Excuse My Silliness but...is a rogue or ninja higher tier?

[Empedocles]

I have nothing to add to the title, except that I'm talking about the CA ninja, not the Rokugan one.

[Flickerdart]

Rogue is higher tier. The Ninja's Sudden Strike is worse, its skills are worse, its class abilities are worse, and it has far less exclusive feats and ACFs.

[Kazyan]

Quick, think of something you can do with a ninja that you can't do with a rogue.

Stuck, aren't you?

[Empedocles]

I hope your being sarcastic...

isn't the ninja significantly stronger if you let sudden strike apply when he's invisible?

[deuxhero]

Suck?

No wait, that happens to both if limited in material and against undead, constructs, plants or oozes...

Uh...

[Lateral]

I hope your being sarcastic...

isn't the ninja significantly stronger if you let sudden strike apply when he's invisible?

You can apply sudden strike when you're invisible.

How long per day can you be invisible, again?

I'll tell you. 1/2 class level + Wis rounds per day. Even if you put your top stat into WIS, and you end up with, say, a 20 WIS at 10th level, that's... ten rounds. Seriously, ten rounds.

[Answerer]

The Complete Adventurer Ninja offers almost nothing by way of significant class features. A 2-level dip for the AC Bonus, having precision damage for prereqs, and a few rounds of Invisibility is not a great trade, but could potentially be worth it. A ranged character may not care about Sudden Strike's weaknesses, for example, and so it might be better than a level of Rogue and a level of something else. Though when you consider what that "something else" might be... I mean, a Rogue 1/Cleric 1 gains way, way, way more than a Ninja 2, for example, and will qualify you for almost anything the Ninja 2 would have.

After level 2, you gain very, very little, and none of it quickly.

[Empedocles]

That's unfortunate. I thought it was a fairly well designed, if low powered class.

[Soranar]

Basically, everything a ninja can do with it's abilities, a rogue can do through UMD.

Oh an a rogue gets to use flanking, Alternate class features and subsitution levels which a ninja doesn't have access to.

The only setting in which a ninja is stronger is if you're using vow of poverty

[Righteous Doggy]

Monk and swordsage both get the wisdom to AC too...

Personally, if I want a ninja I go looking through shadowhand from ToB.

[ericgrau]

Quickened greater invisibility for more rounds than you need to fight with. Usually you need 3 rounds before there's only cleanup left in the fight.

A rogue is supposed to be a higher tier due to spell access through UMD, but in a typical setting where UMD plays no role or a small role I'd say the ninja fights better. Especially pre level 15 when a lot of campaigns end around 15 anyway. The melee rogue is a d6 death trap until high levels and the ranged rogue lacks a good sneak attack trigger until high levels. At level 7+ the mage might blow a turn on greater invisibility to get the rogue safe (no longer a death trap) and sneak attacking (even at range) for about 2 rounds before there are so few foes left it doesn't matter anymore. A swift action source of greater invisibility is way better.

Even a higher optimized UMD rogue only gets a wand of swift invisibility which is only good for one sneak attack per round and prevents him from holding a weapon in that hand (even quick draw does not provide quick sheathe). Quickened greater invisibility is way out of his price range even if only used 1/day for a few rounds. So if the UMD rogue is higher tier it isn't from damage, it's from general spell access.

[Lateral]

Quickened greater invisibility for more rounds than you need to fight with. Usually you need 3 rounds before there's only cleanup left in the fight.

:smallconfused:

You must play pretty differently than I do, 'cause when I play we usually aren't mopping up until round 5.

[ericgrau]

I'm going by the average 5 round fight in which 4 and 5 are usually cleanup. Even so if your DM sets up longer fights then you need 5 rounds of ghost step. 4 if you win initiative and so sudden strike without it.

Some fights can go 2-3 rounds if it's open terrain and your group uses a lot of boom rather than hampering foes with things like debuffs. For that matter doing big damage in rounds 1 and 2 such as a ranged ninja with rapid shot and ghost step is a great way to shorten a fight.

A DM might lengthen a fight by adding more foes part way through.

[eggs]

A Wand of Blink is well within level 8 WBL. It replicates almost all of the Ninja's Ki abilities on its own.

Add the increased reliability of sneak attack (flanking capability, Penetrating Strike), the Rogue's much improved skills (UMD, social skill access, UMD, more skill points, UMD), more widely applicable class abilities (Uncanny Dodge, Crippling Strike, Ranger HiPS/Camoflage, Skill Mastery), and Rogue really comes out ahead.

