Are LA+0 races ideally worth 2 feats? What are larger LA worth? [3.5]

[Larkas]

I've been reading this most excellent race building guide originally by VoodooMike (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/houseRules/pFRaceBuildingGuide) and posted in the Playground by Golden-Esque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183223). Now, it was originally made with eyes set on Pathfinder, but I found out it applies reasonably well to 3.5 as well. Specifically, VoodooMike argues that Pathfinder races are worth more or less 2.5 feats each. Similarly, one can conclude that 3.5's races should ideally be worth 2 feats each. Unlike in Pathfinder, though, in 3.5 the races' power level vary wildly. I've created a fix for all the PHB races that has been generally well received in the groups I play in, and I try to bring all the races to this balancing point. Here they are:

Player's Handbook

Human

No change. Humans were my benchmark, and their abilities are worth 2 feats (8 points, if you read the guide).

Dwarf

Same as the original, plus the following:

Weapon Proficiency: Dwarves are proficient with battleaxes, heavy picks, and warhammers.

Dwarves are generally held as balanced, anyways, this is just a minor buff that brings them to the humans' power level.

Elf

Same as the original, plus the following:

Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.

Elves are originally a lot weaker than humans. In fact, they are worth just a bit more than one feat. Borrowed from Pathfinder, this racial spell penetration brings it to the same power level as humans. In fact, they are slightly more powerful than humans, just 1 point, if you're following the guide, but nothing unbalancing.

Gnome

Same as the original, plus the following:

+2 racial bonus on Search and Spot.

Gnomes are originally perfectly balanced against humans. This is just a minor buff to the "Pereception" skills.

Half-Elf

Same as the original, plus the following:

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot. -- This is in place of the regular +1 to these skills.

Skill Familiarity: Choose a skill. You get a +3 bonus on all checks involving the chosen skill. If you have 13 or more ranks in that skill, this bonus increases to +6.

Half-elves are even weaker than elves when compared to humans. Again I borrowed from Pathfinder to fix them. 3.5's Skill Focus isn't worth 4 points, but Pathfinder's certainly is (read the guide!).

Half-Orc

Same as the original, plus the following:

+2 Strength, -2 Charisma. -- This is in place of the half-orc's regular ability score adjustments.

Run: Half-orcs receive Run as a racial bonus feat.

+2 racial bonus on Climb, Intimidate and Survival.

Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs treat the orc double axe as a martial weapon.

Weapon Proficiency: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions.

Half-orcs out-of-the-box are just terrible. They are worth no feat at all. As such, they needed some major buffing. Again, I turned to Pathfinder, but even there half-orcs are slightly weaker than humans. I also looked at UA's Desert Half-Orc. With these additions, they are theoretically balanced against humans.

Halflings

Same as the original, plus the following:

+2 racial bonus on Search and Spot.

Weapon Proficiency: Halflings are proficient with slings.

Halflings are somewhat balanced against humans (a fate their Pathfinder's counterparts unfortunately don't share). With this minor buff, they are theoretically as powerful as humans.
Monster Manual

I won't go into many details here. Suffice to say I only addressed LA+0 races (or, in the case of the Hobgoblin, brought it down to LA+0), and even then didn't touch some spiny ones.

Elf, Aquatic

Same as the original, minus the following:

Automatic search within 5' of hidden door.

Elf, Gray

Same as the original, plus the following:

Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.

Minus the following:

Weapon Proficiency with longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow).

Elf, Wild

Same as the original, plus the following:

Elven Magic: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.

Elf, Wood

Same as the original, plus the following:

+2 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently and Survival.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—mending, purify food and drink. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + wood elf’s Wis modifier + spell level.

Goblin

Same as the original, plus the following:

-2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, -4 Charisma. -- This is in place of the goblin's regular ability score adjustments.

Hobgoblin

Same as the original, plus the following:

+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. -- This is in place of the hobgoblin's regular ability score adjustments.

Kobold

Same as the original, plus the following:

Natural Weapons: Claws 1d3.

Slight Build.

Weapon Proficiency: heavy pick and light pick.

Weapon Familiarity: greatpicks.

Yep, Races of the Dragon fix brings it to the human's power level.

Orc

Same as the original, plus the following:

+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. -- This is in place of the orc's regular ability score adjustments.

Weapon Familiarity: orc double axe.

Weapon Proficiency: greataxe and falchion.
Now, these are quick and effective, if easy, fixes. In my experience, this is a strong indication that the "LA+0 race = 2 feats" thesis holds. (I must warn that, in my analysis, I've ignored the "favored class" line. Most people don't use that, anyways, and it would skew the analysis too much.)

I was trying to fix a few other races too, but can't find a clear indication of how much LA +1 races are worth. 3 feats are obviously too little: this is where the Hobgoblin originally stands. 4 might be okay, but I still think it is too little. I'm tending towards 5, since you're giving up a level, and everything that comes with it, but it might be too much. I'm guessing 3 feats per LA point might be good (hence LA +0 = 2; LA +1 = 5; LA +2 = 8; etc.).

What do you guys think LA +1 races (and greater) are worth?

PS: In case you're wondering, by my calculations the Drow is worth some 7 feats... Yeah. I guess it needs internal consistency before tackling external balance. I'm trying to fix it as a LA +1, by the way. I'd love to hear about some balanced LA +1 races to further investigate this.

[Malachei]

Elves actually get four bonus feats already :smallbiggrin: Incredibly handy for feat retraining / shuffling.

[Morph Bark]

You nerf orcs? What is wrong with you. D:

[Larkas]

Elves actually get four bonus feats already :smallbiggrin: Incredibly handy for feat retraining / shuffling.

I'll feel stupid asking, but... Huh?


You nerf orcs? What is wrong with you. D:

I gave them too many things, I had to give them another -2 to Charisma to keep balance :smalleek: EDIT: OOOOOOOOOH, I forgot to say it was to be used instead of the original bonuses. Fixed.

[Urpriest]

It's really hard to characterize LA +1, since it's basically the designers' category of "reasonable for players but doesn't adhere to whatever we think is our balance point for LA +0".

It would probably be best to try to think of LA +1 races that are considered worthwhile.

The Goliath is probably a benchmark of a balanced LA +1. Lolth-Touched and Half-Minotaur are too powerful, Hobgoblin and Blue too weak. Half-Giant might be a bit too weak. Aasimar and Tiefling are probably still too weak, considering that one almost always sees players advised to use tricks to avoid the LA. Dark is probably a fine LA +1.

The trouble is that a well-designed race should give something qualitatively different than other races or feats in order to be worthwhile (both for players and from a game design perspective). And if every race has something qualitatively different from every other race then you really can't use a point system for them.

[hamishspence]

I'll feel stupid asking, but... Huh?

weapon proficiency- longbow, rapier, long sword, short bow.

[Larkas]

Thanks for the input, Urpriest :smallsmile:

Hmmm, indeed, you have to take some very general and broad guidelines to be able to measure them. The guide is good at that, but maybe too narrow for LA +1 or greater races. I'll try analyzing the Goliath and the Dark, then, and see where they stand in regards to it. I'll post my findings here as soon as I have them.

[Larkas]

weapon proficiency- longbow, rapier, long sword, short bow.


