PF Synthesist Summoner: Why not?

[ClockworkSun]

Here's the archetype:

Synthesist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist)

So as to my question: why would anyone ever NOT be a synthesist if they're going to be a summoner? With the combined stats, the mountain of hit points, the free defense bonuses, the dimension door (which seems really good considering what it replaces). Sure you can't use your summon spells while you're fused but you can't do that and have your eidolon out too, anyway. I mean, the level 1 ability to be fused with your eidolon doesn't come to the normal summoner until 16! Basically what I'm asking is whether this archetype seems broken compared to the standard one--I can't think of a reason NOT to be (as one of my friends played in a one-shot) a giant flying snake with beefy pincer arms who ALSO has spellcasting.

[eggs]

It's generally less powerful than default summoners, due to the action economy. (The Synthesist attacks or casts in the time that a non-Synthesist casts and has its eilodon attack.)

[Jerthanis]

Generic Summoner is better because your action economy is better, you can flank more and you can take better feats since you don't have to spend them to make your own fighting better. As a d8, light armor class you're not completely vulnerable on your own, so the only problem that taking all these penalties solves (you getting targetted over a tougher summon) isn't a serious problem. Meanwhile, it creates a problem of halving your effective feats, skills, and actions in combat.

It's not broken.

[ClockworkSun]

Sure, you don't get as many actions, but every other class without an animal companion/mount/whatever also only gets one character's action, but without the advantage of taking the best of two creatures' mental and physical ability scores and two creatures' worth of hit points. Sure you can't flank, or do any mounted combat, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the reduced amount of actions hurts the synthesist to the extent that I wouldn't always pick it over the normal kind (at least for combat).

[eggs]

Sure, you don't get as many actions, but every other class without an animal companion/mount/whatever also only gets one character's action,
...And that's a huge advantage. Other classes with similar abilities don't change that.

It might help to flip the comparison, and make it between the Eidolon (with a Summoner sidekick) and the Synthesist.

While in melee, the two advantages the Synthesist has over the Eidolon are its 2 extra feats and its extra HP. Otherwise, the attack bonuses, special abilities, etc. are the same.

Consider the advantage that the Eidolon's summoner sidekick grants in exchange for the 2 feats the Eidolon version effectively sacrifices: the Summoner sidekick essentially quickens every spell that the Eidolon casts, and effectively grants 10 free feats to use to improve casting abilities. If there were 2 feats which could be used for that sort of advantage, every character would take them without so much as a thought.

[Midnight_v]

Sure, you don't get as many actions, but every other class without an animal companion/mount/whatever also only gets one character's action


but I'm having a hard time seeing how the reduced amount of actions hurts the synthesist to the extent that I wouldn't always pick it over the normal kind (at least for combat).
The first part is pretty irrelavant if your saying "Synthiest vs non-synthiest summoner" what the other people are doing has no bearing... "really".

Summoing monsters is better than doing it yourself. wait... I see eggs has Swordsaged me.

What he said.
Honestly its a LOSS of power and a gain of "cool" ala - "GUYVERRR!!!"
etc.

[jaybird]

For extra fun, try convincing your GM to allow you to take Obtain Familiar and Leadership on your Summoner :smallwink:

[Midnight_v]

For extra fun, try convincing your GM to allow you to take Obtain Familiar and Leadership on your Summoner :smallwink:

LOL... I'm not sure that your definition of "fun" is the same as mine. . . or rather...
..Fun for Whom?

[deuxhero]

For extra fun, try convincing your GM to allow you to take Obtain Familiar and Leadership on your Summoner :smallwink:

Don't even need the 3.5 material for Obtain Familiar, Eldritch Heritage Arcane gives it, and Half-Elf (which you should be anyways if you are a summoner) gets the skill requirement for free. Both Improved EH:Arcane feats are worth taking anyways for no time increase on metamagic (less useful if you use the RAW that Summoners are never stated to have increased casting time for metamagic spells), and 3 spells off the sorc/wizard list (You have to try not to abuse that).

[NightbringerGGZ]

The Synthesist lets your character become an offensive powerhouse with really good defenses. You lose out on a ton of class skills and skill points and also have half the number of actions per round. Basically, you have many more options if you go the regular Summoner route.

