Beguiler Build Help

[White_Drake]

My current character is getting married, so I'm looking into bringing in a sub (probably a cohort) while he works things out with the Mrs. I've decided on a Beguiler, but I've never played a caster, and I have no clue what I'm doing. Here's what I've got:
Race:
Lesser Magic-Blooded Tiefling
Class:
Beguiler 7
Prestige Classes:
Mountebank 2
Arcane Trickster 1
Daggerspell Mage 10
Feats:
Arcane Thesis (Dominate Monster)
Arcane Thesis (Charm Monster)
Combat Casting
Combat Charm
Sudden Silent
Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Flaws:
Restricted Sorcery (Evocation & Necromancy)
Weapon Bound (Wee Jas)

Does that want to make you claw out you're eyes, or did I somehow get it halfway-decent?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler 5/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 14 is pretty standard, you really can't go wrong with that.

Feats should definitely include Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon. With Sanctum Spell or Heighten Spell or a Bloodline feat (Dragon Compendium) you'll gain knowledge of the spells on your class list of a level higher than what you have spell slots for, and you can use Versatile Spellcaster to cast them. That means your Advanced Learning spells can be up to 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th level. My personal choices for those are Ray of Stupidity, Shadow Form, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Shadow Evocation, and Superior Invisibility.

An even stronger option would be the Magical Training feat from PGtF, which gives you a spellbook into which you've already scribed several spells, so (RAW questionable) you should be able to add more spells to your spellbook just as a Wizard does. You can then use Versatile Spellcaster to spend Beguiler spell slots two at a time to cast those spells. You'll probably need to have your spellbook open to the desired spell to cast it, so it's not extremely useful in combat, but it definitely adds a ton of versatility to the character.

Also get the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness (p126), which is especially good with Ray of Stupidity. You get Silent Spell and Still Spell for free, so Metamagic School Focus (CM) should be better than Sudden Silent since you should have Spell Focus for Enchantment and/or Illusion anyway. You shouldn't ever need to make a melee attack, so forget about Daggerspell Mage or even owning any weapons. A Beguiler should use skills, spells, and trickery to overcome his foes, weapon attacks aren't something he's good at so it's not something you should even bother with.

[Spuddles]

Why arcane thesis on those spells? Do you even have any metamagic? And arent you giving up like 5 caster levels with those prestige classes? Why? You are missing an obligatory mindbender dip (gets you knowledge skills too!). Telepathy is useful. If daggerspell whatsit has less than 6 skill points a level, it's not worth it. Sneak attack isn't that good on beguiler. Beguiler20, for what a beguiler should do, is probably best. Mindbender at 6 to delay advanced learning is, imo, mandatory.

Get versatile spell caster, esp if it gives you early spell access.

[Morph Bark]

+1 on Mindbender with Mindsight. Also, if you don't have any metamagic, I believe you cannot take Arcane Thesis. I wouldn't put it on Charm Monster anyway if I were you, unless you got Irresistible Spell from Kingdoms of Kalamar.

[prototype00]

Its been a while since I've played 3.5, but before I left, the prevailing optimization for a Beguiler was to play a gnome, and take shadowcraft mage at some point for pure damage potential.

Lets see if I can pull up the optimization guide...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872354/Shadowcraft_Mage_Handbook

Enjoy!

prototype00

[Deox]

Beguiler / Mindbender / Rainbow Servant ? Add all the cleric spells to your list and cast them spontaneously.

[Analytica]

I've always wanted to do Beguiler/Sand Shaper, really...

[Darth Stabber]

Arcane thesis is a great feat in certain situations, but beguiler's spell list has very few things that are good for it. Thesis should be taken on spells that you use frequently, and work well with metamagic. Generic save or suck spells don't really cut it. Enervation is great with arcane thesis, it supports a number of metamagic feats very well, and will kill or at least cripple anything you hit with it. Sonic orb likewise works well. Charm and dominate don't really gain enough benefit from metamagic to spend a feat on it. Silent, still, quicken, and highten are the only likely candidates, and quicken is the only one even remotely worth it.

