Please help us, we're pathetic

[Marlowe]

'K. So our resident DM insisted on us playing with "his" idea of 3.5, which apparently means:

We were only allowed to be Half-orcs, Halflings, or Gnomes. Chosen Randomly.

We can only start as Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians, WuJens, Hexblades, or Druids. Again, Chosen Randomly

We had to be CN, CE, or NE. We start off with some Random basic equipment that may or may not suit our class, hunted and hungry.

There's other assorted shenanigans going on with skills points and stat rolls which are too depressing to go into here. Oh, and we're level 3.

I got off rather lucky as a Half-Orc Rogue, Str 15, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 5 (yes. Ouch) and Chr 12. I got to start with a masterwork composite shortbow, so I actually have a use for my Archery feats. Other players weren't so lucky. One is a Gnomish Barbarian. Another is a Half-Orc WuJen.

The Barbarian seems OK. The WuJen is a mess. He hit negatives three times in the first session and only survived by DM fiat. Constitution penalty, player knows nothing about playing a spellcaster, and seems determined not to learn. Enough about that. Rant part over.

Obviously, we're going to need a Divine Caster. Actually, a competent caster of any kind. I think the barbarian has a decent wisdom and could handle a few Cleric levels (DM permitting). I'm thinking I should try adding some Shugenja levels to my Rogue. Charisma 12 isn't a lot, but it's enough to handle a few levels and I have enough social skills to make boosting my Chr worthwhile. We cannot. Repeat we CANNOT rely on the DM making healing wands available to keep us in positive health and we cannot rely on any of his NPCs. I'd rather not venture into a fiddly, niche class like Shugenja, but I need some way to get divine spellcasting working on my Rogue.

Can anyone suggest a better idea?

TL,DR: Need to add spellcasting levels for healing and utility to a Rogue with somewhat above-average (but not stellar) Int and Chr but appalling Wis.

Cleric, Druid, Spirit Shaman are out. No wisdom.

Archivist will be vetoed by DM. He's not heard of it.

Favoured Soul would get decent HP, wouldn't cripple BAB, but would get very few skills and doesn't have the best spell selection. Also, would need to avoid any spell involving a saving throw.

Shugenja seems to be the best option for spell variety and utility, since it's entirely CHR based. Trouble is it has a horrible BAB. I'm worried that going this direction will hurt me as a Rogue maybe too much.

Any other ideas?

[mrzomby]

talk to the wujen ooc, and see if you can set up a way for his character to do something that your rogue/whole party is totally against, or the rogue/party do something that makes the wujen and them come to blows, then kill him and let him re-roll?

[NM020110]

1.) That...is a terrible situation. Good luck.

2.) Perhaps you could use wands, or a healing belt? There's the academic priest or dynamic priest feats from one of the dragonlance books, but it doesn't sound like you'll be able to use it.

Personally, I'd recommend that the barbarian take cleric levels while you take a few wizard levels.

[prufock]

Can anyone suggest a better idea?

Yes, let someone else DM.

But if you're stuck with this, shugenja is your best bet I guess. If you aren't going to be using debuffs or attack spells, Favoured Soul is a bit less "fiddly." You can get into Shadowbane Stalker (an okay rogue/divine caster PrC) pretty easily at level 6 either way, though that Cha score is going to be a problem for spells past 2nd level.

If the Barbarian has a good Wis, it would probably be better to get him going into cleric and head toward Ordained Champion or something later.

[Calanon]

{Scrubbed}

[Empedocles]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

This.

Barring that...an artificer, if your DM won't veto it (I'm not holding my breath...). Favored soul is otherwise your best option...

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yes, let someone else DM.
QFT.

Seriously, why is this guy DMing? You, at the very least, don't seem thrilled at the prospect of playing this sort of game. Heck, why are you playing at all?

[king.com]

Are you playing a one off adventure or a silly game or something else that would justify the....nonsensical nature of things? I mean the stat rolling i completely understand, I even accept the random equipment if its about you starting in a situation where you dont have too much control but this seems a little crazy. I would even go as far as to say this seems completely contrary to what D&D is about but thats just me.

[Grail]

I say, "take a teaspoon of cement and harden up!"

seriously, if you give it a go and aren't fighting it, you may end up enjoying it, but you won't know if you don't try.

If after trying, you aren't liking it, then that's a different kettle of fish and then you (as a group), need to talk to the GM and ask him a few questions. Even then, I wouldn't be saying "sack the GM, kill the GM etc", but merely ask him to explain some of the more bizarre, to you, rulings and decisions he's made. There may be a logical explanation that he hasn't articulated to you.

Running a game is an oft times unappreciated and difficult task. As a long term GM I can tell you that often there are reasons you do what you do that players don't seem to see, understand or care about, and that makes it more difficult. We generally run the games that we would like to play in, and if it was just DnD-generica, then it would get pretty boring pretty quickly.

I am currently running a Pathfinder game, 15pt buy, all characters are Specialist Wizards, no two can have the same specialty, no school can be chosen by more than 2 characters as an opposed school. No Half-Orcs, no Half-Elves, no Gnomes.

The players have taken this on board and are having a good time with it. Rather than seeing it as a restriction, they are seeing it as an opportunity.

The next game I am going to run, I've already told them it will be a 5pt buy and they will start as commoners.

Roleplaying is as much about putting yourself into strange situations as it is about anything else, and sometimes the games we fear most are the ones that are the most memorable.

Of course, your GM might just be an antagonistic git, in which case someone else should volunteer to run the game. But if nobody else want's to run the game, you've got nobody to blame.

Hmm, I think I waffled a bit there, serves me right for taking 2 phone calls whilst trying to type this.

[Marlowe]

I say, "take a teaspoon of cement and harden up!"



Thank you. Do NOT need a lecture. Did you notice that I am the one asking for advice asking for how to constructively deal with this situation? Take your internet hard man attitude somewhere else.

