had Apollo and Midnighter get married in 2002. It really isn't anything worth boasting about anymore.

Ah, I didn't know about that, a first for Marvel then. Still, it makes DC look pretty dumb, not edgy or hip with teens like they are trying to be. Glad I quit reading their comics before they did the reboot. :smallamused:

[industrious]

They didn't hype up the Apollo/Midnighter wedding, though, and it was from their Wildstorm imprint. Not their main universe.

They're hyping it up because it's an "iconic character," who's being retconned into being gay rather than one who was deliberately crafted to be "the token gay character."

Knowing how messed up DC has been this past year, I'm expecting them to mess it up. It'll be an "iconic character" who isn't really part of anything big, or be done so horrendously that it'll backfire.

[turkishproverb]

According to MSN, an established DC hero is "coming out"... (http://now.msn.com/entertainment/0520-dc-gay-character.aspx)

I just wanted to tap the psyche of the Playground to see who you all think it might be. I've been out of DC too long to have much of a guess myself.

DC character, not superhero. My money is on either Alan Scott or Jimmy Olsen.


:Yawn: Yet another stunt because the well of ideas is completely dry. You won't woo me back from Shonen Jump , Dark Horse and webcomics with such silliness -- only quality art will do that.

I completely lost interest in Marvel/DC comics in about 1989 because the characters never change. There is no character development, and all plots are reset. I much prefer Japanese storytelling, where there is character development and a beginning, middle, and end.

Publicity stunts aren't a substitute for skillful storytelling. Wake me up when they've got something interesting to say. Until then, stunts like killing superman or gay superheroes or that other comic outfit marrying Archie Andrews off afford me nothing but a moment's amusement. Certainly no reason to want to read comics that have been irrelevant to me since high school.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Marvel/DC has had a few good things in the meantime. Check out Young Justice, Impulse, or the old Batgirl ongoing for examples.


Could be Tim Drake.

Hear hear!

I still think Tim Drake is fairly probable.



Personally, I've thought Tim Drake was gay for a long time. The kid got the job of robin by figuring out secret identities. He did this because he obsessively watched Mister can't be named Grayson and Nightwing's movements, without wanting to be either an acrobat or superhero. Leaves a question of WHY he was watching so obsessively.

Between that and the MASSIVE amounts of Ho-yay they've given his character since the old young-justice comics, i just sort've assumed.

[industrious]

Personally, I've thought Tim Drake was gay for a long time. The kid got the job of robin by figuring out secret identities. He did this because he obsessively watched Mister can't be named Grayson and Nightwing's movements, without wanting to be either an acrobat or superhero. Leaves a question of WHY he was watching so obsessively.

Between that and the MASSIVE amounts of Ho-yay they've given his character since the old young-justice comics, i just sort've assumed.

Yes, but it hasn't been explicit. He's also had relationships with women, which makes it ambiguous enough that you can claim that this revelation would be "new."

[otakuryoga]

T
They're hyping it up because it's an "iconic character," who's being retconned into being gay rather than one who was deliberately crafted to be "the token gay character."

Knowing how messed up DC has been this past year, I'm expecting them to mess it up. It'll be an "iconic character" who isn't really part of anything big, or be done so horrendously that it'll backfire.

the thing is..."iconic" means different things to current/former readers and to the general public
and since this stunt is aimed at the general public to bring in new readers on the heels of the Prez declaring support for gay marriage....one would assume it is going to be a character the general population would consider an "icon"...that means Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, or (the easy way out) Wonder Woman
non readers would have a hard time naming heroes beyond those

is there any way its going to be among those 5? oh hellz no...unless........

crazy idea time
its the golden age flash(he is still around yes?)
turns out he has been in a committed closeted gay relationship for 50 years..he comes out when his longtime partner dies
TA-DAH! an "iconic" character is gay..but still a minor one since he isnt the current Flash..and he is now too old to be in the dating scene so that they need never deal with it again

[Zevox]

the thing is..."iconic" means different things to current/former readers and to the general public
and since this stunt is aimed at the general public to bring in new readers on the heels of the Prez declaring support for gay marriage....one would assume it is going to be a character the general population would consider an "icon"...that means Superman, Batman, Flash, Green Lantern, or (the easy way out) Wonder Woman
non readers would have a hard time naming heroes beyond those

is there any way its going to be among those 5? oh hellz no...unless........

crazy idea time
its the golden age flash(he is still around yes?)
turns out he has been in a committed closeted gay relationship for 50 years..he comes out when his longtime partner dies
TA-DAH! an "iconic" character is gay..but still a minor one since he isnt the current Flash..and he is now too old to be in the dating scene so that they need never deal with it again
Rumor mill has it that it's going to be the golden age Green Lantern, Allen Scott. Which would still not really be a true iconic character though, since the iconic Green Lanterns are the space cops, mostly Hal Jordan, and Allen Scott has nothing to do with them in spite of having near-identical powers and the same superhero name.

Theoretically they could do a genuinely iconic character by using Wally West, the Flash, since he's been missing since the reboot (the current Flash is Barry Allen, who had been dead for a couple of decades, long enough for Wally West to become just as iconic as his predecessor to many). Don't know whether they're willing to do that though.

Zevox

[TheEmerged]

Not the rumor mill anymore, it's officially Alan Scott. The panel is making rounds on websites this morning. Interestingly, the author says losing Obsidian as a character in the new continuity is why he chose Alan Scott.