[Elfinor]

Is there a specific concept that you're going for? It looks like you want a Beguiler Build with Sneak Attack. As is, you do not meet the prerequisites for your Prestige Classes.

Arcane Trickster requires Mage Hand (not on the Beguiler spell list)
Mountebank requires Deceitful (but you have a spare feat slot)
Daggerspell Mage requires Two-Weapon Fighting (but you have a spare feat slot)


Minimalist Intervention
Mountebank is dead weight. It has a useless feat tax, you lose two caster levels, you have all the Bluff skill you need from Glibness and Sneak Attack can be obtained more efficiently from another class. I'd suggest replacing it with one level of Spellthief (CAdv): Grabbing the Master Spellthief feat (CSco) means you can steal spells as high as your total level in all caster classes.

Arcane Trickster should be replaced with Unseen Seer (Complete Mage). It's easier to qualify for, gives more skill points and has better class features.

Daggerspell Mage is, generally speaking, a good skill-gish prestige class but synergises poorly with the very un-gishy Beguiler. The Beguiler spell list has few offensive buff spells [good defensive ones, though], only a couple of touch spells and no energy spells. This means a lot of your class features are useless. Assuming you want to use the feat-intensive TWF style, it still isn't bad. You should consider a switch to Unseen Seer (again) though. Its class features are much more useful and it has a faster SA progression.

Beguiler 4/Spellthief 1/Unseen Seer 10/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 4

Is legal, has the same or slightly better BAB/HP/skills, one extra die of SA, two extra caster levels, more useful class features, a more useful and less expensive 'feat tax' (Master Spellthief only) and potential Mindsight.

Feats? People have mentioned good ones, but Rapid Metamagic is an unmentioned good choice, because it's necessary for Quicken Spell to see any use. Conceal Spellcasting (a skill trick, Complete Scoundrel) is more useful than Sudden Silent and less 'expensive' - costing only 2 skill points.

[White_Drake]

I'm going for a rogue-y gishy type thing, but I've no clue on how to do it. I'd prefer something that's fun and simple, even at the cost of power, because, like I said, this guy will only be temporary, before being relegated to a wand/potion factory for my rogue.

[Elfinor]

At roughly which levels will the cohort be played at before being relegated to a support role?

[Thespianus]

I'm going for a rogue-y gishy type thing, but I've no clue on how to do it. I'd prefer something that's fun and simple, even at the cost of power, because, like I said, this guy will only be temporary, before being relegated to a wand/potion factory for my rogue.

Beguiler 4/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer ?

You get some decent Sneak Attack abilities, you get plenty of skill points and you get to add some new spells to your spell list (Hunter's Eye for plenty of Sneak Attack, maybe?)

Not super optimal, but a fun addition to the Beguiler skill set, I think.

[Elfinor]

Beguiler 4/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer ?

You get some decent Sneak Attack abilities, you get plenty of skill points and you get to add some new spells to your spell list (Hunter's Eye for plenty of Sneak Attack, maybe?)

Not super optimal, but a fun addition to the Beguiler skill set, I think. For concept, that works pretty damn well. Rogue has the following advantages over Spellthief:

8 extra skill points (if taken at Level 1)
RAW legality for switching redundant Trapfinding with Poison UseDotU (though some DMs allow ACF chaining, so you might still be able to do it with Spellthief) or Changeling Rogue
No haggling with the DM over the rules of Master Spellthief (specifically, storing spells after stealing them)
Better Weapon Proficiencies (neutered by flaw)

In exchange for losing the ability to Steal Spells:smallfrown:

Hunter's Eye is golden. Other good attack-buff Advanced Learning options are Sniper's Shot, True Strike and Grave/Golem/Vine Strike. Divine Insight and Guidance of the Avatar are brilliant skill-improving spells. With Unseen Seer to provide extra offensive capability, Beguiler is probably the simplest effective mage-base. There's the trouble of what to take afterwards, but hopefully by then the character will be retired and can just take Master Alchemist or something:smalltongue:

EDIT: And the Craven feat is always a good choice for a Sneak Attacker.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going for a rogue-y gishy type thing