Everyone else, one at a time:

Barbarian player has some wisdom, and has agreed to take Cleric levels. I will be looking at something Arcane but still fighty. I'm inclined to head towards Warlock. Just in case he takes my bow away next.

We are undecided as to whether the WuJen player is deliberately trying to get himself killed, or really is utterly clueless as to how to survive without a good AC and lots of HP to shield him from the consequences of his actions. Whatever, the DM doesn't seem to want to let him die. I should note that the DM genuinely seems to believe that WuJens know every spell on their class list, and he is letting the player cast them without preparation. The character remains a liability.

Shadowbane Stalker is not an option because of the alignment restrictions. Healing Belts, Artificers, and Dynamic Priest are not options. I could have tried to build towards Divine Crusader IF the alignment restrictions hadn't messed things up. Note that some of these restrictions (the race/class combos) were transmitted to us the night before but others (equipment, alignment, and situation) were given to us only right before the game.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ooooh! Warlock into Arcane Trickster is a personal favorite of mine. Toss in a bit of Hellfire Warlock to give it a kick :smallsmile:

For the Barbarian, Travel Devotion if he dips cleric. He could take a few of the feats that let him heal a little for free, but most consider that lighting feats on fire.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I will be looking at something Arcane but still fighty. I'm inclined to head towards Warlock. Just in case he takes my bow away next.

...

I should note that the DM genuinely seems to believe that WuJens know every spell on their class list, and he is letting the player cast them without preparation.

You know...that's not a bad argument for multiclassing to wu jen. You'd be down three caster levels and working with an Int of 12, which is a pain, but they have a fair selection of low-level spells that make attack rolls, so your sneak attack and ranged attack feats aren't entirely a waste, and, you know, full caster. It wouldn't be optimized by any stretch, but it would probably be workable, and if you can get some levels and Int boosters under your belt, maybe even good. Would also bring your Will save from abyssal to merely bad.

Alternately...if the current wu jen doesn't seem interested in being a caster, could you switch characters? It just seems like a sad waste to have a versatile spell list with (if I understand right) warmage-style casting and not be able to take advantage of it...

That being said, your ability scores are solid for rogue. Sticking with it and maybe pumping UMD works as well as it would in any campaign. It would also let you keep your skills up, which sound like they'd be helpful in this sort of campaign.

Is Whirling Frenzy and Spirit Totems available? A level of barb, put your level 4 ability increase to bring Str to 16, get Whirling Frenzy and Pounce with your 2d6 SA...wouldn't be awful by any stretch. Although...might not synergize with archery feats too well.

The warlock idea isn't bad either. It'd give you some tricks, at least, and if you can nab Craven, eldritch blast + sneak attack + craven is at least reasonable damage.

[Marlowe]

the WuJen situation isn't anything so premeditated as house rules. It's a matter of the DM not understanding WuJens combined with the player being too lazy to prepare his spells. Or roll his hit points. Or work out his skills. I can't see it lasting.

But yes, a major reason we didn't just leave him to bleed out after he got himself eviscerated by random wildlife (he had a monkey throw a stone at him. He was told there were 40+ monkeys in the tree. He cast Hail of Stones at them, because "nobody throws stuff at me". He got hit with 13 hp worth of bludgeoning damage in return. He said "Oh, I haven't done my hit points yet". It turned out he had 7) was out of the thought that his spellbook might come in handy later.

That said, low level WuJen spells are not tempting.

[NikitaDarkstar]

You could possibly look into Warmage or Duskblade, I'm not sure how well they work with multi-classing, but it could work. (And there is a feat that lets you boost your effective caster level up to 4 levels(but not above your total HD))

I most certainly suggest getting in touch with the wu-jen outside the game. Even if he isn't outright trying to kill himself something clearly isn't right if he can't even be bothered to do his hit points, much less his spell book. See if he can either multiclass into something he'd enjoy or you know, if he really wants a re-roll force it somehow. (If the DM won't allow PvP, see if he can just have a disagreement with the other characters and leave. Or jump of a cliff, see if the DM still saves him..?)

And if you're unhappy with how the game is run, and he won't listen to reason, change DM. If he doesn't want to accept that either, start up another game, with someone else as a DM and tell him he's more than welcome as a player. Also if you try to talk to him about this make it clear it's nothing personal against him, but the game he wants to run simply isn't what you want to play, sometimes styles simply don't match and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Marlowe]

Well, our GM cancelled the second session at the last minute. This is the fourth such campaign this GM has done that's had this happen or never got started at all.

The Barbarian player and myself have agreed to coup-de-gras the WuJen as soon as we get a new session, since the first one ended with him still bleeding out. I've come up with this warped theory that the GM is attempting to punish the WuJen player for previous displays of prima-donna incompetence and utter failure to do basic character bookkeeping by putting him in a situation where his character will be butchered over and over again. If so, it's not going to work. This guy does not acknowledge his mistakes.

The barbarian player and myself have got a little minicampaign going with just us. Experimenting with oddball builds. I've got a Favoured Soul of Odur 1/Fire Shugenja of the order of the Impenetrable Chalice 3 (which is fun, but weak in BAB. It is basically a meatier sorceror that happens to know healing spells). He's running a Barbarian 1/Spirit Shaman 3 (which is very effective). We are chasing evil fire cultists of Loki, or maybe Surtur, or maybe Amaterasu through a frozen forest with mixed Norse and medieval Japanese cultural influence. It's actually fun.

[Ianuagonde]

How much do you want the spellcasting aspect? Because a Crusader (ToB) is very good at keeping himself and allies in positive HP, especially at low levels. Multiclassing with Rogue is a bit...unorthodox, but your stats seems to support melee combat very well.

[Gharkash]

I second the Crusader if it is an option, and the Barbarian might enjoy some Warblade. I have no idea on casters and the like, but i want to state this: "Please help us, we're pathetic" i think your DM is the pathetic one.

[Marlowe]

How about a WuJen who dies to monkeys within five minutes into the first session?

