Creatures with high Int

[Melnir]

I'm looking for a humanoid/plant/vermin/animal with high Int. Size is not a problem.

[danzibr]

I'm pretty sure you won't find a vermin or animal with an Int over 2. Dunno about plants.

[Telonius]

Does level adjustment matter? Are you looking for Templates as well?

There's Gray Elf, for a +2 to INT.

Age anything to Venerable, and that's +3 to INT.

[danzibr]

Well, to be more useful...

How high an Int are we talking? And do you *just* want to look at those types? Animal and vermin are out, leaving us with humanoid and plant. Also, why do you want a high Int? With the answers to those question, I'm sure I can find something.

[Urpriest]

If humanoid is included, are class levels relevant? Gear? Or are we just thinking about the base creature? What about templates?

[dspeyer]

If you look at the subtype definitions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm), you will see that animals cannot have Int>2 and vermin are mindless.

There are a few highly intelligent plants, the Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore) and Elder Treant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/treantElder). They're epic, though.

As for humanoids, I don't think anything beats a venerable grey elf (and they have a con score of 2).

You might expand to magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, fey that resemble humanoids, creatures with an alternate form ability, or templates (such as half-fiend) that technically change creature type but maybe you can ignore that.

Any limit on HD, ECL, CR or anything like that?

[Melnir]

Just base creatures, no template. HD and CR don't matter, but it must be a creature from a source as it is on that source (no class level, no advancement in HD, unless the creature advanced is on the handbook)

[Urpriest]

Just base creatures, no template. HD and CR don't matter, but it must be a creature from a source as it is on that source (no class level, no advancement in HD, unless the creature advanced is on the handbook)

Alright, for the moment we have the Elder Treant at Int 19. Let's see if we can do better.

[Telonius]

This one is a bit weird, and Eberron-specific: an Inspired (Eberron Campaign Setting), inhabited by a Quori Dream Master (Magic of Eberron). Technically an Empty Vessel is only a +1 Level adjustment race, and the entry doesn't specify any restrictions on what sort of Quori is inhabiting it. And, also technically, the Inspired is a humanoid. You won't be able to pull any aging shenanigans (since the score is based on the Quori and not the Vessel), and boosts to inherent bonuses probably aren't going to help much either. But at the low, low price of allowing a nightmarish extraplanar being access to your body, you can get 22 Intelligence.

[Gnorman]

But at the low, low price of allowing a nightmarish extraplanar being access to your body, you can get 22 Intelligence.

That's not a price. It's a bonus.

[Soranar]

Assuming LA buyoff

a half-giant can take the primordial giant template , granting it a bunch of ability modifiers , one of which being INT +4

[Urpriest]

Assuming LA buyoff

a half-giant can take the primordial giant template , granting it a bunch of ability modifiers , one of which being INT +4

Remains a giant, and involves a template, both of which are beyond the OP's criteria.

[hamishspence]

Volodni in Unapproachable East are a playable plant race- I think LA+1, same Int as humans.

[dspeyer]

Can you have an old elder treant? I can't find any RAW on the subject. On the one hand, it sounds terribly redundant. On the other, why wouldn't a thinking being benefit from experience?

With a starting con of 42 (and 50hd), it won't lack hp for the aging, but its starting dex of 8 could be slightly problematic.

[Melnir]

Ok, slightly different question: I still need creatures with high int, but no type/subtype problem this time. Anything better than 32 (great wyrm gold dragon)?

[Demonic_Spoon]

Of the top of my head I think the Gibbering Orb(ELH) has the highest printed int score at 40 something. Are you using PaO shenanigans or something? Templates still disallowed?

EDIT: Scratch that. Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, 64 int.

[Invader]

If you're just looking for reasonable creatures:
Bearhound - 16
Sorrowsworn - 20
Grimwierd - 18
Petal - 15
Rakshasa Ak'chazar - 19
Rejkar - 20
Splinterwaif - 18
Stonesinger - 16
Vermin Lord - 18

[Demonic_Spoon]

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870058/List_of_INT_Forms_for_Polymorph_Any_Object?pg=1) could also be useful.

[Invader]

EDIT: Scratch that. Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, 64 int.

Probably going to be hard to top this.

[Demonic_Spoon]

I find it amusing that elder brains only have 20-30 int.

[Little Brother]

Templates? Paragon immediately springs to mind.

Great Wyrm Time Dragon(Dr357) has 74 base. Riddled gives you +4 int, Spellhoarding is +2, so 80 intelligence, pre-Ikea.

[Melnir]

Of the top of my head I think the Gibbering Orb(ELH) has the highest printed int score at 40 something. Are you using PaO shenanigans or something? Templates still disallowed?

EDIT: Scratch that. Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, 64 int.

It's not for PAO, it's for symbiontic creature template, I need a guest with high Int score. Size is not a problem (fine via wish/miracle), neither type (wish ritual to change creature's type on SS).

Thanks for the dragon, it's amazing!



Great Wyrm Time Dragon(Dr357) has 74 base.

I can't find it, sure it's on Dr357?

[Demonic_Spoon]

Templates? Paragon immediately springs to mind.

Great Wyrm Time Dragon(Dr357) has 74 base. Riddled gives you +4 int, Spellhoarding is +2, so 80 intelligence, pre-Ikea.

