Most optimized crossbow rogue EVAR

[Rickshaw]

Hey playground, its me yet again ^^
Today I'm trying to...persuade...a friend's boyfriend who is joining our group to play a crossbow rogue (as I already have a happy fun time knife rogue.) unfortunately, he thinks crossbows are weaksauce, as he says (he's a bit...rude, but only a bit.)

anyways, lets optimize a crossbow out the BUTT for a rogue (Pathfinder class, but 3.5 everything else is cool too.) already picked out things like Crossbow Sniper and deadeye shot, anyone else have things better? (of course you do, this is the Playground after all :smalltongue:)

[Red_Dog]

Try rouge/scout Ambush Hunter.

You get full skirmish & sneak attack at 60'.

Than kite, kite & kite!

Makes for a fairly cool character.
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Alternatively Thug Sneak Attack Fighter could well as you get full sneak attack progression and fullBAB and Ok skills.

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Alternatively you can dual wield hand Xbows for more sneak attacks at 60'.

If your DM interprets Hand Xbow focus as true free action reload you can get that and Xbow Sniper. Than get a way to be invisible/etc. and full attack! You can than dip exotic weapon master for one level to snag close quarter range combat to be able to shoot people point blank in the face with no issues! ^^

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Xbow sneak attackers are actually generally nice as the damage is coming from sneak attack and you can increase range to 60' at all times and up to w/e you want with sniper's eye as a swift action.

Happy shootin'! ^^

[Gavinfoxx]

Agile Enchantment (Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
Crossbow Sniper Feat (PHB II)
Dead Eye Feat (Dragon Compendium Volume One, see the errata!!)
Fierce Enchantment (Arms & Equipment Guide)
Hit and Run Fighter ACF (Drow of the underdark)
Targeteer Fighter Vital Aim ACF (Dragon Magazine #310)
Great Crossbow Equipment (Races of Stone)
Gnomish Crossbow Sight Equipment (Arms & Equipment Guide)
Darkstalker Feat (Races of Madness)
Dark Template (Tome of Magic)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphoses (Tome of Magic)

Also, if you two want to be stealthy....

read this:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

[StreamOfTheSky]

Gavin's got a pretty solid list.

Don't forget Hand Crossbow Focus (Drow of the Underdark). Saves a feat. Be sure to get Rapid Shot and TWF tree to shoot with two crossbows for many attacks. "Don't I need a hand to reload?" you ask? Simple, get two Gloves of the Master Strategist (Ghostwalk). Why? They're basically gloves of storing + true strike 1/day, allowing you to free action the weapons in and out as needed to free up a hand for reloading, and unlike the normal gloves of storing, which saw a huge price jump to 10,000 gp each in 3.5, these gloves are only 3500 each. There was a 3.5 update, and the price went unchanged. So boo yah.

Also get Sniper Goggles from PF's APG.

...What rules are being used, overall? Can this rogue get a ring of blinking and SA with it, or are you using PF's awful nerfed rules where you cannot?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Gavinfoxx, agile only works on finesseable melee weapons, IF the wielder has finesse to begin with. So... unless you are using it on a back up melee weapon, it has nothing to do with crossbows.

[doko239]

Any particular reason you want a Crossbow instead of just a bow? Generally speaking, a bow beats a crossbow if you can use it.

If you're allowed to use Traits, then offer him the following build (pure PF):

Traits: Hunter's Eye (ignore first range increment, free longbow proficiency), Reactionary (+2 Initiative)

Feats: Sap Adept, Sap Master, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot (11th level, or 9th if human)

Equipment: Merciful Distance +1 Composite Longbow, Sniper's Goggles, +X Blunt Arrows

See below for explanation:

A Distance Composite Longbow has 220 foot range. Hunter's Eye allows us to ignore the first penalty, so you can fire up to 440 feet away without penalty. Each additional 220 feet adds a cumulative -1, up to a max distance of 2200 feet. Merciful lets us deal nonlethal damage (this will be important below)

Sniper goggles let you sneak attack from any range.

Sap Adept and Sap Master both give significant bonuses to sneak attack if using a nonlethal bludgeoning weapon (such as Blunt Arrows fired from a Merciful Bow :smallbiggrin:).

Rest of the feats are self-explanatory.

Assuming Human Rogue Level 9, you'll have a BAB of +6. With Rapid Shot, you'll have 3 attacks per round from a ridiculous range; during the surprise round, all of them will be vs flat-footed targets, so sneak attack.