I'd have been very surprised for it to be Tim Drake due to the whole "Seduction of the Innocent" bit (the anti-comics book that said Batman/Robin were gay back in the 50's).


crazy idea time
its the golden age flash(he is still around yes?)
turns out he has been in a committed closeted gay relationship for 50 years..he comes out when his longtime partner dies
TA-DAH! an "iconic" character is gay..but still a minor one since he isnt the current Flash..and he is now too old to be in the dating scene so that they need never deal with it again

/brokenrecord

Except for the part about being a 20-something guy who just broke up with his girlfriend because she thinks he's a nice loser and doesn't have his powers yet, I suppose. He'll probably have his powers as of panel #1 page #1 of issue 2, mind.

[Kansaschaser]

So, it was announced that Green Lantern from DC comics is gay. For some reason, that didn't surprise me. Years and years ago I saw a comic of the Guy Gardner Green Lantern and he always seemed to be gay to me.

Was anyone really blind sided by this news?

[Dark Elf Bard]

How did he "seem" to be gay? I never really thought about super heroes' sexuality.. Does it even matter?

[Traab]

Not really, and just as an fyi, there is already a topic on this in the media section. I just wish they hadnt made a big deal out of it. It would have made a better impression if it was just handled matter of factly.

[Elemental]

Which Green Lantern?

And no, a hero's sexuality doesn't matter.

[Kindablue]

Which Green Lantern?

Alan Scott. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/showbiz/green-lantern-gay-earth-two-rs/index.html)

[Thialfi]

Which Green Lantern?

And no, a hero's sexuality doesn't matter.

Well, the only green lantern I ever gave a damn about was Bruce Timm's John Stewart and that was in large part due to the love triangle story line he had going on.

[Whiffet]

So, it was announced that Green Lantern from DC comics is gay. For some reason, that didn't surprise me. Years and years ago I saw a comic of the Guy Gardner Green Lantern and he always seemed to be gay to me.

Guy Gardner? But the character who's gay now is Alan Scott. What does Guy Gardner have to do with anything? :smallconfused:

[Diva De]

My guess would have been Robin, but *shrug*. Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't have made a big deal about it. Just let it happen - don't make it a spectacle. That feels too much like waving your hand in the air and jumping up and down and saying, "LOOK AT ME!"

I think Marvel handles things better, in general. For instance, they didn't publicize when they made the hearing-impaired superhero BlueEar that they created for that little boy in New Jersey. They just DID it.

[willpell]

But I thought his powers didn't work on wood? (Badum-tish!)

[Kansaschaser]

Guy Gardner? But the character who's gay now is Alan Scott. What does Guy Gardner have to do with anything? :smallconfused:

Yes, I know it's Alan Scott. I was just saying that I saw a picture of Guy Gardner years ago and it made me think he was gay. So, it didn't really surprise me when they announced the current Green Lantern was gay.

[Dark Elf Bard]

But I thought his powers didn't work on wood? (Badum-tish!)

:confused: :eek: :yuk:

[Zevox]

Interestingly, the author says losing Obsidian as a character in the new continuity is why he chose Alan Scott.
Well that's a shame. I just recently saw him for the first time, reading 52, and I'd kinda like to see more of him.

It also probably means they're dropping Jade as a character as well. Which is very confusing since the space cop Green Lanterns' continuity is supposed to have been unaffected by the reboot and she was Kyle Rayner's girlfriend for a while, whom he still had feelings for at least as recently as Blackest Night.

Zevox

[willpell]

Yes, I know it's Alan Scott. I was just saying that I saw a picture of Guy Gardner years ago and it made me think he was gay. So, it didn't really surprise me when they announced the current Green Lantern was gay.

Alan Scott is far from "current"...he was the original Green Lantern, the only one whose ring is magic instead of alien technology. Also the only one who has almost no green in his costume. (See also the Blue Rajah.)

[Whiffet]

Yes, I know it's Alan Scott. I was just saying that I saw a picture of Guy Gardner years ago and it made me think he was gay. So, it didn't really surprise me when they announced the current Green Lantern was gay.

Okay, first of all, they're two separate characters. Your thoughts on the sexuality of one have no effect on the sexuality of another. Secondly, Alan Scott is the original Green Lantern, brought into the new DCU through Earth 2, which is a parallel world to the regular DC world. That's a little different than "the current Green Lantern."

[Zevox]

Yes, I know it's Alan Scott. I was just saying that I saw a picture of Guy Gardner years ago and it made me think he was gay. So, it didn't really surprise me when they announced the current Green Lantern was gay.
Um, Alan Scott isn't the "current" Green Lantern. He's the golden age version, unaffiliated with the space cops, and from what I hear post-reboot he's in an alternate universe from the main DCU, Earth-2. The current Green Lanterns of Earth's space sector in the main universe are John Stewart, Guy Gardener, Kyle Rayner, and Sinestro.

Also, Guy Gardener is the only Earth GL who has been able to maintain a steady romantic relationship with someone, the superherione Ice. Or at least he was before the reboot, I'm not sure whether that relationship survived the reboot given that even though Guy was immune to changes from that, Ice was not.

Zevox

[irenicObserver]

So, it was announced that Green Lantern from DC comics is gay. For some reason, that didn't surprise me. Years and years ago I saw a comic of the Guy Gardner Green Lantern and he always seemed to be gay to me.

Was anyone really blind sided by this news?

Not to sound accusatory but that sounds like hindsight bias to me. I don't really know of Guy Gardner (I know his personality) but the idea of someone seeming gay isn't really tangible evidence.

[Morph Bark]

Alan Scott. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/showbiz/green-lantern-gay-earth-two-rs/index.html)

I looked at the picture and at the caption and lol'd.

On Earth Two, this is how gay men are born into the world. Fully grown and surrounded by green fire.

[Zevox]

I looked at the picture and at the caption and lol'd.

