Gish/melee options

[GraakosGraakos]

Okay, so in a party of lvl 1s, playing to 20 over the summer. We have a rogue skillmonkey, a Cleric Radiant Servant of Pelor (he ENJOYS heal-buffing), and a Dread Necromancer. Hilarity will ensue alignment wise, I'm sure. What I'm sure you can see that we're missing is a melee focused character. I can't decide what to do, but wqs thinking of going the Sorcadin-Abj Champ route (Paladin 4-Sorc 2-Abi Champ 5 IIRC) and would trade my mount for the spirit class feature, but was looking for other options.

Does anyone have experience using a barbarian instead of Paladin (I get it's strictly better, but flavor wise it makes more sense to me)?

My other option is to go to the dark side for Hexblade(with the WoTC suggested fixes)-Sorc-Abj Champ, for a gish.

I have a hard time deciding because, honestly, the idea of sword+boarding as a fighter or something is terrifyingly boring to me.

[Urpriest]

Barbarian isn't that great for gishes, since you can't cast spells in a rage. Also, I'd advise editing the word tank out of your post because half the posters after me will obsess over it and feel compelled to explain to you that tanks don't exist in 3.5, when in this case you only mean melee character.

[hivedragon]

How about Rage Mage (complete Warrior)?

[gallagher]

if you want to do Melee, but arent into sword and board/other boring options, try out the tome of battle. in there, you will find both the warblade and the crusader, which are as good as melee gets

[INoKnowNames]

*sniped* Also, I'd advise editing the word tank out of your post because half the posters after me will obsess over it and feel compelled to explain to you that tanks don't exist in 3.5, when in this case you only mean melee character.


if you want to do Melee, but arent into sword and board/other boring options, try out the tome of battle. in there, you will find both the warblade and the crusader, which are as good as melee gets

I can not emphasise both of these posts enough. I really can't.

I am one of many who advocate the Tome of Battle. Warblade the most, but all 3 of the base classes within are very good. Make sure to ask if you can get that TOB Goodness, and if you can, take it and never look back!

And yeah, the "conversations" for lack of a better word over what a tank is get.... rather ugly.

[CheeseMerchant]

Part of the problem is that "tank" can mean a bunch of different things. For example it could indicate a melee based battlefield controller. It could also indicate a melee based character who has optimized survivability over everything else (a non-optimal option, but to each their own). It could also mean a melee based character that poses such an overwhelming offensive threat that the enemy is forced to deal with him.

So which of these is the "tank" you are looking for?

(Also, I note that you wanted to go with a gish build. You might have better success by opening up your options to other possibilities.)

[GraakosGraakos]

It would be the "attack me not them" variety, but I see that it's an imprecise term.

[Averis Vol]

if you want a good gish i'm partial to Stalwart Battle sorcerer 6/ Swiftblade 9-10 (depends on your preferences), you lose out on quite a bit of casting but you make up for that by the increased action economy that class allows for (its on online enhancement so here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) ya go) for the rest of your progression you could finish with abjurant champion to get all of the BaB and abjurant spell goodness.

[Fable Wright]

Alright. Several things here:
1. When making a Gish, the first thing to do is pick a prestige class. Decide whether you want to do Swiftblade, Knight Phantom, Sacred Exorcist (with paladin route) or Jade Phoenix Mage, as those are generally the best. Since you're going to level 20, you're going to need to focus on one of these, using Abjurant Champion to fill out the rest.
2. Pick a base class. This will probably either be a Sorcerer or a Wizard, but you have the option of going Wu Jen or suchlike if you feel like being contrary. In general, Wizards have more options than Sorcerers, but it can be difficult to manage, given that you probably have a ton of different buffs up at one time, unlike the sorcerer, who will likely only have a few. To sum it up:
Wizards: More options, wider variety of buffs, get access to spells faster, and have the ability to change your spell list when you feel like it. Has access to Abrupt Jaunt.
Sorcerers: More spells, when that matters, so you can spam Wraithstrike more than the wizard. You also have some very powerful spells available like Wings of Cover, and the Divine Companion fro Complete Champion.
3. Remember to not lose caster levels when possible. Take only the bare minimum- for example, do NOT get more than two levels of Paladin. Try to get the least number of melee class levels possible. Use whatever means necessary to keep your precious spell slots.

For a tank-y build, Sorcadin would probably work best. You have Wings of Cover, which works well as a panic button against an attack you can't otherwise deal with. You can cast and recast Heart of Earth, unlike the Wizard who will likely cast it once and use it as a panic button. Your saves will be good from Paladin, and you will have the ability to create a ridiculous bonus to armor class from Divine Companion. Basic build would be Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8. You lose only 2 caster levels over the course of the class, which is a major plus, and you still have a fairly good BAB overall. Your HP will be slightly lacking, but Heart of Earth helps make up for that, and your saves will be absolutely insane (through paladin bonuses and Ruin Delver's Fortune). Remember to not use Wings of Cover or Ruin Delver's Fortune all the time, though, as you still want a Swift action on your turn to use Wraithstrike or, potentially, Minor Shapeshift (which is amazing, as HP is very valuable to you).

