[3.5] Of Killing a Prismatic Dragon

[Chained Birds]

Me and a friend of mine were talking about our favorite D&D monsters. My friend then challenged me to find a way to defeat a Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm), his favorite monster. He claims that the creature is probably one of the strongest monsters in D&D and challenged me to find a way (or multiple ways) to take it down.

So now I'm here asking for assistance in felling the mighty dragon with the following tools at our disposal.

1) Core only. My friend is one of those "Monks can play D&D by themselves seeing as they can do anything they want; minus casting spells" sort of guys, and believes stuff like Dragon Magazine and Tome of Battle ruined the balance of the game. So, pretty much anything on the SRD minus the variant stuff is usable.

2) The Dragon will be of Great Wyrm age and CR. We're going for the biggest one available. Use the creature Challenge Rating (66) to determine what level(s) your character(s) can be in order to defeat it. I apologize for not setting any specifics; I haven't delved much into Epic and have no idea what would be the appropriate ECL or appropriate number of characters needed in order to fight this creature. I hope someone might be able to share their wisdom on this matter.

EDIT: 3) Concerning the Dragon's Intelligence, I'd say he would behave like a BBEG. He is not just a Stat Block, the block is only there to show what resources he would have available at all times. He will most likely be buffed before battle with some preventive measures using what resources he has listed, either via spells or magic items. He will use his strongest stuff against the most perceived threat (usually the main spellcaster of the group) and will most likely have allies alongside him at all time (Via Gate, just buying them off with his own insane amount of loot, or some form of domination via Wish or actual Dominate). He will not be abusing Wish Loops or Chain-Gating or other broken mechanics that one could usually finagle by this level, as he is supposed to still be winnable even without breaking the game in turn.

------

So my fellow Playgrounds, will you help me slaying the great dragon? If you have any further questions, I'll try to answer them.

Ways to Kill List

1. Epic Spellcasting with Chain-Gating Solars or Leadership/Epic Leadership to mitigate cost.
- Afflict seed - Dexterity damage to immobilize the dragon totally (easiest - only 10 dexterity)
- Destroy seed - works like disintegrate
- Energy seed - energy damage
- Slay seed - either outright killing, or negative levels
- Summon seed - summon Bahamut, Tiamat, Asmodeus, or other powerful outsider. (combine with the Compel seed, as any unique outsider you summon does not need to obey you. The Compel seed can force them to, assuming they aren't immune to mind-affecting effects [all gods are though])

2. Dropping Heavy objects via Bags of Holding or Portable Holes and the like, and causing Falling Damage. No Cap damage means death from above with no saves. A literal, "Rocks Falls" scenario for the enemy.

3. Druid's Poison Spell has the weird quirk of having the save DC scale by caster level, so at level 66 you can be looking at something like.. 61 Druid levels + 8 Heirophant (Spell Power choices, the 5th level is Divine Reach) + 4 Bead of Karma + 1 Orange Ioun Stone = CL 74. Half that is 37, plus the 10 base is a DC of 47 before applying your Wisdom modifier. Should be feasible to get that to a point where the Dragon has to worry about it, although pushing it into needs-a-20 territory probably requires Epic Spell (ab)use to create an Epic Owl's Wisdom spell.

4. Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking) + Whatever you want, you've got 5d4 rounds.

5. Shadowpocolypse! Command a Shadow with Rebuke Undead to make more Shadows until you have (arbitrarily high number of Shadows). Send at least 450 Shadows to take out dragon.

6.

[Flickerdart]

Well, to get this out of the way right now...
0: Wizard 21, Epic Spellcasting. Chain-gate Solars, use them to mitigate a spell that kills a Prismatic Dragon at unlimited range, no save, no SR, no takesies-backsies.

[Jeraa]

With epic spellcasting, killing the dragon can be laughably easy. It would probably be best to not allow epic spells.


0: Wizard 21, Epic Spellcasting. Chain-gate Solars, use them to mitigate a spell that kills a Prismatic Dragon at unlimited range, no save, no SR, no takesies-backsies.

Specifically, the Slay seed, which kills a creature of 80 hit dice. A great wyrm prismatic dragon has 78 hit dice. I don't know about the no save/no SR, but you can boost the save to higher then the dragon can make except on a natural 20, and can boost your caster level to overcome the dragons SR.

So a spell that will kill the dragon on a failed save, that the dragon can only save against by rolling a natural 20, is a standard action to cast, and that boosts your caster level enough to automatically bypass the dragons SR. I believe that all totals a spellcraft DC of 315.

Now for the mitigating factors. All solars can cast 9th level divine spells. Each 9th level slot that the epic spell requires reduces the spellcraft DC by 17. By requiring 19 9th level slots to be expended (An so needing 19 solars or other casters capable of casting a 9th level spell), you can bring the spellcraft DC of your Dragon Killing spell down to 0. Because the time, cost, and XP needed to develop an epic spell is dependant on the spells spell craft DC, this spell is developed instantly, for free, and at no XP cost.

[Doorhandle]

I don't think create demiplane is in core either, so I have no idea for other ways you could go about it.

Maybe find a way to lift the dragon's multi-ton weight and swing it as an improvised weapon? They break on a natural 1, whatever that means.

Or an insanely high diplomacy mof. Talk it into suicide!

Or the leadership feat, and hundreds of adepts all casting magic missile. 500+D4 force damage can kill basically anything.
Edit: hokay, anything does not include great wyrms. ... Can the tarresque be dominated? If so, use him as a Sheild!

Also, quick draw lets you throw vials as a free action. Spend all your WBL on alcelmists' fire, grab all your buddies with alchelmit's fire, and bury the beast in chemical fire.

[Absol197]

Have a half-orc fighter fly up its nose, and get petrified when the dragon uses its breath weapon. I had this happen once in a campaign I was running. That was the one breath weapon effect the dragon didn't want...


Or the leadership feat, and hundreds of adepts all casting magic missile. 500+D4 force damage can kill basically anything.

The problem with this is spell resistance. How many of those adepts are likely to beat a great wyrm's SR 86?

[Doorhandle]

...uh oh. *vanced!*

[Averis Vol]

wouldn't a mailman build shatter this bugger into a thousand brilliantly glowing pieces? even if you consider the required spell's "outside of core" just research and make em yourself. completely core rule and complete core destruction.

[Flickerdart]

Well, let's take a look at its weaknesses, in Core:
1) Low touch AC. 29 should be trivial to hit, and it doesn't have access to Scintillating Scales.
2) Craptastic immunities. This CR66 creature's only immunity is to light and blindness. It has 10 Dexterity.
3) Poor spell selection. The sample one took Spell Knowledge 4 times and still didn't take Foresight or Shapechange.
4) Slow. Your basic Phantom Steed is almost as fast, and more maneuverable. With a couple of buffs on the Steed, you should be able to outrun the dragon if you want.
5) Unreactive. Despite being a huge level, the dragon has an initiative of +0, and no Foresight, meaning that the PC should always go first.

Control Weather would be a powerful tool against the dragon - flying creatures are considered 1 size category smaller for weather, so that knocks him down to Colossal, which means tornado winds will blow him back unless he lands. It's one of the most effective battlefield control tools you'll have but needs to be prepared ahead of time.

[Chained Birds]

Well, let's take a look at its weaknesses, in Core:
1) Low touch AC. 29 should be trivial to hit, and it doesn't have access to Scintillating Scales.
2) Craptastic immunities. This CR66 creature's only immunity is to light and blindness. It has 10 Dexterity.
3) Poor spell selection. The sample one took Spell Knowledge 4 times and still didn't take Foresight or Shapechange.
4) Slow. Your basic Phantom Steed is almost as fast, and more maneuverable. With a couple of buffs on the Steed, you should be able to outrun the dragon if you want.
5) Unreactive. Despite being a huge level, the dragon has an initiative of +0, and no Foresight, meaning that the PC should always go first.

Nice breakdown about the weaknesses to the creature regardless of its CR.


Control Weather would be a powerful tool against the dragon - flying creatures are considered 1 size category smaller for weather, so that knocks him down to Colossal, which means tornado winds will blow him back unless he lands. It's one of the most effective battlefield control tools you'll have but needs to be prepared ahead of time.

So Control Weather will Ground the Creature Making it easier to deal with. Though that doesn't actually slay the creature, just immobilize it.


Have a half-orc fighter fly up its nose, and get petrified when the dragon uses its breath weapon. I had this happen once in a campaign I was running. That was the one breath weapon effect the dragon didn't want...

Nice story, though I'm looking for more repeatable actions that will almost always guarantee a successful slaying.


Specifically, the Slay seed, which kills a creature of 80 hit dice. A great wyrm prismatic dragon has 78 hit dice. I don't know about the no save/no SR, but you can boost the save to higher then the dragon can make except on a natural 20, and can boost your caster level to overcome the dragons SR.

So a spell that will kill the dragon on a failed save, that the dragon can only save against by rolling a natural 20, is a standard action to cast, and that boosts your caster level enough to automatically bypass the dragons SR. I believe that all totals a spellcraft DC of 315.

Now for the mitigating factors. All solars can cast 9th level divine spells. Each 9th level slot that the epic spell requires reduces the spellcraft DC by 17. By requiring 19 9th level slots to be expended (An so needing 19 solars or other casters capable of casting a 9th level spell), you can bring the spellcraft DC of your Dragon Killing spell down to 0. Because the time, cost, and XP needed to develop an epic spell is dependant on the spells spell craft DC, this spell is developed instantly, for free, and at no XP cost.

