Optimizing fire damage

[DarthPeleus]

So far all I got is Energy Vulnerability (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-ii--80/energy-vulnerability--2911/) and Searing Spell (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/searing-spell--2540/).

Been building some sort of sorc/swordsage(unarmed?)/JPM/abjurant champ thing, to get Energy Vulnerability off as a free action (since its a 3rd level abjuration).

Basically trying to build an optimized Natsu from Fairy Tail, so any help in that direction would also be cool.

My issue with Energy Vulnerability is that it allows a save... makes a pretty sweet combo with Dragonfire Assault (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-magic--62/dragonfire-assault--731/) and feats of its ilk. The desert wind "Karyuu no <whatever>" are pretty fun with it too.

[Person_Man]

Wu Jen 6: +2 caster level for your elemental focus spell (one of which is Fire).

Rod of Elemental Might +2 to your caster level for your elemental focus. Wu Jen only. Complete Mage.

Bloodline of Fire feat: +2 caster level for spells with the Fire type. Player's Guide to Faerun.

Ring of Mystic: +1 caster level to Fire spells. Magic Item Compendium.

There's also a reserve Feat in Complete Mage that gives you +1 caster level to Fire spells.

So Wu Jen 6 with 2 Feats and two affordable magic items gets +8 to their caster level for Fire spells on their Wu Jen spell list.

[Mystral]

The Reserve Feat also gives a 3 foot radius area attack that does xd6 damage, reflex half, with X being your highest spell level.


If you want to really do a lot of fire damage, use a fireball necklace, throw it where you want the magic to happen, then fireball it.

[gbprime]

Wu Jen 6: +2 caster level for your elemental focus spell (one of which is Fire).

Rod of Elemental Might +2 to your caster level for your elemental focus. Wu Jen only. Complete Mage.

Bloodline of Fire feat: +2 caster level for spells with the Fire type. Player's Guide to Faerun.

Ring of Mystic: +1 caster level to Fire spells. Magic Item Compendium.

There's also a reserve Feat in Complete Mage that gives you +1 caster level to Fire spells.

So Wu Jen 6 with 2 Feats and two affordable magic items gets +8 to their caster level for Fire spells on their Wu Jen spell list.

Read the item entry again. The Rod of Elemental Might doesn't stack. If you have Fire Mastery (and have the +2 CL with it), you can gain a +2 CL with rods of OTHER elements, but a fire master with a fire rod gets no additional benefit.

Also, the Ring of Mystic Fire and the Fiery Burst reserve feat both give a +1 Competance bonus to caster level, so those don't stack either.

So save yourself 17,000 gold by skipping the two magic items and settle for a +5 to caster level. :smallamused:

[DarthPeleus]

Wow. With one of Jade Phoenix Mage's stances (+3CL for fire), this could get pretty fun.

Its a shame there isn't a good way to apply searing spell to Desert Wind's fire maneuvers. Although JPM has a few of "half of this damage is raw arcane energy" type stuff, so that works well with the flavor I'm aiming for.

I was thinking about dipping Spelldancer to persist stuff like Arcane Spellsurge and a few other buffs, is that a good idea? I haven't played sorc before, so I don't know if buffs will kill too many of my spells known.

So with that combo, I believe I can get off a spell via Spellsurge, then a free Quicken via Abjurant Champ/JPM, and stuff have a full round to punch things.

I think getting Asectic Mage will work with Swordsage AC bonus...


Does anyone know how to eat fire? The only spell I can think of is Energy Absorption (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/energy-absorption--764/).

Gishing out with sorc probably dropped the actual firepower a bit, (looking at +6-7ish for fire spells, but 4 lost caster levels, which I guess can be made up for with Practiced Spellcaster) but I think its worth it for the cool factor.

So I'd say this is probably a 3rd tier character? Maybe even 4th since he focuses on fire so much.


Thanks for the posts guys.

[jaybird]

Take a look at Fiery Spell as well for a +1 to each dice rolled of fire damage. Gets pretty insane between Empower Spell and Energy Admixture.

EDIT: If Pathfinder material is open, grab Persistent Spell. +1 (maybe +2?) to make an enemy save twice, take the worst save.

[Aeryr]

If you go Wu Jen, I personally really like Wu Jen: note that the spell compendium says

"Wu Jen (Complete Arcane): Add spells with element (except
air), wood, and metal themes."

