SR=Yes

[Acanous]

I'd like to pose a challenge to the build optimizers out there.
Is there any way to get Spell Resistance of 100 or more, without just grabbing Spell Immunity?
It can be on any creature under CR or Level 20. It can be a familiar, an Animal Companion, a Monster or a Character. In the case of it being a familiar or Animal companion, use the master's level for your cap.

Really, this is just thought optimization. After reading the Cypher Mage from Paizo, and thinking of the numerous ways one could bypass SR 54 or lower by level 15, I got to wondering if there were any way SR could get high enough to matter again, without resorting to outright immunity.

[killianh]

SR is like fire resistance and the like. Once you reach a certain point resistance just doesn't cover it any more. That's why most creatures have element resistances of 5, 10, 20, and immune. I'm sure its possible to build something with a really high SR, but to build it would take to much away from any character's build options to make it matter. As for a creature a DM can just decide something has a stupid high SR since a DM can homebrew whatever the DM feels is needed

[Jeraa]

It is possible to make custom magic items that grant spell resistance. Cost is 10,000gp per point of SR over 12, with a minimum SR of 13.

A custom made item that grants SR 100 would cost 880,000 gp in Pathfinder, or 8,800,000 gp in 3.0/3.5 (as it qualifies as an epic item, and epic items have an automatic x10 multiplier for their cost*. Pathfinder doesn't have a similar rule.)

Also, with epic spellcasting, the Fortify seed can grant spell resistance.

*Though the Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mantleofEpicSpellResistance) qualifies as an epic item, but doesn't include the x10 multiplier.

[Acanous]

Taking away from other options is fine, as this build isn't intended to be played. I more want to see if it can be done. Apparently it can with a massive gold pricetag, and a few years spent crafting.

Let's assume you have one full year for crafting. Can it be done?

[Jeraa]

Taking away from other options is fine, as this build isn't intended to be played. I more want to see if it can be done. Apparently it can with a massive gold pricetag, and a few years spent crafting.

Let's assume you have one full year for crafting. Can it be done?

Plane shift to a plane where time flows differently, or make one yourself. I don't know of any plane that has it, but the DMG says planes can exist where an entire day passes on that plane, but only a single round passes on the material plane. (There are 5,256,000 rounds in a year. So if one day passe son the alternate plane for every round on the material plane, that is 5,256,000 days, or over 14,000 years. With a single year spent on the alternate plane, only 36 minutes pass on the material plane.)

Edit: Manual of the Planes details the Plane of Faerie, when one day passes on the material plane for every week spent in the plane of Faerie. However, when you leave the plane of faerie, time catches up to you, and you could pltentially die of old age. Just don't stay long, or be a race that lives centuries (or better yet - immortal.) 1 year passes on the material plane while 7 years pass on the plane of Faerie.

Manual of the Planes also details the Far Realm. No matter how much time you spend in the Far Realm, no time passes on the Material Plane. The Far Realm laughs at time, as it exists completely outside of it.

[candycorn]

Let's see.

Let's start with Lesser Aasimar, and Warlock, level 19.

22 ranks of UMD (level 19)
20 base charisma (18 stat + 2 racial)
+6 enhance to charisma
+5 inherent to charisma
+3 Age to charisma
+4 from levels to charisma
38 Charisma, or +14 modifier.

So far, UMD bonus is +36.
There are various items that boost charisma checks. One in the SRD gives +3, for +39.
MW Skill tool puts it to +41
Skill focus and magical aptitude give another 5, for +46.
Item Familiar brings it to +68.

From here, we can begin using magic.

Scroll of Crown of Glory (Glory domain, level 8 spell) - UMD autosuccess. +4 morale to skills. Now we're up to +72.

Scroll of Divine Insight, CL 10. +15 insight, on one check. Now we're up to +87, on a single check.

Staff, containing Inspiration (Bard 2). UMD, without Divine Insight. +72. Assume a roll of 10 (warlock class ability) to emulate class feature, for a result of 82. That means your effective CL is 62. You get 124 points of luck pool, and you can put up to +62 in one skill.

Staff, Containing the Spell Resistance Spell. Emulate Class feature (spellcasting), via UMD, to activate the staff. Use Divine Insight (+15 insight), and Inspiration (+62), to boost your UMD check to +149. Assuming a roll of 10, you have a 159, which emulates CL 139. That gives you Spell Resistance of CL + 12, for a total of SR 151, for just over 2 hours.

