Antimagic Field in a mid-high OP game [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

mucco

2012-05-21, 11:33 PM

My party has hit upon a couple very reliable tricks for dealing with enemies, involving AMF. I've talked to them about it and since we're all quite mature and have experience with 3.5, we found some ideas to deal with them. However, the playground's opinion is always very welcome!

Party: Dread Necro 8/Walker in the Waste 9, Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 2, Psion 16/Anarchic Initiate 1. Highlights: minion master with minions able to roll a 50 in grapple, gish with AMF (and good resilience to boot), psion with Crystal Shard.

The trick that they've been abusing has been quite unstoppable at dealing with single enemies. First, the melee closes range and activates AMF. Then, depending on the situation, either the (now unprotected) target is blasted into oblivion with an Empowered Twinned Overchanneled Crystal Shard, or it is grappled by one of the hulking minions available to the party. Lacking any form of Freedom of Movement, the target will never exit the grapple as long as the AMF stays up. One variant that my players just created was to have one big minion make Bull Rush attacks against the party's AMF'ed gish, to move him around into enemy range even outside of his turn.

I don't want my game to turn into a collection of cheaters of Mystra or all-ex monsters with crazy touch AC, or colossal beasts. AMF is a really strong I-win button. Through the years, I've been disallowing any easy win buttons I've found while keeping the game somewhat high-powered. This one, however, poses quite the challenge. What to do?

I'm leaning on banning AMF altogether. It pains me, because that's such an iconic spell. But when the game relies so much on WBL or magical abilities to keep somewhat of a challenge, AMF just becomes too binary an ability to make things fun: either the gish dies brutally shortly after because he screwed up, or the match is easily won. Too cheap.

Yes I know, "vary challenges, make more monsters at the same time, make some immune to stuff, ad-hoc things so that some stuff doesn't work", well yeah, I'm not looking into this type of advice. I want a clear-cut nerf.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-05-22, 12:16 AM

Monsters with mundane flight. Opponents with instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) spells such as Orb of [Energy]. Enemies who are good at grappling. Encounters that get the jump on the PCs. Monsters that can't be defeated while in AMF, such as with Regeneration. Opponents with mundanely high stats and AC.

Keep track of how the Dread Necro has control over all of his minions. Chances are most of them he created himself, and others he used Rebuke Undead to control. In some cases though, he may have used the spell Command Undead, which is an ongoing spell effect and will be suppressed in an AMF. If that's the case, then those undead will be uncontrolled and immediately turn on the party once they're in the AMF.

I would make a religious organization/cult which worships a god of magic take serious offense to the PCs' anti-magic activities. They diligently observe the state of magic in the setting and watch out for anything that may disrupt it, and the PCs have caught their eye. They could notice Prying Eyes or similar scrying effects, maybe in their favorite tavern they hear that someone was asking around about them. Maybe the cultists will warn them to stop, maybe if they cast AMF too much the effect could be larger than expected (hundreds of feet) or last longer than expected (measured in days). Maybe the effect of the spell will stick to creatures who were in the area while it lasted, and those creatures will suffer all the drawbacks of being in an AMF for hours or even days after the spell ends. Make a table of random effects for AMF, Disjunction, etc. to trigger, from making affected characters lose their remaining spells and magical abilities for the rest of the day to breaking magic items, etc. Each time they cast AMF in a given session, there should be a cumulative chance that one or more undesired effects will occur, with the number and severity of the effects directly proportionate to the number of times they use that spell.

eggs

2012-05-22, 12:58 AM

It sounds like a large part of the problem is encounters where the party can gang up on one strong opponent. I'd mix in encounters with more, weaker opponents, which would make the gang-up less of a clearcut victory (and might force the AMF onto party casters themselves if they're blitzed by the enemies that the Swiftblade doesn't engage).

Feralventas

2012-05-22, 01:13 AM

Use Initiators in place of spellcasters for your class-level villains and adversaries. Mage? Swordsage, using Supernatural effects to convince them that it's a mage. They get close and AMF? Trip, toss, 6d6 damage for their trouble as you send them tumbling into each other. Divine warrior? Crusader, hit 'em with weapon +8d6 on the target in front of them and another 5d6 to everyone else in 30ft.

There's also Contingent spells; setting things to go off once an AMF comes within 5ft of them; Dimension Door followed by a Wall of Iron and a Quickened Magic Missile to knock it over on them.

I also second Egg's idea of having multiple enemies, so that not all of them are vulnerable to AMF as a complete shut-down.

Elfinor

2012-05-22, 04:48 AM

Make it only affect active spellcasting? This also cuts down on the book-keeping work. You could also maybe give it an opposed caster level check (with a bonus) to cast, or something. Might need to reduce the spell level, though.

Have a look at this on the spot patch?
Nerfed Antimagic Field
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 10 ft.
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When you cast this spell, you interfere with the ability of spells and spell-like abilities to take form. Any creature (including yourself) within the area of the spell must make a caster level check against your caster level+15 every time it attempts to cast a spell, use a spell-like ability or activate a magic item (use the item's caster level in the last case). If this check fails, the spell is lost (an item's charges are used etc., as appropriate). If casting a spell with a casting time of longer than one round, the caster must make the caster level check at the beginning of each round or the spell is lost.

The casting/activation time for all spells, spell-like abilities and magic items in the area is also increased by one step (Swift/Move Action>Standard Action, Standard Action>Full Round Action, Full Round Action>1 round casting time) and no spell can be cast as an immediate action. Abilities with a casting time that doesn't fit into one of the above categories do not have a noticeable increase in casting time.

All spellcasters and users of innate spell-like abilities are aware of the spell and its effects when they are within its area. This spell does not affect ongoing magical effects. Artifacts are immune to this spell. You might want to consider also applying the caster level check to incoming spell effects, getting rid of the CL check altogether (100% casting failure) and/or getting rid of messing with the casting times. You could get a similar effect to a 'true' AMF with Chain Dispel.

CheeseMerchant

2012-05-22, 05:53 AM

This is based on the assumption that your group prefers encounter wherein they fight a single powerful enemy as opposed to a number of weaker foes.

Might I suggest taking a Monstrous Humanoid or Giant and adding some class levels to it? With the addition of 4 class levels to an otherwise powerful "monster" you can achieve some significant benefits. (Remember to account for the adjustment to CR from Class Levels)

Fighter 1 (Feat)
Fighter 2 (Dungeoncrasher AFC)
Barbarian 1 (Whirling Frenzy AFC, Spirit Lion Totem [Pounce] AFC)
Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem AFC)

Here are some feats that I would suggest taking a look at:

Knockdown
Knockback

Your monster (without recourse to magic) can pull off a very nice Charge attack. Their size, when coupled with a reach weapon, will open up some excellent battlefield control opportunities. Scoring a hit will almost always open up the free trip attack from knockdown. Improved Trip grants a follow up attack which, via Knockback, can become a Bull Rush to invoke the Dungeoncrasher AFC. Coupled with Pounce, decent BAB, and a large reach radius this build can give them somethings to worry about.

Now, if you choose an enemy with SLAs that [I]HURT when they land, then the knockback serves to give the monster room to use them. The party is faced with an interesting tactical option of wanting to close with the enemy to bring the AMF into play, but being wary of the melee capability presented by the monster.

If the creature doesn't have any SLAs that fit the bill, then you can add levels of Wiz/Sor (at 1 CL per 2 levels) in order to supply them.

nedz

2012-05-22, 05:56 AM

Design an encounter which starts by someone throwing an AMF at the party. Obviously the encounter has to work in an AMF.

Togo

2012-05-22, 10:38 AM

The problem is that the party have a way of grappling and doing damage in an antimagic field?

There are plenty of monsters that do the same. High level archers, or a high level master thrower, can do a great deal of damage without magic. There are plenty of monsters out there with big grapple checks, and also ones that, although grappleable, you really don't want to grapple, such as monks, oozes, and creatures with contact poison.

You also need to make a lot of use of non-magical attacks. Trying hitting the party with 5 advanced redcaps, giants with fighter and/or barbarian levels, advanced wyverns, and grappling monsters (just because one of them is good at grapple doesn't mean the PC your monster chooses to grapple can get away.)

Similarly you need to look at the limitations of the antimagic field itself. It's an emanation, which means it is blocked by solid objects. Simply hiding behind an upended table, around a corner, or even behind a tower sheild, will stop it from effecting you, allowing you to enjoy whatever magical effects you wish.