I see, so an Epic Spell with the Slay Seed with Chain-Gating to mitigate Costs. I'll place this one on the list!

[Jeraa]

It doesn't have to be the Slay seed. You could also use:

Afflict seed - Dexterity damage to immobilize the dragon totally (easiest - only 10 dexterity)
Destroy seed - works like disintegrate
Energy seed - energy damage
Slay seed - either outright killing, or negative levels
Summon seed - summon Bahamut, Tiamat, Asmodeus, or other powerful outsider. (combine with the Compel seed, as any unique outsider you summon does not need to obey you. The Compel seed can force them to, assuming they aren't immune to mind-affecting effects [all gods are though])

Likewise, chain-gating solars isn't necessary. Leadership and Epic Leadership can provide followers/cohorts that can help mitigate the spellcraft DC. Expending 20,000xp can lower the DC by 200, and backlash damage (the caster of the spell takes damage) can lower it as well.

So the way to kill a Prismatic Dragon should just be "Epic Spellcasting". THe spell I posted earlier is just one specific way epic spellcasting can be used.

[Doc_Pippin]

Or be an expert Elven basket weaver and spend your whole life making and selling baskets then buy 1 million level 20 mercs to rid yourself of the original problem....

to really grind his gears a non-core easy kill on a P. dragon is frostburn's Shivering Touch spell it make it helpless with ease

[Chained Birds]

It doesn't have to be the Slay seed. You could also use:

Afflict seed - Dexterity damage to immobilize the dragon totally (easiest - only 10 dexterity)
Destroy seed - works like disintegrate
Energy seed - energy damage
Slay seed - either outright killing, or negative levels
Summon seed - summon Bahamut, Tiamat, Asmodeus, or other powerful outsider. (combine with the Compel seed, as any unique outsider you summon does not need to obey you. The Compel seed can force them to, assuming they aren't immune to mind-affecting effects [all gods are though])

Likewise, chain-gating solars isn't necessary. Leadership and Epic Leadership can provide followers/cohorts that can help mitigate the spellcraft DC. Expending 20,000xp can lower the DC by 200, and backlash damage (the caster of the spell takes damage) can lower it as well.

So the way to kill a Prismatic Dragon should just be "Epic Spellcasting". THe spell I posted earlier is just one specific way epic spellcasting can be used.

Changed it to include all Epic Spellcasting in general, plus used your Seed Summary.

[Doc_Pippin]

Another Core F***!!!! you is the Candle of invocation insanity

8400 GP I summon an Efreet and its compelled to give me three wishs, first wish for more candles of invocation second wish the dragon out of exsistance, third wish your DM would stop throwing books at you

[Flickerdart]

Another Core F***!!!! you is the Candle of invocation insanity

8400 GP I summon an Efreet and its compelled to give me three wishs, first wish for more candles of invocation second wish the dragon out of exsistance, third wish your DM would stop throwing books at you
Beyond the power of Wish. Fails.

[Doc_Pippin]

Beyond the power of Wish. Fails.

Even if your DM wants to argue the Point you have never ending wishes for 8400 GP you can win at everything forever period no save no SR do not pass go do not collect $200

DM: Can't wish it out of exsistance

You: Ok I use X amount of my ever growing pile of candles each of which gives me 3 wishes to accumulate 10^googlith power money and buy 100 Lvl 99 uber wizards from the plane of uber epic destruction and they make him explode into an entertaining spray of confetti again done

[Justyn]

Beyond the power of Wish. Fails.

Not by RAW. Oh, it kicks the RAI right in the nuts, but as written? Perfectly legal.

[Doc_Pippin]

Another core cheese is the Sorc & druid pals

Sorcerer polymorphs self into an animal

Druid Awakens Sorcerer

Sorcerer dispels polymorph and has gained Cha and 2HD...

Lather rinse repeat

Sorcerer now has +X Cha and +Y HD his spells are far beyond the Dragons ability to resist

[Axinian]

Not by RAW. Oh, it kicks the RAI right in the nuts, but as written? Perfectly legal.

Guys, I think he was referring to the DM book throwing part? Wish can't stop that.

[Doc_Pippin]

Ok I respond by using the most powerful graphics software system to make it seem as if he wasn't throwing books....


IMAGINATION

[Randomguy]

Keep in mind that a prismatic dragon is also an epic level sorcerer, and as such qualifies for epic spellcasting. If played to it's intelligence, it'd have wards against wish, and against disjunction, and against... everything, really. It also has the previously mentioned polymorph +awaken strategy available to it.

[Flickerdart]

Not by RAW. Oh, it kicks the RAI right in the nuts, but as written? Perfectly legal.
No, the RAW of Wish is "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)" So you're giving the DM license to screw with you, or if he's lazy just say "the Wish spell duplicates a Finger of Death, the dragon makes its save." Then the dragon knows it's under attack, puts up a Death Ward and goes to sleep because subsequent Fingers of Death are powerless against it.


Even if your DM wants to argue the Point you have never ending wishes for 8400 GP you can win at everything forever period no save no SR do not pass go do not collect $200

DM: Can't wish it out of exsistance

You: Ok I use X amount of my ever growing pile of candles each of which gives me 3 wishes to accumulate 10^googlith power money and buy 100 Lvl 99 uber wizards from the plane of uber epic destruction and they make him explode into an entertaining spray of confetti again done
The wizards don't need your money. They've broken WBL ages ago. Gold means nothing to them.

[Suddo]

Keep in mind that a prismatic dragon is also an epic level sorcerer, and as such qualifies for epic spellcasting. If played to it's intelligence, it'd have wards against wish, and against disjunction, and against... everything, really. It also has the previously mentioned polymorph +awaken strategy available to it.

Yeah... How is the dragon being played? Is it being played as the little stat block says or by some other form? Are we using Epic Handbook (not sure if its SRD or not). Also, because I'm terrible at how this system works, what does CR66 mean? Does it mean we get a party of Level 66 guys? 1 Level 66 Guys? How does leadership effect this? How do we calculate based on divisions? All these are important. Because in the end I think a Wizard/Psionic who True Mind Swaped with something big and stupid is going to probably win. Even in a mildly fair fight if we play with the default statblock.

Edit: Actually I just noticed the first, and main question, is the dragon beign played intelligently, is even more important due to the fact it has Wish and Gate (in its default statblock). Meaning we have to out Wish and Gate it if we hope to win.

[Chained Birds]

Another core cheese is the Sorc & druid pals

Sorcerer polymorphs self into an animal

Druid Awakens Sorcerer

Sorcerer dispels polymorph and has gained Cha and 2HD...

Lather rinse repeat

Sorcerer now has +X Cha and +Y HD his spells are far beyond the Dragons ability to resist

Wouldn't all that HD make you beyond the CR of the dragon, thus not qualified for this Thought Experiment (I think that's what these sorts of things are called).

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't all that HD make you beyond the CR of the dragon, thus not qualified for this Thought Experiment (I think that's what these sorts of things are called).
No, you can burn the HD away with some wights. The Sorcerer will end up as a cat or something, but he will have NI Charisma, plus a fat stack of Intelligence if the Druid uses Maximize, Empower or Intensify.

[Jeraa]

Also, because I'm terrible at how this system works, what does CR66 mean? Does it mean we get a party of Level 66 guys? 1 Level 66 Guys?

A Challenge Rating 66 creature is supposed to be a challenge for a group of 4 level 66 characters. That is, its supposed to be beaten after consuming roughly 20% of the parties resources (hit points/spells/magic item charges/etc.)

Which obviously adds another way to kill the dragon - a party of level 66 characters. Its strong, but the dragon its just the same as all other monsters - its there to be killed by a level appropriate party. No different from a level 20 party killing a CR 20 dragon.

[Doc_Pippin]

Yes and no the hit dice are not effect character level they are just bonus HP because your gaining Animal Hit dice through a spell effect not character levels through exp.

As for the 'Wish' issues again UNLIMITED FREE WISHES if at first you don't succeed you have the power to continually change stratagy and do anything through the power of gold and 10 googel gold can beat any CR. Buy the best items buy the best merc's buy the world and slaughter all the dragons food. What the critics miss here is you can't counter it because if you could the creature would be able to counter EVERY POSSIBLE solution to every problem ever and be pun-pun which isn't core and thus impossible if it has a weakness EVER!!!! the candle of invocation cheese machine will beat the poop out of it.


EDIT: if your DM pulls the NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!! you can'ts do that because I love this dragon and it make me sad to see it die card!!!!!!! Stop it!!!! Your stupid!!!! childish reasoning behind your supposed inability to stop the dragon.... ITS a DRAGON, Dragon's Hoard you can buy the dragon as a pet with that much gold. Even if it didn't need the gold, it would want the gold...

[killianh]

What is the level cap on the Character(s)? A level 200 commoner with a broken beer bottle could take it out if given enough time.

as for what could beat it I've seen it happen twice:

Once with a Barbarian 10\bear warrior 10\frenzied berserker 10
and again with
Wizard 12\IofSFV 10

both times there were no tricks involved. Just a decent build and slightly above average rolls

[Flickerdart]

Yes and no the hit dice are not effect character level they are just bonus HP because your gaining Animal Hit dice through a spell effect not character levels through exp.

As for the 'Wish' issues again UNLIMITED FREE WISHES if at first you don't succeed you have the power to continually change stratagy and do anything through the power of gold and 10 googel gold can beat any CR. Buy the best items buy the best merc's buy the world and slaughter all the dragons food. What the critics miss here is you can't counter it because if you could the creature would be able to counter EVERY POSSIBLE solution to every problem ever and be pun-pun which isn't core and thus impossible if it has a weakness EVER!!!! the candle of invocation cheese machine will beat the poop out of it.
You appear to be confused.