Your base sneak attack damage will be 5d6. Because you're dealing nonlethal to a flat-footed target with a bludgeoning weapon, we double the dice, to 10d6 (Sap Master). We then add +2 damage per sneak attack die (Sap Adept), making the damage 1d8 +10d6 + 20 on each arrow, before strength, ammo enhancement, etc.

Your sniper will be hitting from a stupid range, for an average of ~50 damage per arrow. Liquify whatever the biggest threat is, and mop up the rest.

[Gavinfoxx]

Shows you how much I know about pathfinder...

[Gandariel]

Crossbows need a LOT of feats.

i made a charachter once, focusing on Dex and Wis, because the race i used had +6 in Dex and Wis (the dm himself proposed it! it's called..uhm.. i don't remember, it's an LA-0 Tiny Fey)

Anyway i did:
1 Feat Rogue 1 (feat and skills)
2 Whirling Barbarian 1 (extra attack, hp and BAB)
3 Feat rogue 2 (feat and evasion)
4 Ninja 1 (sudden strike, Wis to AC and the ninja ability)
5 Swordsage 1
6-7 Assassin 1-2 (snkeak attack and other stuff)
8 Swordsage 2 (Shadow hand stance, for the Shadow Blade feat)
9-15 Assassin 3-9
16-20 Swordsage 3-7.

feats: twf, hand crossbow focus, xbow sniper, rapid shot, shadow blade and some others.

Using two Aptitude crossbows, i had 8d6 sneak attack(5Assassin+1Ninja+2Assassin's stance)
i had 1.5Dex to damage (shadow blade and crossbow sniper)
Wis to AC twice
a LOT of attacks (rapid shot, TWF tree, whirling frenzy)
Some useful assassin spells
a ridiculous hide&move silently
the only bad thing was, i had low BaB (like 13 i think), but i had a lot of attacks anyways.
The cool thing was, my crossbows did 1d2 damage(Tiny hand crossbows) :P

Also, i had to take Feat rogue and two flaws to make it playable from level 1(kinda weak,begins being cool at level four).
i'm not sure if i missed or did something wrong, but i guess you can take something from this..

[Azoth]

In the A&E there is a crossbow that redraws itself. The extrapolated cost for the enchant is around 10k. Mix that with self loading on 2 Light Crossbows...and you are a dualwielding full auto medieval gunman. Put splitting on the crossbow and prepair to cry. Use the Crossbow bayonet from Comple scouldrel to threaten adjacent squares.

Then go with the usual PBS, PS, TWF line, Crossbow sniper, maybe rapid shot if you can fit it.

[Person_Man]

Your friend's boyfriend is correct. Ranged weapon builds in general, and crossbow builds specifically, are quite weak. You spend a huge amount of resources for very little return. And even if you do an amazing job of optimizing it, what do you get? A character that moves and makes a full attack every round for respectable damage. And that's pretty much it.

[jaybird]

i made a charachter once, focusing on Dex and Wis, because the race i used had +6 in Dex and Wis (the dm himself proposed it! it's called..uhm.. i don't remember, it's an LA-0 Tiny Fey)


The CRAP??? :smalleek: Sage bloodline (Wis to cast) Sorcerer into Spellwarp Sniper with that...

[FMArthur]

Yeah, personality conflicts left aside, it probably isn't that good to try to 'prove' a point that is basically wrong. Firstly it's just not nice to misinform people, and secondly it leaves you open to further argumentation that will drag out and - if he knows his stuff - will not end in your favour.

You can almost always optimize to do one thing quite well using enough of your feats, levels, gear and system mastery. If his point is that this is not true, then you win by making the character. If his point is only that this is not an efficient use of your class, feats and time for the return, he wins and you don't advance your point at all by making the character.

[Gandariel]

The CRAP??? :smalleek: Sage bloodline (Wis to cast) Sorcerer into Spellwarp Sniper with that...

Yeah, i know it's not the most optimized or good thing, but i didn't want to be a caster ^^

[StreamOfTheSky]

i made a charachter once, focusing on Dex and Wis, because the race i used had +6 in Dex and Wis (the dm himself proposed it! it's called..uhm.. i don't remember, it's an LA-0 Tiny Fey)

Jermalaine, perhaps?

[Gandariel]

Jermalaine, perhaps?