To be honest though, it sounds like your problem is grappling, which, yes, is extremely good at high level. Non-magical counters include some feats that allow you a free counter attack to stop the grapple occuring, or a high touch AC. If the minion is more than medium size, then consider using 5' corridors.

Also, try more than one bad guy. I know a single high CR is dramatic, but reducing his CR by 1 would allow you to deploy a large number of mooks to slow down the antimagic advance. Maybe some golems?

mucco

2012-05-22, 11:17 AM

*sigh*

As I said before, I'm not looking for enemies that can perform well into AMF. If they can, obviously the party won't use AMF in the first place. Throwing an AMF on them is cheap and difficult to do while avoiding a TPK because all three of them are casters and rely heavily on magic for survival. I'm also not looking for challenge ideas - I have plenty of those already! :D

I have to thank Elfinor, the only to actually answer my question, for the excellent proposal. AMF affecting only active spellcasting is a very interesting idea, I'll toy with it a bit and see if it makes the spell useless or not.

manyslayer

2012-05-22, 11:18 AM

There's the traditional metal hat with shrink object (the metal hat goes back to its big size, falling over the character and blocking line of effect).

Make the big bad guy martial adept (probably warblade) as most of their maneuvers are non-magical.

Use a decoy with a bunch of shrink item patches on their person (unknown to them). A bunch of big areas of water and a bunch of blocks of sodium with adamantine shards throughout.

And the ultimate, have someone use the tactic against them. Have a decoy to cause their grappler/AMF guys to charge. While they're there, have the bad guy grappler/AMf guy grapple the casters and mess up their day.

dropdadgbe

2012-05-22, 12:54 PM

What if you gave the AMF user an intelligent item (maybe with a curse so he can't take it off)? The item wouldn't work in an AMF so it wouldn't be very happy, and it'd give the user grief about it every time the AMF turned back off. Grief can range anywhere between nagging to actively trying to dominate the PC with its ego, depending on how offended the item is with the circumstances.

Over time, you could build character development between the item and the AMF user in which the item grudgingly agrees to tolerate AMFs when necessary and when used in moderation, so the player doesn't feel strongarmed into taking the option completely off the table.

Unrelated:

I would make a religious organization/cult which worships a god of magic take serious offense to the PCs' anti-magic activities. They diligently observe the state of magic in the setting and watch out for anything that may disrupt it, and the PCs have caught their eye. They could notice Prying Eyes or similar scrying effects, maybe in their favorite tavern they hear that someone was asking around about them. Maybe the cultists will warn them to stop, maybe if they cast AMF too much the effect could be larger than expected (hundreds of feet) or last longer than expected (measured in days). Maybe the effect of the spell will stick to creatures who were in the area while it lasted, and those creatures will suffer all the drawbacks of being in an AMF for hours or even days after the spell ends. Make a table of random effects for AMF, Disjunction, etc. to trigger, from making affected characters lose their remaining spells and magical abilities for the rest of the day to breaking magic items, etc. Each time they cast AMF in a given session, there should be a cumulative chance that one or more undesired effects will occur, with the number and severity of the effects directly proportionate to the number of times they use that spell.
This idea sounds really cool, and it has the benefit of tying in cool plot elements without just being a "the DM says so" nerf.

Slipperychicken

2012-05-22, 03:24 PM

mucco

2012-05-22, 04:39 PM

CheeseMerchant

2012-05-22, 06:37 PM

AMF Nerf: Anti-magic field doesn't suppress existing magical effects, or prevent spellcasting. Instead, AMF has the following affects:

1) Spellcasting takes 1 step longer to complete while in an AMF. (Swift action casts now need 1 standard action. 1 Standard action casts are now Full Round Action. Full Round becomes 1 Round. Immediate action spells take a Swift action.)

2) Magic items and persistent affects whose CL is less than the CL of the AMF become inactive on exposed to the AMF for 1d4 rounds. This is also the amount of time it takes for those items and/or affects to become active once they are no longer exposed to the AMF.

Korivan

2012-05-23, 01:44 AM

Simply make a caster that can still cast in AMF to throw at them. Seriously, they have feat for it for clerics of mystra. Just make one for a follower of shar, or whatever.

Elfinor

2012-05-23, 02:51 AM

Hooray, procrastinating paid off:smalltongue: Oh and if you use an AMF that only suppresses the casting of spells (and not ongoing effects), you should probably have the caster (and any creature that can share personal range spells with the caster, perhaps?) be subject to a targeted Greater Dispel Magic. That way it's less feasible to just throw on a huge number of buffs before casting the spell. It may cancel out ongoing negative spell effects too but it is meant to be an anti-caster weapon, after all.

Spuddles

2012-05-23, 12:59 PM

I don't want to :) I want the players to be powerful, but at the same time I don't want them to be able to break the game every time they have a bad situation. The problematic combo is taking the fear of TPK away from the game at the moment. That's why I want a nerf.

The real question is- why are you throwig single casting dependent enemies at a party with 3 PCs and a ton of minions?

docnessuno

2012-05-23, 01:07 PM

Another option to throw in the mix: Iron heart surge

candycorn

2012-05-23, 02:19 PM

mucco

2012-05-23, 02:55 PM

I'd also recommend tactical changes. If you hit the AMF melee guy with something that inhibits him right off, but is suppressed by AMF, you can possibly get him to activate it early. Basically, force the enemy to use those abilities defensively, rather than offensively.

From there, Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, and other instantaneous conjuration spells can provide obstacles for the newly AMF'd melee.

I cannot conceive a reason where he would want to be in antimagic himself. There is nothing that can inhibit him and is negated by AMF anymore than AMF itself negates him. Literally all of his defenses, barring his best one which is the (Ex) haste giving him concealment, are magical. In AMF, he loses 15 points of AC, 7 to 10 points to his saves, half of his HP (going down to about 90), all of his buffs and magic items, can't THF anymore. He loses as well the elementals' immunities, greater arcane sight, freedom of movement, evasion, stoneskin, greater mirror image, multiattack (he has some natural weapons). He can still fly but not hover anymore.

The only thing not giving him problems is walls of stone, really. He can just fly over them. AMF is nerfing him hard. But, it is a win button because then any enemy in it insta-dies to grapple or crystal shard. The last three encounters have all been solved using this tactic, and none of them involved a single enemy with two of three featuring strong environmental challenges as well. In the last encounter, there was a CR 19 dragon alongside the magic-dependent enemy. They obviously made sure the dragon went down first, and then AMF'ed their way out. The encounter before that, they were facing a summoner with tons of HP, two big summons, and a (Su)-based archer. And they couldn't breathe, or teleport away. The fight before that there were walls of greater dispel around, five equally strong enemies, dimension lock, and random dazes and bull rushes to avoid full attacks and to try to push the AMF away - please, I'm not a rookie DM anymore.

Last encounter, the magic user knew of the trick so it readied an action to knockback the AMFer away as soon as he got into range. The AMFer got into range as a move action, got pushed away and fell prone, stood up as a free action using Epic Tumble, used one of his two standard actions to get close again and then cast AMF. Then one of the Dread's minions came and grappled. This is how determined my players are. And let me repeat the trick of bull rushing the AMFed ally into melee with an enemy.

Allowing a feat that allows people to cast while in AMF resolves in suicide by two different ways: either I allow it for the players, in which case AMF will be up literally every encounter, or I don't and face their very justified complaints over the game being unfair and biased against them.

I know I can keep throwing silly challenges at them, that's not the point. The point is that AMF, at its current state in our current game, is broken. It is just too good. I want a nerf for that.

Gavinfoxx

2012-05-23, 03:27 PM

I would say present the players with the need to accomplish some objective in a known null magic zone. Say a dungeon made out of a rock that, when in this particular area, produces an emanation of a magic-suppressing effect not unlike the spell antimagic field or the power null psionics field. Let them know this ahead of time, and make sure you read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104.0

And let them research things to do which work in antimagic areas ahead of time. Get a bunch of alchemical items and poisons available to them. Make some Golems available for purchase or for construction. Let a sage give them a list of spells and powers that can be cast into an antimagic area from without, and let a bard tell them that there are areas in this dungeon that are not covered by the field, and they might sometimes be able to use that list of spells. Get them a bunch of that salve of healing from tome and blood. Let them Lesser Planar Bind or Lesser Planar Ally something relatively beefy. Point them towards blacksmiths which can upgrade their existing weapons and armor to the exotic high power nonmagical options available in various books. Be sure to read the handbooks on the best alchemical and posion options and such, and explicitly make those items available.