[Gharkash]

Freakin' hilarious?

[Gharkash]

To be serious, why do you play in that group?

[Tyndmyr]

Have your char commit suicide. Roll on the random chart again. Repeat until you get what you want.

Come up with new and amusing ways to commit suicide each time. Remember, the DM can always be pissed, but if you're amusing everyone else at the table, it's still a win.

[Venger]

(plays different game, actually has fun)

I'm glad it worked out. your DM really sounds like an idiot. I'm glad this advice is no longer applicable, but when you have horrible mental stats, a good choice is, as you said, warlock, since nothing they do is stat dependent (you can play one with all 3s) and few of their invocations offer saves. the same thing is true of meldshaping classes (totemist/incarnate DO NOT play soulborn, you will have a bad time) for essentially (pun) the same reason. it does require knowing incarnum rules, so that's something of a barrier to entry, but it's a great way to be effective in a campaign where your DM is a control freak and won't give you any money or items, which "roll for everything randomly" is a definite harbinger of, as is "random equipment" since your blink shirts and airstep sandals and whatnot fill in most of the must-have item abilities pretty handily

[Andorax]

I've done some oddball campaign concepts as a DM at one time or another*, but I am at least able to give a good explanation as to WHY I'm seriously tweaking the rules and generally speaking don't throw a bunch of enforced randomness at the party. It sounds to me like the problem is that the DM has an idea in his head that makes perfect sense to him, but he can't get out of his seat and see it from the player's perspective.

What YOU need to do doesn't involve bizarre optimization gymnastics (if you do something counter to the vision inside the DM's head, he'll do something to counter it in turn). Instead, talk to the DM and tell him straight up that "this is not fun". Tell him why. Let him know that you're feeling over-restricted and uncertain as to where to go next when the very next campaign twist might ruin the half-formed concept you've stitched together from the fragments of wha the's given you. Let him know that your buddy, the Wu-Jen, is acting suicidal out of frustration.

Stage a sit-in protest at the gaming table where you do nothing all session long but talk about superhero movies if you have to...just make it clear that he needs to come up with a concept that allows everyone to have fun. Point out Tyndmyr's suggestion as just the sort of thing people used to do with poorly-written old RPG video games...reroll over and over again until you get the character you like...and that his rules remind you a lot of that.




*I've run the Slavelords series. I've run Labyrinth of Madness. I've run a campaign where all 8 players had to play Paladins. I've run a Spelljammer campaign that started the PCs off with a bar stool, the wreckage of a dragonfly ship, and a single divine scroll of Create Minor Helm...literally, a wing and a prayer. I don't think, had this forum been available then, my players would EVER have come here with a complaint like the OP.

[Marlowe]

The WuJen player isn't trying to die. This is now he normally acts. It's working even less well this time because he doesn't have AC and hit points to protect him.

His normal approach to things in any encounter is

1st round-charge something. Whether it's done anything hostile or not.

2nd round-get beaten up while screaming for the other players to come help him.

3rd round-lie in a mutilated pile in a puddle of his own blood while moaning about having to make stabilization checks.

The only exception is if he has a good missile weapon. Then he'll keep wasting rounds changing from one to the other. Because he's never actually read the rules about changing weapons to find out that you can do it for free during a move action. He does not listen when people tell him these things. He also never takes Power Attack because he can't understand it, and always takes 2-weapon fighting because he thinks it's the only way to get more attacks.

He has been playing D&D in some form or another for approximately 30 years.

In a large group, and he plays a martial character, this works enough that he keeps thinking it's the right way to play the game. Because the other characters can generally allow for him. In small groups with a flimsy spellcaster it's so funny that it really is not funny.

[Namfuak]

The WuJen player isn't trying to die. This is now he normally acts. It's working even less well this time because he doesn't have AC and hit points to protect him.

His normal approach to things in any encounter is

1st round-charge something. Whether it's done anything hostile or not.

2nd round-get beaten up while screaming for the other players to come help him.

3rd round-lie in a mutilated pile in a puddle of his own blood while moaning about having to make stabilization checks.

The only exception is if he has a good missile weapon. Then he'll keep wasting rounds changing from one to the other. Because he's never actually read the rules about changing weapons to find out that you can do it for free during a move action. He does not listen when people tell him these things. He also never takes Power Attack because he can't understand it, and always takes 2-weapon fighting because he thinks it's the only way to get more attacks.

He has been playing D&D in some form or another for approximately 30 years.

In a large group, and he plays a martial character, this works enough that he keeps thinking it's the right way to play the game. Because the other characters can generally allow for him. In small groups with a flimsy spellcaster it's so funny that it really is not funny.

As long as he wants to be a melee monster, why not let him? Wu Jen could replace sorcerer for a sorcadin. Alternatively, if he really hates the bookkeeping with spells, he could find a few 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells he likes and do something like Wu Jen 3/Crusader 3/Spellsword 10/Crusader 4 (note: this is going to be less powerful than a modified sorcadin build and if he really hates the whole bookkeeping aspect then he may even want to not use ToB, which would mean replacing the first Crusader with probably Spirit Lion totem+Any UA variant totem barbarian 3, and anything full BAB for the last four levels, if you even ever get there).

I'm not going to bother commenting on the player or the DM, there must be a reason you are staying in the campaign that is beyond its quality. Or you like it the way it is, in which case my opinion is pretty useless anyway.

[Marlowe]

Myself or the Barbarian player can and have put together better campaigns while waiting for the kettle to boil. We do, however, play the game to play characters. To roleplay. We do not want to be the DM all the time. We let this guy DM again because he likes to, knowing full well he normally screws it up on multiple levels, but we're prepared to work with what he throws at us. After all, it won't last long.

As for our WuJen player; he's never heard of ToB, and if he did he'd call it "gay". He can't understand Power Attack, he's not going to understand maneuvers and stances.

[nedz]

The WuJen player isn't trying to die. This is now he normally acts. It's working even less well this time because he doesn't have AC and hit points to protect him.