The dragon doesn't need to "counter every possible solution". The dragon is a level 38 Sorcerer. Once he notices that you're doing anything to him, he will bring this to bear against you, and Wish will not save you from the Epic spell he would have had time to research over the 2400 years he was a dragon, using the piles of money dragons have.

Your first strike against the dragon will also be your last, because if you don't kill him, you've given yourself away, and he will find you.


as for what could beat it I've seen it happen twice:

Once with a Barbarian 10\bear warrior 10\frenzied berserker 10
and again with
Wizard 12\IofSFV 10

both times there were no tricks involved. Just a decent build and slightly above average rolls
The challenge is SRD only. The material you mention is irrelevant.

[Jeraa]

What is the level cap on the Character(s)? A level 200 commoner with a broken beer bottle could take it out if given enough time.

The first post in the thread does say:


Use the creature Challenge Rating (66) to determine what level(s) your character(s) can be in order to defeat it.

So I would assume around level 66 at most. Maybe a few levels higher if you go for a single character instead of a party.


1) Core only. My friend is one of those "Monks can play D&D by themselves seeing as they can do anything they want; minus casting spells" sort of guys, and believes stuff like Dragon Magazine and Tome of Battle ruined the balance of the game. So, pretty much anything on the SRD minus the variant stuff is usable.

Does "variant stuff" include psionics? While it isn't core, it is in the SRD.

[Chained Birds]

Concerning the Dragon Intelligence, I'd say he would behave like a BBEG.

He is not just a Stat Block, the block is only there to show what resources he would have available at all times. He will most likely be buffed before battle with some preventive measures using what resources he has listed, either via spells or magic items. He will use his strongest stuff against the most perceived threat (usually the main spellcaster of the group) and will most likely have allies alongside him at all time (Via Gate, just buying them off with his own insane amount of loot, or some form of domination via Wish or actual Dominate). He will not be abusing Wish Loops or Chain-Gating or other broken mechanics that one could usually finagle by this level, as he is supposed to still be winnable even without breaking the game in turn.

I hope that was enough information.

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Concerning the Wish Loop, I don't see how that directly leads to a Slay against the dragon. Seems like he would just sleep off any Wish oriented effect against him until there were no Efreets left to summon to continue the loop. The "Epic Spellcasting" thing works because it directly causes a Slay or will cause a Slay via summoning a Deity to do the dirty deed or reducing the Dragon to a living rock.

[Justyn]

No, the RAW of Wish is "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

Original thing still works by Rules As Written.

[Doc_Pippin]

You appear to be confused.

The dragon doesn't need to "counter every possible solution". The dragon is a level 38 Sorcerer. Once he notices that you're doing anything to him, he will bring this to bear against you, and Wish will not save you from the Epic spell he would have had time to research over the 2400 years he was a dragon, using the piles of money dragons have.

Your first strike against the dragon will also be your last, because if you don't kill him, you've given yourself away, and he will find you.


The challenge is SRD only. The material you mention is irrelevant.

With Unlimited wishes you can strike from location X with Items Y protecting you from dragon response Z because YOU OWN EVERYTHING EVER Take every uper epic Item... You own it, every UBER EPIC SPELL buff/ debuff you have a slotless Magic Item that continually effects you with it. Every class you have epic Mercs in them protecting you. The Point being you can never lose because Wizards didn't anticipate the rediculousness of the item

[Flickerdart]

Yes and no the hit dice are not effect character level they are just bonus HP because your gaining Animal Hit dice through a spell effect not character levels through exp.

Forgot to address this...HD is HD, doesn't matter where you gain it from. They are real hit dice that really raise your real level. For real. There are plenty of spells that alter ECL, such as Awaken Construct and Mineralize Warrior.


Original thing still works by Rules As Written.
Except it doesn't. The rules as written say "you can try this but it's not gonna work for sure". It's pretty blatantly obvious.


With Unlimited wishes you can strike from location X with Items Y protecting you from dragon response Z because YOU OWN EVERYTHING EVER Take every uper epic Item... You own it, every UBER EPIC SPELL buff/ debuff you have a slotless Magic Item that continually effects you with it. Every class you have epic Mercs in them protecting you. The Point being you can never lose because Wizards didn't anticipate the rediculousness of the item
That's not what Wish does. The cap on magic items you can create with it is sharply limited, and just wishing for gold to buy custom items with...who's going to sell them to you, or craft them for you? Who's going to research those epic spells for you? Nobody. Nobody at the level you need cares about money, because they're epic level NPCs who could just use the same loop. Or kill you and take your stuff. Or may or may not exist, depending on the GM's world.

There's a difference between TO (which assumes that a DM will obey the RAW) and being stupid (which assumes that the DM will build his world around your desires). If there are no level billionty characters in the game world, no amount of wishes will create them for you.

[Doc_Pippin]

By RAW with the Candle of Invocation Cheese Machine you can have a weapon suitable for a lvl 9999 character that auto kills everything ever simply because you can afford it. Thus because the CoI makes you pun-Pun with Bracers of Armor (Deflection)+9999 Cloak of Resistance+9999 and Ring of Spell Resistance +9999 Boots of immune to every Energy ever and Belt of Magnificence +1 billion

YOU WIN FOREVER AT EVERYTHING!!!! PEriod thus your argument is invalid because my mustache has a windmill

http://www.nastyhobbit.org/data/media/13/windmill-beard.jpg

[Jeraa]

That's not what Wish does. The cap on magic items you can create with it is sharply limited, and just wishing for gold to buy custom items with...who's going to sell them to you, or craft them for you?


There is no cap on magic item creation. Creating mundane items has a cap of 25,000 gp worth, but there is no cap listed for magical items. Normally, this is balanced by an increased XP cost, but spell like abilities have no XP costs. By RAW, there is no limit to the cost of a magic item a wish can make if it comes from a spell-like ability.

[Doorhandle]

Hmmm... Falling-object damage is hilariously borked in 3.5, right?

Get several bags of holding. Fill them with heavy material of any sort (stone is ideal: heavy and cheap)... Fly over the dragon in the 6-seconds before your annihilation. Drop hundreds of tonnes of lead on it and it will go down. Get summons to help, If possible. Alternately, go into a cave, smash the supports, pancake the dragon. He never said you have to survive…. Although a quickened teleport could help.

Any core poisons that do dexterity damage? Dexterity 10 really is terrible in this regard.

Also, how high can you boost your spellcasting D.Cs? Could you dominate it, just to rub it in to the G.M? Granted, it gets spell-resistance, But I assume anything with enough power to make it actually fail it's save has spell penetration of "yes."

[Doc_Pippin]

There is no cap on magic item creation. Creating mundane items has a cap of 25,000 gp worth, but there is no cap listed for magical items. Normally, this is balanced by an increased XP cost, but spell like abilities have no XP costs. By RAW, there is no limit to the cost of a magic item a wish can make if it comes from a spell-like ability.

Thank you

also

The Reason they price EPIC Items is because its a game and they have to continue a common currancy your logic into the situation is flawed because D&D economics are flawed and illogical. RAW I win RAI I win because it is a world void of chaos theory thus One can plan and adhere to set boundries and thus win with infinate loops. With my trick a level 5 character beats the game just as any level 20+ basketweaver beats the game because its flawed.

[Jeraa]

Any core poisons that do dexterity damage? Dexterity 10 really is terrible in this regard.

Maybe, but not like it matters. The dragon has a +68 modifier on its fortitude saves. It can easily pass any fortitude save against poison (unless it rolls a natural 1, of course).

[Flickerdart]

The Reason they price EPIC Items is because its a game and they have to continue a common currancy your logic into the situation is flawed because D&D economics are flawed and illogical. RAW I win RAI I win because it is a world void of chaos theory thus One can plan and adhere to set boundries and thus win with infinate loops. With my trick a level 5 character beats the game just as any level 20+ basketweaver beats the game because its flawed.
They price epic items, yes. They price, for instance, Bracers of Armor up to +15. Anything beyond that is wishful thinking on your part because it's not part of the game.

In other words...you get nothing, you lose, good day sir.

[Doc_Pippin]

Hmmm... Falling-object damage is hilariously borked in 3.5, right?

Get several bags of holding. Fill them with heavy material of any sort (stone is ideal: heavy and cheap)... Fly over the dragon in the 6-seconds before your annihilation. Drop hundreds of tonnes of lead on it and it will go down. Get summons to help, If possible. Alternately, go into a cave, smash the supports, pancake the dragon. He never said you have to survive…. Although a quickened teleport could help.

Any core poisons that do dexterity damage? Dexterity 10 really is terrible in this regard.

Also, how high can you boost your spellcasting D.Cs? Could you dominate it, just to rub it in to the G.M? Granted, it gets spell-resistance, But I assume anything with enough power to make it actually fail it's save has spell penetration of "yes."


Another great point What is to stop you from owning 1 million flying peons each with an epic bag of holding each filled to the max with Anchor feather tokens keyed to the same command word or even all just filled with stones. You can defeat any CR with infinite gold

EDIT: CRUSH THE DRAGON UNDER YOUR GOLD!!!!!!!!!!

[Chained Birds]

Hmmm... Falling-object damage is hilariously borked in 3.5, right?