Then, run the dungeon for the prepared party. Include areas where the party baits enemies to the edge of the antimagic field so the wizard can orb them to death and such.

And after that, don't be afraid to use antimagic field on them -- not as a enemies which casts the spell like a wizard does, but via creatures which happen to be able to enable the ability once a day, perhaps, as a Specific Thing They Do. The party will know all the tricks of how to overcome it, and so won't be upset, and you get to use the power.

candycorn

2012-05-24, 01:00 AM

I cannot conceive a reason where he would want to be in antimagic himself. There is nothing that can inhibit him and is negated by AMF anymore than AMF itself negates him. Literally all of his defenses, barring his best one which is the (Ex) haste giving him concealment, are magical. In AMF, he loses 15 points of AC, 7 to 10 points to his saves, half of his HP (going down to about 90), all of his buffs and magic items, can't THF anymore. He loses as well the elementals' immunities, greater arcane sight, freedom of movement, evasion, stoneskin, greater mirror image, multiattack (he has some natural weapons). He can still fly but not hover anymore.Let's see.

First, to defend against swiftblade: Blindfight lets you reroll miss chance due to concealment. True Strike ignores miss chance from concealment.

Second: Hold Person (preceded by Greater Dispel Magic), Bestow Curse (50% chance to be unable to Act), Greater Bestow Curse (Reduce Strength to 1... How heavy is your armor again?), Greater Bestow Curse (75% chance to be unable to act), Blindness/Deafness, Feeblemind (command words require being able to speak intelligibly)

If you can't see, you can't effectively fight as melee. If you can't act, you can't effectively fight. If your armor and gear is more than double your carrying capacity, you can't even MOVE with it. Give the player the choice between being a combatant in an AMF, or a lawn ornament with buffs.

Seriously, if your players aren't wearing kid gloves, then don't you do it either.

The only thing not giving him problems is walls of stone, really. He can just fly over them. AMF is nerfing him hard. But, it is a win button because then any enemy in it insta-dies to grapple or crystal shard. The last three encounters have all been solved using this tactic, and none of them involved a single enemy with two of three featuring strong environmental challenges as well. In the last encounter, there was a CR 19 dragon alongside the magic-dependent enemy. They obviously made sure the dragon went down first, and then AMF'ed their way out.
Try this: Two wizards. One Illusions up a dragon 200 feet away (outside true seeing range. Ok, the party decides it needs to take on the dragon first. So they move to engage. That's when Rod quickened greater dispel / Save or Die, Rod quickened greater dispel / Save or Die hits.

As I said, if your players aren't wearing kid gloves, treat them like big boys. Believe me, I'm running a dragon based adventure with a swiftblade player now. It's not hard to shut one down.

The encounter before that, they were facing a summoner with tons of HP, two big summons, and a (Su)-based archer. And they couldn't breathe, or teleport away. The fight before that there were walls of greater dispel around, five equally strong enemies, dimension lock, and random dazes and bull rushes to avoid full attacks and to try to push the AMF away - please, I'm not a rookie DM anymore.
Saavy anti-AMF: Shrink item cone hat (blocks LoE when it enlarges in an AMF).

Saavy anti-AMF: Contingency dimension door when an AMF would be activated.

There are tricks, they're just not basic tricks any more. You're comfortable with magic. Try misdirection. Use reinforcements. For example: 1 wizard and a minion out there. the minion gets taken down, and AMF goes up. Then the second wizard enters the battlefield, dropping instantaneous conjuration spells.

Last encounter, the magic user knew of the trick so it readied an action to knockback the AMFer away as soon as he got into range. The AMFer got into range as a move action, got pushed away and fell prone, stood up as a free action using Epic Tumble, used one of his two standard actions to get close again and then cast AMF. Then one of the Dread's minions came and grappled. This is how determined my players are. And let me repeat the trick of bull rushing the AMFed ally into melee with an enemy.Then show similar determination.

The counters are out there. You just need the will to use rough tactics on the players. They obviously have the will to use them on you.

mucco

2012-05-24, 02:16 AM

candycorn

2012-05-24, 04:13 AM

I see you don't get my point (I'm asking for an AMF nerf specifically), but for the sake of the argument, I'll answer you.

Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Greater Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Feeblemind: all of these aside from Blindness will stop his ability to cast AMF as well - they will just stop him, period. If he is caught by a "% don't act" curse, he'll teleport away.

Illusions: the Dread has Lifesense. Shrink Item cone hat in general is useless cheese only good for making drama. Contingency does not arguably work with AMF triggers because Contingency shouldn't be able to interact with antimagic, being magic itself.

Also, the swiftblade is not too strong to challenge at all - I find him just fine. And I love his build. It's the specific trick of AMF+grapple/blast that breaks it.

Contingencies can work against anything. It's all in the wording. It's a triggered effect. Let's say, for example:

"dimension door if someone attempts to take an action which would render me incapable of casting".

As soon as someone starts speaking the command word, *POOF*.

As for nerfing AMF? To nerf it, there would need to be something wrong with it. There isn't. It's not ending encounters by itself. It is being used in conjunction with good tactics to generate combat success. That kind of thing should be encouraged, not nerfed.

In other words, you see a bug, I see a feature.

That said: Any villain who has his door kicked in, if he is worth his salt, will have up Dimension Locks. No Teleport.

Incidentally? The idea is to give the AMF melee a choice. Either activate AMF, or be rendered impotent. Totally, 100%, completely, impotent. That is an effect that is severe enough to be weighed against the loss of buffs and have a chance at coming out ahead. Players hate being out of the fight. You get the player to react emotionally, rather than sticking to the logical plan. That's how you break up a logical plan.

Cone Hat isn't extreme cheese. Extreme cheese is when a wizard has, in his belt pouch, 100 copper coins, that are actually PaO'd Tyrannosaurs (or other suitably beefy thing people would dislike fighting). Yes, I actually did this in a game. He scattered them around battlefields as a way to provide penalties to AMF and Dispel users. Works quite well, and is on par with the tactics your players are using.

But, if you really feel the need to punish your players, or you don't feel yourself up to countering this within the rules framework, without altering that framework, then, options:

1) Caster level check allows a cast in an AMF. Failure means spell is lost.
or
2) AMF is treated as a Dispel Magic effect that checks once per round, at 1d20+CL (no cap). Spells which are affected by this are suppressed as long as they remain in the field. Spells which are not affected function, though checks must be made each round.
or
3) AMF is dispellable (combine with (1) for better effect).
or
4) AMF only prevents spellcasting, but does not suppress existing spells that have already been cast.
or
5) AMF only suppresses spells with a duration other than Instantaneous, and does not prevent spellcasting.

These will either give a chance for spells to stay in effect or for the caster to cast while in the effect.

hewhosaysfish

2012-05-24, 06:11 AM

Pilo

2012-05-24, 09:33 AM

You miss something important regarding psionics:
From d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects) :

Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

So no psionic power in an anti-magic field.
So no Crystal Shard cast on the npc who is fighting the gish.

Turn/Rebuke undead is a Supernatural capacity, so it does not work in an antimagic field neither.

lord pringle

2012-05-24, 09:44 AM

mucco

2012-05-24, 09:50 AM

The idea is to give the AMF melee a choice. Either activate AMF, or be rendered impotent. Totally, 100%, completely, impotent.

Um, I hope you realize that this is the exact polar opposite of a choice. This is telling the guy that he has to use AMF in order to continue fighting. Incidentally, this is encouraging the tactic they've been employing so far. It is also punishing to my player, because I'm telling him to play naked or not to play at all. Right now, at least he has the choice of playing it "straight" or nullify both himself and an opponent.

PAO is banned in my campaign, because the PCs have access to it and if they used it, they'd use it to break the setting.

The cone hat is not extreme cheese, it's useless cheese. First, it involves Shrink Item, which is another of those spells I don't want to give to my players. They'd instantly be building cannons with it, or something. Second, a lead sheet won't stop my party - they'll just remove it, since it should still be their turn.

AMF per se is an ok spell. It's binary, sure, and that doesn't make it good gameplay in my opinion. But it's not nearly on the list of most broken things that have been used in the campaign. It's the combo I mentioned that is breaking the game, by itself.