His normal approach to things in any encounter is

1st round-charge something. Whether it's done anything hostile or not.

2nd round-get beaten up while screaming for the other players to come help him.

3rd round-lie in a mutilated pile in a puddle of his own blood while moaning about having to make stabilization checks.

The only exception is if he has a good missile weapon. Then he'll keep wasting rounds changing from one to the other. Because he's never actually read the rules about changing weapons to find out that you can do it for free during a move action. He does not listen when people tell him these things. He also never takes Power Attack because he can't understand it, and always takes 2-weapon fighting because he thinks it's the only way to get more attacks.

He has been playing D&D in some form or another for approximately 30 years.

In a large group, and he plays a martial character, this works enough that he keeps thinking it's the right way to play the game. Because the other characters can generally allow for him. In small groups with a flimsy spellcaster it's so funny that it really is not funny.

This sounds like a reasonable protest, only I suspect that it isn't.
You force me to play a Wu Jen, thats fine, but I'm still going to charge into combat.:smallbiggrin:

[killem2]

As a DM, I'm ok with the limiting factors, but making it at random, is a ridiculous piece of **** DMing on their part.

[The Glyphstone]

The Wu Jen must be like, your best blood brother buddy of all time out-of-game, because I can't understand why you would want to spend game time with him otherwise.

Your DM, on the other hand, just needs either less medication or more.

[Namfuak]

As for our WuJen player; he's never heard of ToB, and if he did he'd call it "gay". He can't understand Power Attack, he's not going to understand maneuvers and stances.

As long as he won't touch power attack, dual-wielding is probably his best option. If there are xp penalties in play, you may be forced to do Wu Jen 1, Spirit Lion Totem (complete champion, gives him pounce which should be right up his alley if he likes charging) Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Wu Jen 2/Fighter 2/Wu Jen 3/Spellsword x/Other full BAB prestige (maybe abjurant champion or Eldritch Knight, though those progress spellcasting). He's a half-orc, so the barbarian class is ignored. Make sure one of the fighter feats is two weapon fighting. Alternatively, fighter could be replaced with ranger, and he'd get 2-weapon fighting out of the second level. It looks like you guys don't have a trapfinder, so replacing his track ability with trapfinding as per the ACF from Dungeonscape might be helpful.

[Tyndmyr]

This sounds like a reasonable protest, only I suspect that it isn't.
You force me to play a Wu Jen, thats fine, but I'm still going to charge into combat.:smallbiggrin:

No, that seems like a perfectly reasonable response to the DM restrictions listed in the OP.

[Tyndmyr]

This sounds like a reasonable protest, only I suspect that it isn't.
You force me to play a Wu Jen, thats fine, but I'm still going to charge into combat.:smallbiggrin:

No, that seems like a perfectly reasonable response to the DM restrictions listed in the OP.

[Steward]

The Wu Jen must be like, your best blood brother buddy of all time out-of-game, because I can't understand why you would want to spend game time with him otherwise.

Your DM, on the other hand, just needs either less medication or more.

Yeah, that's kind of been my thinking. I'm sure they're cool guys, but the description I'm getting makes them seem like the gamers from Hell, and I probably wouldn't play a game like this with them unless they pulled my mother out of a burning building.

[Togo]

Spellthief, and ease him onto thrown weapons?

[Malak'ai]

Well I thought I might add my 2 cents.

I'm the poor fool who got stuck with the Gnome Barbarian in the OP :smallannoyed: .

As Marlowe has stated, the DM gave us some very... interesting restrictions and when I questioned them, his response was simply "All I've done is put you in a situation.".
Now I have no problems playing random or unorthodox characters but it's all the other things he's thrown in.

I've been gaming with this DM for over a decade and he does generally like throwing in some small restrictions (all Human, no Lawful, no purely martial) but this is just over the top IMO.

Both Marlowe and I have voiced our concerns about the game but he has just ignored us, but luckily for us, he likes PvP so when the Wu Jen mouthed off, claiming, and I quite, "And I have a Gnome Barbarian" when he has already been told that my character HATES the fact she was born a Gnome, I was allowed to turn round and clout him (which took him down to neg 3 HP) and he could not understand why I had done it.

Anyway, the game seems to have died anyway so no big deal.

[Mystral]

Have you guys ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?

[Malak'ai]

Out of the last 8 games I have played with this DM, as either DM or player, I have run 3 of them, Marlowe has run 3 and this guy has (tried) running 2, and both of his fell over within the first couple of months.

The only reason we let him DM is because, speaking for myself, is I LIKE to just be a player sometime. I find that having to do the leg work to get a game up and running and keep it going forwards at a reasonable pace that satisfies both character progression and story progression can become quite tiring, especially when said other person is as reliable as a bucket with a hole in the bottom and I end up having to run his character (minus sheet as he refuses to let ANYONE see his character sheet) half the time.

But because we (mainly) live in a small town with very few people who are willing to play, it's hard to find other players to join the group. It also doesn't help when one has had severe falling outs with other who they know play and as such have not talked to each other for over 8 years.

[Acanous]

You know, a Gnome Barbarian might not be that bad. Go Whirling Frenzy and be an archer. There's a lot out there for ranged barbarians.

Sucks about your situation though. Move to Canada.
It solves everything.

If you're already living in Canada, Move to Alberta.

Anywhere that's nice and far from that DM.

[Malak'ai]

My character turned out alright, just never came to like it as I had no say in what I would go.

Lol, unfortunately I live in a little dunghole of a country at the bottom of the world that most people have no idea where it existed or think is just another part of Australia. So moving to Canada sounds good, but it's not something that I believe will be in the cards.

[Malachei]

I've been gaming with this DM for over a decade and he does generally like throwing in some small restrictions (all Human, no Lawful, no purely martial) but this is just over the top IMO.