So you might negotiate with your dm to get more fire spells. :smallsmile:

And there is transcend mortality + Emmerald immolation (once per week: I win)

[ThiagoMartell]

There is the Burning Veil item in the MIC - swift action for an extra 1d6 fire damage. It's not very powerful, though.

From what I've seen, Wu Jen 6 with Bloodline of Fire and Fiery Burst has CL 11 for fire spells... which means 3 scorching rays. Ouch.

Now that I think about it, considering how many attack rolls you make using optimized scorching ray, wouldn't Improved Critical (ray) become a viable feat?

[Person_Man]

Does anyone know how to eat fire? The only spell I can think of is Energy Absorption (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-mage--58/energy-absorption--764/).

Flame Cincture (Incarnate) soulmeld provides you with Fire Resistance 10 + 5*essentia invested. (Which translates into 15-50 total Fire Resistance, depending on a variety of factors). When bound to your Waist chakra, any Fire damage that you absorb can be turned into a blast of energy 1 round later, which can be used against 1 target as a Swift Action, dealing damage equal to the energy you absorbed (Reflex Save for half). I've used it with an Exploding weapon to great effect.

Phoenix Belt (Totemist) soulmeld provides you with Fire Resistance 5*essentia invested (significantly less then Flame Cincture). When bound to your Waist chakra, if you absorb Fire damage you gain Fast Healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to the damage you absorbed. Not very useful in combat, but a nice way to gain infinite healing for a modest investment.

You might also want to look at Frost Rager, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3). When Raging, he is immune to Cold damage, and heals 50% of the Cold damage he would have otherwise taken. You can convert Fire spells into Cold damage using the Energy Substitution metamagic feat, which does not remove the Fire designator from the spell ("The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.")

None of these are great options for you. But they'd be great options for an ally.

[Aeryr]

You might also want to grab flash casting from dragon magazine compendium, that gives enemies a penalty of -2 to attack you after you cast a fire spell.

[Slipperychicken]

Does anyone know how to eat fire?

People don't actually eat fire; they extinguish it in their mouths. That and other tricks would likely fall under a Perform skill. I would let that fall under Perform (Act), since you're only pretending/emulating fire-eating.


Your PC could just man up and take the damage :smallamused:


EDIT: In addition to CL boosting, Fiery burst also lets you use fire as often as you want, so you can be flashy without wasting spells/day.

[ThiagoMartell]

People don't actually eat fire; they extinguish it in their mouths. That and other tricks would likely fall under a Perform skill. I would let that fall under Perform (Act), since you're only pretending/emulating fire-eating.


Your PC could just man up and take the damage :smallamused:


EDIT: In addition to CL boosting, Fiery burst also lets you use fire as often as you want, so you can be flashy without wasting spells/day.

But he is trying to do Natsu... and Natsu does eat fire.

[gbprime]

From what I've seen, Wu Jen 6 with Bloodline of Fire and Fiery Burst has CL 11 for fire spells... which means 3 scorching rays. Ouch.

Yeah, too bad Wu Jen doesn't get Scorching Ray. :smalleek:

[ThiagoMartell]

Yeah, too bad Wu Jen doesn't get Scorching Ray. :smalleek:

Geez, what were they thinking?! That really sucks.

[gbprime]

Geez, what were they thinking?! That really sucks.

That's the perfect time to ask your DM for permission to research a new spell. Call it Scorching Ray and make it 2nd level... :smallsigh:

[Aeryr]

That's one of the reasons why I mentioned that you could talk your DM in letting you grab some more [fire] spells for other books.

It's a pitty that nor wu jen, nor shugenjas get love on their spell lists.

I certainly believe that more spells should be allowed in there. Alternatively there is the wyrm wizard, to get any spell you like, but you would loose caster levels, which is a pain.

[DoctorGlock]

Does anyone know how to eat fire?

there is a feat, spellfire wielder, that lets you absorb incoming spells if you ready an action to do so. you can release the absorbed magic as blasts of spellfire which is half fire and half raw magic. just reflavor as using your mouth do do so. now you can ready an action to absorb incoming etherion, not just fire.

[Morph Bark]

Read the item entry again. The Rod of Elemental Might doesn't stack. If you have Fire Mastery (and have the +2 CL with it), you can gain a +2 CL with rods of OTHER elements, but a fire master with a fire rod gets no additional benefit.

Also, the Ring of Mystic Fire and the Fiery Burst reserve feat both give a +1 Competance bonus to caster level, so those don't stack either.