Elves get four weapon proficiency, as per PHBII retraining you can retrain these into any four feats you want.
EDIT: ninja'd

Oooooh, of course. Hmmm, this is something different in Pathfinder, races are "proficient with X", but do not "gain weapon proficiency with X as a bonus feat". I never ran into issues with that in my groups, as everyone (thankfully) pretty much overlooked it and assumed it was fixed. For the purpose of my fixes, consider those as "bonus proficiencies" but not as "bonus feats". You guys have a point, though, if the DM considers the proficiencies as fair game for retraining/shuffling.

[Morph Bark]

I gave them too many things, I had to give them another -2 to Charisma to keep balance :smalleek: EDIT: OOOOOOOOOH, I forgot to say it was to be used instead of the original bonuses. Fixed.

No, that's not what I meant.

You gave them two weapon proficiencies, which they'd probably still get since they're heavily martial-inclined, plus a weaker version of an already weak feat (Diehard), while further penalizing their mental stats, which pushes them further away from casting and skill classes, further making the martial weapon proficiencies redundant.

Really, the orc race from Core is not that strong. I'd actually remove a mental penalty rather than make one even stronger.

Orcs are far from my favourite race, but this is like taking someone who is already living in bad conditions and forcing him to play in the Hunger Games.

[Malachei]

Oooooh, of course. Hmmm, this is something different in Pathfinder, races are "proficient with X", but do not "gain weapon proficiency with X as a bonus feat". I never ran into issues with that in my groups, as everyone (thankfully) pretty much overlooked it and assumed it was fixed. For the purpose of my fixes, consider those as "bonus proficiencies" but not as "bonus feats". You guys have a point, though, if the DM considers the proficiencies as fair game for retraining/shuffling.

I would houserule this out in my game, as well. But RAW, it works.

[Larkas]

No, that's not what I meant.

You gave them two weapon proficiencies, which they'd probably still get since they're heavily martial-inclined, plus a weaker version of an already weak feat (Diehard), while further penalizing their mental stats, which pushes them further away from casting and skill classes, further making the martial weapon proficiencies redundant.

Really, the orc race from Core is not that strong. I'd actually remove a mental penalty rather than make one even stronger.

Orcs are far from my favourite race, but this is like taking someone who is already living in bad conditions and forcing him to play in the Hunger Games.

I just reread my Orc (I had merely copied it from the file I distribute to my groups) and noticed something was funny: my previous analysis was one point off. Hence, it originally has 7 points, not 6, and to fix this, you can merely lift one penalty, as you suggest. I'd say do away with the Wis penalty, then, but keep Weapon Familiarity and Weapon Proficiency. Thanks for that, I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't pointed out. I have to think of something else to give the half-orc other than ferocity then. Not the purpose of this thread, anyways, but I'll edit the first post as soon as I come up with something.

Interestingly, the "2 feats" thesis holds, even if unwittingly.

[Glimbur]

Elves get four weapon proficiency, as per PHBII retraining you can retrain these into any four feats you want.
EDIT: ninja'd

I don't believe you are allowed to retrain racial feats. You can Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos, but that takes a little more effort on the part of the PC.

[Morph Bark]

I just reread my Orc (I had merely copied it from the file I distribute to my groups) and noticed something was funny: my previous analysis was one point off. Hence, it originally has 7 points, not 6, and to fix this, you can merely lift one penalty, as you suggest. I'd say do away with the Wis penalty, then, but keep Weapon Familiarity and Weapon Proficiency. Thanks for that, I wouldn't have noticed if you hadn't pointed out. I have to think of something else to give the half-orc other than ferocity then. Not the purpose of this thread, anyways, but I'll edit the first post as soon as I come up with something.

Interestingly, the "2 feats" thesis holds, even if unwittingly.

(b'_')b
q(>_<q) You looked!

[hamishspence]

It does say "you must be able to show you met the prequisites for the new feat at the time you chose the previous feat" - and you don't choose bonus feats.

[Larkas]

Okay, I've broken down the Goliath, and this is what I found out:


Goliath

+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. [14 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Monstrous Humanoid. [4 points] -- Immunity to effects targeting humanoids, ad-hoc +2 due to utility.

Powerful Build. [10 points] -- Roughly worth two feats: one increasing all "combat maneuver" bonuses (but not removing AoO chances), the other, an improved version of Monkey Grip. Ad-hoc +2 due to power.

Mountain Movement. [4 points] -- Worth one feat: Leap of the Heavens.

Acclimated. [1 point] -- Real bonus, but rarely comes into play.

+2 racial bonus on Sense Motive. [1 point]

TOTAL: 34 points.
(Again, I recommend reading the guide if you want to understand this fully.)

That is... 8 1/2 feats! A case can be made for the ad-hoc adjustments, be they too low or too high, but I don't see this going below 8 or above 9 feats. Very interesting... This would explain why Drows are widely regarded as underpowered, their total is ~29 under my analysis, just a bit more than 7 feats. I would like to continue this analysis. Where can I find this Dark race Urpriest mentioned? I can't seem to find them in Candlekeep's index :smallfrown:

[Morph Bark]

Where can I find this Dark race Urpriest mentioned? I can't seem to find them in Candlekeep's index :smallfrown:

It's not a race, it's a template. It's in the Shadow Magic part of Tome of Magic, one of the last 3.5 supplements to come out.

[Larkas]

It's not a race, it's a template. It's in the Shadow Magic part of Tome of Magic, one of the last 3.5 supplements to come out.

D'oh, of course, I was just wondering if he meant the Dark Creature template. Sorry for the dumbness :smallfrown:

Here is what I found out:


Dark Creature

Extraplanar subtype. [-1 point] -- Situational, but can be banished.

Speed: +10 ft. [8 points] -- Roughly worth two feats: Dash/Speed of Thought. Those are fairly weak feats, so I won't add an ad-hoc adjustment due to utility.

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

Hide in Plain Sight. [6 points] -- Hard one. It's a high level class ability, so I'd say it is worth a little more than a feat.

Resistance to cold 10. [4 points] -- ER 5 is worth 2 points, x2.

Superior Low-Light Vision. [2 points] -- LLV is worth 1 point, ad-hoc +1 due to increased range.

+8 racial bonus to Hide [4 points]

+6 racial bonus to Move Silently. [3 points]

TOTAL: 28

Which is... 7 feats, though may be frequently 6 1/2 (if the base creature has darkvision) and 6 3/4 (if the base creature has Low-Light Vision). Again, there is some space for debate, but I only see this going down, not up. Very nice, that falls really near the total for the Goliath (it is a race, so it gains 2 feats from LA +0)!

So, it seems that +6 /12~7 feats for LA +1 is somewhat balanced. What do you think?

[Morph Bark]

So, it seems that +6 /12~7 feats for LA +1 is somewhat balanced. What do you think?

You have to keep in mind that it's a template, so it would be added on top of an existing race. If it is balanced and the race is balanced too, you get 14 effective feats for LA+1, meaning an Aasimar or Tiefling would need to be worth 14 feats.

[KoboldCleric]

It's not really fair to rate individual abilites out of context either. Everything in the dark template meshes together extremely well. Each of the Goliath's abilities build off one another. For some races that just isn't the case. Getting a bonus to use magic device and an extra 5 feet of reach sounds great ... But not if it's accompanied by a big charisma penalty and having only 1 limb.