On Earth Two, this is how gay men are born into the world. Fully grown and surrounded by green fire.
:smallconfused: Oddly, that doesn't look like a picture of Alan Scott. It looks like Hal Jordan did when he was possessed by Parallax.

Zevox

[Kindablue]

Oh, yeah. I almost forgot to post this.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2011/05/slashpointbig.jpg
"In our first issue, Barry Allen has to confront a world in which he and Iris West were never married -- and in which he and Hal "Green Lantern" Jordan formed a relationship that was far more brave and bold than he remembers! It's a whirlwind tour to find out where he is that guest stars Blue Beetle and Booster Gold, Tim Drake and Conner Kent, Renee Montoya and Kate Kane, Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy, and all set to the rocking solos of Guns 'n' Roses most notable guitarist!

Will Barry be able to find his way back home? Will his molecular vibration powers be used for more than just crossing dimensional barriers? And who is the mastermind behind the machinations, the mysterious OTP?! Find out in "Yaoi Zowie," the first chapter of this summer's epic crossover and the first DC comic to ever be published directly to LiveJournal and Tumblr!"

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/05/23/slashpoint-flashpoint/

[Man on Fire]

:smallconfused: Oddly, that doesn't look like a picture of Alan Scott. It looks like Hal Jordan did when he was possessed by Parallax.


Because it it's him.

[industrious]

Posting this (http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/06/dc_has_given_alan_scott_the_gay_but_hes_on_earth-2.php) article about DC's hype. It really has been overhyped a great deal.

[Traab]

Posting this (http://www.toplessrobot.com/2012/06/dc_has_given_alan_scott_the_gay_but_hes_on_earth-2.php) article about DC's hype. It really has been overhyped a great deal.

That article had it dead on. With all the hype about iconic characters, I would have expected to see batman or superman or even wonder woman be gay, but this? It isnt even main dc universe.

[otakuryoga]

as foreseen..
they use an "iconic" character that really isn't since it isnt the current iteration of that character

[Zevox]

as foreseen..
they use an "iconic" character that really isn't since it isnt the current iteration of that character
It's not even that he's not "current," Alan Scott was never iconic. It's the space cop version of Green Lantern, specifically Hal Jordan, that made that character concept a major one for DC. Alan Scott just happens to have been the original that the space cops were based on. He shares a name and most of his powers with an actual iconic character, and that's it.

Zevox

[Man on Fire]

And the award for most offensive*, shameless, shallow marketing stun of the year goes to DC Comics. Your award is big pile of dog s***, you can eat it now.

*- I mean, no matter how I look at itI cannot imagine homosexuals not being offended by "Your iconinc gay character we promised you isn't really iconic and doesn't even live in the same Universe as anybody iconic, so it doesn't matter anyway" stun.

[Devonix]

*Slowclap*

Good job DC Remove one Gay character to instead de age his dad and make Him gay instead.


Instead of stories dealing with a person raised with different societal values having to come to terms with and accept a gay son who other than having a different sexual lifestyle, still wants to follow in his fathers footsteps.

They just do the "easier" story.


And the DC isn't more diverse by doing this. They haven't added a gay character, they've swapped

[Devonix]

No Obsidian and no Jade now...

Green lantern Mythos and DC at large has just gotten a bit less Epic.


Though to us JSA fans and Alan Scott is as Iconic as it gets. Him and Jay are the heart of the DCU or were for a lot or people.

Kyle had even proposed to Jade recently, something a lot of Green Lantern fans have been waiting years for... Effing Reboot!!!

[Zevox]

*Slowclap*

Good job DC Remove one Gay character to instead de age his dad and make Him gay instead.


Instead of stories dealing with a person raised with different societal values having to come to terms with and accept a gay son who other than having a different sexual lifestyle, still wants to follow in his fathers footsteps.

They just do the "easier" story.


And the DC isn't more diverse by doing this. They haven't added a gay character, they've swapped
Eeyup, sounds about right.


Though to us JSA fans and Alan Scott is as Iconic as it gets. Him and Jay are the heart of the DCU or were for a lot or people.
Well of course if you're a fan of the series he's from he's going to seem important, but take a step back for a minute there and think about what people mean when they say "iconic." They mean the big names that have infiltrated popular culture - Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, etc. Green Lantern is up there too, but the space cop version, mostly Hal Jordan and maybe arguably Kyle Rayner (John Stewart being the Justice League cartoon probably put him on the map a bit too, but definitely much less so than Hal). Can you honestly say you'd expect someone who doesn't read comics to have ever so much as heard of Alan Scott?


Kyle had even proposed to Jade recently, something a lot of Green Lantern fans have been waiting years for... Effing Reboot!!!
:smallconfused: Er, when was this? Because it wasn't in any of the Green Lantern comics I've read, and I'm caught up from the Sinestro Corps War through the War of the Green Lanterns, plus just got my copy of the first of the New 52 arcs. Last I saw he had moved on from her and seemed pretty happy with Soranik Natu. There was a little tension right after her resurrection, but Jade pretty much gave them her blessing and that was that.

Zevox

[turkishproverb]

Well, not the character I would have chosen, but I see the logic. Could be fun.

[Devonix]

Eeyup, sounds about right.


Well of course if you're a fan of the series he's from he's going to seem important, but take a step back for a minute there and think about what people mean when they say "iconic." They mean the big names that have infiltrated popular culture - Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, etc. Green Lantern is up there too, but the space cop version, mostly Hal Jordan and maybe arguably Kyle Rayner (John Stewart being the Justice League cartoon probably put him on the map a bit too, but definitely much less so than Hal). Can you honestly say you'd expect someone who doesn't read comics to have ever so much as heard of Alan Scott?