Ninja's still not an unplayable class, but it's very limited. It just really relies on dipping Monk or using other characters to generate sudden strikes for it (by Blinding/Grappling/Greasing opponents or Greater Invisibility/Blinking), and it doesn't have a whole lot to contribute when the party isn't trying to infiltrate anything.

[Answerer]

Even if you want to argue that Ghost Step+Sudden Strike is better than Sneak Attack, there's still basically-nothing to Ninja 3+. A Ninja 2/Rogue 18 >> Ninja 20.

[ericgrau]

Depending on how many uses/day of ghost step you need a ninja dip instead of full ninja does makes sense. I might take it to 3 simply for the BAB & damage. Beyond that you get much less ya. That doesn't make ninja totally useless it makes him front-loaded. A rogue that dips ninja is often way better off than a straight rogue.

A wand of blink OTOH still eats a turn to activate and negates 20% of your own attacks. A wand of greater invis doesn't negate any of your attacks but still eats a turn. What you really want is a ring of blinking so you can keep it up all day long without wasting a turn on it. While technically you might blow 100% of your WBL on it at level 8, practically speaking you're unlikely to have it before level 13.

[Elfinor]

It's well designed in the sense that it gets (mostly) synergistic class features at every level, I suppose.

I've never had both 'pure' classes in the same party, but I think CA Ninjas usually make better ranged attackers than (non-Halfling) Rogues at low-mid levels, thanks mostly to Ghost Step. Aside from that, there isn't a broad role (Face, Skillmonkey etc.) that CA Ninjas can really do better than Rogues.

The Ninja's ability set is unique enough that it's more effective at filling certain character concepts than a pure Rogue, but these concepts can, more often than not, be more effectively accomplished with another class or multiclassing. A notable concept that only CA and Rokugan Ninja can fill is having 'Ninja' on your character sheet from Level 1:smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

Rokugan Ninja might be better than a Rogue. CAd Ninja, not so much.

[LansXero]

What about PF Ninja?

[Killer Angel]

Quick, think of something you can do with a ninja that you can't do with a rogue.


On forums you can be ninja'd, but you can't be rogue'd. :smalltongue:

[Khedrac]

Also most of the above relies on Ghost Step granting Improved invisibility.

When I played a Ninja neither I nor the DM read it that way - it grants Invisibility for one round - so that lets you get 1 Sudden Strike in (if your opponent does not have Uncanny Dodge) but iterative attacks are made when visible. This makes a ninja a whole lot worse - and is what the rules actually say.

[Airanath]

On forums you can be swordsaged, but you can't be rogue'd. :smalltongue:

Let me help you there. They are better ninjas than the ninja anyway, class features and skill monkey wise As for.Cadv ninja... its crying over at that corner and sad. PF ninja is a reasonable substitution, provided you don't have to find traps(or if your dm finds trapfinding as dumb as track for a class feature, and allows anyone to find them, trapfinding just being a skill bonus to it).

[sonofzeal]

I seem to remember that Dungeon Magazine has a Ninja variant that had Solid Fog as an alternate Ki power. This does bump the Ninja up a bit, as Solid Fog is rather expensive to UMD, to put it mildly.

[Answerer]

Also most of the above relies on Ghost Step granting Improved invisibility.

When I played a Ninja neither I nor the DM read it that way - it grants Invisibility for one round - so that lets you get 1 Sudden Strike in (if your opponent does not have Uncanny Dodge) but iterative attacks are made when visible. This makes a ninja a whole lot worse - and is what the rules actually say.
It does not say that.

It says that you "become invisible." There is no reference to any spell: not invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm), not greater invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm), nor any other spell. Wizards always uses italics for spell names, and the name of the spell, in any case, is invisibility, not "invisible." "Invisible" is a status condition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible) and a special ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility). Invisibility, the spell, makes you invisible, the status condition/special quality, but puts some caveats on it. The status condition does not have those caveats as a general thing, and Ghost Step simply makes you invisible, with no reference to the spell invisibility which has its own rules.

In other words, unless the ability specifically says "as invisibility" (or some other reference to the spell), it does not have invisibility's restrictions.

[Ranting Fool]

While I've often been told that Rogues just get better stuff... Ninjas are just cooler!:smallcool:

Think about it.

Would you rather play a rogue.

Or would you rather play a Ninja.

Without looking at any stats or info on the class Ninja is just cooler :smallbiggrin::smallyuk::smallcool:

[Answerer]

Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

The class name on your character sheet is meaningless.

[Zubrowka74]

Any of you old enough to remember the original Oriental Adventures ? The Ninja had to take a second class to hide the fact that he was a ninja.