[Jeraa]

One important thing about wish - while it has a gp limit on mundane items it can create safely, there is no listed limit on the value of a magic item it can create. Normally, this is balanced by the fact the spell increase the XP component cost, but spell like abilities have no components at all. So, if you get wish as a spell like ability (like by summoning/gating in an Efreeti), there is no limit to the power of the magic item you can wish for safely.

So summon up an Efreeti, and wish for an item that grants SR 100. Normally, that would cost a lot of experience, but as its from a spell like ability, there is no XP cost. And as it still falls within the "Safe List" of the wishes abilities (as there is no gp limit on magic items created), there should be no wish twisting involved.

At least by RAW, this works. Any sane DM would smack you upside the head if you tried something like this.

[tyckspoon]

*Though the Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#mantleofEpicSpellResistance) qualifies as an epic item, but doesn't include the x10 multiplier.

The Epic price multiplier actually only applies to items that offer bonuses beyond the limits of non-Epic items- the +5 enhancement to weapon/armor, +6 stat booster, +5 AC item stuff. There is no such limit for Spell Resistance. The market price being over 200k means it's still an Epic item, so you still the appropriate Craft Epic Magic Widget feat to make one, but a Spell Resistance item is relatively cheap once you have Epic wealth to work with. (SR 100 would cost 'only' 880,000 gold. Which is still more than the entire allotment of a level 20 character, but would be feasible for an early-Epic crafter or purchased outright around.. I think level 30.)

[candycorn]

One important thing about wish - while it has a gp limit on mundane items it can create safely, there is no listed limit on the value of a magic item it can create. Normally, this is balanced by the fact the spell increase the XP component cost, but spell like abilities have no components at all. So, if you get wish as a spell like ability (like by summoning/gating in an Efreeti), there is no limit to the power of the magic item you can wish for safely.

So summon up an Efreeti, and wish for an item that grants SR 100. Normally, that would cost a lot of experience, but as its from a spell like ability, there is no XP cost. And as it still falls within the "Safe List" of the wishes abilities (as there is no gp limit on magic items created), there should be no wish twisting involved.

At least by RAW, this works. Any sane DM would smack you upside the head if you tried something like this.

Caveat: Summoned creatures will not use spells that cost XP or SLA's that duplicate spells that cost XP.

This means that summoned efreets will not use their Wish SLA. It must be called.

[Jeraa]

Caveat: Summoned creatures will not use spells that cost XP or SLA's that duplicate spells that cost XP.

This means that summoned efreets will not use their Wish SLA. It must be called.

Which is what the gate spell (or the cheap Candle of Invocation) is for.

Spending 8,400 gp to gate in an Efreeti, and getting 3 magic items of unlimited value is easily doable at even mid levels. A 5th level character who spends most of his starting gold can do it. At 7th level, its only half his starting gold, and only a quarter of it at 9th level.

[candycorn]

Which is what the gate spell (or the cheap Candle of Invocation) is for.

Spending 8,400 gp to gate in an Efreeti, and getting 3 magic items of unlimited value is easily doable at even mid levels. A 5th level character who spends most of his starting gold can do it. At 7th level, its only half his starting gold, and only a quarter of it at 9th level.

I know; I was just posting that for accuracy, since you referred to "summoning" an efreet.

[Acanous]

The Warlock trick is pretty dang good. Gating an Efreeti in could work, but could also fail in a number of ways. I think adding a level of Marshal could actually increase that SR. A Wish could make it permanent, but that's going back into "Might" territory.

[candycorn]

The Warlock trick is pretty dang good. Gating an Efreeti in could work, but could also fail in a number of ways. I think adding a level of Marshal could actually increase that SR. A Wish could make it permanent, but that's going back into "Might" territory.

Items could boost it too. I didn't scour for all the boosts, just the ones I liked the most. Inspiration is the single biggest buff. Moment of Prescience could add another +10 to the caster level check, for example. Using a second scroll of Divine Insight would add another +15. That alone would push SR to 176.

It's also possible to work with a higher Cha race. If you were gestalting, for example, you could go with a Evolved Undead lesser Aasimar ghost on one side of the gestalt (+4 Cha for the ghost, +28 Cha for the evolved templates, for an additional +16). If you have a skilled bard with you, that could increase the check further.