Get several bags of holding. Fill them with heavy material of any sort (stone is ideal: heavy and cheap)... Fly over the dragon in the 6-seconds before your annihilation. Drop hundreds of tonnes of lead on it and it will go down. Get summons to help, If possible. Alternately, go into a cave, smash the supports, pancake the dragon. He never said you have to survive…. Although a quickened teleport could help.

Any core poisons that do dexterity damage? Dexterity 10 really is terrible in this regard.

Also, how high can you boost your spellcasting D.Cs? Could you dominate it, just to rub it in to the G.M? Granted, it gets spell-resistance, But I assume anything with enough power to make it actually fail it's save has spell penetration of "yes."

I'll give you the Fall Damage. No save, no notice, just pure Xd6 damage based on weight and distance fallen. Makes living in a cave less ideal, especially with all of those Suicide Barbarians taking out the support.

The Poison: I believe there is no poison that this dragon can't save against (Barring the usual 5% chance of fail).

Spell DCs: Epic Spellcasting already does that and is already listed.

[Doc_Pippin]

They price epic items, yes. They price, for instance, Bracers of Armor up to +15. Anything beyond that is wishful thinking on your part because it's not part of the game.

In other words...you get nothing, you lose, good day sir.

O no sir the rules regarding Item creation clearly show that they continue to the nth degree where N is infinite because its all keyed to a gold equation rather that random numbers do the math and any number is possible for the right price you sir fail under the crushing weight of facts.

Effect Base Price Example
Ability bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp Gloves of Dexterity +2
Armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp +1 chainmail
Bonus spell Spell level squared x 1,000 gp Pearl of power
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp Ring of protection +3
AC bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,500 gp Ioun stone, dusty rose prism
Natural armor bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp Amulet of natural armor +1
Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared x 1,000 gp Cloak of resistance +5
Save bonus (other)1 Bonus squared x 2,000 gp Stone of good luck
Skill bonus (competence) Bonus squared x 100 gp Cloak of elvenkind
Spell resistance 10,000 gp per point over SR 12;
SR 13 minimum Mantle of spell resistance
Weapon bonus (enhancement) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp +1 longsword
Spell Effect Base Price Example
Single use, spell completion Spell level x caster level x 25 gp Scroll of haste
Single use, use-activated Spell level x caster level x 50 gp Potion of cure light wounds
50 charges, spell trigger Spell level x caster level x 750 gp Wand of fireball
Command word Spell level x caster level x 1,800 gp Cape of the mountebank
Use-activated or continuous Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp2 Lantern of revealing
Special Base Price Adjustment Example
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day) Boots of teleportation
Uncustomary space limitation3 Multiply entire cost by 1.5 Helm of teleportation
No space limitation4 Multiply entire cost by 2 Ioun stone
Multiple different abilities Multiply higher item cost by 2 Helm of brilliance
Charged (50 charges) 1/2 unlimited use base price Ring of the ram
Component Extra Cost Example
Armor, shield, or weapon Add cost of masterwork item +1 composite longbow
Spell has material component cost Add directly into price of item per charge5 Wand of stoneskin
Spell has XP cost Add 5 gp per 1 XP per charge5 Ring of three wishes
Spell Level: A 0-level spell is half the value of a 1st-level spell for determining price.
1 Such as a luck, insight, sacred, or profane bonus.
2 If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
3 See Body Slot Affinities, below.
4 An item that does not take up one of the spaces on a body costs double.
5 If item is continuous or unlimited, not charged, determine cost as if it had 100 charges. If it has some daily limit, determine as if it had 50 charges.

So to further my point

AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared x 2,000 gp

Bonus = 1 billion cost equals (1,000,000,000^1,000,000,000)x 2000= I WIN and that sir is again RAW

Heck double the price and ow its slotless because heck I CAN

Chained Birds put in the standard capture in bag of holding... stasis+ limited oxygen+ death

And with that I do say CoI Infinate wishes loop wins with a Level 5 Commoner Killing everything ever!

[Acanous]

on a purely theoretical note, is there any way to put a poster on ignore?

Let's see... I'm thinking a Druid should be able to pull this off. Poison is a Druid Spel, Intensify Spell and Quicken Spell can be applied to it. Assuming you can jack your save DC high enough (Quite possible with WBL for lv 66) you can nuke the dragon with two hits of Intensified Poison, which he gets to save against a second time in a minute.
Being a lv 66 Druid, you can do this while in the form of the Terrasque, and your animal companion is another Terrasque. Who was awakened. And is a Druid. Who cast Quickened Intensified Poison and Intensified Poison.

[Calanon]

on a purely theoretical note, is there any way to put a poster on ignore?

Just add them to your ignore list and there comments get filtered out.


Let's see... I'm thinking a Druid should be able to pull this off. Poison is a Druid Spel, Intensify Spell and Quicken Spell can be applied to it. Assuming you can jack your save DC high enough (Quite possible with WBL for lv 66) you can nuke the dragon with two hits of Intensified Poison, which he gets to save against a second time in a minute.
Being a lv 66 Druid, you can do this while in the form of the Terrasque, and your animal companion is another Terrasque. Who was awakened. And is a Druid. Who cast Quickened Intensified Poison and Intensified Poison.

Ermm... Interesting... :smallconfused:

[Chained Birds]

on a purely theoretical note, is there any way to put a poster on ignore?

Let's see... I'm thinking a Druid should be able to pull this off. Poison is a Druid Spel, Intensify Spell and Quicken Spell can be applied to it. Assuming you can jack your save DC high enough (Quite possible with WBL for lv 66) you can nuke the dragon with two hits of Intensified Poison, which he gets to save against a second time in a minute.
Being a lv 66 Druid, you can do this while in the form of the Terrasque, and your animal companion is another Terrasque. Who was awakened. And is a Druid. Who cast Quickened Intensified Poison and Intensified Poison.

One problem is you can't Awaken your animal companion, so only 1 Terrasque for you. Though the intensified Poison deal is fairly interesting. If anyone else can support its efficiency in Slaying the dragon I'll put it on the list.

[tyckspoon]

One problem is you can't Awaken your animal companion, so only 1 Terrasque for you. Though the intensified Poison deal is fairly interesting. If anyone else can support its efficiency in Slaying the dragon I'll put it on the list.

Yeah, actually, I think this one is pretty good. Poison has the weird quirk of having the save DC scale by caster level, so at level 66 you can be looking at something like.. 61 Druid levels + 8 Heirophant (Spell Power choices, the 5th level is Divine Reach) + 4 Bead of Karma + 1 Orange Ioun Stone = CL 74. Half that is 37, plus the 10 base is a DC of 47 before applying your Wisdom modifier. Should be feasible to get that to a point where the Dragon has to worry about it, although pushing it into needs-a-20 territory probably requires Epic Spell (ab)use to create an Epic Owl's Wisdom spell.

The downside is that poison immunity is *really* easy to come by, and you're gambling hard on the dragon not using any of its customization options in spells and items to have acquired it.

[Killer Angel]

There is no cap on magic item creation. Creating mundane items has a cap of 25,000 gp worth, but there is no cap listed for magical items. Normally, this is balanced by an increased XP cost, but spell like abilities have no XP costs. By RAW, there is no limit to the cost of a magic item a wish can make if it comes from a spell-like ability.

While true, you cannot wish for any magic item. The staff of the magi (minor artifact) is explicitly listed as one of those requests that are going to fail somehow.
And epic items can easily fall in this cathegory.

[zlefin]

the SRD says that the bonuses for epic magic weapons/armor can scale indefinitely following the formulas; though some of the wording for the tables contradicts that; so it'd depend on whether or not those scale indefinitely.
I'm not sure what the exact WBL is for level 66; but i'm pretty sure it's rather absurdly high.
Based on formula progression rates; WBL for level 66 shoudl be at least 10 billion; that's a bare minimum; it really should be quite a bit higher than that.
a +300 sword costs 300^2*2000*10 (for epic) = 1.8 billion;
a +300 sword is pretty darn damaging and pretty good at getting thru ac.

In short, WBLmancy alone is gonna be very very broken by level 66; nevermind any shenanigans.
But if you want to figure out waht the WBL is for lvl 66, please let me know so I can refine the items available.
Do note that WBL grows exponentially; while item cost is only a square function (with a *10 boost for epic, but that only happens once)

Even if magic items are limited to ones fonud in the tables; and ti's ruled there is no infinite progression; you could buy an awfully large number of awfully powerful items.
You could buy say; tens of thousands of scrolls of gate and wish.
I haven't looked thru what kind fo stupid items you could equip an army with.
Also note that using feats you can have access to spells of level 40; aka lvl 9s with very metamagic there is.

[Killer Angel]

The easy way: bring some doses of Dust of sneezing and choking.


On a side note...

the Candle of invocation insanity
(snip)

The details of the challenge are uncertain. If we're talking 'bout an arena match, with no prep. time, you would lose badly.

[Justyn]

Except it doesn't. The rules as written say "you can try this but it's not gonna work for sure". It's pretty blatantly obvious.

Your assertation assumes a rational GM, which is something that these thought experiments suspend.
Do you think a rational GM would allow Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)? No.
Do you think a rational GM would bring up "Chungian" Exalted?* No.
Do you think a rational GM would allow this infinite wish-loop? No.
Do you think a rational GM would allow their players to bring the Tippyverse into being? Probably not.

The thing about these threads is that they assume a perfectly compliant GM as a way of proving a point, for almost the exact same reasons physics often assumes a friction-free environment:

For the sake of simplicity.

It's so that every sentence doesn't have to be pretexted with "if the GM allows this...", along with a myriad of other things.