[Larkas]

You have to keep in mind that it's a template, so it would be added on top of an existing race. If it is balanced and the race is balanced too, you get 14 effective feats for LA+1, meaning an Aasimar or Tiefling would need to be worth 14 feats.

Taking the risk of sounding dumb again, but... Huh? LA +1 templates are worth roughly 7 feats, LA +1 races are worth roughly 9 feats, which is equivalent to a LA +0 race with a LA +1 template. If you had a LA +1 race with a LA +1, you'd have 16 feats, but a LA +2. If that's what you mean, okay, but I kinda lost you there. (I still hadn't measured up the Aasimar or the Tiefling, but if I had to guess, I'd say they they are worth far less than 9 feats.)


It's not really fair to rate individual abilites out of context either. Everything in the dark template meshes together extremely well. Each of the Goliath's abilities build off one another. For some races that just isn't the case. Getting a bonus to use magic device and an extra 5 feet of reach sounds great ... But not if it's accompanied by a big charisma penalty and having only 1 limb.

This is an abstraction I unfortunately have to make for this analysis. You can of course have a race or template theoretically balanced, but practically worthless. I haven't run into such a terrible example, though. If such example exists, and I'm sure it does, it would have to suffer an intra-race or intra-template fix first, and be balanced against other races or templates after. Anyways, just keep in mind I seek to find a guideline, not an absolute truth :smallsmile:

PS: Changed both the orc and half-orc fixes presented on the first post.

[Morph Bark]

Taking the risk of sounding dumb again, but... Huh? LA +1 templates are worth roughly 7 feats, LA +1 races are worth roughly 9 feats, which is equivalent to a LA +0 race with a LA +1 template. If you had a LA +1 race with a LA +1, you'd have 16 feats, but a LA +2. If that's what you mean, okay, but I kinda lost you there. (I still hadn't measured up the Aasimar or the Tiefling, but if I had to guess, I'd say they they are worth far less than 9 feats.)

Is that how it works? I'm sorry, I haven't read through that feat-point-race-building guide. I figured an LA+0 race with an LA+1 template would have to be equally strong as an LA+1 race, which would mean both would need to have an equal worth in feats, so an Aasimar or Tiefling would need to be worth 14 feats to measure up to a Dark Human, for instance.

[Larkas]

Is that how it works? I'm sorry, I haven't read through that feat-point-race-building guide. I figured an LA+0 race with an LA+1 template would have to be equally strong as an LA+1 race, which would mean both would need to have an equal worth in feats, so an Aasimar or Tiefling would need to be worth 14 feats to measure up to a Dark Human, for instance.

Oh, never mind that, that isn't addressed on that guide, unfortunately, since it is about Pathfinder and it doesn't have anything on LA. It is something I was trying to assess, and with the AMAZING UNIVERSE OF SAMPLES I have at my disposal (i.e.: 1 race and 1 template), everything points towards that value for an "ideal" LA +1 race or template.

Following your though exercise, would you say that a Goliath measure up to a Dark Halfling? (height pun definitely not intended :smalltongue: )

[Urpriest]

If you're looking for more to consider, I'd take a look at Feral and Mineral Warrior. Both might be a bit too powerful. Dvati is another interesting example, although pricing that would be a major pain. Ditto on Diopsid.

[Larkas]

If you're looking for more to consider, I'd take a look at Feral and Mineral Warrior. Both might be a bit too powerful. Dvati is another interesting example, although pricing that would be a major pain. Ditto on Diopsid.

Great ideas, I'll get to it immediately.

Meanwhile, I took a look at both planetouched, and it is as expected.


Aasimar

+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. [8 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Native Outsider. [4 points] -- Immunity to effects targeting humanoids, ad-hoc +2 due to utility.

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen. [1 point]

Spell-Like Ability: 1/day—daylight. [2 points]

Elemental Resistance: acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5. [6 points]

TOTAL: 21 points.


Tiefling

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. [0 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Native Outsider. [4 points] -- Immunity to effects targeting humanoids, ad-hoc +2 due to utility.

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on Bluff and Hide. [2 points]

Spell-Like Ability: 1/day—darkness. [2 points]

Elemental Resistance: cold 5, electricity 5, fire 5. [6 points]

TOTAL: 16 points.

5 1/4 and 4 feats, respectively.

[Larkas]

Feral Creature

+4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis. [~10 points]

Monstrous Humanoid. [4 points] -- Immunity to effects targeting humanoids, ad-hoc +2 due to utility.

Hit Dice increase. [2 points] -- Roughly worth Improved Toughness, ad-hoc -2 due to only applying to RHD.

Land Speed: +10 ft. [8 points] -- Roughly worth two feats: Dash/Speed of Thought.

Natural Armor: +6 [24 points]

Claws: Small 1d6, Medium 1d8. [4 points] -- Ad-hoc +2 due to the increased damage.

Improved Grab at 1st. [6 points] -- Roughly worth a feat and a half.

Pounce at 3rd. [6 points] -- Online probably before it matters, so full price.

Rake at 8th. [4 points] -- Worth a feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; better because of the lack of penalties altogether, worse because it is conditional.

Rend at 12th. [4 points] -- Online late, worth two attacks.

Darkvision 60'/60'/90'/120'. [2 points] -- The increased range comes online late enough for it to not matter.

Fast Healing 2/3/4/5. [8 points] -- Worth a feat: Combat Vigor. Ad-hoc +4 due to increasing gains and due to the lack of prerequisites for it to work.

TOTAL: ~82 points.

And this is where things start to break... The ability adjustments alone are enough to skew things. It can be worth as low as 6 points, and as high as 40 (maybe even more!), depending on the base race. By my account, the template is worth, on average, anything between 20 and 25 feats! Of course, it is common sense that Feral is a template too good to be LA +1, but all this shows is that this system is probably no good for gauging LA +2 or higher. That, or Feral should be LA +3 :smallyuk:

[One Step Two]

Just my two copper on the matter of templates, but it seems templates themselves do not factor into the same maths for LA races, because they aren't a starting race, they're a force multiplier. Attach the Feral template, for example, to any race, even an LA +0 one, and you're dealing with something that's wildly different now, especially when it comes to synergy with whatever the template is attached to. White Dragonspawn Kobold anyone?

That said, I am very interested in this thread, and would like to see a consensus on what an LA +1 race should be worth feat wise to marry up with the above given mechanics that LA +0 is worth 2.

To give this some numbers, using 3.5 mechanics, a Starting race with LA +0 is 2 feats worth of racial features, and 0 experience points.
Now, if you're willing to bare with some shaky logical premise of varied rule-sets, I can apply something of a not unreasonable thesis to this.
An LA +1 race has a currently undetermined number of racial features worth of feats.
We could reason that, using Unearted Arcana's LA buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) that an LA +1 is worth around 3000xp. (note that this is an LA +1 which has no RHD)
Onto the next step; a feat is worth around 3000gp, a given example is the Otyugh Hole from Complete scoundrel giving a feat for the value of 3000gp treasure.
Here's where things get more shaky, and again, I hope you forgive it, but I think it's the most applicable scenario. The given worth of experience points, expressed in a GP value, is in the Book of Exalted deeds pg30, when discussing components for a Vow of poverty character, that a character can sacrafice 1xp for each 5gp value. I think I remember reading somewhere else where it makes this same value, but I cannot recall it off the top of my head.