So save yourself 17,000 gold by skipping the two magic items and settle for a +5 to caster level. :smallamused:

I'd suggest taking the Ring over the feat, since feat space is sparse, but in case of Fiery Burst you might want to have that for this character.

[ericgrau]

Energy vulnerability hits multiple targets which is a good way to get around saves as it's more likely that at leats one foe will fail. Sculpt spell for a larger area could further increase the number of targets IIRC.

[eggs]

Spelldancer is really cheesy if abused, and its feat costs make it pretty lackluster if it's not.

I'd use Unarmed Swordsage if it's an option, because it would waive the feat tax on using Ascetic Mage+Monk's Belt to add Charisma to AC, which would be pretty slick on this build.

The baseline build I'm seeing here is:
Swordsage 1/Sorcerer 5/JPM 5/Abjchamp 5/Sacred Exorcist 4 (JPM 5 delayed for some higher-level maneuver)

And the other options that I'd consider slipping in are:

Urban Savant or Runesmith dip at ECL 6 - I use both as go-to dips for JPMs to fill the awkward pre-JPM level and to pick up armored casting.
Sanctified One of Kord dip where it fits - Use fire spells against fire-immune monsters without wasting half the damage through Searing Spell; doesn't work with energy vulnerability, unfortunately. The lost caster level will hurt, but if you specialize in fire attacks, this could help.
Raumathari Battlemage 3 in place of Sacred Exorcist 2-4 - This gish is way old-timey, but a 3-level dip grants the ability to channel 2 metamagicked scorching rays through melee attacks each day (doesn't compete with maneuvers for actions), and maintains a decent BA progression.
Spelldancer 1 - I'd only seriously consider it if I were trying to break things. The feat costs of using it effectively are actually very high, and basically require abusing flaws, bloodlines and items for every extra feat available, and really scrounging to hit skill requirements. Otherwise Illumian Naenhoon+Sacred Exorcist is probably good enough.
Silver Pyromancer 5 - Loses a caster level and has crappy BA, but conceptually matches JPM, and could be used for a solid T3 burn-evil-with-fire sort of build.

[nedz]

That's the perfect time to ask your DM for permission to research a new spell. Call it Scorching Ray and make it 2nd level... :smallsigh:

Bah, who needs Scorching Ray when you can do Fire Shuriken

[ThiagoMartell]

Bah, who needs Scorching Ray when you can do Fire Shuriken

That's a very badly written spell. I had an Assassin in my game and every thing she cast this spell we would try to understand what the hell it meant.

[ericgrau]

It also isn't a touch attack and it has a 10' range increment, so you miss often without a lot of feats, high BAB or other costly optimization.

[DarthPeleus]

Thanks for all the posts guys!

Can't believe I forgot about Spellfire, my DM gave it to my wizard for free in a gestalt campaign once. I remember charging myself up to full since I could make the saves or whatever anyway.

Wu Jen is an option, though I believe Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk would force me into monk... but then I would be free to dip something like Warblade.

!! I just realized I could dip Battledancer/Warblade instead of two swordsage levels, AND pick up a monk's belt+Ascetic Mage for CHA>AC twice! AND I can show off my six pack? Win.

Thanks for looking in the Incarnum book for me Person_Man, but as you said those options are probably better for my allies.

Spellfire is probably the closest I can get to Natsu, but I'll have to take a closer look at the feats for this build, cuz I'm starting to look a lil feat starved.

I think I'll try one of the Akatsuki next... I nearly got Sasori nailed with Artificer...

[Crasical]

... Wait, what the hell happens when a Frostrager takes Blazing Berserker and gets a cold spell cast at them while raging? Do they

1.) Take 150% damage of the attack [Cold Vulnerability trumps Cold Immunity]
2.) Heal 50% of the damage the attack would have dealt [Cold Immunity trumps Cold Vulnerability]
3.) Heal 75% (50% of 150%) of the damage the attack would have dealt [Cold Vulnerability .... stacks with cold immunity?]

[nedz]

That's a very badly written spell. I had an Assassin in my game and every thing she cast this spell we would try to understand what the hell it meant.

Yes.

I was kind of assuming that you got 1 attack/3 levels on the round you cast it, with strength and sneak attack on all of them (apparantly), since the duration is instantaneous.

But you could take it to mean that you simply create ammunition, but the duration would then be wrong. Also: could any one throw them, or just the caster ?

The errata is silent here also.