Right now I'm talking with my players about Elfinor's idea that it suppresses all active spells and all casting. They seem to like it, so maybe we'll stick with that.

EDIT for the last answers: Crystal Shard is a SR: No instantaneous effect so it works within antimagic just like an Orb spell, and none of the (relevant) minions of the dread are controlled through Turn/Rebuke undead.

candycorn

2012-05-24, 09:54 AM

You miss something important regarding psionics:
From d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#combiningPsionicAndMagic alEffects) :

So no psionic power in an anti-magic field.
So no Crystal Shard cast on the npc who is fighting the gish.

Turn/Rebuke undead is a Supernatural capacity, so it does not work in an antimagic field neither.

Creation powers with instantaneous durations and calling powers are not affected by a null psionics field because the power itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.

I would say that the Metacreativity (Creation) powers have a rather strong argument for being fine in an AMF, no matter if transparency is being used. They're worded identically to Conjuration (Creation) spell effects, which are allowed, and the psionic equivalent allows them.

JoeYounger

2012-05-24, 09:59 AM

So no psionic power in an anti-magic field.
So no Crystal Shard cast on the npc who is fighting the gish.

AMF doesnt create a dead magic area, so psionics are unaffected by it.

That being said, Crystal Shard is an instantanious conjuration effect. It should also not be affected by an AMF.

EDIT: Swordsaged. Damn that phone call for keeping me from typing faster!

candycorn

2012-05-24, 10:14 AM

Um, I hope you realize that this is the exact polar opposite of a choice. This is telling the guy that he has to use AMF in order to continue fighting. Incidentally, this is encouraging the tactic they've been employing so far. It is also punishing to my player, because I'm telling him to play naked or not to play at all. Right now, at least he has the choice of playing it "straight" or nullify both himself and an opponent.Incorrect. It's not punishing the player. It's encouraging the player to continue adapting tactics. Now the party must either (a) invest resources in protecting their AMF melee until he's in position to win the fight, or (b) adapt a new strategy which is not dependent on the combo you're complaining about.

Either way is a win. You don't do it every fight, but letting them know that there are fights where a savvy opponent will give them a hard choice will keep them thinking.

Incidentally, he's not having the choice you think. As you should know, nullifying 1:1 is usually in the party's favor, since they generally outnumber, especially when other party members are chomping at the bit to take advantage of that.

Either it's fair and balanced (in which case, you should have no problem with it), or it's not fair and balanced (in which case, you should remove the option, or make the players feel the option has an element of risk that makes them hesitant to grow complacent with the same tactic over and over and over). Which is it?

Because right now, you're starting off by telling us that the choice he's making is wrecking your DM world, and then you follow up by refusing to take the kid gloves off. Putting a Caster in an AMF and grappling is pretty much the same thing as rendering a creature unable to act, or paralyzed with low Strength. You're bemoaning the players when they handle your minions that roughly, but you're not treating them in kind. If they're fine with rough handling, then handle them roughly. If, afterward, they complain, tell them that both sides need to have access to the same level of play. If they are going to neuter every caster they see with AMF/Grapple, they have to be prepared to be neutered by these super-intelligent casters in kind. If they wish to step things down a notch, you can too.

They are playing an arms race, but you're refusing to pick up anything but spitwads. If what they are doing trivializes encounters at the level you're playing them, then play them more effectively.

PAO is banned in my campaign, because the PCs have access to it and if they used it, they'd use it to break the setting.It's easy enough to replicate other effects. Force Cage pillars holding up the ceiling. Dispel or AMF brings down the room. Environmental hazards that make it extremely hazardous to be without protections. These are all options that you refuse to use, because you won't take away a player option, even though that is exactly what they are doing to you.

Let them reap what they sow.

The cone hat is not extreme cheese, it's useless cheese. First, it involves Shrink Item, which is another of those spells I don't want to give to my players. They'd instantly be building cannons with it, or something. Second, a lead sheet won't stop my party - they'll just remove it, since it should still be their turn.Not really. You have a contingency to teleport if the hat is ever enlarged. They remove it, and poof, nothing there.

AMF per se is an ok spell. It's binary, sure, and that doesn't make it good gameplay in my opinion. But it's not nearly on the list of most broken things that have been used in the campaign. It's the combo I mentioned that is breaking the game, by itself.Because you're letting them escalate to a level you won't go. Either tell them to back down from that level, or bloody well go there yourself.

You're stopping the tactic, without addressing the behavior. If you have to take away all the player's toys, else they abuse them until you're not having fun, then talk to your players. Altering and removing and nerfing means you're always going to be altering, removing, or nerfing. Getting the players to alter their attitude (or you altering yours towards coddling the players) will, however, resolve all the issues you have.

The players cannot win an arms race with the DM. If they are, it is solely because you are letting them. Use tactics to nullify PC's as well, and you'll see a lot less problems. Or get Players to stop using nullify tactics on your minions. But make sure everyone's using the same playbook, and make sure everyone's cool with the book being used.

Krohm

2012-05-24, 11:09 AM

Have you tried counterspells ?

When my players tend to rely on a specific game breaking spell combo, I just add one or two masters of counterspell to every encounter, with their favorite spells memorized, imporved counterspell and a few dispel magic to be sure.

Make sure the opponents can ready the counterspells and are not cougth during the surprise round (a bell behind a door is often enougth).

As a general rule I try to deseign the challenging encounters in a way the PCs are less numerous than the opponents, unless, of course, they are fighting dragons, krakens or the likes. Use large rooms to allow multiple lines of ennemies, including archers and long range spellcasters. Force your PCs to run away once or twice. This will probably add interest to the fights.

There are minons ? use low challenges encounters and traps to reduce their numbers, as well as AOE spells and effects.

EDIT :
Ha. And do not hesitate to have archers focusing on spell casters wile the mages are counterspelling them. They usually dont like this much, and will learn to use a few defensive spells instead of trying to break the game.

TuggyNE

2012-05-24, 07:05 PM

Force Cage pillars holding up the ceiling. Dispel or AMF brings down the room.

Pretty sure forcecage resists dispel magic and antimagic field exactly the same way wall of force does, so this doesn't work.

(We now return to your regularly scheduled high-op players vs. DM discussion, already in progress....)

mucco

2012-05-24, 07:39 PM

The players cannot win an arms race with the DM. If they are, it is solely because you are letting them. Use tactics to nullify PC's as well, and you'll see a lot less problems.

See, candycorn, I think you've got a bit of a "players vs. DM" attitude and this quote showcases it. I don't have to treat them roughly if they play well. I have to treat every character fairly.

This is the reason I'm not asking for direct counters. Counters are just ways to escalate the arms race you're mentioning. They'll find counters to my counters and so on. Surely I can win it, but it's bad for the game.

If a trick requires specific counters just to be stopped, as this thread excellently shows, it is too strong. It is, if I'm not mistaken, the very definition of a Tier 0 build - something that can only be beaten by those who prepare to counter it. AMF is fine, you can walk out of it usually and if you can't, it is probably your fault. Grappling is on the same boat - there are many ways to be immune to it, or to win it. But ending up into antimagic and getting blasted for 150-200 damage between one turn and the other, well, if you didn't build exactly for that there are no chances you will survive. This is overpowered for a T2 game, and I can't understand how you fail to understand it.

Your suggestions either point toward direct counters, which do nothing but patch one session and trigger the arms race I want to avoid, or treating the PCs roughly which is definitely going to make players bitter at one point or the other. All because they have this one OP trick that I can't counter credibly and in a general way - I have to build for it. Nope, these are not good suggestions, I'm afraid.

Also, it is worth mentioning one more time that I have a great relationship with my players, we love theorycrafting about our game, we all agree AMF is the one OP trick currently in the game, and also that I'm having no problems whatsoever building encounters for them. The last ones were good fun for everyone, and they were just challenging enough - more than one PC risked death and got saved be few HP (or miscalculations :p). The game is going great, and I will have no problems throwing an AMF counter at them every now and then. I just don't want to have to do it.

Togo

2012-05-24, 07:47 PM

Pretty sure forcecage resists dispel magic and antimagic field exactly the same way wall of force does, so this doesn't work.

(We now return to your regularly scheduled high-op players vs. DM discussion, already in progress....)

Sure, but neither does trying to treat contingency as some kind of super-powerful divination spell, by specifying triggers that amount to predicting outcomes that haven't occured yet.