Bringing these factors together, we have 1 feat is 3000gp, 3000gp translates into 600xp, therefore 1 feat ends up costing 600xp.
Given that we must sacrafice 3000xp to offset an LA of +1, this gives us the same xp value for 5 feats.
Adding into the fact a base LA +0 race has 2 feats, we can surmise that an LA +1 race should have 7 feats (or 28 points), given the factors above.

I cannot stress enough this is shaky precedent at best, because it assumes too much in a vaccum as well as being a little too scattered in it's sources. But I hope it helps.

[Larkas]

That is actually a very interesting reasoning! It falls a little short of our "ideal" LA +1 race, the Goliath. Do you think giving up a level would be worth 2 feats? After all, you are getting otherwise no BAB or BSB progression, no class features, no hit die, etc.

[willpell]

Elves get four weapon proficiency, as per PHBII retraining you can retrain these into any four feats you want.
EDIT: ninja'd

How exactly is this claimed to work? PHB2 says that when Retraining you can only make a choice that you could have made at the time. You choose your race, but you don't choose the weapon proficiency feats that automatically come with that race. Ergo, the elf proficiencies can't be retrained, as they were the only options for the "bonus feats" you get as a consequence of being an Elf; there is nothing they could legally be exchanged for (at least nothing that you couldn't have taken in the first place with no retraining required).

Perhaps the RAW allows this, but if so it's yet another case of poorly-written rules text that doesn't actually say what it was almost certainly intended to mean.

[Malachei]

An LA +1 race has a currently undetermined number of racial features worth of feats.
We could reason that, using Unearted Arcana's LA buyoff rules that an LA +1 is worth around 3000xp. (note that this is an LA +1 which has no RHD)
Onto the next step; a feat is worth around 3000gp, a given example is the Otyugh Hole from Complete scoundrel giving a feat for the value of 3000gp treasure.
Here's where things get more shaky, and again, I hope you forgive it, but I think it's the most applicable scenario. The given worth of experience points, expressed in a GP value, is in the Book of Exalted deeds pg30, when discussing components for a Vow of poverty character, that a character can sacrafice 1xp for each 5gp value. I think I remember reading somewhere else where it makes this same value, but I cannot recall it off the top of my head.

Bringing these factors together, we have 1 feat is 3000gp, 3000gp translates into 600xp, therefore 1 feat ends up costing 600xp.
Given that we must sacrafice 3000xp to offset an LA of +1, this gives us the same xp value for 5 feats.
Adding into the fact a base LA +0 race has 2 feats, we can surmise that an LA +1 race should have 7 feats (or 28 points), given the factors above.

I cannot stress enough this is shaky precedent at best, because it assumes too much in a vaccum as well as being a little too scattered in it's sources. But I hope it helps.

Interesting, but Otyugh Hole is really an exception. If you would generalize that a feat costs 3000 GP, then in many situations, the smartest tactic for spending your WBL would be to go shopping for feats. If at 20th level, a character could spend 30000 GP to buy ten feats, everybody would do so.

Also, saying the Iron Will feat is only purchased is a shortcut: It is acquired as part of a short adventure.

Some feats (e.g. Shock Trooper, Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, Stormguard Warrior) are clearly worth more than others (e.g. Iron Will, Skill Focus (Intimidate), etc.). Making weak feats available through adventure sites is a way of lowering the entry costs for these feats, on a case-by-case basis subject to DM fiat. Game-design-wise, this is a good way of awarding characters benefits for specific adventuring sites, but it is not a valid concept for generalization.

Finally, the equation GP ~ XP existed in 1st edition, but does not work here: Looking at XP required to rise in level and looking at the WBL progression, we see that the ratio varies over time. At 2nd level, the XP/GP ratio is 0.9, while at 20th, the ratio is 4.



That is actually a very interesting reasoning! It falls a little short of our "ideal" LA +1 race, the Goliath. Do you think giving up a level would be worth 2 feats? After all, you are getting otherwise no BAB or BSB progression, no class features, no hit die, etc.

I think this also depends on class/build. For a fighter, who gets a bonus feat any other level, the value of additional feats is significantly lower than for a Ranger. Some builds, like TWFing are very feat-taxing. And for a full caster, I'd say 1 level of spellcasting progression > 2 feats.

And instead of taking 2 feats for 0 BAB, HP, Saves, you could just take a level of fighter for 1 feat, 1 BAB, 1d10 HP and +2 Fort Save.

Most importantly, whether Level-Adjustment Buy-Off is available heavily affects how good +1 LA races are. If LA-Buy-Off is out, full casters will normally take LA+0 races only.

[One Step Two]

Interesting, but Otyugh Hole is really an exception. If you would generalize that a feat costs 3000 GP, then in many situations, the smartest tactic for spending your WBL would be to go shopping for feats. If at 20th level, a character could spend 30000 GP to buy ten feats, everybody would do so.

Also, saying the Iron Will feat is only purchased is a shortcut: It is acquired as part of a short adventure.

Some feats (e.g. Shock Trooper, Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, Stormguard Warrior) are clearly worth more than others (e.g. Iron Will, Skill Focus (Intimidate), etc.). Making weak feats available through adventure sites is a way of lowering the entry costs for these feats, on a case-by-case basis subject to DM fiat. Game-design-wise, this is a good way of awarding characters benefits for specific adventuring sites, but it is not a valid concept for generalization.

I don't disagree with any of what you said, but I would like to point out that I didn't advocate that anyone should, or can buy feats, just stating an existing precedent where feats have a stated cost.
Atleast a more direct one, rather than say using the Heroics spell, and attempting to divine a cost based on a permanent magical item, or trying to use the reverse of the forumla for magic item creation on a Dark Blue Rhomboid Ioun Stone for the equivalent worth of the Alertness feat.

Furthermore, I am well aware that the relative worth of Iron will, or the other two feats the Otyugh hole can provide (people seem to forget it actually lets you chose from one of three choices), are less than optimal, that isn't why I was using it. Some would argue as well, that some racial traits you gain are less than optimal as well. It was simply the easiest direct cost for a feat I could think of off the top of my head.



Finally, the equation GP ~ XP existed in 1st edition, but does not work here: Looking at XP required to rise in level and looking at the WBL progression, we see that the ratio varies over time. At 2nd level, the XP/GP ratio is 0.9, while at 20th, the ratio is 4.

Which relates to my post how exactly, given it's context? I am aware that the straight conversion of GP to XP is not explicit outside a few circumstances, the one which I referenced was in my post too, along with the fact that I was only using these figures to give us a very rough sort of idea of what sort of scaling we could be looking at between an LA +0 and an LA +1.

I appreciate the sentiments you are offering, but what does that add? Can you give us your thoughts on what you believe might be a suitable criteria for this sort of gague?

If we compare my, admittedly shaky, maths to what others expound as a very well-rounded LA +1, the Goliath, my rough approximation puts a LA +1 at around 28 Racial Build Points. The break-down of the Goliath Race puts it at around 34 Racial build points.