If you've been gaming with this DM for over a decade, you should know him well enough to approach him. I think playing with somebody for over a decade and not being able to discuss and solve a gaming issue is the real-world analogy of a failure on your Diplomacy roll. Coming here and complaining about the DM likely won't solve your issue. But perhaps you'd want to point this thread out to him and see what he thinks of it.

[Malak'ai]

I have talked to him about it, and his inconsistency with turning up to other games many times... He just does not listen. He is always right, no matter what

[Acanous]

You could still move to Canada.

[Malachei]

I have talked to him about it, and his inconsistency with turning up to other games many times... He just does not listen. He is always right, no matter what

If you ask them, most of the people are right. :smallbiggrin:
Being actually able to follow up on being right (:smallbiggrin:) may be a reason for him to enjoy DMing.

He could have a plot-related reason to restrict you, but unless that is the case, it is really an issue on the meta level, which probably cannot be solved in-game, but has to be talked about out-of-game.

Whenever I find a DM is creating a game that is not fun for the players, I first question myself, then the DM. Usually, I find this very easy to do. Most DMs want the game to be fun for the players and are very concerned if the players voice that they're not enjoying the game.

Back in AD&D, I recall one DM who wanted to create a somewhat "realistic medieval setting." The economy was hard on first-level characters' starting cash, and though our fighters would be specialized in bastard sword, we could only afford spears and leather armor. Magic-users were shunned and hunted, and faced more out-of-adventure threats than actual adventure threats. Being killed by robbers in a small town was just one of the typical scenarios.

People tried reacting to this in-game, optimizing their builds, tactics etc. But that did not help at all. The DM intentionally caused a high death rate to simulate a "realistic" rate of failure in an adventurer's career. After I had left, I heard some players actually played four or five years with him and never reached 5th level. I think one player had over 20 character deaths during that time.

Personally, in the games I DM, I try to understand the individual player's motivations (combat, puzzle-solving, character development, co-authoring storytelling, etc.) and their character's goals. I try to incorporate those into the storyline. I think this is part of the social contract you have when gaming.

And if somebody does not honor the social contract, you have an issue you cannot solve in-game. You can only step back from the game and discuss this on a meta level, addressing things like that the game should be fun for every player and the DM etc. Sometimes it even helps to have this discussion far away from the gaming table.

[Little Brother]

As long as he won't touch power attack, dual-wielding is probably his best option.You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.

TWF is garbage. It's "I can waste a feat to take one of the monk's worst class features. Oh, wait, it's even worse. Sounds fun." It only works in very focused Crit-Fishing builds, with aptitude kukris and Lightning Maces.

OP: Here's what you need to do: Become, say, take a level of Cleric(Trust me) with Rebuking, and, the Sun Domain from DLCS, and a level of Wizard(Domain Wizard with, let's say Envy domain?). Get the following feats, through retraining, shuffling, whatever: Heighten, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, DMM(Heighten), Alternative Source Spell, and Extra Slot.

Congrats, you now have 9th level wizard spells. Have fun. Wish-loop. Chain gate. Make him suffer.

[Malak'ai]

He could have a plot-related reason to restrict you, but unless that is the case, it is really an issue on the meta level, which probably cannot be solved in-game, but has to be talked about out-of-game.


His plot-relative reason was, and I quote, "Because I want you to be evil and I want you to play characters I wanted, the rest is your problem."

And as I have said, I have talked to him outside the game, I see him nearly everyday, but he just will not budge on his "I'm right and this game idea is awesome" attitude.
I stated earlier, I have no problems playing restricted characters or totally random characters, but I like to have a choice, not told "roll this, oh your a ect ect"

[Malachei]

His plot-relative reason was, and I quote, "Because I want you to be evil and I want you to play characters I wanted, the rest is your problem."

And as I have said, I have talked to him outside the game, I see him nearly everyday, but he just will not budge on his "I'm right and this game idea is awesome" attitude.
I stated earlier, I have no problems playing restricted characters or totally random characters, but I like to have a choice, not told "roll this, oh your a ect ect"

Long ago, I played a game where I handed out character sheets. The reasons were twofold: Firstly, the game was very story-driven and I wanted to make sure the characters would have (partly conflicting) motivations and fit the story. Secondly, the players had vastly differing system mastery, and this was one way of ensuring everybody had a similar starting situation. I had asked the players if they were fine with this procedure, and they explicitly agreed. I was surprised to find how much they identified with their characters, and for some of them, it became the most important character they ever played, before or after. Still, today, I would only do this with novice players, because the joys of character building often create a much stronger bond between player and character.

It seems you have a bad fit here, or a lose-lose situation. Your DM is adamant with the very specific type of game he wants to run, and you are adamant in not liking the setup.

[Sierim]

Um, wow.

You've stated the main reason you allow this individual to DM is you like to be a player, but it sounds like in this case you don't even get to do that. I assume in other games with this DM this hasn't (always) been an issue, and in order to maintain the option of playing as a character, you've decided to grin and bear it. Honestly, it sounds like an unhealthy social interaction, not really a game problem.

If I had a similar situation, I'd cut my losses (I leave a swath of burned bridges in my wake :smallwink:), but if that's not an option you'd accept, I don't know what to tell you.

[Acanous]

don't you need to have the XP to wish-loop if you start it by casting yourself?Or was the Wish-loop contingeant on chain-gate?

[HalfGrammarGeek]

Repeat we CANNOT rely on the DM making healing wands available to keep us in positive health and we cannot rely on any of his NPCs.
What makes you think so? Your DM's already saved the wujen by fiat, so unless there's more to this scenario, I'm betting he won't let any of you die. At least until he finally gives up, and lets the campaign die.

Also, this:

The Wu Jen must be like, your best blood brother buddy of all time out-of-game, because I can't understand why you would want to spend game time with him otherwise.

Your DM, on the other hand, just needs either less medication or more.

[HalfGrammarGeek]

But because we (mainly) live in a small town with very few people who are willing to play, it's hard to find other players to join the group. It also doesn't help when one has had severe falling outs with other who they know play and as such have not talked to each other for over 8 years.
Oh, my sympathies. :smallfrown:

Maybe it's time to try burying the hatchet?