Yes, a sane GM would stomp out this plan the probably before the first loop even finished, or maybe during the second if they're a little slow on the uptake. But the assumed "perfect" GM is here to show the potential for breakdowns in game mechanics, not to bend over to all their players powergaming fantasies.

Anyway, if this has some... oddities in its wording, it's because it's 4am for me, and I'm about to go hit the sack.

* No. I don't expect you to know what this is, but this comparison makes a lot of sense if you look it up.

[Killer Angel]

Your assertation assumes a rational GM, which is something that these thought experiments suspend.
Do you think a rational GM would allow Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869366/The_most_powerful_character._EVER.)? No.
Do you think a rational GM would bring up "Chungian" Exalted?* No.
Do you think a rational GM would allow this infinite wish-loop? No.
Do you think a rational GM would allow their players to bring the Tippyverse into being? Probably not.

The thing about these threads is that they assume a perfectly compliant GM as a way of proving a point, for almost the exact same reasons physics often assumes a friction-free environment:

For the sake of simplicity.


You have a point, but for the same reason, we cannot count on holes in RAW.
By RAW, you have no limit on price of magic items created by wish.
By RAW, you'll have problem creating certain magical items (minor artifacts as the Staff of the magi).
Can you create Epic items? By RAW it's uncertain (unless I'm missing something), so it's safer to don't assume them.

[Justyn]

You have a point, but for the same reason, we cannot count on holes in RAW.
By RAW, you have no limit on price of magic items created by wish.
By RAW, you'll have problem creating certain magical items (minor artifacts as the Staff of the magi).
Can you create Epic items? By RAW it's uncertain, so it's safer to don't assume them.

When you're making that assumption to prove a point about the flaws or breakdowns in the game mechanics as Wish-loops are kind of doing, that's kind of the point: you're pointing out a hole in the system after all. It's satirical.

[Killer Angel]

When you're making that assumption to prove a point about the flaws or breakdowns in the game mechanics as Wish-loops are kind of doing, that's kind of the point: you're pointing out a hole in the system after all. It's satirical.

I won't negate that. :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

i'm pretty sure a level 66 Commoner can kill it with money (using his vast WBL to buy things to kill him, or just fly over him and drop his 10 000 000 000 GP on him... or make it 1 000 000 000 000 CP for sure)

but i guess the point is to find a way to beat him at lower levels?
At level 21 it can be killed with the epic spell.
Anyone got something under it?

[Chained Birds]

I would prefer level 30 or less, but I will note that the nature of being level 66 anything, will net you enough Wealth to pretty much auto-win.

[Kazyan]

I really don't see how a level 30 Ubercharger, plus the requisite lower-level wizard support to get within range without dying, wouldn't be able to one-shot the dragon on a natural 2.

[CTrees]

I really don't see how a level 30 Ubercharger, plus the requisite lower-level wizard support to get within range without dying, wouldn't be able to one-shot the dragon on a natural 2.

Core-only limits the ubercharger, unfortunately. Otherwise shivering touch would be an auto-win.

I'm still not clear on the exact parameters. OP says the dragon is being played intelligently, and the statblock is only indicative of available resources, but... is it using the spell and feat selections exactly as presented in the statblock, or are those being reassigned intelligently? It's the difference between "doable" and "nearly impossible," as fully utilizing its access to epic spellcasting... ouch.

[Red_Dog]

Doc_Pippin=>

First efreeti wishing can and will fail as an Efreeti is compelled to make your wish happen. He/she is not compelled [B]to interpret it right as HE/SHE is making the wish NOT you.

And as long as we are on the RAW part of things. As soon as you GET said candle in your possession, be ready to deal with a souped up Quarut

The one that is all gold and has a Sand clock in his head.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50174.jpg

Its an inevitable made to deal with people who abuse Time&Space magic. Wish abuse is on his/her list of "to murder". The RAW doesn't specify what happens with candle's owner. This is definitely something that will if your DM is worth his/her salt and doesn't just feel like telling you to stop with falling rocks.

And if we just want core, than a Pitfiend/any other powerful creature who happened to posses the next candle that you are wishing for will appear in the square next to yours holding said candle.

Gandariel=>

At level 21 it can be killed with the epic spell.
Anyone got something under it?

Hmmm... Well Flickerdart's Control Weather is a good start. Really any number of immobilizing spells does very nice job as to my knowledge this CR66 creature has no Freedom of Movement.

In a "typical party" that has 2 T1s [cleric & wizard for example], one caster will constantly counterspell him/her and another will force wall him/her from a distance and than drown him/her.

Problem Solved? I mean after you keep the dragon in one place and negate his spellcasting, what else does he/she have? Nothing really.

That's my take on things. ^^

[Chained Birds]

Core-only limits the ubercharger, unfortunately. Otherwise shivering touch would be an auto-win.

I'm still not clear on the exact parameters. OP says the dragon is being played intelligently, and the statblock is only indicative of available resources, but... is it using the spell and feat selections exactly as presented in the statblock, or are those being reassigned intelligently? It's the difference between "doable" and "nearly impossible," as fully utilizing its access to epic spellcasting... ouch.

Hard to answer that. The Powergamer DM in me, who would never allow a dragon to go out into battle with pathetic feat/spell choices, would change the stats to represent a more intelligent creature. The "Doesn't want a TPK" DM in me wouldn't change anything, and use the dragon to its fullest with the belief that the creature will most likely die against an equivalent ECL party.

Would a smart version of this creature be impossible to beat given what it could potentially do?

[Hawk7915]

I really don't see how a level 30 Ubercharger, plus the requisite lower-level wizard support to get within range without dying, wouldn't be able to one-shot the dragon on a natural 2.

I dunno...napkin-mathing it out so far, I'm seeing a level core-only Half-fiend Orc Barbarian/Ranger having serious trouble hitting an AC of 106, even raging and charging, unless they take Epic Prowess for every one of their epic feats. Also keep in mind that in core-only, typical uber-charger feats like Shock Trooper and Leap Attack are off-limits, which puts a cap on how much damage you can deal. The build I was looking at was hoping to dual-wield Scimitars and crit-fish so as to kill the dragon with Devastating Critical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#devastatingCritical), but the attack bonus is pretty hard to cheese thus far. I'll keep at it though, to see if I can get a warrior who can both reliably hit the dragon without a natural 20, and who can get the saving throw versus death to be 72+ (so the dragon has at least some percentage chance of dying).

[NM020110]

Core only? Hmmm...

1.) Polymorph any Object. Cast it twice to make it permanent, and you can get some great power boosts. Make the fighter a Hecatoncheires for a one-hundred attack full attack. Use a source of wishes (candles, planar binding/ally, gate, etc.) to enchant 100 huge-sized weapons as vorpal. Teleport the fighter to the dragon and ask said fighter to full attack with said weapons. Chances are, he will roll a 20 on one of the rolls and kill the dragon outright. Possible at level 15, or earlier if you can get a few scrolls.

It's a variation on scry&die, but without anticipate teleport the dragon should be vulnerable at some point in time.

2.) Poison. Terinav root costs 750 gp, is a contact poison, and deals 1d6/2d6 dex damage. Use some method to introduce the dragon to large quantities of the poison. It will eventually fail a save or two by rolling a natural one. This will paralyze it.

My suggestion is to simply flood the dragon's lair using the stuff. Use the various creation spells to get enough for this. Level...13, maybe? A sufficiently paranoid dragon can defeat this with relative ease, somewhat negating its usefulness.

[Gandariel]

uhm, i was randomly reading the text of Wish.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

So... doesn't specify if it's a Touch spell, or any particular range. it just happens, and you can be wherever you want.
Set up a killing place (antimagic fielded volcano? antimagic fielded vat of acid? place where a thousand Colossal rocks are about to fall? the Plane of Bad things for Dragons? whatever).

If you manage to beat his SR AND his Will save, you can use Wish to transport him in the Killing Place and... well, kill him.

Now, how fast can that be done?

[Doc_Pippin]

By JOE ive got it

Set up a stand that holds open the Bag of devouring below the Dragons bed, when the dragon sleeps use either a portable hole teleport spell or huge pass wall to drop it into the sack. If you actually get it into the sack it loses because as written anything caught by the bag is lost forever.

[Hirax]

Create an epic version of cloudkill. If that's off the table, cloudkill could kill it on its own if you can some how keep it in the cloud, or stockpile enough scrolls to keep casting it wherever it goes. And of course, don't get killed by it.

[Calanon]

Create an epic version of cloudkill. If that's off the table, cloudkill could kill it on its own if you can some how keep it in the cloud, or stockpile enough scrolls to keep casting it wherever it goes. And of course, don't get killed by it.

TOLODINE'S KILLING WIND! :smallbiggrin: But Its a BBEG kind of Dragon so were talking Nicol Bolas kind of guy... Lots of spellcasting, Fights where invariable you WILL die, he is immune to everything except Force damage, and can effectively turn the entire multiverse inside out with a switch of his nose :smallconfused:

The Dragon should have Class levels, Epic Feats, the ability to cast Epic Spells, and in some extremes the ability to come back from the dead in the most dramatic way possible... So pretty much, this fight would take atleast 2-3 campaigns of time (Like 1-2 year of straight RP'ing, maybe less if they no life it). You are Fighting a Dragon, one of the greatest tacticians in all of history, one of the most ferocious predators in all of the multiverse, Something so powerful that even Big T himself wets himself in its wake...

So yeah, a Dragon based Mastermind is VERY powerful, cleaver, and destructive if you really thing about it... So yeah, you are fighting something below a God but DAMN near close...