:smallconfused: Er, when was this? Because it wasn't in any of the Green Lantern comics I've read, and I'm caught up from the Sinestro Corps War through the War of the Green Lanterns, plus just got my copy of the first of the New 52 arcs. Last I saw he had moved on from her and seemed pretty happy with Soranik Natu. There was a little tension right after her resurrection, but Jade pretty much gave them her blessing and that was that.

Zevox

the Proposal happened in one of the GL double sized specials right around the time there was the story with Alan and that magic city being under attack. Even had this real nice scene with Alan and Kyle hanging out and training. Jade turned him down saying that it was too soon but that when they were both ready mabey.

[Devonix]

Eeyup, sounds about right.


Well of course if you're a fan of the series he's from he's going to seem important, but take a step back for a minute there and think about what people mean when they say "iconic." They mean the big names that have infiltrated popular culture - Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, etc. Green Lantern is up there too, but the space cop version, mostly Hal Jordan and maybe arguably Kyle Rayner (John Stewart being the Justice League cartoon probably put him on the map a bit too, but definitely much less so than Hal). Can you honestly say you'd expect someone who doesn't read comics to have ever so much as heard of Alan Scott?


:smallconfused: Er, when was this? Because it wasn't in any of the Green Lantern comics I've read, and I'm caught up from the Sinestro Corps War through the War of the Green Lanterns, plus just got my copy of the first of the New 52 arcs. Last I saw he had moved on from her and seemed pretty happy with Soranik Natu. There was a little tension right after her resurrection, but Jade pretty much gave them her blessing and that was that.

Zevox

the Proposal happened in one of the GL double sized specials right around the time there was the story with Alan and that magic city being under attack. Even had this real nice scene with Alan and Kyle hanging out and training. Jade turned him down saying that it was too soon but that when they were both ready mabey.

[Zevox]

the Proposal happened in one of the GL double sized specials right around the time there was the story with Alan and that magic city being under attack. Even had this real nice scene with Alan and Kyle hanging out and training. Jade turned him down saying that it was too soon but that when they were both ready mabey.
:smallconfused: Yeah, since with rare exceptions I don't read anything but the main Green Lantern comics, that doesn't really help me. In the context of the Green Lantern storyline, when would this be? Because like I said, it doesn't add up at all given what I saw in there, which makes me think it wasn't actually recent.

Zevox

[Devonix]

:smallconfused: Yeah, since with rare exceptions I don't read anything but the main Green Lantern comics, that doesn't really help me. In the context of the Green Lantern storyline, when would this be? Because like I said, it doesn't add up at all given what I saw in there, which makes me think it wasn't actually recent.

Zevox

It was the same issue Jade got her new Green Lantern ring Lol It was an old issue. I found it. for some reason I thought it was after Jade came back... Oops. Though up till the Reboot the star sapphires still saw Jade in his heart as well as him still thinking of her while bing with Sora... I'm probably projecting though:smallredface:

[TheEmerged]

A good take on the issue (http://www.the-gutters.com/comic/301-david-green), in my opinion.

Reminds me of something I heard said about the baseball player Jackie Robinson. That is, that the best moment of his career wasn't when he was the first black player in the major leagues. It was when, later on, a black player signed with a major league team and nobody noticed.

[willpell]

Basically what they're doing is hedging their bets. "We're turning one of our characters gay!!!111!!! But if you have a problem with that, don't worry; it's not like it's one of our MOST famous characters, just some old-timer nobody was paying that much attention to before, so it's not really a big deal! But hey, everyone else: It's a big deal!"

Really, the gay thing is barely news in comics anymore. What I'm waiting for is kinky characters in comics. I wanna see them admit that Batman is a sadist who gets off on beating up people he thinks deserve it, and so repressed he doesn't even admit he's enjoying it.

[Dienekes]

Really, the gay thing is barely news in comics anymore. What I'm waiting for is kinky characters in comics. I wanna see them admit that Batman is a sadist who gets off on beating up people he thinks deserve it, and so repressed he doesn't even admit he's enjoying it.

You must love Garth Ennis.

And no, that's a terrible idea.

[willpell]

You must love Garth Ennis.

"Love" is a strong word. He's a talented writer who tends toward subjects I find depressing and who takes far more joy in the vulgar than I'd prefer. I'd put him a grade below Warren Ellis, who in turn is a grade below Grant Morrison, who in turn is a grade below Alan Moore. (Neil Gaiman and Bill Willingham seem like they need to go on a second, parallel ladder.)


And no, that's a terrible idea.

The whole kinky idea or just the Batman part? I'll admit he's probably too well-established as a good-guy for this to ever stick, and that I'm mostly thinking of the gritty postmodern Batman who isn't really the same character as the original Caped Crusader.

[Traab]

Basically what they're doing is hedging their bets. "We're turning one of our characters gay!!!111!!! But if you have a problem with that, don't worry; it's not like it's one of our MOST famous characters, just some old-timer nobody was paying that much attention to before, so it's not really a big deal! But hey, everyone else: It's a big deal!"

Really, the gay thing is barely news in comics anymore. What I'm waiting for is kinky characters in comics. I wanna see them admit that Batman is a sadist who gets off on beating up people he thinks deserve it, and so repressed he doesn't even admit he's enjoying it.

You should really read this fanfic one shot here (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2565609/127/Odd_Ideas) You can get yer kinky bats that way.

[Dienekes]

The whole kinky idea or just the Batman part? I'll admit he's probably too well-established as a good-guy for this to ever stick, and that I'm mostly thinking of the gritty postmodern Batman who isn't really the same character as the original Caped Crusader.

I think it's a bad idea because no matter what version of Batman I feel like reading, the last thing I ever want to see is his "O" face as he's punching out the Joker.