[Person_Man]

I was thinking about dipping Spelldancer to persist stuff like Arcane Spellsurge and a few other buffs, is that a good idea? I haven't played sorc before, so I don't know if buffs will kill too many of my spells known.

I would suggest that you not use Spelldancer, or Persistent Spell tactics in general.

First, Spelldancer requires 4 terrible feats: Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Combat Casting. Wouldn't it be much more useful if you took 4 metamagic feats instead?

Second, from a metagame perspective it's generally a bad idea to have a constant high level of power. If your character has a power level (hit points, AC, miss chance, spell resistance, damage output, battlefielf control, etc) of X, then your DM must create encounters that challenge a character of X power. If your character has a power level of X + 10, then he simply creates encounters that are that much more difficult. If anything, they become harder, because more powerful enemies are more prone to "accidentally" kill a PC if the PC botches a Save or gets hit with a critical or whatnot.

That's why casters in general are so powerful by default. They start with a "weak" chassis of BAB and hit points and whatnot, but have a highly variable power level based on their spell selection and use. You want to keep that feature, not level it out throughout the game day by casting a lot of Persistent buffs.

[Morph Bark]

... Wait, what the hell happens when a Frostrager takes Blazing Berserker and gets a cold spell cast at them while raging? Do they

1.) Take 150% damage of the attack [Cold Vulnerability trumps Cold Immunity]
2.) Heal 50% of the damage the attack would have dealt [Cold Immunity trumps Cold Vulnerability]
3.) Heal 75% (50% of 150%) of the damage the attack would have dealt [Cold Vulnerability .... stacks with cold immunity?]

He has both Cold Vulnerability and Cold Immunity, so both would apply. The question is, which one would apply first? If they apply simultaneously or Cold Vulnerability applies first, I'd say it would be option 3 here. If Cold Immunity applies first it would be option 2.

[Randomguy]

Pick a fire spell you like and get Arcane Thesis of that spell. Then, you can pile on some fire metamagic onto that for no cost: Searing spell, blistering spell, fiery spell. And for reduced cost, there's empower spell, energy substitution and energy gestalt. Sculpt spell could also be useful.

If you're a spontaneous caster, then just grab a few fire spells (one single target, one area and a few others) and metamagic them up. I recommend, among others, Fire Orb, scorching ray and fireball.

Energy immunity (the level 7 spell) would let you literally eat fire, but not actually heal from it. And it lasts all day, too! A better alternative is elemental body(fire) which grants fire immunity in addition to some other bonuses, and also lasts all day.

I recommend WuJen 5/Swordsage 1/JPM X (until you qualify for abjurant champion)/Ab champ 5/JPM X.
You could alternatively swap out Wu Jen for sorcerer, or swap the level of abjurant champion with one of JPM if you prefer the JPM capstone.

[World]

Acid Sheath (Spell compendium) with energy substitution (fire). +1 dmg per dice. I'm using it on an elemental savant with success right now.

[Slipperychicken]

... Wait, what the hell happens when a Frostrager takes Blazing Berserker and gets a cold spell cast at them while raging? Do they

1.) Take 150% damage of the attack [Cold Vulnerability trumps Cold Immunity]
2.) Heal 50% of the damage the attack would have dealt [Cold Immunity trumps Cold Vulnerability]
3.) Heal 75% (50% of 150%) of the damage the attack would have dealt [Cold Vulnerability .... stacks with cold immunity?]

Absorb Cold references damage that would otherwise be dealt (as though you didn't have the Cold Immunity) to calculate the amount healed.

Cold Vulnerability adds 50% to cold damage taken

Cold Immunity says you never take cold damage

Option 3 is correct, since the cold damage that would be taken, barring Cold Immunity, is 150%. So you then divide this by half for Absorb Cold for 75%. There is no rules language stating that Cold Vulnerability negates Cold Immunity.

[DarthPeleus]

I would suggest that you not use Spelldancer, or Persistent Spell tactics in general.

First, Spelldancer requires 4 terrible feats: Dodge, Mobility, Endurance, and Combat Casting. Wouldn't it be much more useful if you took 4 metamagic feats instead?

Second, from a metagame perspective it's generally a bad idea to have a constant high level of power. If your character has a power level (hit points, AC, miss chance, spell resistance, damage output, battlefielf control, etc) of X, then your DM must create encounters that challenge a character of X power. If your character has a power level of X + 10, then he simply creates encounters that are that much more difficult. If anything, they become harder, because more powerful enemies are more prone to "accidentally" kill a PC if the PC botches a Save or gets hit with a critical or whatnot.