...Unless we are planning to drown the BBEG dragon in cheese :smallannoyed: as to where my only response is "Damn it playgroud" :smalltongue:

[Rubik]

Toss a portable hole in a bag of holding after you teleport adjacent to the dragon. It'll get excised from reality (and probably thrown wherever it is vestiges go). Of course, so will you, so make sure you use some way of doing this by proxy, such as through a called or summoned critter.

Or you could break a staff of the magi, or another powerful magic item.

If psionics counts, you could always get a cleric friend to Gate in a powerful creature that you can use the Fusion power on to temporarily gestalt with it. Then you can use Astral Seed and kill yourself after you unFusion. Then when you come back you've still got all of your manifester levels and racial abilities, but you've also got all of the racial abilities of the monster that was Gated in. If the caster had a high enough CL (such as through Consumptive Field or summat), then he could Gate in a prismatic dragon to do this with. Note that you can do this multiple times to get insanely high stats and tons of epic abilities (since you can control up to 2 HD per CL, and you can Gate in anything of any power level you like so long as it's not unique in nature).

Then you can just go curbstomp it. Note that you can do this pre-epic.

[edit] Note that you can use Bestow Curse to age a target, as per the BoVD (and Bestow Curse is a core spell). So have your friend Gate in a young prismatic dragon, Fusion with it, do the Astral Seed thing, and then have your cleric friend Curse you to great wyrm status.

And now you're a psion 20 (?) great wyrm prismatic dragon.

[Chained Birds]

Toss a portable hole in a bag of holding after you teleport adjacent to the dragon. It'll get excised from reality (and probably thrown wherever it is vestiges go). Of course, so will you, so make sure you use some way of doing this by proxy, such as through a called or summoned critter.

Are you referring to this?

http://unicorn.us.com/alex/dnd/superweapon_arrowhead.gif

[Rubik]

Are you referring to this?

http://unicorn.us.com/alex/dnd/superweapon_arrowhead.gifWow. Who came up with that? I'm impressed.

But yes, you could do it that way.

[Cruiser1]

Toss a portable hole in a bag of holding after you teleport adjacent to the dragon. It'll get excised from reality (and probably thrown wherever it is vestiges go).
Doesn't work. All putting a Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole) in a Bag of Holding does is "opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process." The hole and bag are lost, but nearby creatures are only transferred to the Astral Plane. The dragon just casts Plane Shift then Greater Teleport (or Greater Plane Shift if non-core to do it in one round) to return to the fight.

Or you could break a staff of the magi, or another powerful magic item.
Doesn't work either. When the Staff of the Magi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#staffoftheMagi) minor artifact is broken in a retributive strike, all that does is cause "all within 10 feet of the broken staff take hit points of damage equal to 8 times the number of charges in the staff". A fully charged staff does only 400 damage, which barely scratches a Prismatic Dragon. The character breaking the staff has a 50% chance of being destroyed, but not anybody else nearby.

[Rubik]

Doesn't work. All putting a Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole) in a Bag of Holding does is "opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process." The hole and bag are lost, but nearby creatures are only transferred to the Astral Plane. The dragon just casts Plane Shift then Greater Teleport (or Greater Plane Shift if non-core to do it in one round) to return to the fight.The other way around, then. I always get those confused. Toss the bag in the hole.


Doesn't work either. When the Staff of the Magi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#staffoftheMagi) minor artifact is broken in a retributive strike, all that does is cause "all within 10 feet of the broken staff take hit points of damage equal to 8 times the number of charges in the staff". A fully charged staff does only 400 damage, which barely scratches a Prismatic Dragon. The character breaking the staff has a 50% chance of being destroyed, but not anybody else nearby.Was that in 3.0? I recall there were a few items that basically shunted everything in a rather large radius into some sort of fugue non-plane that was impossible to escape.

[Jeraa]

The other way around, then. I always get those confused. Toss the bag in the hole.

Still doesn't work.


If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

Bag into hole: bag and cloth pulled into void and lost forever. Affects nothing else.

Hole into bag: hole, bag, and all creatures within 10' shifted to Astral Plane. hole and bag (but nothing else) destroyed. Dragon still free to planeshift back.

At best, you can delay the dragon by putting the portable hole into the bag of holding. But no actual ham ever comes to the dragon.


Was that in 3.0? I recall there were a few items that basically shunted everything in a rather large radius into some sort of fugue non-plane that was impossible to escape.

You may be thinking of a Sphere on Annihilation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation). Everything that touches one is gone. If destroyed, however, everything within 180 feet is sent to another plane, but nothing would prevent them from just plane shifting back.


A sphere of annihilation is a globe of absolute blackness, a ball of nothingness 2 feet in diameter. The object is actually a hole in the continuity of the multiverse. Any matter that comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, and utterly destroyed. Only the direct intervention of a deity can restore an annihilated character.

But that is a risky idea. The dragon can control the orb just as you can. (1d20 + character level + character Int modifier, vs DC 30, or opposed rolls). With his 78 hit dice and 64 intelligence, the dragon has +105 on his control check.

[Fyermind]

Just thinking out loud here but if we cast a save or X spell the dragon is not immune to that beats it's SR, it has a 5% chance of failing. If we do that 100 times it has a 99.4% chance of failing.

Now, my spell of choice is cloudkill. Why? It overcomes spell resistance. It is an area effect, and can be cast during time stop. It does bad stuff if you cast it enough times.

The prismatic dragon as 65 constitution. So if we really want it dead we should cast cloudkill on it 6,500 times. That can be reduced by maximizing it (now a level 8 spell) to 1,700 castings. Timestop has a duration of 1d4+1 "rounds" or at least two rounds. On the last round of timestop we cast timestop again. 1702 castings of timestop guarantee that our caster will be timestopped for the entire process of killing the dragon plus teleporting in and out.

A custom staff of maximized cloudkill costs 90,000 gp and casts the spell 50 times. 3,060,000 gp worth of maximized cloudkill staves are enough to cast it 1700 times.

A custom staff of timestop costs 114,750 gp. 3,901,500 gp worth of such staves gives enough castings to stay timestopped if the caster does it himself twice.

Teleporting in and out are easy a level 17 wizard.

I posit that a level 17 wizard can do this with ease if he can acquire 6,961,500 gp worth of magic staffs.

The real challenge then is breaking wealth by level to get all those staffs which presumably do not already exist and must therefore be crafted.

I would suggest setting up an automatically reseting trap that is a high CR (CR 10+) but doesn't do enough damage to autokill the wizard. Since the taking the effects of a trap count as beating it and grant experience points, our wizard can use this trap as an xp fountain. he then needs 3,480,750 gp worth of materials and 278,460 xp.

Energy drain trap from DMG, and a custom restoration trap. Both within WBL for this wizard.

He can now do what ever he wants to get the materials including opening a magic item store and selling custom, magic items until he has earned enough money, since the only thing he loses crafting items is time.

As a note this wizard should probably find a way to become immortal, or else he will die of old age before completing his task.

[Doc_Pippin]

I Know level 0 Commoner Kobold Prays to Io, Io kills the mean old dragon that keeps taking his lunch money. and Random deity intervention takes the win

[Flickerdart]

Cloudkill + time stop
While you're in a time stop, your cloudkill does nothing to the dragon, because the dragon is frozen in time.

[DarkestKnight]

Is the solution allowed to use common sense? Making the dragon ingest some dust of dryness pellets (or similar custom wondrous item to get around the trigger problems) wouldn't do any specified points of damage but how would you feel if hundreds of gallons of water appeared in your stomach?

[Randomguy]

Now, my spell of choice is cloudkill. Why? It overcomes spell resistance. It is an area effect, and can be cast during time stop. It does bad stuff if you cast it enough times.


And hope the dragon doesn't have Iron body, or prismatic wall, or prismatic sphere, or shapechange as one of it's spells known, since all 4 can negate cloudkill (the latter by turning into something without a con score or with poison immunity). A prismatic dragon missing Iron body or shapechange is plausible, but prismatic wall and sphere? Not so much.

As for enervation, there's always greater globe of invulnerability.


I like the dust of dryness solution though. Except use a dozen or so dust of dryness, each filled with 100 gallons water that's been poisoned with a good ingested or contact poison. Possibly black lotus extract.

[Mithril Leaf]

Assuming that psionics count this is feasible at level 9. As a nomadic psion, you gain teleport as a 5th level power. This gets you in. An expanded knowledge lets you cast psionic minor creation. You pump your craft(poisonmaking) check to +34. You can now use a linked psionic minor creation to make black lotus extract. Another feat goes to linked power, which lets you manifest psionic minor creation before the dragon decimates you. Dump the 8524 doses of black lotus extract that you create on it's body. It now makes 8524 checks to avoid taking 3d6 constitution damage. Assuming only 5% actually hurt him, and the ones that do roll minimum, you still deal 1278 constitution damage. He has 65 Constitution. He is now dead.

Congratulations, you just killed a prismatic dragon at level 9.

[DarkestKnight]

wouldn't using some ethereal granting buff and dimension door work better than teleport? i remember that it has a fair bit of a margin of error, while being ethereal you could walk through the dragon and leave the pellets, which should reform as they are no longer your possession and now unaffected by the buff.

Oh and of course you took the poison immunity feat naming Black Lotus extract so you don't die to it yourself, using your teleportation method.

[Starbuck_II]

It isn't immune to negative levels?
No save, 2 negative level, weapons are core.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker

So, how many attacks can one get in Epic? Double that in negative levels helps, remember each negative level deals 5 hp damage, saves, etc.