The tinfoil hat doesn't work either for a host of reasons, not least that the trick relies on the hat being precisely aligned, and doesn't block AMF until it stops being worn gear.

That said, I've got to agree with candycorn. The players are using tactics that nerf your villains, and you want to keep the challenge up without nerfing the players or their tactic. AMF is digital, so you're looking for a way to allow the tactic while making it less effective. In other words, make it less digital, win/lose, and more something that gives them a solid but not overwhelming advantage. But all the team's tactics are like that. Grapple is digital win/lose, a vastly powerful direct damage attack is win/lose. High level combat is increasingly win/lose. Trying to force everything into a mould whereby threats are always incremental is going to involve changing more than one spell. It's going to involve threatening the party with your own win/lose digital tactics, and letting them think their way out the hole that puts them in. I can see what you're trying to do (I think), but it's a stopgap measure, and if they don't get your encounters with AMF, they'll increasingly be using something else instead.

Suddo

2012-05-24, 08:16 PM

If a trick requires specific counters just to be stopped, as this thread excellently shows, it is too strong. It is, if I'm not mistaken, the very definition of a Tier 0 build - something that can only be beaten by those who prepare to counter it. AMF is fine, you can walk out of it usually and if you can't, it is probably your fault. Grappling is on the same boat - there are many ways to be immune to it, or to win it. But ending up into antimagic and getting blasted for 150-200 damage between one turn and the other, well, if you didn't build exactly for that there are no chances you will survive. This is overpowered for a T2 game, and I can't understand how you fail to understand it.

It should be pointed out that you might have a slightly misunderstood view of how the Tier System works. The party wins to a large majority of combats via a single strategy, from what I can tell to recap its Antimagic field followed by the Dread Necro sending in his hulking zombies to kill, this does not result in Tier 0, or even Tier 1, it results in Tier 2 which is exactly what you intended the game to be. Tier 2 characters are often one trick ponies they can do one thing really well but if they are in another situation then they are screwed where their Tier 1 counter-parts can easily adapt to a new situation and continue to be awesome.

Back to solutions to the problem.
Though I definitely don't agree with an arms race with the players, because this causes a bad DM and PC relationship, I do think that challenging them is important and that the enemies they face should be adapting to them. You're PCs are high level 17 this means that problems such as rocket tag, where who ever wins initiative wins the combat, happen and is also why people tend to stop play these type of games. I assume your PCs are supposed to have existed for a while and have a decent background, this means that if an enemy plans on facing them they should have defenses against them. This is why I think some Wizards/Sorcs with Counterspelling Tactics is a completely valid things to bring to the table. You want to create an anti-magic field nope you opponent has adapted. This isn't an arms race due to the fact you have taken the defensive stance, you have not created a bigger gun you have simply said one trick is not enough.
My other point is one that is more general and I hope it doesn't ramble too much. When your PCs get high enough they are essentially people that could assume the throne of almost any kingdom or simply destroy the kingdoms themselves. This should not be taken lightly by anyone, including any allied nations, the PCs are a huge threat so we need to train people to fight them or we need to flat out eliminate them. If the PCs are being cool and nice then this may not be a problem due to the fact that they will have a nation they are backing and will gather people to that group and it will help them deal with the brunt of the problems. But if your PCs are being *******s to everyone, and their dog, they should expect repercussions this may cause an arms race but it should also reinforce they aren't gods in this universe and that they should be *******s to everyone and their dog. This can come in the way of assassin and other fun quick you have a threat on you.

TL;DR: The problem may not be able to be solved in any of the encounter styles you have thrown at the players currently without just causing an arms race. But rather you have to cause the players to deal with more types of scenarios.

DeAnno

2012-05-24, 09:07 PM

Consider using medium or long range artillery that ignores AMF once it enters, such as Bow builds or Orbs of Force. With ambush tactics this forces a party onto the defensive.

mucco

2012-05-24, 09:09 PM

It should be pointed out that you might have a slightly misunderstood view of how the Tier System works. The party wins to a large majority of combats via a single strategy, from what I can tell to recap its Antimagic field followed by the Dread Necro sending in his hulking zombies to kill, this does not result in Tier 0, or even Tier 1, it results in Tier 2 which is exactly what you intended the game to be. Tier 2 characters are often one trick ponies they can do one thing really well but if they are in another situation then they are screwed where their Tier 1 counter-parts can easily adapt to a new situation and continue to be awesome.

Well, now let me see if my ideas of tier are wrong.

T2: extremely powerful, but somewhat limited in versatility. One T2 strategy is capable of winning encounters. Examples: Arcane Spellsurge + Arcane Fusion, Binder summons, Psion blasts.
T1: as powerful as T2, though very versatile as well: a Wizard can deal 200+ damage in melee and still be a divinator and a dispeller without a problem.
T0: this type of build cannot be stopped, unless someone builds against it specifically. Example: ultra-paranoid demiplane-creating high-level wizard with astral projection.

Now, is the strategy of AMF+grapple/damage overload in one round T2, or T0? It can't be T1, as it's a single strategy. Since it's a combat strategy, let's see what the various enemies can do about it.

Let's start with the T3s. Casters: dead. No chance, no save, 150 damage by Crystal Shard on a touch attack against antimagic touch AC of a caster... 10? 15? Yes, dead. Let's see how ToB fares against it: dead. Good luck getting out a grapple roll of 60 without your +6 Str item and your maneuvers too, if you're a swordsage.

Well let's see T1s, which are almost universally prepared in most cases. Druids and Clerics can do zero in AMF unless they're built for it. Wizards, the same. They have to build for it in order to be a challenge. And I've made my share of casters and none had the ability to avoid AMFs - all with the rule that AMF > Contingency, which seems to me the general ruling on the internet.

Let's go over to monsters. Outsiders are pretty much done for within AMF, with their comparably pitiful attacks and grapple checks. Most of the high level monster abilities are at least Su even on other creature types, like undead. Hulking monsters are another cup of tea. They can hold their own into antimagic. But then, antimagic will never get cast! So they are not applicable for the purpose of this analysis.

Basically, the trick in question is not, like the usual T2 tricks of our optimization level: something very strong, that can win you an encounter in the right conditions, but that generally doesn't. It is something that wins you the encounter unless some very specific things happen. Which return to the definition of T0: it wins, unless someone has built against it.

Also, the grapple follow-up is the "safe" one, in case there is some time. If there is a time problem, the party will have the Psion do a full Crystal Shard routine (Overchannel Twin, Schism Overchannel Twin, Quicken Overchannel) that can shoot over 250 damage with some luck. What NPC in AMF can resist it? And there is no not-cheesy, not-prepared way to avoid it.

Making my setting build after my PCs is bad DMing, because they've taken measures to not be hated through the whole campaign. They now control a small kingdom they intend to develop with the consent of the major bordering nations.

Togo: you have a point. But I'm fairly happy to say that so far, there haven't been a whole lot of win/lose powers in the hands of the players. They can all be stopped quite casually by a good opponent. Take grapple. It only takes 40k of WBL to stop it. Surely it's strong and it has its uses, but it's not a win/lose. It's a "win every now and then"/"meh, whatever". That's totally cool. My combat length average is over 5 rounds and I consider that a (small) accomplishment.

Also, I try to pin my enemies' HP around 300, which is slightly more than a full round's worth of attacks by the melee or the Dread, and slightly less than an uncontested Psion's routine. The Psion is often countered effectively at least in part, so that works out great. There are really few abilities that are rocket tag in my game. And then the AMF+kill trick pops up, and that's not even rocket tag. It's a straight win button.

Thomasinx

2012-05-24, 10:17 PM

Well, now let me see if my ideas of tier are wrong.

T2: extremely powerful, but somewhat limited in versatility. One T2 strategy is capable of winning encounters. Examples: Arcane Spellsurge + Arcane Fusion, Binder summons, Psion blasts.
T1: as powerful as T2, though very versatile as well: a Wizard can deal 200+ damage in melee and still be a divinator and a dispeller without a problem.
T0: this type of build cannot be stopped, unless someone builds against it specifically. Example: ultra-paranoid demiplane-creating high-level wizard with astral projection.

Now, is the strategy of AMF+grapple/damage overload in one round T2, or T0? It can't be T1, as it's a single strategy. Since it's a combat strategy, let's see what the various enemies can do about it.

I don't see how you can honestly put an AMF+grapple/Damage in the same boat as a high level wizard on another demiplane using astral projection.