[Jerthanis]

Sure, you don't get as many actions, but every other class without an animal companion/mount/whatever also only gets one character's action, but without the advantage of taking the best of two creatures' mental and physical ability scores and two creatures' worth of hit points. Sure you can't flank, or do any mounted combat, but I'm having a hard time seeing how the reduced amount of actions hurts the synthesist to the extent that I wouldn't always pick it over the normal kind (at least for combat).

I'm playing a traditional Summoner right now and a standard part of my routine at one point was to cast Lesser Evolution Surge to grant my summon Pounce, then had it charge and full attack, all in one turn. As a synthesist I would cast Lesser Evolution Surge and my turn would be over. Next turn I could Pounce, but not until then.

As a traditional summoner, I can stand behind my Eidolon while it's in melee to spoil attempts to engage me in melee and help avoid AoOs from casting in melee, where as a Synethesist I have to risk casting defensively if I'm doing my melee thing.

One of my main concerns when fighting enemy spellcasters is the fact that my Eidolon is a summon, and can be banished or locked down pretty easily, but I can ready a counterspell with the Banishment spell available to be sure they don't manage it, and I can do that while my Eidolon melees really well.

It's like... if you could have the option with the Leadership feat to instead gain some of the benefits of your Henchman, to add a Fighter's Base Attack and HP to your Bard, it'd be weaker than having a full fledged Fighter of -2 HD under your control. Summoner is like a Bard with the Leadership feat and Synthesist is a Bard with Fighter BAB and HP.

[meemaas]

Synthesist isn't a good summoner build. It exists as a dip. Want to be really MAD? Dump your physical scores, dip a level of Synthesist. Its like fighter for 3.5. The class only really exists for a one to two level dip. That said, the benefits are pretty outstanding, even if you only use the physical one.

[Blisstake]

Synthesist isn't a good summoner build. It exists as a dip. Want to be really MAD? Dump your physical scores, dip a level of Synthesist. Its like fighter for 3.5. The class only really exists for a one to two level dip. That said, the benefits are pretty outstanding, even if you only use the physical one.

Eh, but even if you replace your stats, you end up with rather crappy ones. They can't be affected by level up or inherent bonuses, and start to become a hinderance. Plus it adds banishment to the list of things that screw you over.

[Slipperychicken]

I like non-synthesist Summoner because it lets me get my "melee-fix" of rolling dice to smack things around, and not risk dying in melee. The Eidolon is disposable. My character is not. This is a huge advantage over any fighting class: if your Eidolon dies in melee, no big deal, it'll come back tomorrow. If the Synthesist dies in melee, you have to decide what to do with his stuff, and his player might get all whiny for the rest of the session.


Sure, you could rush into the fray and risk your life wearing your Eidolon... or you could have your disposable Eidolon rush into the fray wearing your awesome buffs/support spells, while you remain safe and sound, out of harm's way.

[Larpus]

Synthesist isn't a good summoner build. It exists as a dip. Want to be really MAD? Dump your physical scores, dip a level of Synthesist. Its like fighter for 3.5. The class only really exists for a one to two level dip. That said, the benefits are pretty outstanding, even if you only use the physical one.
That's way too far on the other direction.

Synthesist is a good Summoner, might not be as good as a vanilla one due to action economy, but is still viable enough to not be an automatic dismiss.

In fact, due to the extra HP, not having to share equip slots and the fact that with Shielded Meld all your saves are pretty much your "good save", if all you're looking for on a Summoner is a "tanker caster", then Synthesist is good enough in my book to be on even-pair with the vanilla.

[Daftendirekt]

Synthesist seems to exist for coolness factor. Sure, it's cool for that gnome to summon something that looks like a Chinese dragon. How much cooler is it to TURN INTO a Chinese dragon?

[NamelessNPC]

Synthesist isn't a good summoner build. It exists as a dip. Want to be really MAD? Dump your physical scores, dip a level of Synthesist. Its like fighter for 3.5. The class only really exists for a one to two level dip. That said, the benefits are pretty outstanding, even if you only use the physical one.

So, you take 1 synthetist lvl. You feel so cool. You are so MAD, bro! Then, someone hits you, and your, what, 11 temp hit points go away, and they take your physical attributes with it, and you are just a dude who doesn't have martial weapons, doesn't have medium armor or shield, doesn't have good BAB, and doesn't have a sidekick and is standing in front of the bad guys.