Also, again, Barbarian is very bad idea. The key class feature, Rage, keeps you from using spellcasting, and the prestige class that combines the two, Rage Mage, gives up far too many caster levels to be useful. If you want more specifics on the build, just ask, and we can probably point you to some good spells/feats/whathaveyou for your character.

[eggs]

Barbarian isn't bad for a 1-2 level dip (Pounce/Improved Grab and Improved Trip/Uncanny Dodge), but Rage doesn't work well. Trading Rage for Ranger favored enemies/archery fighting style is about as good an ACF as is available; if your group smiles on ACF-chaining (totally RAW-illegal), that can actually be a pretty interesting route - you could end up with a 2-level dip for Pounce, Improved Trip, Improved Grab and Favored Enemy: Arcanists (later, add Favored Power Attack), which could make for a very interesting gish.

The Hexblade fixes don't really matter, but Hex 2 is still a pretty workable replacement for Paladin.

The biggest problem with either is that they don't give access to Spellsword, which means actually working for decent filler levels before AbjChamp.

[GraakosGraakos]

Wow, that build is bananas. I honestly don't think it'd work for me, though, because my DM freaks if he smells powergaming even a little. I'd want to focus on boosting my saves and AC, as well as buffs. Straight damage spells aren't nearly as important as survivability (for me, in this campaign).

[Fable Wright]

Wow, that build is bananas. I honestly don't think it'd work for me, though, because my DM freaks if he smells powergaming even a little. I'd want to focus on boosting my saves and AC, as well as buffs. Straight damage spells aren't nearly as important as survivability (for me, in this campaign).

...You're going to have to define powergaming, here. Is Tome of Battle allowed? If so, just play a warblade. It has the options you're looking for, without magic. The problem that you're facing is that Gish builds are inherently powergaming. If you think that it's just the dips that are making the build disallowed, you could replace Spellsword with another melee class level, though doing so forfeits 9th level spells. It's possible to go with Paladin 2/Battle Sorcerer 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 9 (You need to take a prestige class for the last 9 levels to advance casting and melee, and Eldritch Knight don't cut it), but that takes out a lot of your spellcasting. Using Necrotic Cyst with Sorcerer's retraining can help make up for the loss of spells, but your DM may not allow that. Check first. Otherwise, consider a more simple build... Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 10/Abjurant Champion 5 is likely to get allowed because of its sheer simplicity, and it makes a pretty good Gish (losing only one caster level, period, and getting full BAB for 15 levels) all things considered. However, that build lacks a lot of defensive measures that can only really be used in the Sorcadin build. You have a lot lower saves, though you can get Superior Resistance to help, and your AC is low, though Luminous Armor or Greater Mage Armor with Abjurant Champion helps. You can still use Heart of Earth, though likely not as much as you have to prepare the number of them that you're going to use ahead of time. Honestly, though, this build is more of a glass cannon. If you want defensive options, find some way to get one of the Sorcadin options approved.

Also, please note: Most of the 'build' I listed was just spell and feat selection; Wraithstrike, Wings of Cover, Ruin Delver's Fortune, and Heart of Earth are standard spells for Gishing. Also consider Superior Resistance as a later level spell, to make those saves even more stupidly high. Minor Shapeshift is a fairly standard feat for Gishes, along with Power Attack and Arcane Strike.

[Amphetryon]

Binder 2/Sorcerer 8/Anima Mage 10 makes a perfectly serviceable Gish. Binder + Anima Mage are in Tome of Magic.

[ericgrau]

Since you use your spells mostly for buffs a barbarian gish could work just fine. Cast ahead of time, rage after. The only thing you lose are the swift spells, and even those are usable in round 1.

False life is good for temporary HP and can be cast in the morning. If you get a buffing round you might also pop a defensive spell. Magic circle against evil helps a little with saves and AC. Barrier spells like the walls and solid fog protect not only you but the whole party by slowing down the incoming attacks tremendously. Buffs are cast in the morning and the others are good opening spells cast at the very beginning of a fight before you clean up foes with your blade so again you cast and then rage afterwards without any problems.

[Talionis]

I'm fond of Duskblade from PHB2 and Ordained Champion prestige class from Complete Champion. Both let you channel spells into your melee attacks. This helps with your action economy and let's you wade into melee right away and still cast your spells. Both will let you cast other classes spells with their channel abilities.