I don't want to go right out and say either one is the best given example for an LA +1 race, but it does provide us with a comparable set of figures to serve as both food for thought and a base to work from. This isn't to say we should break down every single LA +1 Race to get an asbsolute median, but then again, that would certainly be helpful too... but I dont have the time :smallbiggrin:


I think this also depends on class/build. For a fighter, who gets a bonus feat any other level, the value of additional feats is significantly lower than for a Ranger. Some builds, like TWFing are very feat-taxing. And for a full caster, I'd say 1 level of spellcasting progression > 2 feats.

And instead of taking 2 feats for 0 BAB, HP, Saves, you could just take a level of fighter for 1 feat, 1 BAB, 1d10 HP and +2 Fort Save.

I don't think this particularly factors into what this thread is trying to achieve, only because we aren't talking about actual Feats in exchange for levels, so much as the equivalent of 2 feats for a level loss, which is what an LA is, a loss in class progression for a flavourful, or alternately powerful racial feature. Also, I think Larkas would need to clarify if he meant 7(or 8.5) feats not 2 in that particular statement, due to the context of his post in relation to mine.


Most importantly, whether Level-Adjustment Buy-Off is available heavily affects how good +1 LA races are. If LA-Buy-Off is out, full casters will normally take LA+0 races only.

I think this is a very good question, it can change alot of how we percieve the LA as a whole, but comes down more to the context of the DM and the game. If a game persists long enough, even without LA buyoff and you are playing a character with LA +2, you will still reach level 20, just at a much slower rate that others in the party with lower or no LA. But the reality is, how many games does your group have that span such level periods? It's not something that's easily answered, only because there could be GM's out there who don't know what Unearthed Arcana is as well, as unlikely as that may be.

My opinion to that effect is that we might be best exploring the relative power of +X LA races as they should be made with context only to core rules, and not alternate rules and systems given by other books.
While I do realise the SRD has UA available for access by everyone, LA races higher than 0 existed well before it.


What this all returns us to, is the question, what is the balanced baseline worth we can use for a race with LA +1?
Examples given in this thread:

Existing Races with an LA above 0:

Goliath LA +1 : 34 points (8.5 Feats) 26 Points above LA +0
Drow LA +2: ~29 points (approx 7.14 feats) 21 Points above LA +0
Aasimar LA +1: 21 Points (5.25 feats) 13 points above LA +0
Tiefling LA +1: 16 points (4 feats) 8 points above LA +0

Templates:

Dark LA +1: 28 Points (7 feats) This is added to whatever race it is applied to.
Feral LA +1: 82 points (20.5 feats) This is added to whatever race it is applied to.

I repeat my minor protest that using templates for possible baselines for an LA+1 race is inappropriate due to their nature as force multipliers.

[Fitz10019]

Onto the next step; a feat is worth around 3000gp, a given example is the Otyugh Hole from Complete scoundrel giving a feat for the value of 3000gp treasure.
I applaud the overall idea of your analysis, but I have trouble accepting this part. I wouldn't allow this as a DM. I wonder if I am in the minority or not.

It might be better to use the item creation pricing guidelines, for items that grant a feat.

If you look at the Sylvan Scimitar from the DMG, the Cleave feat it grants (without the pre-reqs) is about 13000gp of the item's value.

Sylvan Scimitar = 47,315gp
base item = 15gp
masterwork = 300gp
+3 enhancement and +1d6 damage(untyped) = +4en+ =~ 34,000gp
[I am adjusting the value for being untyped damage, which is more useful than any one elemental type damage, by +2,000gp]
Cleave =~ 13000gp

The MIC's Riding Boots grant Ride-by Attack (again without the pre-reqs) and cost 12,000gp.

A shield with Arrow Deflection is a +2 equiv, so that's worth about 8,000gp.

I realize these examples are not ideal.

The Otyoke Hole does not allow you to ignore pre-reqs, but racial feats do (see every BAB+0 animal that has Weapon Finesse).

Granting a feat that ignores pre-reqs can be ball-parked at about 10,000gp, by this measure, although more examples would be better.

[Malachei]

I would like to point out that I didn't advocate that anyone should, or can buy feats

I didn't understand it that way. In fact, you even gave the exact sources, commented on their possible limitations and conceded that the applicability might be limited.

Still, there's this rule of thumb formula you present that a feat is worth X gold pieces and a gold piece would translate in Y xp. What I wanted to point out:


For the calculation to work out, its starting point has to be generalizable. If buying Iron Will through Otyugh for 3000 gp is taken as the measurement of what a feat might be "worth" in gp, then this would need to apply to all feats. I pointed out why I think the Otyugh example is not generalizable, because it would not apply to the majority of feats, and this strategy of gaining bonus feats would remain the exception.
For converting gp into xp, we'd need a stable conversion rate, and I wanted to show possible issues by showing that XP and WBL do not present a stable conversion rate.


This, along with my comment on how much the availability of LA-Buy-Off matters, is the basis of my message:

It is very hard to accurately transfer game mechanics into formulas, and a lot of aspects need to be fixed beforehand.

IMO, the single most important factor to determine the value of class and racial abilities is the setting, i.e. exact nature of challenges the campaign poses.

There is no such thing as a standard/average campaign, even speaking of official products. If you venture into Red Hand of Doom, completely different class abilities will shine than, lets say, in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

This is exactly the issue with attempts at generalization and formalization and why I don't find the tier system that useful: In one setting, Class/Build A will shine, in another, Class/Build B may shine. As there is no average setting, we're on the theoretical drawing board, and the useful things the system tells is go back to sense-making/general knowledge/common sense, i.e. "in general, full casters > non-casters" and essentially is reduced to a tautology / circular reasoning (e.g. "casters are versatile. Versatility determines power, hence higher versatility equals higher power, hence casters are more powerful").

I'm not saying it is badwrongfun to design class/race feature point-buy systems. I'm just saying that, IMO, in most cases, the effort will be greater than the gain, and the systems will confirm things we already knew. IMO, it will not even reduce discussions, because it will just shift discussions to a meta-level: instead of discussing about the actual class/race and its features, people will discuss about the system and its components.

[One Step Two]

I applaud the overall idea of your analysis, but I have trouble accepting this part. I wouldn't allow this as a DM. I wonder if I am in the minority or not.

It might be better to use the item creation pricing guidelines, for items that grant a feat.

If you look at the Sylvan Scimitar from the DMG, the Cleave feat it grants (without the pre-reqs) is about 13000gp of the item's value.

Sylvan Scimitar = 47,315gp
base item = 15gp
masterwork = 300gp
+3 enhancement and +1d6 damage(untyped) = +4en+ =~ 34,000gp
[I am adjusting the value for being untyped damage, which is more useful than any one elemental type damage, by +2,000gp]
Cleave =~ 13000gp

The MIC's Riding Boots grant Ride-by Attack (again without the pre-reqs) and cost 12,000gp.

A shield with Arrow Deflection is a +2 equiv, so that's worth about 8,000gp.

I realize these examples are not ideal.

The Otyoke Hole does not allow you to ignore pre-reqs, but racial feats do (see every BAB+0 animal that has Weapon Finesse).

