Hidden Blade

[SirWolf312]

One of my players keeps wanting to use weapons that they haven't made for 4e, at least not in the books i have, usually i can figure out the stats for them just fine but he's asked for a hidden blade (like in assassin's creed) and i have no idea how to make it realistic, fun, and balanced without just making it just a wrist mounted dagger. Help?

[tcrudisi]

I'm not sure what this is, but the fact you mentioned "wrist mounted dagger" makes me want to point out Wrist Razors from Dark Sun Campaign Setting. They take up the arm slot (if magical), give a +3 prof bonus and do 1d4 damage. They are off-hand from the light blade group and are considered to be a simple weapon.

Does this sound a lot like a dagger that goes on your arm? Because it does to me, too.

[SirWolf312]

This is a pic of what i'm talking about http://images.wikia.com/assassinscreed/images/5/5c/AC_Hidden_Bade.jpg

[kieza]

How about this:

Hidden Blade: Exotic One-handed melee weapon
+3 Proficiency, 1d4 damage, High Crit, Stealth Draw
Weapon Group: Light Blade

Stealth Draw: When you attack with this weapon while hidden, or immediately after the first time you draw it in an encounter, you may score a critical strike on a natural roll one lower than normal. (i.e., if you normally crit on a 20, you can now crit on 19+. Using a power which crits on 18-20, of which there are several, you now crit on 17+.)

High Crit comes from it being an exotic weapon; Stealth Draw replaces the fact that it can't be thrown like a dagger. Seems relatively balanced to me.

[SirWolf312]

that does sound good but what about a way to insta-kill lower level targets?

[Tiniere]

that does sound good but what about a way to insta-kill lower level targets?

That's more of a power thing than a weapon thing, If you're a paragon hero, it shouldn't be to tough to wipe out a level 5 minion or standard...

[NecroRebel]

that does sound good but what about a way to insta-kill lower level targets?

Targets eligible to be instantly killed are minions. Done.

Letting the user kill any lower-leveled target in one blow is a terribly bad idea and would make the weapon vastly overpowered. Such an ability would probably be appropriate for a level 50 or so power, taking into account the fact that you cannot possibly get to a level above 30 and level 29 daily powers don't automatically instantly kill on hit.

To be honest, this should probably just be a normal dagger with a magic weapon property that lets it be drawn and sheathed as a free action. I'm not sure if there is such a thing already, but it would probably be a level 1/5/11/16/21/26 thing. Alternatively, make your player take Quick Draw as a feat and call it good.

[SirWolf312]

Yeah the insta-kill is a bad idea now that i think about it.

[Tegu8788]

There are a few ways I could see it working out. Have some requirements, like a stealth or bluff check that passes a hard DC, maybe a grapple check or acrobatics to get into position, and a requirement that the target is below a certain HP level, like 10% of character health, and then make it a daily. I will say I'm not at all well versed in high level powers in the slightest, but with those limiters, it sounds like it could keep the flavor without it becoming overpowered.

But well placed Minions also do the trick.

[INDYSTAR188]

If you do more than a creatures bloodied value on a coup de grace doesn't that instant kill them? So, maybe he sneaks up on someone from the shadows and then gives em the old red smile, if it's a level 5 or lower he might be able to do bloodied value damage to the creature.

[allonym]

Being hidden from someone does not let you coup de grace them. It will grant you combat advantage, certainly, but the only way to be able to perform a coup de grace is if the target is helpless - generally through being unconscious, which is, for obvious reasons, a very difficult status effect to acquire.

To the OP, I'd just point him to the Wrist Razors, as suggested by tcrudisi, as they're easily concealed, enable certain interesting combinations (though enchanting them means you miss out on Iron Armbands of Power...) and a simple and elegant solution - trying to make weapons which can somehow perform an instant kill under certain byzantine conditions would be a nightmare to balance. That's what powers are for. In particular, I always felt that the Executioner Assassin was very much the Assassin's Creed style assassin, with their focus on out-of-combat kill setup and usage of lots of different weapons. A little dull, perhaps, once combat gets going, but you are able to do lots of damage with unexpected attacks. They would also avoid the problem of enchanting wrist razors, because they can get their enhancement bonus and properties from their ki focus.

[SirWolf312]

I'll have to look into the wrist razors before I make a decision. But what if it was an insta-kill if they roll a natural 20, the target is the player's size or one size smaller, and the player is hidden from the target?

[Tegu8788]

Size and HP are two very different things. That's why I suggested some health percentage, essentially a way to wrap up a fight one round quicker, but I'd listen to my betters.THEY KNOW THINGS!

[kieza]

I generally rule that if a creature is completely off their guard, as in, they don't even know anyone hostile is anywhere nearby and have no reason to expect an attack, they're helpless and can thus be coup-de-graced. It gives a party much more incentive to be quiet on their approach.

However, do not pack a bunch of enemies into a tight area with this rule. When I first started doing this, I had a fighter and rogue use their whirlwind-attack-esque powers to take out 80% of an encounter in the first round.

EDIT: Got any more cool weapons to stat out?

[INDYSTAR188]

I generally rule that if a creature is completely off their guard, as in, they don't even know anyone hostile is anywhere nearby and have no reason to expect an attack, they're helpless and can thus be coup-de-graced. It gives a party much more incentive to be quiet on their approach.

However, do not pack a bunch of enemies into a tight area with this rule. When I first started doing this, I had a fighter and rogue use their whirlwind-attack-esque powers to take out 80% of an encounter in the first round.

EDIT: Got any more cool weapons to stat out?

I do this too. It's situational of course and usually they lose surprise after the first kill.