[Dr_S]

I'm had a ton of fun with my synthesist/rogue/arcane trickster...

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, you take 1 synthetist lvl. You feel so cool. You are so MAD, bro! Then, someone hits you, and your, what, 11 temp hit points go away, and they take your physical attributes with it, and you are just a dude who doesn't have martial weapons, doesn't have medium armor or shield, doesn't have good BAB, and doesn't have a sidekick and is standing in front of the bad guys.

You can use your own hp to keep all of the temp hp (ie, your eidolon suit) from dissapearing. So if you get ripped into so badly that you can't afford to do this, yeah, you're in trouble. But without the bio-suit's temp hp, you would've been dead or dying by that point anyway, so not much of a negative...


"Fused Link (Su)
Starting at 1st level, the synthesist forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being killed and sent back to its home plane.

This ability replaces life link."

[NamelessNPC]

Well, I didn't know that. However, that is a free action, so you can only do it if you would get hit in your turn.

[GreenZ]

So, you take 1 Summoner lvl. You feel so cool. You are so MAD, bro! Then, someone hits your Eidolon, and it's, what, 11 hit points go away, and they take it away, and you are just a dude who doesn't have martial weapons, doesn't have medium armor or shield, doesn't have good BAB, and doesn't have a sidekick and is standing in front of the bad guys.

Wow, change the Nouns a bit and the paragraph works in reverse! :smallamused:


But seriously, Summoners are already masters of many able to cast, fight, and control all in one class. Synthesists get to be covered in their 'Eidolon armor' and easy access to evolutions while Summoners get to cast spells while their pet fighter breaks things on the same turn.

I'd say that neither is much better nor worse than the other.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, I didn't know that. However, that is a free action, so you can only do it if you would get hit in your turn.

I'm pretty sure RAI is to use it out of turn, as that is when you take most of your damage generally, and this is yet another case of "the stupid game designers don't understand what a free action means." Barbarian's rage, which can be used in intervals of "rounds," yet requires a "free action" to end (which by RAW means they have to wait till their next turn to deactivate and can never actually have a 1 round rage unless they have no more duration left, are involuntarily knocked out of it w/ calm emotions, or so forth) is another great example of this.

I don't play by strict, ridiculous RAW. If you do, I suppose that is a major hindrance in the synthesist's ability to retain his eidolon.

*weeps that more game designers aren't aware of the game concept of non-actions, like knowledge checks, 5 ft steps, and AoOs*

[panaikhan]

I am in a group with few players, so for the last campaign we ended up with two characters each.

My 'team' was: a halfling straight Synthesist, and a gnome Alchemist / Musket Master.
Synthesist wore a saddle, Alchemist sat in it.
Synthesist can buff himself (if needed), Alchemist can buff him too (with the 'inject' extract).
Synthesist has (at L10) a possible 8 attacks against anything Large or less if using Enlarge, and can fly.

[Benly]

I am in a group with few players, so for the last campaign we ended up with two characters each.

My 'team' was: a halfling straight Synthesist, and a gnome Alchemist / Musket Master.
Synthesist wore a saddle, Alchemist sat in it.
Synthesist can buff himself (if needed), Alchemist can buff him too (with the 'inject' extract).
Synthesist has (at L10) a possible 8 attacks against anything Large or less if using Enlarge, and can fly.

But is there any reason you couldn't do that with a non-Synthesist? The Summoner calls his eidolon and stands back while casting buffs, the alchemist rides it. Everything works out more or less the same, except that the Summoner is getting an extra buff cast per turn.

The Synthesist is cool and fun, but it has very little advantage over the vanilla Summoner.

[Stone Heart]

Well, I didn't know that. However, that is a free action, so you can only do it if you would get hit in your turn.

The developers have elaborated on this, it is in fact more free than a free action. You can use it whenever, your turn their turn, does not matter.

[jaybird]

The developers have elaborated on this, it is in fact more free than a free action. You can use it whenever, your turn their turn, does not matter.

Link please? Thanks.

[Larpus]

Link please? Thanks.
It's quoted by the side of the Summoner entry.


Can I use life link when it's not my turn, I'm paralyzed, or I otherwise can't take actions?

Although the ability is listed as a free action, it's something a summoner should be able to do at any time the eidolon would take enough damage to send it back to its home plane, even if it's not his turn (as is normally the case when he's being attacked), he's helpless from Strength or Dexterity poison, he's under a hold person spell, and so on. In other words, it's not an action at all, and shouldn't be listed as such.