Granting a feat that ignores pre-reqs can be ball-parked at about 10,000gp, by this measure, although more examples would be better.

Fair points all, especially since I wasn't considering the fact that racial features ignore pre-requisites. The reason I used the Otyugh hole figure, was because it was something I could easily reference at the time.
Perhaps I was in too much of a rush to get the post out and stated that fact as empyrical, so I accept my fault in that.
Though I would like to point out with Magic item creation, the DMG mentions that when making magical items, it's not uncommon to increase the cost based on usefulness vs it's actual cost given the Forumlas presented in the same book, see here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues) So it may be possible that those items are suffering from a cost bloat due to being granted without prerquisites, but that said 10,000gp is hardly unreasonable.
Given 10,000gp as a measure, and my shonky reasoning in my earlier post, it would mean that LA +1 would be worth around 6 points, or 1 and 1/2 feats in addition to the intial 2.
I'll add more to this shortly.


I didn't understand it that way. In fact, you even gave the exact sources, commented on their possible limitations and conceded that the applicability might be limited.

Still, there's this rule of thumb formula you present that a feat is worth X gold pieces and a gold piece would translate in Y xp. What I wanted to point out:


For the calculation to work out, its starting point has to be generalizable. If buying Iron Will through Otyugh for 3000 gp is taken as the measurement of what a feat might be "worth" in gp, then this would need to apply to all feats. I pointed out why I think the Otyugh example is not generalizable, because it would not apply to the majority of feats, and this strategy of gaining bonus feats would remain the exception.
For converting gp into xp, we'd need a stable conversion rate, and I wanted to show possible issues by showing that XP and WBL do not present a stable conversion rate.


This, along with my comment on how much the availability of LA-Buy-Off matters, is the basis of my message:

It is very hard to accurately transfer game mechanics into formulas, and a lot of aspects need to be fixed beforehand.

IMO, the single most important factor to determine the value of class and racial abilities is the setting, i.e. exact nature of challenges the campaign poses.

There is no such thing as a standard/average campaign, even speaking of official products. If you venture into Red Hand of Doom, completely different class abilities will shine than, lets say, in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, or Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

This is exactly the issue with attempts at generalization and formalization and why I don't find the tier system that useful: In one setting, Class/Build A will shine, in another, Class/Build B may shine. As there is no average setting, we're on the theoretical drawing board, and the useful things the system tells is go back to sense-making/general knowledge/common sense, i.e. "in general, full casters > non-casters" and essentially is reduced to a tautology / circular reasoning (e.g. "casters are versatile. Versatility determines power, hence higher versatility equals higher power, hence casters are more powerful").

I'm not saying it is badwrongfun to design class/race feature point-buy systems. I'm just saying that, IMO, in most cases, the effort will be greater than the gain, and the systems will confirm things we already knew. IMO, it will not even reduce discussions, because it will just shift discussions to a meta-level: instead of discussing about the actual class/race and its features, people will discuss about the system and its components.

As I mentioned before, my haste in trying to hash out a formula has obviously caused more issue than I intended, both in the sense of the Otyugh Hole being hardly the most worthy benchmark for a feats value, and yes, the conversion of xp to gp given the comparison of XP vs WBL.
I actually realised well after the post that the better comparison to use would be to weigh the cost of delaying class features due to experience loss, either through the LA increase to ECL, or the sacrafice needed for LA buyoff.
But that's getting into a whole entirely different facet of game design, and more effort than anyone should spend.

And as I said, you're right when it comes to the considerations of the LA vs it's buy off for its worth, not to mention campaign/setting relevance. However, I was trying to sum it up in a vaccuum for the purpose of a guide for what we can offer up as a reasonable expectaion of power for an LA +1 race in the context of this thread.
I can hardly argue for the intent of the original poster, but such efforts are to the effect of attempting to create an even keel, and some people indeed enjoy doing so, as well as to test their own skills of game design.

And I think I'm veering offtopic... anyway, back to what I was mentioning in regards to the cost of feats, I was mentioning in regards to Fitz's post.

Well, it has less to do with the 10,000gp cost, but more how poorly my formula fails under anything other than what I presented. I realised shortly after that trying to do the same thing with an LA +2 made for a much larger expoential increase of what an LA +2 race brought to the table in terms of strength. In order to get a forumla which gives us proper read on what it might potentially be would be more of an effort than I am willing to commit, I already have 2 jobs thank you :smallwink:

A breif pause here to just mention about worthiness of feats over all, this system of point allocation for races doesn't determine the worth of a feat in the grand scheme of things, just how class features rate in regards to being considered a feat.


So, scrapping my forumla out of hand, my question to all is:
Would it be reasonable to say that, in the context of this thread, that an LA +1 would sit somewhere within the 24-32 point mark? Given that our absolute baseline is 8 points, this represents the LA +1, this equates to 4 to 6 additional feats to the base 2.

[Malachei]

Understood. I'd look at it from a different angle, from opportunity costs (and for a brief moment, let's assume LA-Buy-Off not in place):

Assuming you're a full caster, for LA+1 you give up the two most valuable things: a level of spellcasting progression and a level of caster level. What would be worth doing so? Perhaps improving your spellcasting attribute by +4? When looking at losing a level, HD hurts a bit, but you're not really interested in BAB, and not getting so much from Saves progression. You're looking at what is your core value (spellcasting), and what you get for sacrificing it. Because spellcasting is so valuable, and scales so well, it takes so much so convince somebody to take LA and bear the opportunity cost of not getting spellcaster progression and caster level advancement.

Assuming you're a melee character, for LA+1 you probably give up a lot less, because you don't scale so heavily. Still, you're losing +1 BAB, 1 HD, Saves, and perhaps a feat or a class feature.

I think the following quote nicely illustrates what I'm pointing at:


Well, for a pure melee character, a template is worthwhile when:

1) Your Attack bonus with the template is >= your attack bonus without the template.
2) Your HP with the template is >= your HP without the template.
3) Your damage with the template is >= your damage without the template.
4) Your AC with the template is >= your AC without the template.

For a Fighter with a pre-template Con of 18, that's after level 10 for the Draconic template.

Of course, there might be trade-offs. For a melee build, if you give me +6 STR, I'd bite into losing the HD, etc.

[Larkas]

Just had a quick break, so I'll just make some minor points.


I repeat my minor protest that using templates for possible baselines for an LA+1 race is inappropriate due to their nature as force multipliers.

Agreed. Even though minor or reasonable templates can be measured with some degree of confidence, it all crumbles when you take something as simple as a template that messes with the base race's ability score. Take the Feral template, for example: if you apply it to an orc, the resulting creature would have 30 points sunk only on Str, arguably more. If you apply it to a halfling, though, the resulting creature would have a mere 12 points on the same ability score. And we're only analysing a single ability here! We can't even confidently measure the resulting Str value, you don't have ANY LA +1 race, IIRC, that could potentially have +8 to any stat. So let's stick to races for now.


So, scrapping my forumla out of hand, my question to all is:
Would it be reasonable to say that, in the context of this thread, that an LA +1 would sit somewhere within the 24-32 point mark? Given that our absolute baseline is 8 points, this represents the LA +1, this equates to 4 to 6 additional feats to the base 2.