Or, as problematic as they are in their own way, join an online game?

Or apply for a visa?

[Little Brother]

don't you need to have the XP to wish-loop if you start it by casting yourself?Or was the Wish-loop contingeant on chain-gate?You need a Wish to start the Wish loop. There are ways to get wishes without blowing XP. Gating in crap with, let's just say, the Candle of Invocation, LPB a Mirror Mephit, make it make a Simulacrum of an Efreet and give it to you(Or make it make a Simulacrum of itself, give it to you, and then make the Simulacrum make a Simulacrum of an Efreet). There, you have 3 wishes/day, which you can use to start the loop. You can obviously make the Simulacrum mephit make a Simulacrum of its original, give it to you, rinse, repeat for arbitrary numbers of Simulacrums.

And you can just turn a wish into a scroll of Gate, and then you've got a chain-gating. Speaking of which, how can you pump your CL for scrolls? Ioun Stone, but how else?

[Malak'ai]

What makes you think so? Your DM's already saved the wujen by fiat, so unless there's more to this scenario, I'm betting he won't let any of you die. At least until he finally gives up, and lets the campaign die.

Also, this:

Past experiance with this DM... He give out little gold (i'm meaning 50-100 gold for a chain devil) and is as stingy(sp) with magic items... When we started this game, we had 2 silver and 18 copper between us plus the scraps of equipment we had to roll for

[Malachei]

Past experiance with this DM... He give out little gold (i'm meaning 50-100 gold for a chain devil) and is as stingy(sp) with magic items... When we started this game, we had 2 silver and 18 copper between us plus the scraps of equipment we had to roll for

Now I'm wondering whether the DM I mentioned in my post above has moved to your place ten years ago.

[Malak'ai]

Lol, maybe to another part, but this guy was born and raised here.
And as to your post earlier, as I've said, if we had a bit more lee-way in creating our characters, or being able to actually choose from the options he gave, it would have been alot better and some of our frustration would have been mitigated. It's that fact we didn't have any freedom in what characters we could make thats hacked us right off

[Malachei]

Lol, maybe to another part, but this guy was born and raised here.
And as to your post earlier, as I've said, if we had a bit more lee-way in creating our characters, or being able to actually choose from the options he gave, it would have been alot better and some of our frustration would have been mitigated. It's that fact we didn't have any freedom in what characters we could make thats hacked us right off

Well, actually, if players come here after they've tried talking to their DM several times that they're not having fun in the game, something is seriously amiss.

Often, people come seeking advice for questions, such as "How should I approach my DM about this."

But you've did and from what you are saying, your DM does not seem to be interested in offering one inch of compromise. Perhaps he wants to get rid of you so he can play with the other players? Or is everybody in the same boat, i.e. not enjoying the situation?

[Malak'ai]

Dont know about the Wu Jen, but Marlowe and I were definately in the same boat, albeit, he was happier with his character build.
Unfortunately, with Marlowe having gone overseas for atleast a year, the group (including the DM) is down to 3 and we haven't played in 3 weeks... Since the first session actually (this is nothing unusual for this DM either, he'll set time and date for game then cancel for outragious reasons a couple of hours before hand) so it doesn't seem to me that we will actually be continuing with this particular game.
I believe Marlowe started this tread as a bit of a rant/request for help, I added my two cents and have just carried on ranting :smallyuk:

[Malachei]

Playing with him is not fun for you? Still, it happens not often enough? He cancels on short notice? He's not interested in listening to your feedback?

My advice would then be to find another DM, and in the absence of that option, find another player, DM yourself for a while, and then hand-over to that player.

Getting to play with a DM you've trained yourself? Priceless :smallbiggrin:

[Malak'ai]

Me DM'ing again? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooo................ I've run 3 out of the last 5 adventures.... I need a break to just be a PC for a while, let someone else take up the slack.
Marlowe did... for a while until we got to a point where we couldn't really figure out where the game was headed, but apart from him, this other guy is the one one who knows the rules enough to DM.
The guy playing the Wu Jen... well... lets just say he thought of a game, and yeah, thats as far as it got because he had no idea what he was doing.

[Malachei]

thats as far as it got because he had no idea what he was doing.

Good that he's playing the arcane caster then :smallbiggrin:

[Malak'ai]

You mean the Half-Orc Wu Jen with Str 20, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 13, Wis 5 and Cha 11 (all assigned by him) who casts Hail of Stones and Magic Missles at monkeys because they threw a stone at him, gets taken down to like -8hp before a (very) lucky heal check from the Barbarian then mouths off at the Barbarian, gets his butt kicked again, is healed then charges a Goblin caster and 2 Goblin fighters after the Barbarian has already been taken down by them? Yeah, great choice :roach:.

His usual characters have been martial types... Mainly fighters, sometimes with Rogue thrown in... He did play an twf Elven Ranger that was ok, but kept trying to be the tank when we already had a tank (being played by the current DM) that was so optimised I couldn't see where the original build started.

[Malachei]

And now he tries a Wu Jen tank for a change. ;)

[Malak'ai]

A Wu Jen Tank with 7hp, wearing a damaged chain shirt, and using a club and a broken large wooden shield :thog:.
Oh, and the DM has allowed him to cast while arm like that with no rolls for failiar, and not being able to do the somantic parts.

[Malachei]

A Wu Jen Tank with 7hp, wearing a damaged chain shirt, and using a club and a broken large wooden shield :thog:.
Oh, and the DM has allowed him to cast while arm like that with no rolls for failiar, and not being able to do the somantic parts.

You may want to try play-by-post or play-by-skype. This forum has good games, and a recruiting forum here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=51)

[danzibr]

The WuJen player isn't trying to die. This is now he normally acts. It's working even less well this time because he doesn't have AC and hit points to protect him.