That's why casters in general are so powerful by default. They start with a "weak" chassis of BAB and hit points and whatnot, but have a highly variable power level based on their spell selection and use. You want to keep that feature, not level it out throughout the game day by casting a lot of Persistent buffs.

Doh, I totally overlooked the feat requirement- that alone is enough to turn me off.

The last time I did a persist build my DM had NPCs using Gate when we were lvl 15 or so. Point taken.

I do prefer the high power side of things, but friggin Gate :smalleek:

So far my build is something like


battledancer
sorcerer
sorcerer
sorcerer
warblade
sorcerer
JPM
JPM
abjurant champ
abjurant champ
abjurant champ
abjurant champ
abjurant champ
JPM
JPM
JPM
JPM
JPM
JPM

Haven't worked out feats and the like yet, but I figure I'll grab Ascetic Mage and get a monk's belt later.

I could take another level of JPM for +1 bab/caster level, unless there's something better out there to sneak in.

Almost all of our games run with fractional bab/saves, so if there are any other martial base classes I could use instead of Battledancer/Warblade, I'm open to suggestions.

I'm kinda set on sorcerer because of the Draconic fluff and a few other reasons.

Should I go sorc5/martial class 1 for my first levels instead? Or sorc4/martial class 1/some arcane prestige dip 1 ?

[ThiagoMartell]

I'd really advise against Ascetic Mage+Monk's Belt, you're already getting CHA to AC anyway. I think it's clearly intended that class features such as Battledancer, Ninja, Monk and Swordsage's 'Stat to AC' (without a level cap) to not stack. There is even official word regarding Monk/Ninja, so this is one of those cases where we can clearly define intent.
It's not gamebreaking or anything, I just don't think it's very elegant. Just my 2 cp.

[DarthPeleus]

I'd really advise against Ascetic Mage+Monk's Belt, you're already getting CHA to AC anyway. I think it's clearly intended that class features such as Battledancer, Ninja, Monk and Swordsage's 'Stat to AC' (without a level cap) to not stack. There is even official word regarding Monk/Ninja, so this is one of those cases where we can clearly define intent.
It's not gamebreaking or anything, I just don't think it's very elegant. Just my 2 cp.

Yeah, I could drop it if I wanted to, depending on the power level. I tend to go for 2-3 stacks of it in a lot of my builds though.

My GM made a build that managed to stack it somewhere around 5 times though, and at least twice to saves. With Mettle and Evasion it was pretty strong.

The biggest reason I'd be inclined to drop it is that I don't like item dependency(losing my monk's belt leaves me with a practically worthless feat).

[Person_Man]

I would dump Battledancer, and go with Sorcerer or Wizard 5/Warblade 1/JPM X/Ab Champ Y. An extra level of casting ability, and getting access to higher level spells one level sooner, is a lot more valuable then Cha to AC. Especially since plenty of spells can give you a much bigger bonus. Otherwise, looks solid.

[eggs]

Why Warblade? Its recharge mechanic plays very poorly with gishes, and its intelligence abilities don't really matter until level 7.

I'd either drop battledancer and go Unarmed Swordsage 1/Sorcerer 5/JPM 4/AbChamp 5/whatever with Ascetic Mage for the charisma synergy, or Crusader 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 1/JPM 4/AbjChamp 5/whatever for a more standard JPM build.

[DarthPeleus]

I'm a fan of Wall of Blades (for deflecting rays and such) and Iron Heart Surge. Although I guess Wings of Cover>Wall of Blades.

Also a fan of White Raven Tactics.

Isn't swordsage even worse than warblade for recovery?

I'd have to burn feats on both WRT and IHS though :/

Shame JPM has such bad maneuver selection.

[gooddragon1]

Cleric with creation domain and spontaneous fire domain.

Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm)

Divine Metamagic. Searing Spell. Empower Spell. Twin Spell. Repeat Spell. A sack.

48xcaster level in damage uncapped penetrating through fire resistance and halfway through fire immunity.

13*48=624 damage. Also 1.5(48d8) damage but that's not as important.

[Soranar]

Personally I would dip 1 level into Sanctified One (in complete champion).

A sanctified of Kord can gain the special ability to transform his fire spells into divine (good aligned) damage, next to no creatures have resistance to that.

You do lose a caster level but it's more than worth it and you can make up for it. The only requirements are roleplay (Chaotic Good), some BAB (might take a while to reach BAB +5 as a sorcerer) a few skillranks.