I would argue that we would sit closer to the 32 than to the 24 points mark, if we're going for an "ideal" race. I'd say something between 32 and 36, but I may have overestimated the Goliath a little bit, so let's be conservative here.

[Malachei]

The Feral Template is an outlier. Many consider it extremely underpriced.

Why can't we compare Tieflings, as a LA+1 race, with Lesser Tieflings, as a LA+0 racial variant, with WOTC racial classes (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a)?

Probably, Lesser Tieflings do not lose enough to justify the LA+0, but in general, if we want to break down LA into its elements, comparing its breakdown would be interesting. The breakdown of racial classes might help, no?

[FMArthur]

If you're looking for more to consider, I'd take a look at Feral and Mineral Warrior. Both might be a bit too powerful. Dvati is another interesting example, although pricing that would be a major pain. Ditto on Diopsid.

Dvati basically cannot be priced. It's 99% superior to everything on a lot of builds and considerably less than that on others (or if you throw in a restriction that they only ever get one set of actions to do anything, 100% inferior to everything on all builds).

[Larkas]

Actually, I did that for the Drow to see what exactly weighs on it's LA. Here is what I found:


Drow

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution. [8 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Immunity to magic sleep effects. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects. [1 point]

+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and SLAs. [2 points] -- Ad-hoc +1 due to the broadness.

Darkvision 120'. [3 points] -- Ad-hoc +1 due to the increased range.

Weapon Proficiency. [1 point]

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot. Automatic search within 5' of hidden door. [2 point]

SR equal to 11 + class levels. [6 points]

SLAs. [5 points] -- Ad-hoc +1 due to being spells other than cantrips.

Light Blindness. [-2 point] -- Ad-hoc -1 due to the first round blindness.

TOTAL: 28 points.


Lesser Drow

+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution. [-2 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Immunity to magic sleep effects. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects. [1 point]

+2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and SLAs. [2 points]

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

Weapon Proficiency. [1 point]

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot. Automatic search within 5' of hidden door. [2 point]

SLAs. [3 points]

Light Blindness. [-2 point]

TOTAL: 9 points.


Savage Progression Drow

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution. [0 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Immunity to magic sleep effects. [2 points]

***+2 racial bonus on saves against enchantment spells or effects. [1 point]

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

Weapon Proficiency. [1 point]

+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot. Automatic search within 5' of hidden door. [2 points]

SLA: 1/day-dancing lights. [1 point]

Light Blindness. [-2 points]

TOTAL: 7 points.

The Lesser Drow is actually quite balanced for a LA +0 race, and the breakdown of the "Greater" Drow shows that it is indeed severely overpriced at LA +2. The Savage Progression Drow is a bit weak for a LA +0.

Please note the ***. The SP Drow doesn't list that ability in its breakdown at all, though it is a shared feature of all elves. If this means that the +2 to Will supersedes the +2 vs. Enchantment instead of stacking (which makes sense, since the Will bonus is a broader bonus of the same type as the one vs. Enchantments), then both the Lesser and "Greater" Drow should have their point total reduced by 1, since they have an ability that effectively do nothing. This leaves the Lesser even more "spot on" for a LA +0. As for the SP Drow, I think that should be added at lvl 0 anyways, as it is a trait shared by all elves that is later "upgraded", but this is certainly not RAW, just a suggestion.

Hmmmm, interesting. I'll do that with the Aasimar too.

[Urpriest]

Actually, if you want to make this rigorous, why not compare LA +1 to a class level? What happens when you put a level of Beguiler or Swordsage into your feat points system?

[Larkas]

Here is the Aasimar broken down:


Aasimar

+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. [8 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Outsider. [4 points] -- Immunity to effects targeting humanoids, ad-hoc +2 due to utility.

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen. [1 point]

Spell-Like Ability: 1/day—daylight. [2 points]

Elemental Resistance: acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5. [4 points] -- cold resistance is worth 2 points, acid/electricity resistance is worth 1 each.

TOTAL: 21 points.


Lesser Aasimar

+2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. [8 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Planetouched subtype. [-1 points] -- Minor weakness. Banishment works on extraplanar creatures by sending them back to their home plane; planetouched are native to the Material Plane, so they ARE home already 90% of the time. If on other planes, humanoids native to the Material would also be valid targets for banishment.

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen. [1 point]

Spell-Like Ability: 1/day—daylight. [2 points]

Elemental Resistance: acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5. [4 points]

TOTAL: 16 points.


Savage Progression Aasimar

+2 Charisma. [2 points]

Medium. [0 points]

Speed: 30 ft. [0 points]

Outsider. [4 points] -- Immunity to effects targeting humanoids, ad-hoc +2 due to utility.

Darkvision 60'. [2 points]

+2 racial bonus on Spot and Listen. [1 point]

Spell-Like Ability: 1/day—light. [1 points]

Elemental Resistance: acid 2, cold 2, electricity 2. [2 points] -- Half as good as the original.

TOTAL: 12 points.

The regular Aasimar is somewhat weak as a LA +1 race, though much too powerful to be available at LA +0. Both proposed fixes for bringing the Aasimar to LA +0 fall short of actually making a balanced race. Strangely, the Savage Progression fix actually comes closer to making it balanced, but it still is 1 "feat worth" higher than it should be.

On a tangent, do you think I am overpricing types other than Humanoid too severely? It IS a very strong boon, Advespa is open to Outsiders via Alter Self, after all, as is Gargoyle to Monstrous Humanoid (you could probably find better options here as well), but it is of use "only" to casters, after all.


Actually, if you want to make this rigorous, why not compare LA +1 to a class level? What happens when you put a level of Beguiler or Swordsage into your feat points system?

It certainly could be done, but to be honest, I'd need help to price things such as BAB, Saves, spells per day and knows, etc.

PS: On another tangent, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244151) might be interesting. If you sum up Human and Aasimar, you have a race that's almost worth LA +1.

[Malachei]

It certainly could be done, but to be honest, I'd need help to price things such as BAB, Saves, spells per day and knows, etc.

But this is exactly the opportunity cost which I meant in my above post. The moment you decide for a LA+1 race or template, you decide against a class level.

What you give up by not taking a class level is a relevant indicator of exactly how good LA+1 races/templates need to be to make them balance. Good for one build, of course, does not imply good for another, but we've already talked about this.

[Larkas]

But this is exactly the opportunity cost which I meant in my above post. The moment you decide for a LA+1 race or template, you decide against a class level.

What you give up by not taking a class level is a relevant indicator of exactly how good LA+1 races/templates need to be to make them balance. Good for one build, of course, does not imply good for another, but we've already talked about this.

Ah, sorry, you posted that as I was writing the following reply, so I missed it completely.

It is pretty much as you said, but it still would need to be put into numbers. And HD, be it d4 or d12, is worth much more than a +2 investment in Con, for example; the average class won't have and increase in BAB at first level, so a +2 Str bonus would be balanced against the increase in BAB, with the drawback of delayed iterative attacks; the average class will have a +2 in two, or most probably 1, in a BSB, which again is worth more than an increase in any save stat; at 1st level, you will be gaining 2 or 3 class features, not counting weapon proficiencies and spells, which would be worth more than 12 points; spells almost can't be valued, as can't manifestations, maneuvers and anything to that effect; an average of 4 skill points would be worth localized bonus to stats.