[Mithril Leaf]

Ah, hadn't even realized that dimension door had a psionic version. If you were able to use that, you could pull it off at level 7. And since it's a normal psion spell, you can free up the expanded knowledge.

I meant to put the feat Poison Immunity, must have forgotten. Good catch. Champions of Ruin right?

[Doorhandle]

Is there any core way to cast in an anti-magic feild? if not, I suggest you use it on the dragon first if you're using a method that doesn't require you to be within 30ft of the beast (I.E, almost all the survivable ones.), as it will help overcome the "Dragon will be played as hyper-competent engine of magical/physical destruction rather than ‘just-as-statblock’" issue.

Also, that pysonic method is brilliant. Any way to get that many does of poison in one place for mundane creatures? Time doesn’t matter.

Also, can’t believe no one has suggested using an explosive-runes bomb. Or throwing the stone left over from a dust of dryness at it and then detonating it.

Could you use persistent spell on delayed fireball? It’s not immune to fire by default, and if so you could get an extra few rounds of spamming the spell before they all asplode. Put them all in a basket, and in the last round before detonating them, drop them at it’s feat and cheese it. Or, use a quickened teleport to get up to it, Time stop, then drop even MORE delayed fireballs at it’s feat using quickening, and then use another to exit before the touchpaper is lit.

Ideally, you’d drop it INSIDE him, but there is a high-probability of “Philadelphia experiment” if you try that.

[Killer Angel]

I'm still a fan of Dust of sneezing, then beating it to death, while making fun of its high saves...

[Chained Birds]

Dust of Sneezing works... Such a broken item.

[lord_khaine]

Ahh, unfortunately Dust of Sneezing doesnt work on its own, the dragon can chose to fail it save, and just take 2d6 points of con damage instead of getting stunned.

(if you read the item description carefully it says you only get stunned if you make the save)

[Chained Birds]

Ahh, unfortunately Dust of Sneezing doesnt work on its own, the dragon can chose to fail it save, and just take 2d6 points of con damage instead of getting stunned.

(if you read the item description carefully it says you only get stunned if you make the save)

Seems awfully meta for a dragon to willingly fail a save. Are you sure it doesn't happen anyway, because it says "...nonetheless disabled by choking..." even if they save?

[The Glyphstone]

Ahh, unfortunately Dust of Sneezing doesnt work on its own, the dragon can chose to fail it save, and just take 2d6 points of con damage instead of getting stunned.

(if you read the item description carefully it says you only get stunned if you make the save)

So bring 10 doses of the stuff.

[Chained Birds]

So bring 10 doses of the stuff.

"Fail the saves, I dare you." :smallamused:

Why stop there? Get 33 doses to be certain the dragon will not willingly fail the saves.

[Calanon]

It isn't immune to negative levels?
No save, 2 negative level, weapons are core.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker

So, how many attacks can one get in Epic? Double that in negative levels helps, remember each negative level deals 5 hp damage, saves, etc.

The purpose behind negative levels is not to just deal 5HP damage and give them penalties, its to give the target creature so many negative levels that they no longer have any HD left and die automatically with no save.

On that note: Make an Epic Spell with the Slay Seed and increase the number of d4 to 40, (+152 DC), on average the dragon is dead... pretty kick ass if I say so myself :smallamused:

Now to figure out a pre-epic way of delivering 80 negative levels in a single round :smallconfused:

[Chained Birds]

The purpose behind negative levels is not to just deal 5HP damage and give them penalties, its to give the target creature so many negative levels that they no longer have any HD left and die automatically with no save.

So you'd have to hit the dragon 39 times.

Using the Dragon's Attack (+101) for comparion for a melee character of a similar ECL vs it's own AC (106), it would appear that the character might be able to hit almost every time (as a level 66 character). Though the Dragon will still likely attack back. Not much of a sure fire strategy.

[lord_khaine]

Seems awfully meta for a dragon to willingly fail a save. Are you sure it doesn't happen anyway, because it says "...nonetheless disabled by choking..." even if they save?

Ill be the first to admit the wording is bad, but from what i can see, a strick reading of the item would say that its only if you save that you are stunned.


So bring 10 doses of the stuff.

from what i can see, that would take 10 standard actions to throw out into the air, and something stupid enough to let that happen wouldnt survive to hit old age :smalltongue:

[Calanon]

So you'd have to hit the dragon 39 times.

Using the Dragon's Attack (+101) for comparion for a melee character of a similar ECL vs it's own AC (106), it would appear that the character might be able to hit almost every time (as a level 66 character). Though the Dragon will still likely attack back. Not much of a sure fire strategy.

...Who the hell said I'm poking him with an unreliable piece of metal (Or as muggles would call "a sword")? I'm using a friken spell man (requiring only 2 rolls Spellcraft check and a Caster level check against his SR... We are assuming the Prismatic Dragon is a great wyrm so 86... and the Wizard in question is 66? Oh that dragon is ****ed)

[The Glyphstone]

Ill be the first to admit the wording is bad, but from what i can see, a strick reading of the item would say that its only if you save that you are stunned.



from what i can see, that would take 10 standard actions to throw out into the air, and something stupid enough to let that happen wouldnt survive to hit old age :smalltongue:

Obviously, you bring friends.

[Andorax]

Level 66 Cleric of Nerull (can be done with less, but this should count as fully legal).


Epic knowledge (religion, planes) to know where Nerull's home is.

Greater Plane Shift to arrive at his front door.

Epic diplomacy to convince his minions to let you through for an audience.

Epic diplomacy AT Nerull to convince him that this Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon really, really needs to die, and that Nerull should slap it with a salient divine ability "just die" upon arrival.

Cast Gate to call the dragon. You're already on another plane. It's "A" prismatic dragon, so it's not immune, doesn't get SR, and shows up instantly. Nerull then, agreeing with your exceptionally well thought out argument, snuffs it.

[Chained Birds]

Level 66 Cleric of Nerull (can be done with less, but this should count as fully legal).


Epic knowledge (religion, planes) to know where Nerull's home is.

Greater Plane Shift to arrive at his front door.

Epic diplomacy to convince his minions to let you through for an audience.

Epic diplomacy AT Nerull to convince him that this Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon really, really needs to die, and that Nerull should slap it with a salient divine ability "just die" upon arrival.

Cast Gate to call the dragon. You're already on another plane. It's "A" prismatic dragon, so it's not immune, doesn't get SR, and shows up instantly. Nerull then, agreeing with your exceptionally well thought out argument, snuffs it.

I thought Nerull was infamous for not giving a **** about any of his clergy?

[gooddragon1]

The word of the day is: Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm).

Custom Use Activated item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#) of Death Knell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathKnell.htm) on several things until you have an effective caster level of 90 (89 things).

Trickery Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#trickeryDomain) and Luck Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#luckDomain).

Scroll of Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)
Scroll of Time Stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm)
Scroll of Blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm)

Use scroll of time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm)
Use scroll of miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) to get you there
Use blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm)

Saving Throw: No.
SR: Not a problem
HD: Less than yours by more than 10.

Result: It's dead at level 1 without candle of invocation shenanigans. Just need the gear and the alignment to do it.

[lord_khaine]

Obviously, you bring friends.

friends dont let friends hunt prismatic dragons :smalltongue:


The word of the day is: Blasphemy.

Custom Use Activated item of Death Knell on several things until you have an effective caster level of 90 (89 things).

Trickery Domain and Luck Domain.

Scroll of Miracle
Scroll of Time Stop
Scroll of Blasphemy

Use scroll of time stop
Use scroll of miracle to get you there
Use blasphemy

Saving Throw: No.
SR: Not a problem
HD: Less than yours by more than 10.

Result: It's dead at level 1 without candle of invocation shenanigans. Just need the gear and the alignment to do it.

Proberly one of the best suggestions so far, but there are 3 minor issues with it that needs to be solved.

Firstly all custom magical items are subject to GM aproval, due to the item creation rules only being a lose guideline.

Secondly im not so sure several castings of Death Knell would stack with each other, due to the casting level bonus being from the same source.

Thirdly i dont think a Miracle would be able to bypass a Dimensional lock, so the above strategy should not be able to get the dragon in its lair.

But besides all of this you just need to win the initiative after comming out of timestop, and then the dragon is down.


Cast Gate to call the dragon. You're already on another plane. It's "A" prismatic dragon, so it's not immune, doesn't get SR, and shows up instantly. Nerull then, agreeing with your exceptionally well thought out argument, snuffs it.

Funny enough this step alone is enough to kill the dragon, since being able to command the dragon should be enough to cause its demise with a bit of creativity.

Of course, it would proberly not work in a dimensional lock either.

[Flickerdart]

Unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack, so 90 Death Knells are useless.

[gooddragon1]

Oh... well then just single action time heal seed (negative energy) with a high enough DC and caster level through some methods. Tack on an AdHoc this penetrates protection from negative energy spells. Cast a quickened damage dealing spell that deals at least 14 damage to it.

[Gandariel]

Seriously, just set up a place with stuff to kill it (Dropping rocks, submersion in acidic lava, or whatever), then Wish it there. (This can be done as soon as you can beat his Will save)

[Rubik]

Seriously, just set up a place with stuff to kill it (Dropping rocks, submersion in acidic lava, or whatever), then Wish it there. (This can be done as soon as you can beat his Will save)You have to beat its SR too. And you have to make sure you have a Dimension Lock (or Dimensional Anchor) available to keep it there.

Oh, and it needs to be somewhere without dirt and stone for walls and floors, and without space to fly (so it can't Shapechange and get away).