All in all, I could see SR 200 using this trick.

EDIT: Trick 2. BoVD, Power Leech. Use Cleric 19, and DMM persist the spell on a creature for 6 stats (start with wisdom and charisma one day, and use all 6 stats the next day). To keep the creature alive, put it in an Energy Transformation Field (Spell Compendium) linked to a greater restoration, with a called creature fueling it with SLA/Supernatural abilities to keep it going.

This will create a +1 enhancement bonus to your stats per round, lasting 10 minutes, and stacking with itself. You'll get the bonus every round for 24 hours. That's +100 to all stats, which gives you +50 turn attempts, a whole mess of spells per day, and +50 to every skill. From there, Consumptive Field stacking would get CL as high as you like (each casting increasing your CL by 50%), and then you could DMM Persist a Spell Resistance spell. This one would easily get SR to 400-500.

[Kazyan]

Advance a Tyrannosaurus Rex to 20 HD and slap on the Pseudonatural Template. It's CR 20 (I think) and has SR 100.

[Cor1]

Psionic Power Resistance. It gives PR 12 + Manifester level.

Boost your ML to 88, then manifest it. Voilà, PR 100.

I didn't find any method to get over ML 50 without building the character specifically for it. I can get my Psion's ML to 49 this far, at lvl 19.

My method is to Overchannel Metamorphosis to get Practiced Manifester and Improved Overchannel from the extra HD. Then it becomes (19 Class ML + 1 Ioun Stone Orange + 4 Practiced Manifester) * 2 Improved Overchannel + 1 effective by Torc of Power Preservation.

Funny trick : the bonus power points from Ability scores depend on manifester level. That means that while you're manifesting a power that you Overchannel, you have bonus power points to pay for it. But you're supposed to track those...

I can't explain it clearly enough with Psionics alone, so I'll use the other example. A Cleric gains 3+Cha mod Turn Undead attempts per day. If that Cleric casts Eagle's Splendor, he gains 2 Turn Undead attempts. If he uses them, he loses them for the day, but they don't count against the normal limit. So if that cleric later re-casts Eagle's Splendor, those bonus Turn attempts have been used already, so he doesn't gain new ones.

The formula to calculate those bonus power points is Ability mod * (Manifester Level /2). In my Psion's case, once augmented as above, that's Int 10 * 18/2 = 90, and while using Improved Overchannel, it's 11 * 48/2 = 262. That's 172 bonus points to manifest powers stupidly augmented... or to manifest the power at crazy ML without augmenting it. Power Resistance can't be augmented, so it's all ML-dependent.
But it's a power above lvl3, so you can't negate the damage from Overchannel by using Talented. So you'd need to be an Elan, and tank the damage with your Resilience, spending the bonus power points from Overchannel.

Edit : just to complete this, I'll do the math. My Elan Psion has Improved Resilience, so it prevents 4 points of damage by power point spent. An augmentation of 1 ML by Imp Overchannel inflicts 2d8 dmg, so 23*2 = 46d8 damage. Negating 8 dmg takes 2 power points, so that's 92pp to tank everything, at most. It's within the bonus power points from Overchannel itself.

[Urpriest]

Psionic Power Resistance. It gives PR 12 + Manifester level.

Boost your ML to 88, then manifest it. Voilà, PR 100.

I didn't find any method to get over ML 50 without building the character specifically for it. I can get my Psion's ML to 49 this far, at lvl 19.

My method is to Overchannel Metamorphosis to get Practiced Manifester and Improved Overchannel from the extra HD. Then it becomes (19 Class ML + 1 Ioun Stone Orange + 4 Practiced Manifester) * 2 Improved Overchannel + 1 effective by Torc of Power Preservation.


I've seen this bandied about occasionally, and I can't fathom where it comes from. What about Metamorphosis makes you think you count as having the hit dice of the assumed form?

[Cor1]

I've seen this bandied about occasionally, and I can't fathom where it comes from. What about Metamorphosis makes you think you count as having the hit dice of the assumed form?




The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than your manifester level (to a maximum of 25 HD).