[Man on Fire]

I think it's a bad idea because no matter what version of Batman I feel like reading, the last thing I ever want to see is his "O" face as he's punching out the Joker.

Bet there is at least one comics that drew him with that face.


Really, the gay thing is barely news in comics anymore. What I'm waiting for is kinky characters in comics. I wanna see them admit that Batman is a sadist who gets off on beating up people he thinks deserve it, and so repressed he doesn't even admit he's enjoying it.

Too bad it would completely destroy any drama Rogue has - once somebody introduces her to latex suits, her problems are over.

[Devonix]

Bet there is at least one comics that drew him with that face.



Too bad it would completely destroy any drama Rogue has - once somebody introduces her to latex suits, her problems are over.

Ehh Rogue never had any problems in the first place other than the writers making up stupid reasons for her to not be able to control her abilities when by every concieveable notion she should have been " Fixed " decades ago. Same thing goes for Scott.

Really with all of the alternatives available to these characters it allways bugged me that none of them were ever used.


Like Scott.
The reason he can't control his optic blasts is that he's got brain damage in the section that would allow him to control them... Well they've got how many X-men that have been capable of magically healling anything and anyone up to and including being dead???

or he could just use a power dampener hidden in a watch. Don't say that he wouldn't want to use tech to block his powers, as thats just what he does with his visor and glasses. just one little power dampner watch and he could walk out with his eyes uncovered 24 7 and just press the off switch when he wants to shoot out his eyebeams.

The same type of device could be used for Rogue whenever she wanted to be touched by someone, and don't say it wouldn't work on her, she's had her powers blocked by mutant collars and power dampening cells and places just as often as everyone else.

[CapnRedBeard]

I was thinking it'd be Robin too. Or perhaps Batman. When you get right down to it...it could've been anyone because sexuality and fighting crime/being a criminal are not connected at all. That's why it really is lame that in 2012 DC is trying to cash in and make it seem like a huge deal. These non-traditional societal background stories are only non-traditional due to the writers themselves. We should see super heroes reflect actual society. There should for example be hundreds of black and Asian super heroes. Not just token examples here and there to be "edgy." - my two cents

[DomaDoma]

Of all the black superheroes that come to my mind, Luke Cage is the only one who seems there to be "edgy". And he's cool regardless. But yeah, having a gay character just because they expect it to be shocking is the crux of their problem. The thing to do is 1) introduce a gay superhero with kickass, original character traits and 2) refrain from killing him off in a crossover event just because Batman has a larger fan following. Stagnation is the real bane of Marvel and DC.

(Creating a bunch of superheroes just so they could have the proper ratio of beans counted doesn't seem like it would lead to very good comics, though.)

[otakuryoga]

Alan Scott was never iconic.

Zevox

Can you honestly say you'd expect someone who doesn't read comics to have ever so much as heard of Alan Scott?

Zevox

true..but........


It's Green Lantern

Zevox

to a non-comic reader it is the 2nd one that counts

non reader will go "green lantern? i've heard of that guy..hey, didn't they just make a movie about him?"

[Man on Fire]

Ehh Rogue never had any problems in the first place other than the writers making up stupid reasons for her to not be able to control her abilities when by every concieveable notion she should have been " Fixed " decades ago. Same thing goes for Scott.

Really with all of the alternatives available to these characters it allways bugged me that none of them were ever used.


Like Scott.
The reason he can't control his optic blasts is that he's got brain damage in the section that would allow him to control them... Well they've got how many X-men that have been capable of magically healling anything and anyone up to and including being dead???

or he could just use a power dampener hidden in a watch. Don't say that he wouldn't want to use tech to block his powers, as thats just what he does with his visor and glasses. just one little power dampner watch and he could walk out with his eyes uncovered 24 7 and just press the off switch when he wants to shoot out his eyebeams.

The same type of device could be used for Rogue whenever she wanted to be touched by someone, and don't say it wouldn't work on her, she's had her powers blocked by mutant collars and power dampening cells and places just as often as everyone else.

Funny thing that recently they fixed both of them, explaining that their problems were psychosomatic. I think that Rogue's still stick (for now at least) but Cyclops was okay for one series and then everybody else returned to writing him as always with no explanation. That was also the time his balls started to grow to the point they become inteligent, took control over his body and are now leading the X-Men.

(Do we have general comic books thread? It would be better place for such discussions)

[willpell]

We should see super heroes reflect actual society. There should for example be hundreds of black and Asian super heroes. Not just token examples here and there to be "edgy." - my two cents

My pet theory on how to up the racial equality in DC comics: Barry "The Flash" Allen is black. Barry "The Flash" Allen has always been black; we at DC Comics are now correcting the unfortunate editorial oversight which failed to portray this. He is still exactly the same character, it's just that instead of being an ordinary whitebread American, he was an ordinary completely-naturalized African-American. (Whether the same should be true of Iris I'm not sure; making them an interracial couple is fine by my but undermines the "the artists didn't even think to question this" theory.)

[Zevox]

We should see super heroes reflect actual society. There should for example be hundreds of black and Asian super heroes.
The problem with that idea is that the majority of superheroes are long-established ones, with pretty much all of the big name ones created back in the golden or silver ages of comics, and of course with only a handful of exceptions characters created back then were white. New ones rarely attain more than minor popularity even among comic readers, with again rare exceptions such as Deadpool. Which makes a huge demographic shift in the characters like that extremely unlikely.


true..but........



to a non-comic reader it is the 2nd one that counts

non reader will go "green lantern? i've heard of that guy..hey, didn't they just make a movie about him?"
And then they'd see a picture of him and notice that he doesn't look a thing like the Green Lantern they're thinking of, and be quite confused on the whole thing.