Update: In the Life Link description, paragraph 1, sentence 2, delete "as a free action"

Editor's Note: The update has been applied.

[Benly]

It would probably have been more useful to link to their cited source (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9oh4). d20pfsrd.com, though useful, is not an official source but rather a fan-made compendium of mostly-official material, and sometimes they get things wrong; if someone needs a citation of "where was this rule changed", it's better to link to the PRD on paizo.com or (as in this case) to the appropriate FAQ or designer post.

[Stone Heart]

Yeah, I was gonna post the FAQ, but did not get on until now, thank you.

It makes it a much more useful ability.

[panaikhan]

One advantage I see.
A vanilla summoner, you have two targets - the summoner, the eidolon.
If you knock out or kill the summoner, you neutralize both.
The Synthesist, with his 'best of both world' saves, and rackloads of HP (my 10th level synthesist had over 200 when fused) is a lot harder to neutralize.

Edit - The only summoner I would contemplate over the Synthesist would be the broodmaster, and only then if someone explained the 'maximum attacks' vs 'multiple eidolons' to my satisfaction.

[Larpus]

Well, as mentioned, vanilla also means a second set of actions per round, which is quite the huge tactical advantage, you just have to be clever on how you spend your actions.

You also get more feats to spend, so the Summoner himself might be built for bow+arrow or item crafting and abuse it while the Eidolon is the bruiser, a Synthesist would have to choose one or the other.

That said, yes, the Synthesist is harder to shut down, which is why I believe he is the better "tank mage". That said, when he is shut down, he is much more likely to be screwed when compared to a normal Summoner (especially if said method of shutting down was anti magic field). Still, it seems to more or less fall into an Oracle vs. Cleric thing, whereas the Synthesist is the best "combat Summoner" overall while vanilla is a better "tactical or all around Summoner".

As for the Broodmaster...well, per my understanding, each Eidolon has separate natural attacks/round caps. But even so, never forget that they share HP, evolution points, feats and stats, so they might not be all that much more powerful than a normal Eidolon, maybe on the higher levels. Still, given the drawback, it seems to be balanced to vanilla.

[Barstro]

While in melee, the two advantages the Synthesist has over the Eidolon are its 2 extra feats and its extra HP. Otherwise, the attack bonuses, special abilities, etc. are the same.

Consider the advantage that the Eidolon's summoner sidekick grants in exchange for the 2 feats the Eidolon version effectively sacrifices:...

Three feats, if you go Human. But I think Half-Elf is still the better choice for Synthesist. (Side note, Extra Evolution Feat should be two or three points, one is useless and shows how much more powerful Half-Elf is over Human)

Anyway, the above consideration lays it out perfectly on why most people would want a regular Summoner. I've considered both, and usually cannot find a reason why two (or three) extra feats would make the eidolon all that much better than a vanilla one. Getting extra actions and sets of eyes seems much more important.

Since Synthesist in particular is such a poorly worded work-in-progress, maybe you can convince your DM to allow you to cast Target: Self spells as part of a standard action so you can attack the same round you buff.

[panaikhan]

Since Synthesist in particular is such a poorly worded work-in-progress, maybe you can convince your DM to allow you to cast Target: Self spells as part of a standard action so you can attack the same round you buff.

My GM and I came to an agreement - with the synthesist, the Eidolon is a suit. So the Eidolon doesn't need hands, human-equivalent vocal chords and pockets if the fused Synthesist wants to cast spells.

[ThiagoMartell]

My GM and I came to an agreement - with the synthesist, the Eidolon is a suit. So the Eidolon doesn't need hands, human-equivalent vocal chords and pockets if the fused Synthesist wants to cast spells.

The FAQ specifically mentions you need hands to cast spells in eidolon form

[Barstro]

The FAQ specifically mentions you need hands to cast spells in eidolon form

True. Which makes Serpent Synthesist difficult to play (and humorous to picture).

But he did say it was an agreed (house rule).

I've never fully understood how an Eidolon suit can reach into a Summoner's pocket to get items. But that's still better than the rule (that may or may not be around still) that a Synthesist can use all natural attacks, and the Summoner inside the suit can also attack with a sword through the Eidolon's body to make another attack.