AMF isn't even that powerful of a tactic.

Limiting factors:
Range: AMF(from the 8th level spell, which is what I'm assuming they're using) has a fixed radius of 10 feet. If he can't get within 10 feet of the caster, he's boned.

Ways to stop this:
Grapple him. (He won't have a very high grapple check, have a minion go keep him in one spot.)
Go underwater. (Good luck breathing without magic...)
Fly.
Transmute Rock to Mud (On the roof, since its outside the reach of AMF. Plus it buries him for the fun of it)
Have two casters and have them stand twenty feet apart!. (I guess he's gotta pick one?)

Do I need to list more? It's remarkably easy to come up with these.

You're fighting players at level 17, so you can't treat combat the same way you'd treat combat at level 14 and below. Battlefield control is everything. It seems like you're letting your players do all the battlefield control, and that's going to be a guaranteed win for them.

Plus, most fights are going to initiate from a distance. How on earth does their Gish get within 10 feet of your caster? There's all sorts of spells to prevent this. (Unless they're willing to spend a wish just to move him across the field)

Examples:
Wall of Force
Dimension Lock
Divert Teleport
Anticipate Teleportation (Delays arrival by 1 round. Whoops, so much for dimension door!) Even more fun with Greater Anticipate Teleport..
Forcecage. (Really fun on a person popping out after a teleport delay. They gotta teleport again to get out!)
Maze

Most importantly, These are all common spells that any caster should be using anyways. The anticipate spells last 24 hours, and are level 4. No 17th level caster would go without. Forcecage and Maze are excellent utility spells. (Maze especially)

I get that the player is a swiftblade, but even then, unless your caster is brain-dead, he shouldn't stand within two move actions of anyone with a sword. Especially when a ton of fun spells have range 400+ feet.

A stupid caster shows up in person at close range. A smart caster flies invisible in the air in a force cage with random walls of force blocking opponents. He then uses an illusion to laugh at the opponent while summoning whatever monstrosities for the players to fight while they try to find him. And when they do find him, he teleports to another force cage farther away, and repeats until he gets bored.

Now, another point I want to state:
There is no such thing as an arms race between players and their DM.

Why? Because the DM has all the keys and all the locks, and has the final say in everything. It's not an arms race. You don't want to beat the players, you just have to match the level of tactics.

It is the DM's responsibility to play at the same level as the players.
They've found a stick that works pretty well. It's not a stick that beats everything, or even most things. However, it's beating things you throw at them with kiddie gloves. Bump up the difficulty a little bit and see how things work. Play that genius wizard like the genius he is, and see what happens.

candycorn

2012-05-25, 01:04 AM

See, candycorn, I think you've got a bit of a "players vs. DM" attitude and this quote showcases it. I don't have to treat them roughly if they play well. I have to treat every character fairly.
Ummm... You're taking me out of context. See below.
You're stopping the tactic, without addressing the behavior. If you have to take away all the player's toys, else they abuse them until you're not having fun, then talk to your players. Altering and removing and nerfing means you're always going to be altering, removing, or nerfing. Getting the players to alter their attitude (or you altering yours towards coddling the players) will, however, resolve all the issues you have.

This is the reason I'm not asking for direct counters. Counters are just ways to escalate the arms race you're mentioning. They'll find counters to my counters and so on. Surely I can win it, but it's bad for the game.You're so intent on not being adversarial that you're forgetting that it's your job to be the adversaries. If you deny yourself common sense tactics that your players are using, you're not approaching the encounter fairly. You are coddling the players. If you're cool with them doing a tactic, then allow yourself the same. That is the very definition of fair.

If you nerf the rules, without addressing the behavior, you are treating the symptom, without addressing the disease. Say you nerf this. And PAO. And Polymorph. And Shrink item.

The problem in all cases isn't that these abilities are abusable. It's that you cannot trust your players not to abuse rules that are abusable.

I promise you... PROMISE you... That if you address that, and get your players to stop trying to find exploits, you'll need to make a lot less nerfs. This has the ADDED benefit of stopping the arms race.

But burying your head in the sand while players use save or dies, thinking it's fair for players to get them, but not monsters, that's crazy talk. Either get both sides using that level of play, or get neither side using them. The latter is preferable, but you need either constant nerfbanning, or a mature discussion with your players. I prefer the latter to the former.

If a trick requires specific counters just to be stopped, as this thread excellently shows, it is too strong. It is, if I'm not mistaken, the very definition of a Tier 0 build - something that can only be beaten by those who prepare to counter it. AMF is fine, you can walk out of it usually and if you can't, it is probably your fault. Grappling is on the same boat - there are many ways to be immune to it, or to win it. But ending up into antimagic and getting blasted for 150-200 damage between one turn and the other, well, if you didn't build exactly for that there are no chances you will survive.AMF is one of the deadliest threats to a wizard. As such, I'd say any super genius (which most wizards are) would have likely devoted a bit of thought to what would happen.

This is NOT a Tier 0 build. I could show you several. This isn't. Quickened True Strike + Maximized Empowered twin spell orb of Force would likely deal with the problem from 250 feet out. That's not a specific counter. It's just the will and ability to hurt the opponent. And it effectively works.

The only way it's Tier 0 is if you remove any option which is deadly to PC's. At this level, death should be a speedbump. If players are fighting CR 19 enemies in twos and threes and more, then they should darn well have access to Revivify, True Resurrection, and the like. Don't be afraid to whip out deadly abilities. The PC is, by definition, tough. Especially at this character level. Without the will to actually fight them, you'll always have them steamrolling your encounters.

This is overpowered for a T2 game, and I can't understand how you fail to understand it.Because it's not.

Tier 0: DMM Persist Favor of the Martyr + DMM Persist Shapechange (form that has regeneration) + Immunity to the bypassing damage types (say energy immunity to fire and acid) = Immune to damage. Add on mind blank, and celerity and death ward. Make it a psychic theurge, and add in psionic action economy boosts. THAT is tier 0.

Your suggestions either point toward direct counters, which do nothing but patch one session and trigger the arms race I want to avoid, or treating the PCs roughly which is definitely going to make players bitter at one point or the other.And yours don't resolve the arms race... They just get the players looking for the next gun. The only ways to stop an arms race are as follows:
1) Talk to them, and convince them it's for the best.
2) Handle them more roughly, until they realize that it's futile to Arms Race a DM.

The former is preferable. The latter is sometimes needed. Bans and nerfs? Are useless in stopping this. So don't act like you're fixing the problem. You're just redirecting it elsewhere.

All because they have this one OP trick that I can't counter credibly and in a general way - I have to build for it. Nope, these are not good suggestions, I'm afraid.Then I am sorry. If you are unwilling to let players die, then the players will never fear death. The occasional gem for true resurrection is factored into WBL gain. Don't be afraid to make them pay a bit every now and again.

Also, it is worth mentioning one more time that I have a great relationship with my players, we love theorycrafting about our game, we all agree AMF is the one OP trick currently in the game, and also that I'm having no problems whatsoever building encounters for them.If you all agree this is overpowered, and that it damages the game, and yet it continues, I submit that your player relationship isn't as great as you think.

TALK. TO. YOUR. PLAYERS.

Get them to agree that OP tricks that damage the game shouldn't be abused.

THAT WILL SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.

Does that sound "adversarial"? Is it "DM vs players"? Cause I guarantee you, at this moment, your players are adopting a "players vs DM" mentality. If you don't deal with that mentality, there will be another broken trick, just as soon as your players find it.

The last ones were good fun for everyone, and they were just challenging enough - more than one PC risked death and got saved be few HP (or miscalculations :p). If they're level 20, and they're only "risking" death, without ever experiencing it, then they are not risking death. Because you coddle them. Believe me. At this level, any party should have the following:

1) Means to resurrect party members
2) backup means to resurrect, in case the primary means is killed.
3) plan for getting out of dodge when things go south.

Let your players understand that death, whether it's the NPC's or the PC's, isn't a bad thing. That's right. It's a great opportunity for plot development. And at this level, it's not for keeps. Save or dies aren't game changing after death is just, "get out, recover, come back tomorrow and try again". So don't be afraid of using them.

The game is going great, and I will have no problems throwing an AMF counter at them every now and then. I just don't want to have to do it.
And you don't. There are a dozen ways to counter the tactic, that all rely on standard intelligently played genius level casters, or incredibly tough creatures that are dangerous to grapple.