[Rubik]

Is there any core way to cast in an anti-magic field?Not unless you use the tinfoil hat trick (which only works if you're not the target of the AMF). And even then it's only because the hat blocks the emanation.


if not, I suggest you use it on the dragon first if you're using a method that doesn't require you to be within 30ft of the beast (I.E, almost all the survivable ones.), as it will help overcome the "Dragon will be played as hyper-competent engine of magical/physical destruction rather than ‘just-as-statblock’" issue.It's a Personal-ranged spell. Those are notoriously difficult (but not impossible) to cast on other things -- and you can't do it in Core.


Also, that pysonic method is brilliant. Any way to get that many does of poison in one place for mundane creatures? Time doesn’t matter.Only through crafting or Handle Animal by milking rattlesnakes and such.


Also, can’t believe no one has suggested using an explosive-runes bomb.It's come up. Unfortunately it's difficult to overcome the dragon's SR without being epic yourself (which IS feasible; it's just not nearly as impressive as doing so with a pre-epic character).


Or throwing the stone left over from a dust of dryness at it and then detonating it.That's come up too.


Could you use persistent spell on delayed fireball? It’s not immune to fire by default, and if so you could get an extra few rounds of spamming the spell before they all asplode. Put them all in a basket, and in the last round before detonating them, drop them at it’s feat and cheese it. Or, use a quickened teleport to get up to it, Time stop, then drop even MORE delayed fireballs at it’s feat using quickening, and then use another to exit before the touchpaper is lit.Persistent Spell isn't Core (which I believe was the challenge). Or possibly SRD only. Maybe.


Ideally, you’d drop it INSIDE him, but there is a high-probability of “Philadelphia experiment” if you try that.Assuming SRD-only you could always coat the beads in quintessence, stuff them in a bag, Teleport yourself into the dragon's stomach (or let it eat you), then Teleport back out. Soon as the dragon's stomach acids and the muscular action damages the quintessence then it gets a stomach full of explosion.

Also you could Escape Artist into its stomach and unleash a few gallons of ingested poisons, or cast Prismatic Sphere. Or cast Gate to the Elemental Plane of Ipecac or something.

[Flickerdart]

It's a Personal-ranged spell. Those are notoriously difficult (but not impossible) to cast on other things -- and you can't do it in Core.
Arcane Archer's Imbue Spell.

[Rubik]

Arcane Archer's Imbue Spell.You know, other than that one ability, arcane archers are so useless that I totally forgot about their one useful one.

[CheeseMerchant]

So I've been thinking this one over for a bit and I have some ideas that might entertain. They are, like the CoI based infinite wishes, based on an unintended consequence of the RAW. As such the presume a DM that will run things by the "letter of the law". That said, I've placed some restrictions on this scenario to better define the scope of the thought experiment.

What is "core" for this purpose?

Rather than use the whole of the SRD, I will only be using the following books:

PHB I
MM I
DMG I

The ELH is being used for the Prismatic Dragon ONLY.

How intelligently with the Prismatic Dragon be used?

The problem is that the Prismatic Dragon has an Intelligence score of 64 and a Wisdom of 65. This means that not only will it have behave in an incredibly intelligent manner, but that it will act with caution and forethought. It this were to be properly represented, then the "challenge" is not able to be won as the Dragon could use any conceivable tactic that a player could use, or field a proper counter to such.

The solution then is to present the monster in the only position that makes killing it feasible. The PCs will have learned of the Dragon's location and managed to create a situation where they are able to attack the Dragon from ambush. Now, this seems like it puts the Dragon as a severe disadvantage, and it does. The justification is that the "challenger" will be so insignificant that the Dragon seems destined to win.

What build/trick is being used to kill the Dragon?

Human Cleric 3 (with WBL of a 6th level character)

How is a level 3 character able to win against a CR 66 monster?

Rebuke Undead

Details:

This hapless Cleric of an Evil, Undead loving, God encounters (by sheer coincidence) a Shadow. Shadows have some funny things going for them.

First, they are 3HD with Turn Resistance +2.
Second, they have the Create Spawn ability.
Third, they do Strength Damage.
Fourth, they are Incorporeal.

The Cleric (we'll call him Bob) Rebukes the Shadow. Bob has the Heighten Turning feat, the Phylactery of Undead Turning, and a good role on the d20. The end result is that Bob is able to Command the Shadow. Nifty huh?

The Shadow, mighty as it is, cannot kill the Prismatic Dragon alone. He is going to need friends and that is why he has the Create Spawn ability.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

So Bob's Shadow goes with Bob to find some level 1 commoners. There are plenty of those around and Bob's Shadow soon has a lot of friends (who are also Shadows). The funny thing about these new Shadows is that Bob's Shadow is able to control all of them. Forever.

Bob's Shadow (and the Shadow's new friends) go forth into the world to make more friends. This continues until Bob has an arbitrarily large number of Shadows who follow him, or one of the Shadows under his control. It's like an Incorporeal Undead Pyramid scheme.

Bob sends his arbitrarily large number of Shadows to kill the Dragon.

Bob will need a minimum of ~400 or so (since he needs 20 successful attacks and the Shadow's only hit on a natural 20) for his ambush, otherwise the Dragon just leaves.

--

This isn't intended to be something that anyone tries at their home game. Nor should a DM permit this kind of abuse in an actual game. But, by that same token, DM's don't usually send 3rd level characters up against CR 66 encounters. :smallsmile:

Obviously there are any of a dozen counters to this that the Dragon could employ, but with a low initiative it is possible that the Dragon won't get a chance. Moreover, this scenario relies on the character (and his Shadows) taking the Dragon unaware. This is more likely than you might think given that the Shadows can move through solid objects and make no noise. The Prismatic Dragon (oddly enough) doesn't have Blindsight in its stat block.

And, at the end of the day, when taken to extremes the Cleric just makes every humanoid in existence a Shadow and kills the Dragon with attrition. :smallamused:

Hope you enjoyed this.

Thank you.

[Gandariel]

You have to beat its SR too. And you have to make sure you have a Dimension Lock (or Dimensional Anchor) available to keep it there.

Oh, and it needs to be somewhere without dirt and stone for walls and floors, and without space to fly (so it can't Shapechange and get away).

Okay, then, it is doable as soon as you can beat his SR AND a Will save.

For everything else.. seriously, YOU are creating this place AND you have unlimited prep time.
Create it with Force walls and floors (or whatever), have a trap of Dimensional Anchor, a ton of rocks falling and acidic lava.


EDIT: Also, Shadowcalypse is cheating. You can beat everything that way (also rule the world) :P

[Thomasinx]

Okay, then, it is doable as soon as you can beat his SR AND a Will save.

If you can beat his SR and Will save, just cast Dominate Monster. Why bother with anything more complicated? Don't automatically assume you can beat the SR and Will save without describing how. (Since this is actually a bit of a trick for a non-epic character).

Honestly, incorporeal undead is a pretty safe and easy way to kill the dragon. If you dont want to rebuke shadows, just do the following:

Create Greater Undead (Make a Devourer).
Wait until the dragon is asleep.
Have the Devourer go use it's Trap Essence ability until the Dragon fails.

Incorporeal undead is 100% quiet, and can just sit in the floor poking upwards until it succeeds. The dragon won't realize its there until it fails once, at which point the dragon is screwed.

[Cruiser1]

Also you could Escape Artist into its stomach and unleash a few gallons of ingested poisons, or cast Prismatic Sphere.
It's a Prismatic Dragon. They're immune to prismatic effects like Prismatic Sphere (along with all light and blindness effects). :smallsmile:

[lord_khaine]

If you can beat his SR and Will save, just cast Dominate Monster. Why bother with anything more complicated? Don't automatically assume you can beat the SR and Will save without describing how. (Since this is actually a bit of a trick for a non-epic character).

Honestly, incorporeal undead is a pretty safe and easy way to kill the dragon. If you dont want to rebuke shadows, just do the following:

Create Greater Undead (Make a Devourer).
Wait until the dragon is asleep.
Have the Devourer go use it's Trap Essence ability until the Dragon fails.

Incorporeal undead is 100% quiet, and can just sit in the floor poking upwards until it succeeds. The dragon won't realize its there until it fails once, at which point the dragon is screwed.

Im sorry but this is doomed to fail, something with epic spellcasting just isnt going to let you walk up to it while sleeping and coup de grace i, this plan is to start with foiled by lowlevel spells like alarm or rope trick.

[Rubik]

It's a Prismatic Dragon. They're immune to prismatic effects like Prismatic Sphere (along with all light and blindness effects). :smallsmile:Oh. Right. That. :smallbiggrin:

Then cast some other spell to give it major indigestion. If you're immune to bludgeoning and acid, you should be able to keep casting stuff until it eventually fails its save.

[Doorhandle]

You know, other than that one ability, arcane archers are so useless that I totally forgot about their one useful one.

I totally agree.

I was trying to make a Magus A.A untill I realised you can't spell-combat without holding a melee-wepon, or use throwing wepons for Imbume spell.

Wasted opportunities, WoTC!

[Mithril Leaf]

Update to the psionic method, noticed that Linked Power isn't in the SRD. Thus, I have changed some methods. Prior to using the dimension, you manifest as much black lotus extract as you can carry placed inside of an amber sphere (which you also create with PMC). Then you dimension door above the dragon and drop the bomb of poison. This requires level 7 and psionics but no infinite loops.

Of course, the shadowpocalypse method works better, hats off to Cheesemerchant.