His normal approach to things in any encounter is

1st round-charge something. Whether it's done anything hostile or not.

2nd round-get beaten up while screaming for the other players to come help him.

3rd round-lie in a mutilated pile in a puddle of his own blood while moaning about having to make stabilization checks.
This sounds like some players I know.

[Marlowe]

Ｉreally feel bad about letting Ghamin and Sonata's campaign die. However it couldn't have lasted forever with my trip pending. I have to admit that after a turf war between a vestigile not-paladin order， a berserk magical AI and a transplanar construct warlord in an underground cavern system, a hilariously random interdimension portal network, an Undead Barbarian who controls wild animals, a famrhouse loaded with Lovecraftian horrors, a tunnel maze with highly variable gravity, a city populated entirely by CN PC types, A power struggle between city potentates who are all secretly sleeping with each other, a missing princess who may or may not be a Apocalypse Maiden, a quartet of amiably evil NPC adventurers-mercenaries shamelessly ripped from Black Lagoon, a bodyswap subplot involve the PCs and the same, an Ogre who apparently was in Spelljammer with the Bard during their lower-level days, and a laughably varied crew of hirelings I was afraid I was losing control of the plot a little. The zombie Wyvern airforce we were starting to assemble would have been a hoot.

[Malak'ai]

I was really starting to enjoy it as well... CE Dwarf Fighter in magical fullplate, weilding a maul, who urinated on those he killed (if he was able to), riding on a Zomie Wyvern... What more could you want? :smallyuk: . Mind you... The Elven Necromancer with mulitple personalities was a bit on the silly side... Especially when the Paladin personality came out.

[An Enemy Spy]

Does this GM just hate you? That's a pretty insane set of requirements.

[Marlowe]

I think if I'd taken any of those plot hooks and run with them properly it would have been...well, not better. But easier to manage. There's also the thing that I keep making rules errors. Not as many as some, thank god, but I would finish a session, realise the mistake, and feel I'd let the whole game down. Like not realising that Damage Reduction doesn't help against magic. Or that Ray of enfeeblement doesn't stack and xan't reduce someone to str 0.

Plus, D&D with just a DM, one player, and 4 PCs feels very off.

Oh well. Whever they are, I'm sure that Ghamin, Daimler, Sonata, and Starex are having a great time and causing lots of unnecessary collateral damage. And they'll probably still be letting Ghamin and Sonata handle the diplomacy.

EDIT: I just realized. You never actually found out that Ominous Pause CHAD was a magical AI. And now I find I've gone and forgotten the NAME of the Orc “Queen” who turned out to be a Necropolitan Human Battlesorceress ruling the caverns through her half-orc grandkids.

I really should stat out my NPCs more. It's just that kitting them out to proper WBL is so tedious. Rotton the Wizard (note to everyone else, he was actually a sorceror 6/swashbuckler 1. And a poser.) wound up with a +6 cloak of charisma largely because I was too tired by that point to choose a larger number of cheap items.

[Malak'ai]

@ An Enemy Spy: No, he's good friend, just his idea of "good" games are well... yeah, as you can see by the restrictions he has a weird idea of "good".

@ Marlowe: I still have Ghamin and Daimler in my book so they are still somewhere... As to the Orc Empress it was something like Gertrude or Gretta... Can't be bothered searching though a heap of paper now.
I was actually glad we didn't have D & G (the peaople) playing in that one... G and I would probally end in another arguement with the other almost taking a swing at the other and D would take a month to make his charater and then still not know all the rules for it so he would need to spend the whole session searching through the books.
(Glad we killed Bob and... forgot his name... off like we did)

[Little Brother]

Ｉreally feel bad about letting Ghamin and Sonata's campaign die. However it couldn't have lasted forever with my trip pending. I have to admit that after a turf war between a vestigile not-paladin order,TSAB Ground Forces?

a berserk magical AIReinforce?

and a transplanar construct warlordJAIL? :smalleek:
:smalltongue:

[Marlowe]

@ An Enemy Spy: No, he's good friend, just his idea of "good" games are well... yeah, as you can see by the restrictions he has a weird idea of "good".

@ Marlowe: I still have Ghamin and Daimler in my book so they are still somewhere... As to the Orc Empress it was something like Gertrude or Gretta... Can't be bothered searching though a heap of paper now.
I was actually glad we didn't have D & G (the peaople) playing in that one... G and I would probally end in another arguement with the other almost taking a swing at the other and D would take a month to make his charater and then still not know all the rules for it so he would need to spend the whole session searching through the books.
(Glad we killed Bob and... forgot his name... off like we did)

The Orc matriarch was called Kriemhilde Gretchin. That's why I couldn't remember the name. I stole it. I did have a backstory for her (involving a Feeblemind spell and a potion of Transformation), but it never seemed to be relevant to anything.

G character was Roderick. I just found his character "sheet". A sorceror with average intelligence, con 16, chr 13 and cross-class ranks in Ride and Handle Animal. Because a hero must by a Man with a Horse, of course, of course. And I swear to Our Lady of Overwhelming Firepower that if he had not been so obsessive about having a horse I would not have started us off in a prison cell in a loopy dungeon complex within a sealed cavern system. WITH all spell components and with mundane equipment (sans horse) stored in the room next door, of course, in keeping with Incompetent Underling Standard Protocol #3765.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlowe
Ｉreally feel bad about letting Ghamin and Sonata's campaign die. However it couldn't have lasted forever with my trip pending. I have to admit that after a turf war between a vestigile not-paladin order,

TSAB Ground Forces?

Quote:
a berserk magical AI

Reinforce?

Quote:
and a transplanar construct warlord

JAIL?


Nice guesses, but no, I don't steal ONLY from MGLN. And how long would a Reinforce vs Jail Scagletti match last?:smallbiggrin:


Does this GM just hate you? That's a pretty insane set of requirements.
The DM has never forgiven me for The Earthworm Remark. On the other hand, I think he knows he went too far with The Ferret Incident (Redux), so I'd call it a wash.

