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Ralasha
2012-05-21, 09:05 PM
Most warriors use the better known and more recent fighting styles, from swinging a two handed weapon, to using a one handed weapon with a shield, or even two or more weapons simultaneously. The Hoplite however, is a warrior that has trained extensively to use a spear and a shield in combination. This gives them the distinct advantage of having a ranged melee attack along with the bonuses of a shield. An ancient fighting style, tried, tested and adapted until it worked as well as other forms of fighting, and under many circumstances even better.

Requirements:
BAB: +6
Feats: Weapon Focus (any spear), Shield Focus
Proficiencies: Shields, and spears.

Hit Dice: D12

Skills: 4+Int Mod
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

{table]Level|BAB|FS|RS|WS|Special|Shield Bonus
1|1|2|2|0|Strapped Shield, Improved Reach|1
2|2|3|3|0|Shield Block, Shielded Evasion|1
3|3|3|3|1|Batter, Unflankable|2
4|4|4|4|1|Piercing Strike, Cover|2
5|5|4|4|1|Improved Shielded Evasion, Leaping Strike|3[/table]
Shield Bonus (EX): The Hoplite gains an insight bonus to AC whenever using a shield. This bonus counts towards FF and Touch ACs.
Strapped Shield (EX): The Hoplite straps their shield to their arm, allowing them to use both hands with their spear.
Improved Reach (EX): The Hoplite may add/subtract five feet to/from the reach of any spear. While the reach is subtracted, the spear counts in all ways as a one handed weapon (though it may be used with two).
Shield Block (EX): The Hoplite may block one attack directed at it each round. This is an immediate action.
Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped they gain the benefits of having the evasion feat. This effect does not stack with evasion as normal.
Batter (EX): Whenever an opponent comes within 5' of the Hoplite, so long as the Hoplite has a shield equipped the hoplite may perform an AoA against that opponent as a swift action, this deals damage as according to the shield, and knocks the opponent back 10 feet on a failed reflex save of 10+Str Mod+Hoplite Level+Damage Dealt.
Unflankable (EX): The Hoplite can parry with shield as well as spear, and denies enemies any flanking bonus against it.
Piercing Strike: Whenever the Hoplite makes an attack against an enemy within range of their weapon, and an enemy is on the opposite side (of the target) apply the Hoplites attack against both enemies.
Cover (Ex): The Hoplite huddles beneath the shield, causing the enemy to have a miss chance as follows. Buckler: 15% 1, Light Shield: 25% 2, Heavy Shield 35% 3, Tower 50% 4. The Hoplite suffers an attack penalty and gains a bonus to ac (next to cover %, same as attack penalty) based on the type of shield equipped.
Improved Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped it counts as having the Improved Evasion class feature.
Leaping Strike (EX): Any enemy within 5' of the Hoplite's reach may be subject to a special charge attack. The Hoplite doubles the attacks damage on a successful hit. No additional Movement is necessary. This ability otherwise works as a standard charge.

Madara
2012-05-21, 09:55 PM
Most warriors use the better known and more recent fighting styles, from swinging a two handed weapon, to using a one handed weapon with a shield, or even two or more weapons simultaneously. The Hoplite however, is a warrior that has trained extensively to use a spear and a shield in combination. This gives them the distinct advantage of having a ranged melee attack along with the bonuses of a shield. An ancient fighting style, tried, tested and adapted until it worked as well as other forms of fighting, and under many circumstances even better.

A little formatting and a picture could go a long way.


Requirements:
BAB: +6
Feats: Weapon Focus (any spear), Shield Focus
Proficiencies: Shields, and spears.

*Cough* *Spatters juice on the keyboard(I don't drink coffee)*

No, these are trap feats, they are awful, and will cripple the already low tier melee fighter. Pick feats that people are likely to take, or that represent the style. You could probably find some in Complete Warrior.



Skills: 4+Int Mod
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

4 skill points, and a fairly good list, this works



Shield Bonus (EX): The Hoplite gains a miscellaneous shield bonus to AC whenever using a shield.

This is good, specify "As represented in the table". Also, I think the bonus is too low. AC isn't all that great, so there's nothing wrong with giving a bonus equal to level when wielding a shield and spear.


Strapped Shield (EX): The Hoplite straps their shield to their arm, allowing them to use both hands with their spear.

Yep. Without this, the whole concept would fail, I'm glad you address it.


Improved Reach (EX): The Hoplite may add/subtract five feet to/from the reach of any spear. While the reach is subtracted, the spear counts in all ways as a one handed weapon (though it may be used with two).

Nice. It allows the character to gain capabilities in Battlefield Control.


Shield Block (EX): The Hoplite may block one attack directed at it each round. This is a swift action.

Cool. But its overpowered. You need to specify X/day, or X total damage from one attack. Maybe just have it grant DR?


Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped they gain the benefits of having the evasion feat. This effect does not stack with evasion as normal.
I like how you're addressing the other problems with defense, this adds a better dimension to the character.

Batter (EX): Whenever an opponent comes within 5' of the Hoplite, so long as the Hoplite has a shield equipped the hoplite may attempt a bullrush against that opponent as a swift action, this Bullrush does not require any movement, and deals damage as according to the shield. This otherwise acts as a standard Bullrush.

You could just have it be a shield bash, because you need more than 5' to bullrush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge.

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. -SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush)



Unflankable (EX): The Hoplite can parry with shield as well as spear, and denies enemies any flanking bonus against it.
Just say "Cannot be flanked". This works out to block most sneak attacks, so be aware of that.


Piercing Strike: Whenever the Hoplite makes an attack against an enemy within range of their weapon, and an enemy is on the opposite side (of the target) apply the Hoplites attack against both enemies. Damage against the second enemy (if the hit is successful) is halved.

Its pretty useful. Still not over T5/4 but its unique.


Cover (Ex): The Hoplite huddles beneath the shield, granting a cover bonus against all attacks. Buckler: 15% -1, Light Shield: 25% -2, Heavy Shield 35% -3, Tower 50% -4. The Hoplite suffers an attack penalty (next to cover %.)

Doesn't the Tower Shield already grant cover?


Improved Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped it counts as having the Improved Evasion class feature.

More of the above. It feels a little bland, but Evasion is always useful.


Leaping Strike (EX): Any enemy within 5' of the Hoplite's reach may be subject to a special charge attack. The Hoplite doubles the attacks damage on a successful hit. This ability otherwise works as a standard charge.

That's like auto-critical. But it is the capstone of the class. So its not overpowered.

Overall, I feel it needs some more unique-ness and flexibility. It falls rather low on the power scale, melee usually does, but don't be afraid to add some power, you have room to work without breaking it. :smallsmile:

Ralasha
2012-05-21, 10:20 PM
Shield Bonus (EX): The Hoplite gains a miscellaneous shield bonus to AC whenever using a shield.This is good, specify "As represented in the table". Also, I think the bonus is too low. AC isn't all that great, so there's nothing wrong with giving a bonus equal to level when wielding a shield and spear.
I'll change it to a Miscellaneous bonus. That way it will count towards FF/Touch as well as normal.


Strapped Shield (EX): The Hoplite straps their shield to their arm, allowing them to use both hands with their spear.Yep. Without this, the whole concept would fail, I'm glad you address it. It seemed perfectly obvious.


Improved Reach (EX): The Hoplite may add/subtract five feet to/from the reach of any spear. While the reach is subtracted, the spear counts in all ways as a one handed weapon (though it may be used with two).Nice. It allows the character to gain capabilities in Battlefield Control. As intended.




Shield Block (EX): The Hoplite may block one attack directed at it each round. This is a swift action.Cool. But its overpowered. You need to specify X/day, or X total damage from one attack. Maybe just have it grant DR?May I ask why I should limit it? It only blocks one singlular, individual attack each round. You're down to 5 HP, the giant criticals, you've already used your block today, you're boned?




Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped they gain the benefits of having the evasion feat. This effect does not stack with evasion as normal.




Batter (EX): Whenever an opponent comes within 5' of the Hoplite, so long as the Hoplite has a shield equipped the hoplite may attempt perform an AoA against that opponent as a swift action, this deals damage as according to the shield, and knocks the opponent back 10 feet on a fail reflex save of 10+Str Mod+Hoplite Level+Damage Dealt.You could just have it be a shield bash, because you need more than 5' to bullrushShield Bash is an actual thing, this is a shield bash with knockback. I'll find some way to... modify the text. There, is that better for you?




Unflankable (EX): The Hoplite can parry with shield as well as spear, and denies enemies any flanking bonus against it.Just say "Cannot be flanked". This works out to block most sneak attacks, so be aware of that. The fact is the Hoplite is still flanked, the enemies just don't get any bonuses against it because of that. The sneak attack is still a sneak attack, you just don't get your bonus to hit.




Piercing Strike: Whenever the Hoplite makes an attack against an enemy within range of their weapon, and an enemy is on the opposite side (of the target) apply the Hoplites attack against both enemies.Its pretty useful. Still not over T5/4 but its unique. Is this better?




Cover (Ex): The Hoplite huddles beneath the shield, granting a cover bonus against all attacks. Buckler: 15% -1, Light Shield: 25% -2, Heavy Shield 35% -3, Tower 50% -4. The Hoplite suffers an attack penalty (next to cover %.)Doesn't the Tower Shield already grant cover?
However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else. Yes, however, it's total cover, and you cannot normally bash with one, nor attack while using it for cover. This ability does not have that restriction.