Nnnnnnnninjah !

[Elfinor]

Obligatory link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

The class name on your character sheet is meaningless. In a very serious, deep-end roleplaying game and/or from a purely mathematical perspective, sure. But, in the less serious games, people really do get a kick out of 'imma NINJA!'. The class isn't bad enough to dull the insane enthusiasm some players have for it. Try getting that much enthusiasm from a Rogue player:smalltongue: So long as things don't get too disruptive (like in one of the aforementioned subgenres), there's really no reason to tell them off for bad roleplaying - fun is fun.

[Answerer]

Why not just take Swordsage, and still shout "imma NINJA". Because you are, plus you're actually good at being one, unlike the CAdv. Ninja.

[Ranting Fool]

Any of you old enough to remember the original Oriental Adventures ? The Ninja had to take a second class to hide the fact that he was a ninja.

Nnnnnnnninjah !

see now that is awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Essence_of_War]

Why not just take Swordsage, and still shout "imma NINJA". Because you are, plus you're actually good at being one, unlike the CAdv. Ninja.

This.

My Warblades and some of my factotums call themselves Samurai, and my Crusaders often call themselves Paladins, as do my favored souls and my clerics.

The thing on the character sheet need not define the fluff of how your character thinks about themself.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Rogue is much more powerful.

In PF, since someone asked, Ninja is > than Rogue, but ALL other classes except monk are >>>> Ninja and Rogue.

RE: Solid Fog
Good luck sneak attacking in it.

A few crappy rounds of invis is pitiful. A rogue can just get a ring of blinking and sneak attack on every attack. Ninja is decent as an NPC class to blow its whole load in one encounter, but it's abysmal as a PC class.

Swordsage is much better of course. When I want to play a "ninja" I make a swordsage of some sort.

[Giegue]

If I want to play a "Ninja" I play Naruto d20, though I don't think that's quite what you want "ninja" wise. Anyway, the basic rogue is a solid tier 4. However, the psi-rogue, which is a variant of the rogue with access to some psionic power and related abilities is very much a tier 3.

[Elfinor]

Why not just take Swordsage, and still shout "imma NINJA". Because you are, plus you're actually good at being one, unlike the CAdv. Ninja. Because it's what the player requests. Sometimes players want help with realizing their ninja-esque concepts: I've suggested Swordsages (among other things), and there have been dips, but they (or, more often, 'he':smalltongue:) usually requests help with a build specifically based off the Ninja base class. I give the stamp of approval to all builds that don't go game breaky or obviously/frequently step on someone else's toes. Our games aren't super-serious, he neither wants nor needs a lecture on game balance. I'm not going to tell him how to have fun, so long as he's not ruining someone else's day. His hardcore Ninja enthusiasm usually helps everyone's immersion, if anything.

Unobtrusive use of DM magic on encounters, challenges and items minimizes the balance issues that arise - not that unexpected hiccups haven't occurred one way or another. It doesn't take much extra work for the usual low-mid op game.

tl;dr: Sometimes players care about what's on the character sheet, it's OK if it doesn't hurt anybody.

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth, I have a fixed homebrew Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186505) that I'm fairly proud of. But in general, I agree with the general consensus that Ninja is worse then Rogue. I'd also add that Rogue tends to be worse then most other Skill Monkeys, including Psychic Rogue, Factotum, Bard, or Incarnate.

[Elfinor]

And speaking of Homebrew Ninja...
-snip- Swordsage is much better of course. When I want to play a "ninja" I make a swordsage of some sort. Didn't you make a ToB homebrew Ninja with a hefty speed boost a while back? Or am I misremembering?

[Righteous Doggy]

While I've often been told that Rogues just get better stuff... Ninjas are just cooler!:smallcool:

Think about it.

Would you rather play a rogue.

Or would you rather play a Ninja.

Without looking at any stats or info on the class Ninja is just cooler :smallbiggrin::smallyuk::smallcool:

I'd rather... play a rogue and call it a ninja!:smalltongue: or a swordsage called a ninja disguised as a rogue... they'd never see that coming!

[StreamOfTheSky]

And speaking of Homebrew Ninja... Didn't you make a ToB homebrew Ninja with a hefty speed boost a while back? Or am I misremembering?

Yes, thank you for remembering! Used Swordsage as the base chasis I built off of. I used it in play in a gestalt game w/ Cloistered Cleric/Shadowcraft Mage on the other side. Worked fine for me.

http://torchofspirit.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=rulesinfo&thread=5&page=1#15