Zevox

[AtlanteanTroll]

No, it really could not have been Batman or Robin. Not because such amazing heroes couldn't be gay, but considering there's been an alleged pedophile dynamic between the two since the 50s, making either gay would ultimately (and unjustly) play into some horrible theories. It'd be bad PR and the media (not even necessarily the nerd-media, but the actual media as well) would have a field day.

[CapnRedBeard]

My favorite black superhero was/is Bishop of xmen fame. I was very into comics when he was introduced. It also helped that Jim Lee was the artist at the time. They just did such a great job with him. Cool back story...great art...no whiny pc crud with his skin color. He wasn't the latest token black guy...he was simply awesome.

[Traab]

My favorite black superhero was/is Bishop of xmen fame. I was very into comics when he was introduced. It also helped that Jim Lee was the artist at the time. They just did such a great job with him. Cool back story...great art...no whiny pc crud with his skin color. He wasn't the latest token black guy...he was simply awesome.

Luke Cage on the other hand was frankly hilarious. Bishop was awesome, though honestly my experience with his character was the xmen cartoon series. Much like with storm, it was handled perfectly. His race rarely, if ever, was even mentioned, and it had no real bearing on the show at all. It was treated as no more important than his hair color.

[Phae Nymna]

no stahp dc, das gay

In other news, I approve. Wholeheartedly. If only Cpt. America were too?

[otakuryoga]

And then they'd see a picture of him and notice that he doesn't look a thing like the Green Lantern they're thinking of, and be quite confused on the whole thing.

Zevox

again though..this publicity stunt was aimed at non readers
DC announces that
"a GREEN LANTERN is gay!"
and all they see is "green lantern" and (theoretically) go "wow, good job DC making such a major hero gay"

IF they are interested enough to look up a picture and see Allan Scott then they will just chalk up the big difference in look to being something Hollywood did to make the movie more sellable

[Man on Fire]

In other words, DC is lying to people for PR points.

[otakuryoga]

no..highlight my post above
like this


"a GREEN LANTERN is gay!"


they say it is "a" green lantern (while trying hard to not let non readers know there are multiple GL's)
because they realize most non-readers neither know nor care about the difference between them
all they hear is "green lantern is gay" not 'one of many green lanterns is gay"..and think that DC made a major character gay
and then you start talking about alternate universes and their eyes glaze over and they tune you out

they aren't lying..they are just shouting part of the statement a LOT while whispering another part
and what do people hear? the shouted part

[TheEmerged]

In other words, DC is lying to people for PR points.

Give that man a cookie. Nearly every MSM site I trolled was showing either a picture of Hal Jordon or the guy from the film (*wink wink*) on the front page, then the proper character on the real article.

RE: People thinking it would be Batman or Robin. Nope, no chance whatsoever of this happening. None (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22seduction+of+the+innocent%22&gbv=2&oq=%22seduction+of+the+innocent%22&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_l=hp.3..0l10.1731.7769.0.8143.27.25.0.0.0.0.265 .3120.1j20j2.23.0...0.0.25rhgNgeFz8). Whatsoever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent). Period. (http://www.psu.edu/dept/inart10_110/inart10/cmbk4cca.html)

[Man on Fire]

they aren't lying..they are just shouting part of the statement a LOT while whispering another part

Potato/Poteto or something like that - DC is playing on people's exceptations to make them belive something that's not true, at the end of the day it's just a very clever way to lie.

[willpell]

Potato/Poteto or something like that - DC is playing on people's exceptations to make them belive something that's not true, at the end of the day it's just a very clever way to lie.

This. A thousand times this. Our society LOVES to technically tell the truth in very misleading ways - fine print on contracts, end-user license agreements, {Scrubbed} All tucked away in the hope that you won't notice them, and then mercilessly enforced in a court of law {Scrubbed} and if you complain they say something like "ignorance is not a defense". Pretty much the entirety of Western Civilization is founded on this kind of....I don't even know what I can call it other than something that would need to be censored.

[Psyren]

You know, part of me is annoyed that they took the least popular/well-known Green Lantern, yelled "still technically a Green Lantern!" and then shoved him out of his very vaguely-constructed closet for cheap PR points.

Part of me is. But that's honestly the smaller part; the larger part does see the positive in all this.

1) Like it or not, even *a* GL is more famous to the general public than, say, Northstar or Midnighter - so DC's godawful treatment of anything that isn't Batman aside, we might actually/eventually have a decent movie or game of an iconic gay superhero.

2) For all that he is lacking in notoriety among the other GLs, he at least has the undisputed fame of being first. (And, the nerd in me gushes, having a somewhat more primal power source than the others.)

3) His powers are cool. Like, really cool. A small part of me groaned inwardly that they made the guy with a "starheart ring" gay, but that didn't stop the damn thing from being badass. In addition to all the "think-it-build-it" powers the other GLs have, with a much cooler weakness (wood/plants instead of... yellow?) he's also displayed telepathy, power mimicry (including mimicking Flash), phasing, hypnosis, invisibility and eventually not needing the ring at all. Didn't he become DC's Dr. Strange at one point? He certainly has the cape-obsession.

So all in all, color me positive over the affair. (And rainbow.)

[Zevox]

1) Like it or not, even *a* GL is more famous to the general public than, say, Northstar or Midnighter - so DC's godawful treatment of anything that isn't Batman aside, we might actually/eventually have a decent movie or game of an iconic gay superhero.
I wouldn't bet on it. We barely got a movie about the actual iconic Green Lantern, and the only reason there's any GL games is because every superhero movie gets (poorly made) tie-in games now. I doubt we'll ever see either even for Kyle Rayner, much less Alan Scott.