Improved Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped it counts as having the Improved Evasion class feature.More of the above. It feels a little bland, but Evasion is always useful.It is bland. It is however, also intended to give the melee type a better chance against Spellcasters.




Leaping Strike (EX): Any enemy within 5' of the Hoplite's reach may be subject to a special charge attack. The Hoplite doubles the attacks damage on a successful hit. This ability otherwise works as a standard charge.That's like auto-critical. But it is the capstone of the class. So its not overpowered. It is auto-critical without any extra damage, such as from flaming, bane, strength, etc.


Overall, I feel it needs some more unique-ness and flexibility. It falls rather low on the power scale, melee usually does, but don't be afraid to add some power, you have room to work without breaking it. :smallsmile:

Afraid, I am not, aiming for Tier 4 or 3 I am. I enjoy Tier's 3 and 4. I enjoy them thoroughly.

I forgot the Hit Dice. -.- If I am missing Uniqueness, perchance you have an example of a class similar to this one on hand? I would love to see a WotC spear and shield PrC.

ngilop
2012-05-21, 10:53 PM
Most warriors use the better known and more recent fighting styles, from swinging a two handed weapon, to using a one handed weapon with a shield, or even two or more weapons simultaneously. The Hoplite however, is a warrior that has trained extensively to use a spear and a shield in combination. This gives them the distinct advantage of having a ranged melee attack along with the bonuses of a shield. An ancient fighting style, tried, tested and adapted until it worked as well as other forms of fighting, and under many circumstances even better.

Requirements:
BAB: +6
Feats: Weapon Focus (any spear), Shield Focus
Proficiencies: Shields, and spears.

Hit Dice: D12

Skills: 4+Int Mod
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

{table]Level|BAB|FS|RS|WS|Special|Shield Bonus
1|1|2|2|0|Strapped Shield, Improved Reach|1
2|2|3|3|0|Shield Block, Shielded Evasion|1
3|3|3|3|1|Batter, Unflankable|2
4|4|4|4|1|Piercing Strike, Cover|2
5|5|4|4|1|Improved Shielded Evasion, Leaping Strike|3[/table]
Shield Bonus (EX): The Hoplite gains a miscellaneous bonus to AC whenever using a shield. This bonus counts towards FF and Touch ACs.
Strapped Shield (EX): The Hoplite straps their shield to their arm, allowing them to use both hands with their spear.
Improved Reach (EX): The Hoplite may add/subtract five feet to/from the reach of any spear. While the reach is subtracted, the spear counts in all ways as a one handed weapon (though it may be used with two).
Shield Block (EX): The Hoplite may block one attack directed at it each round. This is a swift action.
Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped they gain the benefits of having the evasion feat. This effect does not stack with evasion as normal.
Batter (EX): Whenever an opponent comes within 5' of the Hoplite, so long as the Hoplite has a shield equipped the hoplite may perform an AoA against that opponent as a swift action, this deals damage as according to the shield, and knocks the opponent back 10 feet on a failed reflex save of 10+Str Mod+Hoplite Level+Damage Dealt.
Unflankable (EX): The Hoplite can parry with shield as well as spear, and denies enemies any flanking bonus against it.
Piercing Strike: Whenever the Hoplite makes an attack against an enemy within range of their weapon, and an enemy is on the opposite side (of the target) apply the Hoplites attack against both enemies. Damage against the second enemy (if the hit is successful) is halved.
Cover (Ex): The Hoplite huddles beneath the shield, granting a cover bonus against all attacks. Buckler: 15% -1, Light Shield: 25% -2, Heavy Shield 35% -3, Tower 50% -4. The Hoplite suffers an attack penalty (next to cover %.)
Improved Shielded Evasion (EX): Whenever the Hoplite has a shield equipped it counts as having the Improved Evasion class feature.
Leaping Strike (EX): Any enemy within 5' of the Hoplite's reach may be subject to a special charge attack. The Hoplite doubles the attacks damage on a successful hit. This ability otherwise works as a standard charge.

1) make the SHield bonus an Insight bonus as it is an actual existing type of bonus already. and it applies to FF/Touch attacks already

2) make cover a pure Miss CHance, that way there is no getting around it.

3) Shield BLock should not be a switf action, as you don't get atatck during your turn. make it an immediate action and we are golden!

Debihuman
2012-05-22, 04:20 AM
Batter should have a standard save. You should mention the damage is the same as a shield bash (which isn't much)

Batter (Ex): Whenever an opponent comes within 5 feet of the hoplite and as long as the hoplite has a shield equipped, the hoplite may perform an Attack of Opportunity against that opponent as a Swift action. This deals damage as a shield bash and knocks the opponent back 10 feet on a failed Reflex save. The save DC is 10 + ˝ Hoplite’s HD + Str modifier. See weapons table for shield bash damage.