Yes!!
Its stat adjustments were, IIRC,
-6 Str
+6 Dex
-2 Con
-2 Int
+6 Wis
-6 Cha

A silly race, i concur, and i guess there are a lot of better ways to use it (and better ways to fight with crossbows)

Anyway, it's been fun to create and play (although i only played it during levels 1-5, where he.. actually wasn't bad at all. Four attacks* doing 1d2+4+1d6 or something, with actually good accuracy. Also i had a very high AC and i had just gotten my first Swordsage level)

*Normal one, plus TWF, plus Rapid shot, plus Whirling frenzy

[Rickshaw]

Thanks for all the good -constructive- advice! showed him some of the stuff, he said he really liked the idea, and showed him some builds that might be fun, and he decided on a rogue/scout/fighter build that fits the flavor of what he's trying to play.

Also, some clarification: since this is an urban campaign with mostly indoors or underground combat, crazy range isn't really that important or practical. second off, this is a low op group and you could do much worse than a drow with a crossbow or two for damage. he's also a new player, so he actually asked for something that would let him do very simple things in combat.

Thanks Playground!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

you know, I woulda just let him play a melee rogue alongside you... do you know how long i have wanted to play in a party as a rogue with another rogue?! Super flanking buddies FOREVAR!

[StreamOfTheSky]

you know, I woulda just let him play a melee rogue alongside you... do you know how long i have wanted to play in a party as a rogue with another rogue?! Super flanking buddies FOREVAR!

Both with Staggering Strike, Combat Reflexes, and Backstab (anytime you're flanking and foe doesn't attack you, it provokes an AoO from you) feats, and Penetrating Strike alt. class features! Man, that would be nice!

[Kulture]

The following feats and items are from Eberron Torn asunder, one of the most obscure and sickeningly broken splat books in 3.5's history:

Feats:

Hamstring:
On a sneak attack you force your target to take a 10+half your level save or take a -6 to dex, halve their speed and be considered flat footed until they either be healed of the ability damage or get a heal check equal to the DC.
Low DCs are mitigated by it being a flat bonus effect and the hideous effect.
Also allows ranged SA without the need for sniping.

Perfect shot:
Add Dex to damage in place of strength, even without the mighty effect you get full dex bonus. This will stack with Dead eye and Crossbow sniper for a total of 2.5xDex bonus damage.

Enhanced critical:
Basically it's Mighty criticals. Plus one factor of critical, so x2 becomes x3 and so on.

Greater critical:
Triple threat range with selected weapon, doesn't stack.


Items:

Tripple Threat Crossbow:
Simple heavy crossbow that fire 3 bolts at once as a single attack with 3 different rolls. Needs 2 hands. Essentially a way to triple your number of attacks for next to nothing.

Lung Piercer bolts:
-1 damage, slightly reduced range but on a crit they do 1d6 temp con damage and force a fort save (DC 10+Your ranged to hit bonus(!)) or begin to die from suffocation as the lung collapses.

Piercer bolts:
Penetrates first rank and hits targets behind on a crit. -30ft range, 18-20/x3 crit.


Magical upgrades:

Steel phase:
+2 cost, Totally ignores all physical interference from iron and steel, including AC bonuses of any kind given by such items.

Archer's eye:
Prosthetic eye that gives normal sight, +4 to perception and the far shot feat for 26k (8k creation costs)

Glass eye of vision:
Prosthetic eye that gives +4 perception (again, untyped) and true seeing 3/day.

Glass eye of enhanced vision:
Constant true seeing, immunity to gaze effects. -1 charisma check mod without ways to hide it.

If you have pathfinder access also consider the focus shot feat which lets you add intelligence to damage with ranged weapons.

Also, there's nothing stating that crossbows can't be made from Kaorti resin, since they are a piercing weapon.

Crit range 12-20/x4 triple threat scoped great crossbow sound good?
Use the lung piercers and you'll pretty much mob them with so many save or slowly die effects that half of your targets will die horrifically before the barbarian even reaches melee.

Not as sick as my Assassin base class build that can force a DC 98 fort save or death effect at level 7, but I have looked through my books and these look to be the most promising entries. Where you fit them into the build is your prerogative.

Other options to consider include the Sepulchral Thief +2 LA template which is essentially a really snacky stealth-lich.
I've worked out that one build I had with decent rolled stats ended up with a 1.09% chance to kill the Tarrasque in the first volley of fire.
At ECL 7.
With Standard gear.
In the surprise round.