2) For all that he is lacking in notoriety among the other GLs, he at least has the undisputed fame of being first.
When that makes him the least bit famous among non-comic fans (or even comic fans that don't care about the Green Lanterns, for that matter), feel free to let me know.


with a much cooler weakness (wood/plants instead of... yellow?)
The space cop GLs do not have a weakness anymore. That was done away with some time ago, almost certainly precisely because of how stupid it was. (I don't know whether Alan Scott still has his wood weakness or not.)

Zevox

[Psyren]

I wouldn't bet on it. We barely got a movie about the actual iconic Green Lantern, and the only reason there's any GL games is because every superhero movie gets (poorly made) tie-in games now. I doubt we'll ever see either even for Kyle Rayner, much less Alan Scott.

I guess it's the optimist in me, but being the "gay one" is likely to be a pretty decent shot in the arm to his notoriety in the long run. When you get right down to it, Raynor and even racial minority Stewart don't have as much going for them to differentiate from Hal (though the latter is likely next in line popularity-wise outside the comics thanks to the cartoons at least.)

But for Alan, there's a vacuum - both for an iconic LGBT superhero, and for a GL that isn't terrible. Played right, he could fill both gaps.


When that makes him the least bit famous among non-comic fans (or even comic fans that don't care about the Green Lanterns, for that matter), feel free to let me know.

Eh, it's not like Hal himself was that popular either. It's the ring and powers that non-comic-fans recognize, they could honestly care less who's behind the mask - particularly after the disastrous film.



The space cop GLs do not have a weakness anymore.

Fair enough, I wasn't keeping up with that bit of the mythos.

[bmosley45]

I was a little disappointed to hear that it was Green Lantern (Alan Scott) who was outed. Most people haven't even heard of Alan Scott nor do most understand or know about Earth 2. So DC takes an obscure character from an alternate dimension and makes him gay? So what? If they were really trying to make a statement, the choices for which character they should've picked are quite clear: Wonder Woman, Batman, or Superman. Most people think Batman is already gay because, unintentionally, DC has been laying the frame work for Bruce to come out ever since Robin was introduced.

I agree with a lot of the posters in that DC made a cheap PR move that, in the end, amounted to nothing because they were not willing to put their biggest characters on the line.

I wrote and drew a comic/blog about this here (http://piratecake.wordpress.com/2012/06/01/comic-cage-and-fist-who-the-hell-is-alan-scott/), starring my favorite B-List Marvel heroes, Luke Cage and Iron Fist. If posting links to my work in this discussion is in poor taste, please let me know. I will take it down.

[TheLaughingMan]

Welp. Saw this coming.

...

/yawn


This. A thousand times this. Our society LOVES to technically tell the truth in very misleading ways - fine print on contracts, end-user license agreements, {Scrubbed} All tucked away in the hope that you won't notice them, and then mercilessly enforced in a court of law {Scrubbed} and if you complain they say something like "ignorance is not a defense". Pretty much the entirety of Western Civilization is founded on this kind of....I don't even know what I can call it other than something that would need to be censored.

To be fair, most of Eastern society is screwed up a good deal more than we are, just in different ways.

[otakuryoga]

The space cop GLs do not have a weakness anymore. That was done away with some time ago, almost certainly precisely because of how stupid it was. (I don't know whether Alan Scott still has his wood weakness or not.)

Zevox

--insert snarky comment about him having a weakness FOR wood now--

[Devonix]

--insert snarky comment about him having a weakness FOR wood now--

Technically they still do have that weakness, its just something that they overcome. If a Green Lantern allows fear into their hearts during combat then their rings won't work against yellow. It just that the Vets have enough experience to overcome it. Rookies have a harder time.

Also the whole wood weakness has to do with his powers being connected to nature and its more that he can't harm the natural world with his powers. IE he can use his powers to turn an entire building to rubble but not a forest.

[Tyndmyr]

Technically they still do have that weakness, its just something that they overcome. If a Green Lantern allows fear into their hearts during combat then their rings won't work against yellow. It just that the Vets have enough experience to overcome it. Rookies have a harder time.

Also the whole wood weakness has to do with his powers being connected to nature and its more that he can't harm the natural world with his powers. IE he can use his powers to turn an entire building to rubble but not a forest.

Vulnerable to wood...let's make him gay.

I admit I'm not seeing this as a plus.

[Psyren]

--insert snarky comment about him having a weakness FOR wood now--

You have no idea how hard it was to avoid that :smallbiggrin:


Vulnerable to wood...let's make him gay.

I admit I'm not seeing this as a plus.

Did that even come up during BN/BD? I think his weakness was dropped with the others, however tastelessly amusing the joke would have been to port over.

[Ravens_cry]

If done right, this is actually a fairly daring move.
After all Alan Scott, last time I checked, was in a series in a mid 20th century setting.
Coming out as gay at such a time would have repercussions.
That being said, Alan Scott is not iconic though by any stretch I am afraid.
The first but not foremost.

[otakuryoga]

You have no idea how hard it was to avoid that :smallbiggrin:



Did that even come up during BN/BD? I think his weakness was dropped with the others, however tastelessly amusing the joke would have been to port over.

ahh, so your mind is often found in the gutter as well

[industrious]

If done right, this is actually a fairly daring move.
After all Alan Scott, last time I checked, was in a series in a mid 20th century setting.
Coming out as gay at such a time would have repercussions.
That being said, Alan Scott is not iconic though by any stretch I am afraid.
The first but not foremost.

Doesn't really seem to be mid-twentieth century in Earth-2 to me.

[Psyren]

That being said, Alan Scott is not iconic though by any stretch I am afraid.
The first but not foremost.