If you can't counter this with a garden variety high level wizard, that doesn't mean it can't be done. Just that you can't (or won't) do it.

Calanon

2012-05-25, 01:16 AM

candycorn

2012-05-25, 01:21 AM

Consider having them encounter a Dragon... Oh look at that! in an Anti-magic field they stop being a great and powerful wizard and are then reduced to the status of pointy eared monkey! While the Dragon? Oh she still remains a powerful dragon :smallamused:

In an AMF, dragons lose their buffs, which makes things difficult. For example, suddenly those Orb spells get much more accurate, from the casters outside the AMF. The dragon's DR goes away as well.

That's a fine strategy for dragon vs wizard. It's not so good for dragon vs party. The other 3 party members can still hurt it badly.

Exception: Give a dragon rapidstrike, improved rapidstrike, multiattack, improved multiattack, and a bunch of other really nasty feats for melee, combine it with the blinding breath spell, and heighten breath metabreath feat, and you can have a bunch of blind partymembers, and if they get you in an AMF, you can shred anything in it quickly, then use a swift action ability to get out (dragons at that size are 15 feet, which means part of them is probably out of the AMF, allowing the use of spells and other such things).

Krohm

2012-05-25, 02:46 AM

Basically, the trick in question is not, like the usual T2 tricks of our optimization level: something very strong, that can win you an encounter in the right conditions, but that generally doesn't. It is something that wins you the encounter unless some very specific things happen. Which return to the definition of T0: it wins, unless someone has built against it.

The actions you are describing are clearly only efficient in some limited cases : When the party is outnumbering a normal size creature that relies mainly on magic.

It cease to be usefull a soon as one of these conditions is not true. So yes, if a powerfull spellcaster is stupid enougth to let himself in such condition, he will die.

Honestly, if you're having trouble with your spellcasters power, just add the Improved Counterspells to your NPCs. It is not a "specific answer" (dont tell me having a spell turning memorized is a specific answer to AMF) , and it is part of the magic balance : Spellcaster cannot win when outnumbered, regardless of their spells.

If your party is too strong for your encounters, you might consider adding a "handicap" to your encounters challange rating.

Airanath

2012-05-25, 06:43 AM

May I sugezt a dragon of the great game? They trade of spellcasting for a nice set of abilities. Since they are usually plotters and schemers, the dragon may well be the bbeg behind the scenes, moving the pieces so the pcs take off the minions of its competitors and accumulate treasure, that it plans.to finally add to his hoard now.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-05-25, 07:01 AM

It looks to me like he's in the following situation:
1. The PCs are strong spellcasters.
2. He's trying to challenge the PCs by using spellcaster opponents.
3. The PCs use AMF plus powerful grappling undead to neutralize spellcaster opponents. Add on instantaneous conjurations from outside the AMF to kill stuff.
4. AMF only gets used when it would be to the PCs' advantage, it's not getting used constantly and it puts the PC casting it at a decided disadvantage.
4a. He doesn't want to kill the PC for casting AMF.

First, be sure you're using the rules for firing into a grapple, as Crystal Shard has to make a ranged touch attack. "If you make a ranged attack against a grappler while not engaged in the grapple, you roll randomly to see which grappler your attack strikes." Be sure you're not making it a 50/50 chance to hit either if it's a large undead grappling a medium opponent, it should have a higher chance of hitting the bigger combatant.

Flying opponents would probably have the best chance of avoiding the AMF outright. He can't really cast Fly or Alter Self or similar and also have AMF on, unless he uses Extraordinary Spell Aim or other shenanigans. Opponents with extraordinary flight would also probably be able to avoid the undead grapplers. The PCs are probably packing nets and tanglefoot bags for just such an occasion, but Freedom of Movement can negate those before they're brought into AMF range.

A few weak mooks with Tanglefoot Bags for the big undead should be enough to keep it from grabbing their boss. Maybe give them Darkstalker (LoM) and Potions of Invisibility + Camouflage + Chameleon for +40 Hide to avoid Lifesense until they can throw them. You could even change it up by throwing in a caster who's specifically good at grappling, such as a Goliath Tashalatora Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior with Improved Grapple, Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs) and Deepspawn (LoM), and when not in AMF uses Expansion and Grip of Iron. He should also have Martial Study and Martial Stance for Crushing Weight of the Mountain. That can grab any beefy undead before they can get at the boss opponent.

mucco

2012-05-25, 08:32 AM

You're so intent on not being adversarial that you're forgetting that it's your job to be the adversaries. If you deny yourself common sense tactics that your players are using, you're not approaching the encounter fairly. You are coddling the players. If you're cool with them doing a tactic, then allow yourself the same. That is the very definition of fair.

If you nerf the rules, without addressing the behavior, you are treating the symptom, without addressing the disease. Say you nerf this. And PAO. And Polymorph. And Shrink item.

The problem in all cases isn't that these abilities are abusable. It's that you cannot trust your players not to abuse rules that are abusable.

In our group, it is ok to try to find the best tricks possible and use them. If something is abusable, it is ok to abuse it. If it breaks the game, it is removed or changed. That is how we play, and how I DM. I want my players to be able to push their characters to the limits I allow them, because they like it. This is not about trust at all. That said, I disagree with pretty much everything you said, as I already stated in my last post, so let's agree to disagree. :smallsmile:

It looks to me like he's in the following situation:
1. The PCs are strong spellcasters.
2. He's trying to challenge the PCs by using spellcaster opponents.
3. The PCs use AMF plus powerful grappling undead to neutralize spellcaster opponents. Add on instantaneous conjurations from outside the AMF to kill stuff.
4. AMF only gets used when it would be to the PCs' advantage, it's not getting used constantly and it puts the PC casting it at a decided disadvantage.
4a. He doesn't want to kill the PC for casting AMF.

First, be sure you're using the rules for firing into a grapple, as Crystal Shard has to make a ranged touch attack. "If you make a ranged attack against a grappler while not engaged in the grapple, you roll randomly to see which grappler your attack strikes." Be sure you're not making it a 50/50 chance to hit either if it's a large undead grappling a medium opponent, it should have a higher chance of hitting the bigger combatant.

Flying opponents would probably have the best chance of avoiding the AMF outright. He can't really cast Fly or Alter Self or similar and also have AMF on, unless he uses Extraordinary Spell Aim or other shenanigans. Opponents with extraordinary flight would also probably be able to avoid the undead grapplers. The PCs are probably packing nets and tanglefoot bags for just such an occasion, but Freedom of Movement can negate those before they're brought into AMF range.

A few weak mooks with Tanglefoot Bags for the big undead should be enough to keep it from grabbing their boss. Maybe give them Darkstalker (LoM) and Potions of Invisibility + Camouflage + Chameleon for +40 Hide to avoid Lifesense until they can throw them. You could even change it up by throwing in a caster who's specifically good at grappling, such as a Goliath Tashalatora Monk 2/ Psychic Warrior with Improved Grapple, Aberration Blood (Flexible Limbs) and Deepspawn (LoM), and when not in AMF uses Expansion and Grip of Iron. He should also have Martial Study and Martial Stance for Crushing Weight of the Mountain. That can grab any beefy undead before they can get at the boss opponent.

They pay attention to either grapple or damage, never both.

The AMF melee flies thanks to a graft, which is mundane and thus not affected by AMF. The minions are capable of fast flight, as they are zombie dragons. The DC of tanglefoot bags is low enough that a 2 will succeed even in AMF, and the PCs have no such things. They usually just deal the enemies some hundreds of damage. Lifesense fools any Hide check, or any other kind of ability. I created a specific feat just to counter it, though it is a very specific feat that few people have. A tashalatora will not be fighting the dragons, but a psion dealing 500 damage per round. Damp Power will only go so far, I assure you.

You are underestimating the power of a high-level, high-tier party. How many of you actually have experience with this situation?

Krohm

2012-05-25, 10:42 AM

TypoNinja

2012-05-25, 10:48 AM

In our group, it is ok to try to find the best tricks possible and use them. If something is abusable, it is ok to abuse it. If it breaks the game, it is removed or changed. That is how we play, and how I DM. I want my players to be able to push their characters to the limits I allow them, because they like it. This is not about trust at all. That said, I disagree with pretty much everything you said, as I already stated in my last post, so let's agree to disagree. :smallsmile:

They pay attention to either grapple or damage, never both.