Not to mention pseudonatural, half-illithid, corrupted, phrenic and voidmind.

What page is time dragon? Not seeing it.


It's not for PAO, it's for symbiontic creature template, I need a guest with high Int score. Size is not a problem (fine via wish/miracle), neither type (wish ritual to change creature's type on SS).

Thanks for the dragon, it's amazing!

Ah, symbiont cheese. Have you considered becoming a vermin via fang of lolth and having your follower who is a level 10 verminlord make a hivemind with you and a few swarms of fine vermin? IIRC you int and cha will be in the thousands.

[Little Brother]

Not to mention pseudonatural, half-illithid, corrupted, phrenic and voidmind.

What page is time dragon? Not seeing it.Oops, 359, sorry. Page 36.

I thought Voidmind made it mindless. What book is Voidmind?

[Demonic_Spoon]

Not mindless, but under the control of 3 illithids. So have a contingent slay illithids spell set to go off directly after you become voidmind, or dominate them before hand. Monster Manual 3

[Melnir]

Ah, symbiont cheese. Have you considered becoming a vermin via fang of lolth and having your follower who is a level 10 verminlord make a hivemind with you and a few swarms of fine vermin? IIRC you int and cha will be in the thousands.

Can you explain this better (how it works and sources of PrC, feats etc.)?
Anyway, a couple questions: vermin type might be better via wish ritual, since I'm beholder mage/dweomerkeeper (or incantatrix)/factotum//druid/planar shepard (gestalt lvl 20)?
How can I get a follower, leadership?

Thank you very much!

[Little Brother]

Ah.

Still doesn't qualify. Time Dragon is Colossal+, Voidmind only goes to Tiny-Huge

[Melnir]

Ah.

Still doesn't qualify. Time Dragon is Colossal+, Voidmind only goes to Tiny-Huge

NP, wish :smallbiggrin:

[Demonic_Spoon]

By default vermin are mindless, so it would probably be...unwise to gain the type by any other means than fang of lolth. Fang of lolth is in Song and Silence iirc. Vermin Lord and Hivemind is BoVD. Verminlord 10 gives the ability to create a hivemind of any vermin within 10 feet. IIRC for every 50 creatures added to the hivemind the int increases by 1 or something. A swarm of fine vermin has 10000ish creatures. Not to mention that passage from somewhere that allows more creature per square out of combat. Add swarms to taste, make a hivemind. Bam! Virtual sorceror caster levels, lots of feats, plenty of skillpoints, high int and high cha. Followers via thrallherd or leadership or whatever.Add something like Tattooed monk for more cheese.

[Little Brother]

NP, wish :smallbiggrin:Wish doesn't work like that. Wish does several very specific things. Magic shrinking doesn't work like that, though it WOULD explain half-ogre halflings before the invention of turkey basters...

[Demonic_Spoon]

There's a ritual involving wish in Savage Species that can do this. There's a reason SS is seen as broken.

[Little Brother]

There's a ritual involving wish in Savage Species that can do this. There's a reason SS is seen as broken.Um, no. The SS rituals can do several things, but only those things. You can play with LA and ECL, you can change your subtype, or get fifty new ones, change into another race, but not just "OHAI, IM TINY/COLOSSAL."

[Demonic_Spoon]

You are correct. My bad.

[Melnir]

So no way to change a creature's size?

[Little Brother]

So no way to change a creature's size?Not in the way you want, as far as I can see, given how the Ritual of Vitality would screw with your stats.

[Melnir]

I just need to keep mind-stats, not physical (since they are those of the host). Still nothing?

[Little Brother]

I just need to keep mind-stats, not physical (since they are those of the host). Still nothing?Yep. Pretty sure Ritual of Vitality(Which wish would emulate) would strip those bonuses, too.

[dspeyer]

Wish doesn't work like that. Wish does several very specific things. Magic shrinking doesn't work like that, though it WOULD explain half-ogre halflings before the invention of turkey basters...

Wish can duplicate the effects of any 8th level sor/wiz spell. Not just the published ones, but anything any NPC wizard ever custom-researched throughout the infinite multiverse. So if the DM agrees that an effect would be an 8th level spell or lower, you can wish it. Permanent Shrink Creature doesn't sound any more powerful than Polymorph Any Object, so a reasonable DM should allow it.

Not that a reasonable DM would allow the rest of this scheme.

[Curmudgeon]

Wish can duplicate the effects of any 8th level sor/wiz spell. Not just the published ones, but anything any NPC wizard ever custom-researched throughout the infinite multiverse.
But it must be a spell that's already been researched, so practically speaking it's only the spells that that DM has allowed. For most DMs that's going to be a very short (including empty) list. In all my years DMing I've never had anyone come to me with a truly custom spell research project; instead, it's always been someone who wanted to "research" a spell from some other class list.

[Urpriest]

If we're perma-shrinking things, Return to Nature should be applicable. Just make sure to take on the right type before it's cast, probably with Polymorph.

[Melnir]

If we're perma-shrinking things, Return to Nature should be applicable. Just make sure to take on the right type before it's cast, probably with Polymorph.

Can I cast it multiple times untill I get the needed size?