To that I say again - none of them are, really. I'd be extremely surprised if much more was known about Hal beyond "fighter pilot" among non-comic fans. Alan may be relatively obscure, but he could also be the first time the public might care about the man wearing the ring.

[Ravens_cry]

To that I say again - none of them are, really. I'd be extremely surprised if much more was known about Hal beyond "fighter pilot" among non-comic fans. Alan may be relatively obscure, but he could also be the first time the public might care about the man wearing the ring.
Hal Jordan was also the one in Super Friends and the recent film.
That says to me he counts as the closest to iconic, though John Stewart, thanks to the DCAU Justice League series, could also be in the running.

[Tyndmyr]

Did that even come up during BN/BD? I think his weakness was dropped with the others, however tastelessly amusing the joke would have been to port over.

I have no idea. I didn't read all of that series, as I got tired of having melted skittles poured into my eyes.

That said, I don't recall his weakness ever being explicitly mentioned as gone, just...ignored, as comic books so often do.

[Teln]

If done right, this is actually a fairly daring move.
After all Alan Scott, last time I checked, was in a series in a mid 20th century setting.
Coming out as gay at such a time would have repercussions.

Afraid not--from what I've heard, Earth-2 is now set in the present day.

[Psyren]

Hal Jordan was also the one in Super Friends and the recent film.
That says to me he counts as the closest to iconic, though John Stewart, thanks to the DCAU Justice League series, could also be in the running.

But that's my point - aside from the media they've appeared in (and their skin color) what really differentiates those two in the eyes of the public? Or if you asked a non-comics-fan what the difference is between Raynor and Hal, what would he or she say?

I believe the answer is - not much. You could pour almost anyone with generic hero characteristics (brave, creative, rebellious etc.) into green tights and few would notice the difference. Alan is the first time that the man behind the ring might get real attention, precisely because of the niche he represents.

It's like asking a non-comics-fan the difference between Tim Drake and Jason Todd, or the difference between Wally West and Barry Allen.

And if I may rant briefly for a moment, this is a general problem with DC characters. They start with the suit and then develop the man, whereas Marvel starts with the man and thrusts them into the suit. People care about Peter Parker/Tony Stark/Bruce Banner/Steve Rogers just as much as they care about Spider Man/Iron Man/Hulk/Cap, because Marvel makes characters first and heroes second.

[Tyndmyr]

Or if you asked a non-comics-fan what the difference is between Raynor and Hal, what would he or she say?

Raynor who?

[The Glyphstone]

Raynor who?

The only Raynor I'm familiar with is named Jim.

[Psyren]

Yes, thank you both for focusing on my typo (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Kyle_Rayner) and ignoring the rest :smallsigh:

[Tyndmyr]

Wasn't actually a focus on the typo. It was what I anticipated the response of the average non-comic fan would be.

[Psyren]

Wasn't actually a focus on the typo. It was what I anticipated the response of the average non-comic fan would be.

Then I apologize, though in my defense your response was ambiguous.

Anyway, for all that Rayner isn't well-known, do people know that much more about Jordan or Stewart? That's what I'm getting at. Alan isn't as far behind the rest in notoriety as this thread makes him seem; it's the ring that's famous moreso than the man.

[Man on Fire]

Don't forget that Guy Gardner was in Batman: Brave And Bold, he might be now more known to general public than Kyle and probably as much as Stewart (if not more, B:BaB is much younger show than JL/JLU). And non-comics fan could probably name difference between Stewart and Jordan pretty easily - Jordan is white and has mask, Stewart is black and doesn't hide his idientity.

[TheEmerged]

Example: a link off of CNN's site as of today is still showing Hal's picture from JLA #1 next to the headline about this.

[Man on Fire]

Example: a link off of CNN's site as of today is still showing Hal's picture from JLA #1 next to the headline about this.

Cowboy Bebop At His Computer, Heroine Of Gundam Amuron and things like that - mainstream media couldn't get a single fact about geeky things straight (no pu intended) if their lives would depend on it.

[Devonix]

But that's my point - aside from the media they've appeared in (and their skin color) what really differentiates those two in the eyes of the public? Or if you asked a non-comics-fan what the difference is between Raynor and Hal, what would he or she say?

I believe the answer is - not much. You could pour almost anyone with generic hero characteristics (brave, creative, rebellious etc.) into green tights and few would notice the difference. Alan is the first time that the man behind the ring might get real attention, precisely because of the niche he represents.

It's like asking a non-comics-fan the difference between Tim Drake and Jason Todd, or the difference between Wally West and Barry Allen.

And if I may rant briefly for a moment, this is a general problem with DC characters. They start with the suit and then develop the man, whereas Marvel starts with the man and thrusts them into the suit. People care about Peter Parker/Tony Stark/Bruce Banner/Steve Rogers just as much as they care about Spider Man/Iron Man/Hulk/Cap, because Marvel makes characters first and heroes second.

I would say that DC usually starts with the theme, DC characters are symbols representing ideas. everything else usually is wrapped around those symbols

[TheEmerged]

Cowboy Bebop At His Computer, Heroine Of Gundam Amuron and things like that - mainstream media couldn't get a single fact about geeky things straight (no pun intended) if their lives would depend on it.

That's just it. It's been nearly a week since the release was made. The issue came out yesterday, I believe. Yet this "error" persists.

Why the scare quotes? I don't think this "error" is the fault of the MSM's incompetence/inability to do its own job. If DC actually wanted to make an 'event' out of this, they'd garner additional publicity by correcting the mistake. Since the "error" is not just still out there but perpetuating... I'm finding it increasingly difficult to believe its an accident.