The AMF melee flies thanks to a graft, which is mundane and thus not affected by AMF. The minions are capable of fast flight, as they are zombie dragons. The DC of tanglefoot bags is low enough that a 2 will succeed even in AMF, and the PCs have no such things. They usually just deal the enemies some hundreds of damage. Lifesense fools any Hide check, or any other kind of ability. I created a specific feat just to counter it, though it is a very specific feat that few people have. A tashalatora will not be fighting the dragons, but a psion dealing 500 damage per round. Damp Power will only go so far, I assure you.

You are underestimating the power of a high-level, high-tier party. How many of you actually have experience with this situation?

I don't have any experience with anything on the order of that kind of damage, but I do have some thoughts.

How many fights is your party engaged in per day? You aren't letting them get away with being narcoleptic are you?

What's stopping a cleric with the sun domain from turning the undead army into dust? I know its a fairly uncommon option on these boards, but a cleric who specializes in turning undead can get some fairly disgusting checks.

Churches that hate the ever(un)living **** out of undead are pretty common, they'd hate your party on principle no matter who else they sucked up to, and have members who are expected to excel at making undead poof.

Proximity appears to be the biggest issue. Anything that keeps the AMF at least 10 feet back negates it, and well, that's pretty common, anything with Large and in Charge and a reach of 15 feet or more should mix things up nicely.

Try thinking of it as a mobility/control issue rather than an AMF issue. Or use the AMF against the user. Large net's secured to the ceiling magically AMF goes up, net's come down, over the AMF only. Things of this nature. AMF is pretty much the bane of casters so it's not unreasonable to assume that a caster would invest decent amounts of wealth and time into a counter to it.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-05-25, 01:55 PM

They pay attention to either grapple or damage, never both.

The AMF melee flies thanks to a graft, which is mundane and thus not affected by AMF. The minions are capable of fast flight, as they are zombie dragons. The DC of tanglefoot bags is low enough that a 2 will succeed even in AMF, and the PCs have no such things. They usually just deal the enemies some hundreds of damage. Lifesense fools any Hide check, or any other kind of ability. I created a specific feat just to counter it, though it is a very specific feat that few people have. A tashalatora will not be fighting the dragons, but a psion dealing 500 damage per round. Damp Power will only go so far, I assure you.

You are underestimating the power of a high-level, high-tier party. How many of you actually have experience with this situation?

I forgot they were already level 17. I play at this optimization level, but it's been quite a while since I played at this character level.

Divine caster, Metamagic Rod of Extend, 6th level Pearls of Power, Energy Immunity spell. Assume he's casting it every other day using the rod, so there are two instances of Energy Immunity per spell slot, plus two per Pearl of Power. If he's only casting it on himself, throw in Superior Resistance and he spends two 6th level spell slots with one rod and one pearl for all-day-every-day immunity to all five energy types plus a +6 to saves. They could throw Energy Immunity on other members of their encounter group as well, just give him more pearls. That solves the problem of hundreds-of-damage-nukes on important targets. Ray Deflection solves nuker problems as well, if he's just sticking to Crystal Shard. An immobile automatic reset trap of a given buff spell would be a bit cheesy, but the party can't loot it and you can call it 'fair' if you include the trap's CR in their XP gains.

Superior Invisibility will thwart any means of perception apart from touch and True Seeing. It only specifically covers the core perception types, but its description of "concealing the subject from all senses except touch" should encompass anything outside of core. I would actually make the same ruling for Darkstalker, since it's clearly intended to mask someone from any means of perception unless a successful Spot or Listen check is made. Magical Darkness effects can also serve to mask Lifesense, and multiple Heightened Deeper Darkness effects are particularly difficult to thwart unless the party has prepared for it with Heightened [Light] spells. A Heightened Everburning Torch completely thwarts Heightened Darkness effects, unless you make such spells of equal level cancel each other out one-for-one, so one HEBT versus four HDD results in three active HDDs. It gets somewhat arms-race if you include Earth Spell, so it's 10th level spells versus 9th level spells, but one opponent with Earth Spell and DMM: Heighten Spell and Deeper Darkness can completely blanket an entire dungeon for only a few spell slots per day considering its duration. There's also Obscuring Snow plus Snowsight, which a 3rd level opponent can use to completely thwart adventurers of any level.

Every encounter should have at least one opponent spamming Command Undead on any mindless undead the party has. Bonus points if they're extremely low level, have Mobile Spellcasting, and cast it through tiny windows. Include the occasional Wizard with the Domain Power ACF for Inquisition and possibly even Master Specialist Abjurer leaving Wall of (Greater) Dispel Magic in their path and using the above Mobile Spellcasting trick to spam-dispel their buffs. Include an (Un)Hallow effect with Dimensional Anchor attached to prevent them from Teleporting/Rope Tricking out and resting, which also prevents them from accessing extradimensional storage containers.

Flight can be thwarted by mundane nets, an Iron Bands spell regardless of their save, Downdraft, Kelpstrand, Control Winds especially if the caster has Stormrage active, Summon Monster/Nature's Ally or Planar Binding/Ally for Air Elementals in whirlwind form, or any number of other effects. Freedom of Movement can prevent much of that, but it does not allow flight under wind conditions that would normally prevent flight. Not being able to fly due to wind is already 'normal' so FoM won't change anything about it.

I could go on, but this should give you some ideas on how to shove them out of their comfort zone and make them feel challenged.

Suddo

2012-05-25, 02:28 PM

Can you, the OP, give us an example of an encounter you are giving them? I mean its a party consisting of multiple dragon zombies and 3 high level spellcasters, you should be able to throw a small army, of mid level people, at them and them come out ahead.

candycorn

2012-05-25, 02:39 PM

The AMF melee flies thanks to a graft, which is mundane and thus not affected by AMF. The minions are capable of fast flight, as they are zombie dragons. The DC of tanglefoot bags is low enough that a 2 will succeed even in AMF, and the PCs have no such things. They usually just deal the enemies some hundreds of damage. Lifesense fools any Hide check, or any other kind of ability. I created a specific feat just to counter it, though it is a very specific feat that few people have. A tashalatora will not be fighting the dragons, but a psion dealing 500 damage per round. Damp Power will only go so far, I assure you.

You are underestimating the power of a high-level, high-tier party. How many of you actually have experience with this situation?
Quite a bit. Dampen power isn't the relevant power. 6 instances of Awaken Spell resistance, good saves, and a High DC save or blind breath weapon should mitigate casters.

If your SR is 15-20 above the caster level of the party, then they need to Assay Resistance to even have a chance to affect the dragon with most spells. For the rest, low level spells convert natural armor to deflection, to weaken touch spells, and good saves cover the rest.

Dragons can be optimized to be absolutely deadly. For example: Here's a blue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=355962).

SR isn't built up as high, but it's invisible, and pounces on a charge, from up to 800 feet away (200 fly, double move down, and gets a double move on charge), with 8 attacks at a rather high damage modifier. With persistent wraithstrike, it pretty much power attacks for a lot, and shreds most things.

Also, a Deeper Darkness spell counters Lifesight, by setting the entire area to a specified illumination level.

The above dragon could easily get the Blinding Breath spell, and exchange multiattack for Heighten Breath. That would give it a breath weapon that did 20d8 damage and permanently blinds, Reflex DC 50 halves damage and negates blind. If someone wants to start with greater dispels, good luck. Its buffs are CL 25 to dispel (Practiced spellcaster, Karma Bead, Ring of enduring arcana). AMF? Ok, hit it for a lot, and watch it burrow underground and Fast heal to full, then come back.

Note: Even if you're immune to electricity, failing the save vs blinding breath permanently blinds you. This could be used on PCs riding zombie dragons to blind both, and the dragon's maneuverability would let it light up 2-3 targets without difficulty. Properly played, the above dragon would likely wipe the floor with your party. Removing Wraithstrike would lower it to a good fight.

This is what optimizing to the player's level is. If the party never dies, then the party doesn't consider that death is possible. Kill one, just once, and watch the party scramble to resurrect their comrade, then enter future comments with less bravado and more caution.

In other words?

The power of High level tier 1-2 characters can be challenged with high CR, well optimized foes.

If you choose not to do that, then it is your own choice to remain ineffective. And nobody can help you fix that.

For the High SR option, replace both Rapidstrike feats, multiattack, improved maneuverability, and hover with Awaken Spell resistance, boosting SR from 27 to 39, making it difficult to get off a spell, even if you're rolling a +20 to spell penetration checks.