So yeah, if you can Overchannel that to ML 25, you certainly can become a Mature Adult Red Dragon. And you gain (explicitly) racial bonus feats, and everyone in CharOp assumes you also gain feats every three HD as per norma rules. If it's limited to monstrous feats, there's Psychic Reformation. (What "10 minutes manifesting time"? Linked Power explicitly states "takes effect the round after the first power is manifested", that's what loopholes are for.)

[Urpriest]

So yeah, if you can Overchannel that to ML 25, you certainly can become a Mature Adult Red Dragon. And you gain (explicitly) racial bonus feats, and everyone in CharOp assumes you also gain feats every three HD as per norma rules. If it's limited to monstrous feats, there's Psychic Reformation. (What "10 minutes manifesting time"? Linked Power explicitly states "takes effect the round after the first power is manifested", that's what loopholes are for.)

Bolded is the part that I don't see any precedent for. What gives you the HD feats? After all, nothing in the powers changes your HD.

[Cor1]

What? You gain the HDs, you may even roll the racial HDs to count the temp HPs they give you, add your Con mod times that number of HDs. Shapechange and Greater Metamorphosis give you the type and subtype and most abilities of the creatures you morph into.

Here follows the text of Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis, spoilered for length.

The form gains the feats, and you can target the form with PsyRef to get useful ones if your metamorphosis lasts longer than that one's casting time.




Metamorphosis
Psychometabolism
Level: Egoist 4
Display: Material and olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D) for a creature; 1 hour/level (D) for an object
Power Points: 7

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead. The assumed form can have as many Hit Dice as your manifester level, to a maximum of 15.

You can’t assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you assume an incorporeal, ectoplasmic, or gaseous form. You cannot take the form of any creature that has a template. Your type and subtype (if applicable) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal you further). If you are slain while under the effect of this power, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead. You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural, psionic, or spell-like abilities.

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and special qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have, if any. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form. If you have a template, special abilities it provides are likewise not retained. If the assumed form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any manifesting ability you had in your original form.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws or a bite), racial bonuses on skill checks, racial bonus feats, and any anatomical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that type. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s species. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this power to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item in question) or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your normal form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms (mouth, hands, or the like) at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its normal form.

You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object. You gain the object’s hardness and retain your own hit points. You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of. If you attempt to take the form of a complex object, you must make an appropriate skill check.. If you fail the check, your manifestation of the power does not succeed. Likewise, you cannot take the form of a complex mechanical mechanism unless you have some sort of skill associated with the object. You cannot use this power to assume the form of a psionic item or a magic item, or any object with a hardness of 15 or higher. You also cannot take the form of a psionically animated mechanism or any object formed of ectoplasm.

As an inanimate object, you lose all mobility. You retain your normal senses and your ability to speak. You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power. If you take damage while in the form of an object, your actual body also takes damage (but the object’s hardness, if any, protects you).


Metamorphosis, Greater
Psychometabolism
Level: Egoist 9
Display: Material and visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D) for a creature; 1 hour/level (D) for an object
Power Points: 17, XP

As metamorphosis, except that this power enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique object or creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than your manifester level (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike metamorphosis, this power allows incorporeal, ectoplasmic, or gaseous forms to be assumed.

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both special attacks and special qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form (for example, dragon or magical beast) in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original form.

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a swift action.

The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.

If you use this power to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

As an inanimate object, you lose all mobility; however, you retain your ability to manifest powers normally.

XP Cost: 200 XP.

[Urpriest]

What? You gain the HDs, you may even roll the racial HDs to count the temp HPs they give you, add your Con mod times that number of HDs. Shapechange and Greater Metamorphosis give you the type and subtype and most abilities of the creatures you morph into.

Here follows the text of Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis, spoilered for length.


I just read that text, again, and nothing in it appears to support your claim. I ask again: what is the evidence that those powers grant you the racial HD of the assumed form?

[Cor1]

That's silly, you explicitly gain the racial bonus feats, some of those come from HDs, right? So if you take a form with a lot of HDs you gain the, say, Aberrant feats if you're morphing into an Illithid, right? And you can take more of them if you're taking more HDs, so if you adopt a form with more HDs, you add those racial, monster, HDs to your sheet as a buff. Transform into a Dracolich, gain Undead type, and add whatever bonus HDs as Undead d12s with 4+Int skil points, bad BAB, and not-mindless undead do gain feats. It's explicit that mindless undead do not, in the type description.