That will be an extremely complicated character if it's going to be viable at all. You've already said that you've never played a caster before, so I'd advise against the above just to make things easier on you. A single-classed Beguiler (with a Mindbender dip of course) is a perfectly viable character if played correctly, and a perfect opportunity to practice playing a dedicated spellcaster. Each time you're able to cast a new level of spells, read up on your spells of that level, maybe put them on a list with a brief reminder of what they do, and pick out some favorites for combat. Get a decent Shortbow and maybe a stack of +1 Spell Storing Arrows to use when you don't really need to cast any more spells. In the early levels, Color Spray and Glitterdust are going to be amazing, and Haste will be a huge benefit to your party. Later on Glitterdust is still amazing, and Haste, Slow, Confusion, Hold Monster, and Dominate Person will be some of your stronger choices. Outside of combat you'll never find yourself in a situation that you won't have a spell or skill that can deal with it.

If you go with a Rogue-Gish build, you may find yourself playing it as a Rogue and not even using your spells in combat, which would be a bit wasteful and won't help you learn spellcasters at all. You'll be able to contribute more in combat by keeping your opponents from acting than full attacking with sneak attacks, and if you spend every round full attacking then what was the point of losing more BAB and sneak attack to gain spells in the first place? On top of that, you'll be spending your feats on being better in combat instead of being a better spellcaster, and you'll miss out on fun choices like Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (DMG, CW).


If you insist on going with a Rogue-Gish Beguiler, I typed up the following before I decided that the above advice would be better.
Beguiler does not have the spell selection to make a suitable gish. Rogue-y classes and arcane rogue prestige classes lack the BAB to make them suitable for a gish character. Here's what you're going to need for this to be successful:

1. Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MIC), which gives you Improved Two-Weapon Fighting before you meet the BAB prerequisite, for which you're otherwise waiting until 10th+ level.

2. Minor Shapeshift reserve feat (CM), for which you need to be able to cast Polymorph or similar. This can be resolved with a custom Runestaff (MIC) and sufficient UMD to use it with your Beguiler casting.

3. Wraithstrike (SpC), preferably made Persistent (CA). It won't really work to spam this from a wand, since it takes your swift action and you wont' be able to use Minor Shapeshift for temporary HP in any round that you cast it. You'll be lacking the BAB and combat focus to reliably hit your targets, so being able to bypass most AC bonuses will be necessary. You could grab a few levels of Incantatrix (PGtF) for Persistent Spell shenanigans, but it's extremely high-op and won't mesh well with most games. Without this, you'll run into frustration round after round as you repeatedly miss on one attack after another, considering how low your BAB will be.

4. A Freedom of Movement effect. The two common ways of achieving this are a Ring of Freedom of Movement or the Heart of Water spell (CM). You can put Heart of Water on a custom Runestaff (MIC) and UMD it to work with your Beguiler casting. Enemies you melee will often have Improved Grab, plus it takes care of Slow, Web, Solid Fog, and just about anything else that may hinder you.

Just remember that for the first few rounds of combat, you should be casting buffs on yourself and your party (Haste, Mirror Image) and debuffing your opponents (Glitterdust, Confusion). Don't rush into melee right away because you'll probably get killed, try to stay out of melee until most/all of your foes are debuffed or at least partially disabled, and only go attack something that's already hurt and fighting someone else and thus less likely to turn on you.

[White_Drake]

It should be noted that I'm much more partial to the character concept than any of the stuff I posted about a specific build; I thought (wrongly) Beguiler would make a good choice due to the stealthy nature of the class and the lighter armor restrictions. I really would prefer to have some Rogue skills, just because my current character is the only Rogue in the party. The cohort in question will probably be brought in at 10th-12th and phased out at 13th-14th. (I'm currently 14th level, although I think that I'll have enough experience to hit 15 after we tally up last session's xp.)

[dspeyer]

What "rogue skills" does straight beguiler not offer? It's a pretty good skill list as it is.

For combat capability, I might suggest Arcane Disciple(competition). Once a day you spend two spells to turn into a melee powerhouse. And it only costs a feat.