How is Unflankable different from Improved Uncanny Dodge?

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, the hoplite can no longer be flanked. This stacks with any levels received from another class.

Piercing Strike should be worded to make it clear where both enemies must be standing. You should note how this affects smaller creatures. Also, if you skewer more than one opponent with your spear, there should be additional effects.

Piercing Strike (Ex): Whenever a hoplite makes an attack against an enemy within range of the hoplite’s weapon and an additional enemy occupies the square behind the first enemy, apply the hoplite’s attack against both enemies. If the enemies are smaller than the hopite and more than one occupies the same square, all within reach are skewered. Skewered opponents are held immobilized (but not helpless) by the spear. Removing the spear from multiple opponents takes one round and each skewered opponent takes the same amount of damage again during that round (no save). Until they are freed from the spear, opponents take a - 5 penalty to attack you.

This makes up for the fact that you can't attack while you have multiple opponents on your spear but moving the spear through more than one body should cause additional damage.

Cover should be worded more clearly. If you are huddled under your shield, you should only be able to move at half speed. The bonus to AC should be a Circumstance bonus (i.e. you only get it if you are huddled under your shield). The attack penalty is mentioned by you didn't say how much.

Cover (Ex): A hoplite can huddle beneath his or her shield, causing any foe to have a miss chance as follows. Buckler: 15%, Light Shield: 25%, Heavy Shield 35% and Tower Shield 50%. In addition, a hoplite gains a circumstance bonus to Armor Class but takes a commensurate attack penalty based on the type of shield equipped: Buckler +1 AC, -1 to attack; Light Shield +2 to AC, -2 to attack; Heavy Shield +3 to AC, -3 to attack; and Tower Shield +4 to AC, -4 to attack. Last of all, a hoplite can only move at half speed while huddling under his shield.

What do you think?

Debby

Ralasha
2012-05-22, 02:43 PM
Batter should have a standard save. You should mention the damage is the same as a shield bash (which isn't much)

Batter (Ex): Whenever an opponent comes within 5 feet of the hoplite and as long as the hoplite has a shield equipped, the hoplite may perform an Attack of Opportunity against that opponent as a Swift action. This deals damage as a shield bash and knocks the opponent back 10 feet on a failed Reflex save. The save DC is 10 + ˝ Hoplite’s HD + Str modifier. See weapons table for shield bash damage. A save the enemy will never fail.


How is Unflankable different from Improved Uncanny Dodge?

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, the hoplite can no longer be flanked. This stacks with any levels received from another class. No, Unflankable doesn't prevent the character from being flanked, you just don't get the attack bonus.


Piercing Strike should be worded to make it clear where both enemies must be standing. You should note how this affects smaller creatures. Also, if you skewer more than one opponent with your spear, there should be additional effects.

Piercing Strike (Ex): Whenever a hoplite makes an attack against an enemy within range of the hoplite’s weapon and an additional enemy occupies the square behind the first enemy, apply the hoplite’s attack against both enemies. If the enemies are smaller than the hopite and more than one occupies the same square, all within reach are skewered. Skewered opponents are held immobilized (but not helpless) by the spear. Removing the spear from multiple opponents takes one round and each skewered opponent takes the same amount of damage again during that round (no save). Until they are freed from the spear, opponents take a - 5 penalty to attack you. No, this also makes this ability completely useless. It isn't intended to skewer opponents in the first place, you cannot however, normally attack one enemy past another.


This makes up for the fact that you can't attack while you have multiple opponents on your spear but moving the spear through more than one body should cause additional damage. You can't move your spear... which is what this class is built around. Let's make a melee fighter that can't attack.


Cover should be worded more clearly. If you are huddled under your shield, you should only be able to move at half speed. The bonus to AC should be a Circumstance bonus (i.e. you only get it if you are huddled under your shield). The attack penalty is mentioned by you didn't say how much.

Cover (Ex): A hoplite can huddle beneath his or her shield, causing any foe to have a miss chance as follows. Buckler: 15%, Light Shield: 25%, Heavy Shield 35% and Tower Shield 50%. In addition, a hoplite gains a circumstance bonus to Armor Class but takes a commensurate attack penalty based on the type of shield equipped: Buckler +1 AC, -1 to attack; Light Shield +2 to AC, -2 to attack; Heavy Shield +3 to AC, -3 to attack; and Tower Shield +4 to AC, -4 to attack. Last of all, a hoplite can only move at half speed while huddling under his shield. No, it does not hide beneath its shield. Also, I HAVE it worded so that both the bonus and penalty are the same. Please read the original entry again. It ducks behind the shield, and (as mentioned before) can parry as well with spear, as with shield. Two sides, two weapons, got it covered.


What do you think?

Debby

I think I'm not going for tier 5, but I thank you for your nerfing input.