As can probably be gauged by that, a class level is worth A LOT. I'd say 6 feats, or 24 points, might be a good approximation, but I can't really be sure without values properly assigned to class HD features, and with class's power levels varying so wildly, I don't think that is even feasible, though taking a sample from Tier 3 classes might be the way to go.



I'll ask you guys to help me with three mental exercises then.

1 - Suppose you could take a free feat in exchange for a single RHD. Would that make you take that RHD?


1.1 - What if you could take a feat and a +2 racial bonus to any two skills (or a +4 racial bonus to any one skill)?


1.2 - What if you could take two feats?

2 - Suppose you could take six feats, and only six feats, in exchange for LA +1. Would that make you take that LA +1?

3 - You are in a game where LA buyback is not allowed. In addition to the regular PHB and MM LA +0 races (check the first post if you want my take at fixed races), you can choose the Goliath and the following fixed versions of the Aasimar, Tiefling and Drow for LA +1. Would you select the latter races for any build?

Aasimar

- +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.

- Medium.

- Base land speed is 30 feet.

- 1 extra feat at 1st level.

- 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.

- Darkvision 60'.

- +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.

- +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.

- Spell-like Ability: 1/day-daylight.

- Resistance to acid 5, cold 5, and electricity 5.

Tiefling

- +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence.

- Medium.

- Base land speed is 30 feet.

- 1 extra feat at 1st level.

- 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.

- Darkvision 60'.

- +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide and Move Silently checks.

- Spell-like Ability: 1/day-darkness.

- Resistance to cold 5, electricity 5, and fire 5.

Drow

- +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.

- Medium.

- Speed: 30 ft.

- Immunity to magic sleep effects.

- +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and SLAs.

- Darkvision 120'.

- Weapon Proficiency.

- +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot. Automatic search within 5' of hidden door.

- SR equal to 6 + class levels.

- Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day-dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. [5 points]

- Light Blindness.

- Elven Magic: +2 racial bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.


3.1 - What if LA buyback was allowed?

These fixes are balanced by point against the Goliath (only one point beneath it). The Aasimar had a minor buff and was applied as a template to a Human, as was the Tiefling, though it needed a little more work. The Drow was done away with the Con penalty, given a reduced SR and virtual racial Spell Penetration, and was made available at LA +1, of course.

This is important to gauge just how powerful the Goliath (and similarly balanced races) is. And I recognize the "6 feats for a LA +1" is a suboptimal exercise, since you could do much more with those than with a LA +1 race due to optimization. The first exercise, is pretty much a benchmark: a RHD gives everything a class level gives BUT class features. Keep in mind you can still get one level in any class after that, though, so you shouldn't get as much from this RHD as you would get with a class HD.

[Malachei]

1) No, unless we're talking obscure feats you don't normally get or skipping prerequisites, both of which I'd advise against

1.1) No. Small boost don't matter. D&D is a scaling system. One big boost is far more important than spreading a lot of small benefits.

2) Yes, as a caster, if I have a cheap method of applying metamgic, such as Incantatrix or UM, I'd heavily shop for metamagic feats: Quicken Spell, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Twin Spell, and a few others.

Also, as a TWF Swordsage or other feat-starved character, I'd go shopping for things I cannot acquire because I have spent all my feat slots for Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, EWP Spiked Chain, Shadow Blade, etc. ;)

It varies, though. As a fighter, you get a feat every other level, and then there are classes that are not so dependent on feats.

My point is that it depends on your build. A caster would not miss the BAB from his lost level, but his spellcasting progression. He'd be hurt by a loss in HD, but less than a melee build. A melee build would miss BAB and HD.

Obviously, a race/template will appeal to certain classes/builds. I've always disliked that -2 CHA pretty much means nobody who rolls a Sorcerer will be a Tiefling -- and you're not likely to see half-orc wizards.

In case of a race/template that enhances a casting stat, the question is: How much enhancement would you need to accept losing one level of spellcasting progression. It hurts a full caster so much that you can basically forget about all the other goodies (resistances, a number of low-level SLAs) -- he'll take it if it boost his DC so heavily it seems significant, i.e. +4 or more to his spellcasting attribute.

For a melee type, a race/template would need to compensate for BAB (not only reducing to hit, also taking certain feats later, etc.) and HD. This would mean boosting STR and CON. CON, until high levels, would not offset the HD loss, but compensate somewhat, STR could almost offset BAB loss. Again, +4 in at least one of the stats, and +2 or more in the other would be interesting.

3) The above, and no, I'd not take any of these races except for flavor reasons.

And:

Flavor reasons rule.

[Larkas]

Just an addition to the first exercise:


1.2 - What if you could take two feats?

And I understand that flavor is important, but please, ignore it for this exercise :smallfrown: By it's very nature, it should be clear that I'm trying to gauge mechanic benefits, flavor notwithstanding...

[Malachei]

Just an addition to the first exercise:


1.2 - What if you could take two feats?

And I understand that flavor is important, but please, ignore it for this exercise :smallfrown: By it's very nature, it should be clear that I'm trying to gauge mechanic benefits, flavor notwithstanding...

Yes, but we have to say it, otherwise it might get forgotten on these forums. This is a good day, and I feel like saying it again, so you'll have to forgive me for saying it again: Flavor reasons rule.

Now back to your question: Two feats is actually nice on top of a racial HD -- skills list: I guess Able Learner could apply. Which racial HD are you basing this off... free choice? Could we assume this to be a HD of Outsider, for instance? All good saves, good BAB, 8 skill points, plus two feats? Sign me up. Unless I'm a full caster.

[Larkas]

Yes, but we have to say it, otherwise it might get forgotten on these forums. This is a good day, and I feel like saying it again, so you'll have to forgive me for saying it again: Flavor reasons rule.

Oh, you're entirely correct. Though people can always find a flavorful reason to play a Dragonborn Water Orc Spirit Lion Totem Wolf Totem Barbarian, I find it hard to know a reason for them to even exist. This is not the purpose of this thread, however, as it must approach the subject in the most theoretical way possible.


Now back to your question: Two feats is actually nice on top of a racial HD -- skills list: I guess Able Learner could apply. Which racial HD are you basing this off... free choice? Could we assume this to be a HD of Outsider, for instance? All good saves, good BAB, 8 skill points, plus two feats? Sign me up. Unless I'm a full caster.

Ideally yes, you could take any RHD here, even Outsider or Dragon. But to have a more general view, it would be better to consider other RHD as well, such as Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast, Aberration, and even Animal. I think 2 feats might be close to the balance point then, though I still tend towards 1 1/2 (a feat and +2 to two skills or +4 to one skill). The right mindset is to see this through the eyes of a regular player, not a hardcore optimizer.

[Malachei]

Defining the "regular" player seems difficult and prone to different perspectives. I'd rather work with the best racial HD, the worst, and something in the middle for scenarios.

[Larkas]

Defining the "regular" player seems difficult and prone to different perspectives. I'd rather work with the best racial HD, the worst, and something in the middle for scenarios.

That works too.