[Little Brother]

Nice guesses, but no, I don't steal ONLY from MGLN. And how long would a Reinforce vs Jail Scagletti match last?:smallbiggrin:Counting maniacal laughter, stock footage, villain exposition, and the like? About two-thirds of the last episode. Actual combat? About 15 seconds. Tops. I mean, it takes things like the Arc-en-Ciel to actually hurt Rein. Jail wouldn't last a minute.

[Marlowe]

Counting maniacal laughter, stock footage, villain exposition, and the like? About two-thirds of the last episode. Actual combat? About 15 seconds. Tops. I mean, it takes things like the Arc-en-Ciel to actually hurt Rein. Jail wouldn't last a minute.

What's worse is that wasn't even the full Reinforce, so to speak. That was just the corrupted defense subroutine frantically trying to rebuild a combat shell after being hammered, shot, blasted, bisected, dismembered, frozen, shattered, petrified, shattered again, nuked, and eviscerated by the cast.

But yeah, a little off-topic. I just enjoyed typing that list.

EDIT: Forgot "Forcibly teleported into orbit".

[Malak'ai]

Ahhh, Rodrick, thats right... the human trap detornator... I think Ghamin still has that scrap of belt laying around somewhere :smallyuk:.
By the way people, this G person is the someone who was playing the Wu Jen... No matter what er told him about casters, he didn't listen.

[Marlowe]

I should have just had Rod eaten by a Gazebo that time he insisted on interrupting me to say he was throwing open a cell door and walking in. Interrupting me while I was trying to say what was inside.

But the way Ghamin inadvertently disposed of him was much sweeter.

Out of interest, DID Ghamin do anything evil once those two were gone?

[Malak'ai]

Out of interest, DID Ghamin do anything evil once those two were gone?

He did kill a few people for no good reason, but I think I took him in a more sarcastic/"why do I bother" sort of direction in the end... Kinda brought about by that gods damned armour you gave him *grumble grumble damn show tunes grumble grumble*.

I still liked how he sorted "crew" disputes...
"Captain... So n So is doing Such n Such"
"Talk to the Firstmate"
"Mr Maul..." WHAM "Thank you Mr Maul"
(atleasts thats how it went in my head :smallyuk:)

[Marlowe]

What do you mean, you didn't like the armour?

The Adamantine Full-Plate, with the pink glamour, pleasant floral motif, and girlish frills?

The armour that played the theme tune to "Happy Days" everytime you commited an evil act?

The armour that would play "Stars and Stripes Forever "(very loudly) whenever you failed a move silently check?

Who could not love that armour?

[Malak'ai]

Anyone not a NE (just checked the character sheet again, got in wrong earlier) Dwarven Fighter with a Dex of 6?

Would you consider trashing those suits of bronze(?) armour and taking the helmets off all those skeletons, crushing the skulls and then putting the helmets back on the shoulders, backwards, to be evil? Ooo.. Almost forgot the giving "CE" Daimler the Immovable rod before sending her into many rooms with Sonata.

[Marlowe]

Wait! The armour! We sold it to Gretchin! That's commerce with the Undead! That's an evil act I suppose.

The rest was just Chaotic Naughty.

[Malak'ai]

The rest was just Chaotic Naughty.

And damn funny :smalltongue:.

Oh, and consorting with Vampires... Daimler seemed to be very heppy that morning :smalltongue:.

[Rejakor]

Um, why is everyone being down on this DM for running a low power, themed campaign? Those can work really well and be heaps of fun.

As long as you make the fights easier, of course.


As for the party, instead of turning yourselves into a standard generic dnd party by the installment plan, why not focus on your strengths?

UMD + Wands of Cure Light Wounds can very easily fill the 'healer' role, using stealth can make lack of buffing less of an issue, and your Wu Jen guy sounds like he needs someone to sit down with him and point out the good spells on his list - he'll warm up to caster tactics the first time he colour sprays a corridor full of goblins into unconsciousness.

[Marlowe]

Um, why is everyone being down on this DM for running a low power, themed campaign? Those can work really well and be heaps of fun.

As long as you make the fights easier, of course. He's not doing that. He's removing player choice from character construction and his randomised equipment made no sense at all. A heavy wooden shield on an archer rogue? A studded leather outfit on a WuJen? Also, note that of the classes we might have started with, two are full casters, two are partial casters. This isn't low-magic, low-power, it's just nonsensical.



As for the party, instead of turning yourselves into a standard generic dnd party by the installment plan, why not focus on your strengths? Because a Rogue/Shugenja and a Barbarian/Cleric (my starting suggestions)are such cookie-cutter, common, generic builds.




UMD + Wands of Cure Light Wounds can very easily fill the 'healer' role, using stealth can make lack of buffing less of an issue, and your Wu Jen guy sounds like he needs someone to sit down with him and point out the good spells on his list - he'll warm up to caster tactics the first time he colour sprays a corridor full of goblins into unconsciousness. This guy doesn't hand out wands. Or the cash to buy them. WuJens don't get Colour Spray. Or "good spells". The working defination of a WuJen is a wizard without any good spells. As for the player, we have years of experience at trying to "sit down with him" and get him to listen.

I'm going to have to ask if you actually read the thread before you answered.

[Malak'ai]

Damn, Marlowe Swordsaged me...



UMD + Wands of Cure Light Wounds can very easily fill the 'healer' role

This would be a great way to get around the healing problem if it was an option, the DM does NOT give standard treasure for kills or anything, as I stated earlier, 100pg for killing a Chain Devil?
If we were to take this option, we would be lvl 7 or 8 before we could afford 1 WoCLW's.

And as for why we were annoyed, it was all the choice of Race/Class was taken away from us, we had to roll on a table (which we never got to see) and were told what we were.
IF we had of had the choice, even with race/class restrictions still in force, it would have ben better, I probally would have gone a Halfling Ranger focusing on hiding and archery.