[Urpriest]

That's silly, you explicitly gain the racial bonus feats, some of those come from HDs, right? So if you take a form with a lot of HDs you gain the, say, Aberrant feats if you're morphing into an Illithid, right? And you can take more of them if you're taking more HDs, so if you adopt a form with more HDs, you add those racial, monster, HDs to your sheet as a buff. Transform into a Dracolich, gain Undead type, and add whatever bonus HDs as Undead d12s with 4+Int skil points, bad BAB, and not-mindless undead do gain feats. It's explicit that mindless undead do not, in the type description.

Racial bonus feats don't come from HD. Name me a single race that gets racial bonus feats as its HD increase.

[Aracor]

some of those come from HDs, right?Nope. Racial bonus feats are over and above those gained by hit dice. Feats that are gained by level are not BONUS feats. They're simply feats that everyone gets.

To raise an example for ease of use, see http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm
No matter how many hit dice the air elemental gets, it only has two racial bonus feats: Weapon Finesse, and Improved Initiative. The rest are feats that it gets based on its hit dice, but you don't get those because they don't have a superscript 'b' with them.

[Cor1]

Okay, that's out then. But the other argument still stands, if only because you

But there's still the argument that the form you morph into still has more HDs, and that that form gains the relevant benefits, including feats by HD, by way of changing your type. Type : Undead says "Skills : (...snip) However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats." Thus follows that a non-mindless form of the Undead type gains feats by HDs.

This is abuse, yes, but it can work by RAW. The interpretation of "you can morph into a form of your CL/ML HDs, max 25" may or may not allow for gaining feats. The usual CharOp interpretation is it does. There are arguments for that in RAW, but it's not very explicit and probably not allowed outside CharOp discussion, or Tippyesque 'verses.

[Person_Man]

If you want an actual realistic option, the Spellward Shirt soulmeld grants you Spell Resistance 5 + (4*essentia invested), starting at level 1. Essentia capacity maxes out at 8 pre-epic (and requires a Feat and a Magic Item to get you that far). Daazzix's Vest (DMG II pg 267) increases existing Spell Resistance by 5. And the Slave to Evil Feat (Elder Evils pg 14) can improve Spell Resistance against Divine spells by 5 more.

So that's realistic 40-100%ish (depending on your level, and the level of the caster you're facing) all day Spell Resistance for a moderate investment.

[Lapak]

If you want an actual realistic option, the Spellward Shirt soulmeld grants you Spell Resistance 5 + (4*essentia invested), starting at level 1. Essentia capacity maxes out at 8 pre-epic (and requires a Feat and a Magic Item to get you that far). Daazzix's Vest (DMG II pg 267) increases existing Spell Resistance by 5. And the Slave to Evil Feat (Elder Evils pg 14) can improve Spell Resistance against Divine spells by 5 more.

So that's realistic 40-100%ish (depending on your level, and the level of the caster you're facing) all day Spell Resistance for a moderate investment.To get the essentia cap on Spellward Shirt up to 8, wouldn't you need to have a bunch of levels in Incarnate? That's not really a moderate investment.

You could get it to 6 with just a single level dip or another feat, though.

[Angry Bob]

A Pseudonatural gargantuan monstrous scorpion fits the bill at CR 20 with no items. a Pseudonatural gargantuan monstrous spider(advanced to 20 HD) does so at CR 19.

The reason being that Pseudonatural creatures have SR=5x their HD, and a lot of vermin/animals have high HD without having a very high CR. You could do the same with most advanced animals/vermin. You'd just have to keep the CR of the base creature 10 or under for this challenge, because pseudonatural CR adjustment is +10 for HD 16 or more.

[Cor1]

If we're going for monster abilities, we'll end up with an Ikea Tarrasque, not a build one might conceivably write up on a character sheet...

[peacenlove]

Improved spell resistance is a 6th level wizard spell that increases your existing SR by your caster level. From a dragon magazine with racial spells, don't remember which.

[Korivan]

The only problem with SR that I have is that there are a few ways to bypass it completely. Despite how high

[Chess435]

Can't you use Transcend Mortality instead of Spell Resistance (the spell), for an extra 9 points? Granted, you'll die at the end of the duration, but still..... :smallwink: