Favorite Unarmed Swordsage build

[Rickshaw]

Just what it says on the package: I'm curious about everyone's favorite unarmed swordsage builds. I wanna see how cool it can get (since I'm new to this whole "optimizing" thing.) I'd prefer to stay away from being a full spellcaster or whatever, but a little bit for flavor sounds cool.

or even just what the "standard" build is thought of. that would be nice too.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Straight Unarmed Swordsage 20 is pretty cool, focus on Dex, con Wis str (no less than 10) and get weapon finesse, shadow blade, possibly Snap kick and go to town.

[Talionis]

I always thought that you were supposed to go Intuitive Strike from Book of Exalted Deeds, that lets you use wisdom to hit for simple and unarmed weapons. That makes you a lot less MAD, and then you can use the next best stat be Constitution.

[Soranar]

Intuitive strike vs Shadow blade + weapon finesse

Intuitive strike lets you get Wis to hit and swordsage lets you get Wis to damage with maneuvers

pros 1 less feat
con only works per strike, which means you don't get Wisdom to damage on iteratives

Shadow blade + weapon finesse

pros

works on iteratives
Wisdom can still be added on strikes

cons

requires you stay in a shadow hand stance
requires more feats

Considering shadow hand stances are quite strong, I'd stick to them anyway so yeah, shadow blade seems like a far superior choice than intuitive strike

[DrMike105]

I prefer Swordsage 16 / any full BAB 4. That gives you a final BAB of 16, and that all-important 4th iterative attack. For the full BABs, I like Swashbuckler as your first 3. Free Weapon Finesse (necessary, and you are required by law to take Shadow Blade as well), Grace (which you should replace with Arcane Stunt from Comp. Mage), and Insightful Strike (Int to damage. I like having a high int for skill points, and this is some nice synergy). Your 4th full BAB class can be anything except Swashbuckler, like...umm...Orc Paragon!

[sonofzeal]

...and that all-important 4th iterative attack.
I've never understood that. You don't always get full-attacks, especially if you're a Martial Adept with tones of Strikes, and that 4th attack is at a -15 penalty anyway. Unless you're playing High-Op against Low-Op enemies, that last attack is hardly ever going to hit, since you're already four points of attack bonus behind McHumanFighter. And it only comes in at lvl 20 anyway, when you have far more important things going on. Seems like a waste to make that a major build concern.

[Talionis]

One feat is a big advantage over having to throw away two. You already have to take Adaptive Style to make your recovery mechanic livable.

Plus most of your Manuevers will eat all your iteratives.

I also don't remember Intuitive Strike not working on iteratives, but I'm away from the book right now.

[Saintheart]

BoED says for Intuitive Strike that WIS replaces STR on attack rolls only.

Shadow Blade benefits from an interesting equivocation: though the table in Bo9S says you replace STR with DEX on damage, the text of the feat says it's applied as a bonus to damage, meaning STR damage remains and you add to it. In this case, though, Text Trumps Table since the table refers to the "Shadow Sun School", which does not actually exist.

Intuitive Strike therefore seems to make you more MAD: your STR has to be high, as does DEX, as does your WIS since you need all three to make it work. You'd be better served, I think, with Weapon Finesse + Shadow Blade, since that gives DEX to attack and damage and your WIS is just cream on the top from Swordsage's Discipline Focus.

If you're wanting WIS to attack and damage, you need a single level in Shiba Protector from Oriental Adventures -- though you can't get this until passing level 6, and it requires Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, which are wasted feat slots.
---
Seeing as we're on the subject, though, I did come across an interesting thought as regards the Iaijutsu Focus skill from OA. Let's leave aside the debate whether Iaijutsu actually exists since the skill wasn't updated into 3.5. I'm more interested in whether the skill can apply to unarmed strikes.

The common response is straightforward enough: Iaijutsu per RAW only kicks in when you "draw" a melee weapon and attack a flatfooted opponent. Pulling your hands out of your pockets probably doesn't qualify.

Still, there looks to be an even more ludicrous workaround: the RAW skill requires that you draw a melee weapon, but doesn't then go on to say you attack with that weapon. It just says you attack after drawing a melee weapon.

Now, for monks, using Improved Unarmed Strike, there's no such thing as an offhand attack. They can attack with monk weapons or unarmed interchangeably.

So: for monks, put a Least Crystal of Return on a sai or kama. Draw the weapon as a free action as a result. Then immediately attack with your other hand, which then has Iaijutsu Focus damage applied to it. You have satisfied all the criteria of the skill.

There's no concrete set of rules in relation to what exactly an unarmed swordsage picks up from the monk class aside from an "unarmed strike progression" and disposing of armor proficiency altogether. I think this is worth taking up with a DM to port over to an Unarmed Swordsage, mostly because Shadow Hand maneuvers do include a fair amount of flatfooting moves. Hell, you can have a couple of sai or kama with Least Crystals of Return on them - they only have to be masterwork weapons. Draw a sai, iaijutsu focus, drop the sai as a free action, make a move that renders the target flatfooted again, draw another sai as a free action, iaijutsu focus, drop the sai as a free action and carry on from there.

Thoughts?
---
EDIT: Also, for feat selections for unarmed swordsage: Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB), Improved Natural Attack, Two Weapon Fighting to replace the loss of Flurry of Blows, Power Attack.

In terms of items, the Necklace of Natural Attacks from Savage Species is pretty nice for monks or unarmed swordsages: 300 gold, but you then can apply weapon qualities to your fists. Outshines the Amulet of Mighty Fists by a country mile, and there's no debate about whether weapon enhancements can apply to it.
-- Sudden Stunning (for a flat +2,000 gp) is good if you lucked into a high CHA score, and all of a sudden you've rebuilt your Stunning Fist ability from the monk.
-- Warning, which gives +5 to Initiative checks, is normally suboptimal for anyone who has to pull their weapons, but your fists are always on -- a +1 enhancement cost to your weapon and you're suddenly not needing to stick Improved Initiative into your build.

[Gharkash]

Note: i have never built an unarmed Swordsage, this may be sub-optimal and will be MAD.

Straight Swordsage. Strength>Wisdom>Dexterity. Some Constitution and Intelligence are welcome.

Insightful Strike (the class feature) on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. Maybe some Desert Wind (the first level boost if i recall correctly seems rather legit).

Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (if possible), Adaptive Style and maybe Snap Kick. Three feats (four if human) of your choise (cant think of anything good right now).

What you get? This dude (http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-11/art/svc-akuma.jpg).

Edit: if any one has better ideas and/or aditions on how to make Akuma, pls share.

[sonofzeal]

Note: i have never built an unarmed Swordsage, this may be sub-optimal and will be MAD.

Straight Swordsage. Strength>Wisdom>Dexterity. Some Constitution and Intelligence are welcome.

Insightful Strike (the class feature) on Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw. Maybe some Desert Wind (the first level boost if i recall correctly seems rather legit).

Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (if possible), Adaptive Style and maybe Snap Kick. Three feats (four if human) of your choise (cant think of anything good right now).

What you get? This dude (http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-11/art/svc-akuma.jpg).

Edit: if any one has better ideas and/or aditions on how to make Akuma, pls share.
Nope, that sounds about right. Might take some Setting Sun for throws, I seem to remember Akuma having a few even if they weren't his forte.

[Cespenar]

Swordsage 7/Dervish 10/Swordsage 3.

Get TWF, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Shadow Blade, Snap Kick, High Dex.

Then: A Thousand Cuts + Raging Mongoose. Or perhaps A Thousand Cuts + Inferno Blade. :smallbiggrin:

Ooh. I just had an even sillier idea involving a Warblade/Dervish, A Thousand Cuts, Raging Mongoose, Stormguard Warrior and Diamond Nightmare Blade; but never mind that. :smallbiggrin:

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Human, Barbarian2/Swordsage1/Fighter2/Swordsage15 (BaB 16)

Barbarian, variants: pounce, ferocity (rage boosts dex and str)
Fighter, variant: Hit & Run tactics (dex to damage vs flat-footed)
Bonus feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Finesse
Other feats: TWF(lv.1) Darkstalker(Human) Shadow Blade(lv.3) Battle Jump(lv.6) Craven (lv.9) Snap Kick(LV12) Extra Rage(LV15) Heroic Surge(LV18)

Suggested equip:
Belt of Magnificence, +6
Necklace of Natural Weapons collision, martial discipline, valorous, fierce
Gloves of the balanced hand
Tome (dexterity)
Boots of Speed

Stats:
All points in Dexterity

What you get:
-LV9 maneuvers (versatility guaranteed, not a one trick pony)
-High AC
-Can trigger multiple charges per round with jumps or shadow teleportations
-Triple battle jump damage
-Full attacks on a charge, can still use boosts
-Full attack: 5 primary UaS, 2 secondary UaS (legal, see FAQ) + snap kick (+4 with mongoose)
-DEX to damage
-Vs flat-footed add 2D6+20+DEX (again)
-Can subtract AC to add even more DEX to damage
-3 times per day Rage that improves both DEX and STR (+2 to hit, +3 to damage, +2 initiative and AC)
-Extra standard action 5 times per day (usually becomes a full attack 3x damage charge)
-Great at hiding and sneaking

Problems:
-No Adaptive Style: when you run out of maneuvers you have to rely on charges and sneak attacks. This is hardly a problem since you are so good at it.
-No Dual Boost: It's just 3 times per day. In comparison, the benefits you obtain from barb and fighter are so much better.

Suggestions:
Get casted on you "greater mighty wallop" for the lulz (as if you didn't already deal enough damage)

[Gharkash]

This came up in a question about feats for a swordsage of mine, is the charge from Battle Jump a free action, so you can triger it with Shadow Jaunt/Stride/Blink three times in a round?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

I'm not sure.
Two charges is definitely possible (the first is triggered with a move or standard action, the other one with a swift action).
Three Charges is debatable.

[Kaje]

I like a good shadowpouncing build. Swordsage / Crinti Shadow Marauder / Shadow Sun Ninja with adaptive style will let you get off 3 full attacks every two rounds, and that SSN ability that alternates light and dark every round works really well with the recovery mechanic.

[Person_Man]

I prefer a strait Wisdom based Swordsage 20 that focuses on battlefield control and status effects. Other then Intuitive Strike, I would avoid X to Y stuff, because they tend not to have much of a payoff for the Swordsage. If you want pure damage, play a full BAB class.

For mid level builds, I'm fond of Totemist/Swordsage, as they synergize very well in a variety of ways.


If you're going Unarmed, here are some key things to look at:

Touch of Golden Ice Feat: Any Evil enemy hit by your unarmed strike or natural weapon must Save or take 1d6 Dex damage. Note that the Save DC is garbage, so this is only viable for a low level and/or debuff build, or if your build focuses on having a ton of attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). Book of Exalted Deeds pg 47.

Scorpion's Grasp Feat: Each time you hit an enemy, you get a free Grapple attempt. When you successfully Grapple an enemy, you deal unarmed damage (essentially doubling the damage for that attack) and can then finish out your attack routine with additional Grapple checks (the Rules Compendium clarifies that you can make one check for each attack action that you have, not one check per round). It's also a great way to lock down a single enemy, especially spellcasters. Sandstorm.

Acheron Flurry Feat: You can spend a Standard Action to restrict one enemy to a single Move or Standard action on his next turn. No To-Hit roll, no Save, it just happens. There are various little restrictions on this, but it’s a great way to prevent a boss enemy from making a full attack or Summoning while your friends pummel him. Requires Improved Unarmed Strike and 15 Wis and Dex, making it a good fit for Unarmed Swordsages. Planar Handbook pg 37.

Ghoul Gauntlets: Adds a paralyzing effect to any unarmed strike, slam, or claw attack. Again, the Save DC is laughable,. But the duration is excellent. So if your enemy ever rolls poorly on a Save, then they’re pretty much dead. Again, it works better if you have a ton of attacks. 10,000 gp, Libris Mortis pg 78.

[Keld Denar]

If you don't mind home brew, Eldariel's Ephemeral Blade PrC makes for some interesting builds. Monk2/Ardent1/Swordsage2/EphemeralBlade10 makes an interesting build. Take the Freedom mantle for Dimension Hop, and combine that with SH teleports, Sun School, Diamond Rift Stance, and Snap Kick for pseudo telepounce. Tash together Monk and Ephemeral Blade and stack UASS on top of that for 12 levels of Flurry and 14 levels of UAS progression in 15 levels. Leaves 5 levels open on top for your choice of cap.

[Benly]

I've never understood that. You don't always get full-attacks, especially if you're a Martial Adept with tones of Strikes, and that 4th attack is at a -15 penalty anyway. Unless you're playing High-Op against Low-Op enemies, that last attack is hardly ever going to hit, since you're already four points of attack bonus behind McHumanFighter. And it only comes in at lvl 20 anyway, when you have far more important things going on. Seems like a waste to make that a major build concern.

The "all-important +16", like a lot of "rules of optimization", doesn't make much sense in all the contexts it's currently used in but makes sense in its original context. You're very much right that it doesn't make much sense to apply it to a martial adept, because full attacks just kind of aren't an initiator's bag. Where the importance placed on a +16 makes sense (and, as far as I know, where it originates) is in the context of caster/melee hybrids expecting to continue into epic levels. The idea is that you have two dominating goals when trying to make an "epic-ready" hybrid. First, you want to have level 9 spells at ECL 20 so that you can take Epic Spellcasting immediately at 21. Second, you want a +16 BAB, because while you can pump your attack bonus arbitrarily high in epic, your actual BAB doesn't increase. If you don't have +16 at 20, you'll never have a fourth iterative attack even if your bonus is high enough that -15 is essentially irrelevant.

In that context, of trying to cram 17 levels of spellcasting and +16 BAB into your first 20 levels so that you can keep being a rockin' hybrid when your campaign goes epic, "the all-important +16" makes sense. Over time, though, people lost track of why exactly folks got so worked up about that +16 and just took it as an article of faith. For a martial adept with no plans to go epic, the +16 is not a big deal - at least, no bigger than +15 and Weapon Focus would be.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

I am a bit puzzled about the following statements:
"martial adepts don't full attack" and "if you want damage go full BaB"

IMHO, swordsage was designed to full attack and be a damage dealer (with high mobility and AC), I mean, just look at its capstone: dual boost.
A capstone usually represents the very essence of a class, and boosts (especially the swordsage-only ones) are usually added on full attacks to improve damage.
And its signature feat, Shadow Blade, which is only easy to obtain as a swordsage, is also a symbol of what a swordsage is meant to be.
I think that's the idea behind the class: damage through boosted full attacks, and being very quick

[Cespenar]

Even if the swordsage was designed for full attack builds, a fourth attack at -15 is not high on any list of importance. There are many ways to get extra attacks, and at respectable attack bonuses too.

Heck, even secondary natural attacks are made at -5.

[Wyntonian]

I am a bit puzzled about the following statements:
"martial adepts don't full attack" and "if you want damage go full BaB"

IMHO, swordsage was designed to full attack and be a damage dealer (with high mobility and AC), I mean, just look at its capstone: dual boost.
A capstone usually represents the very essence of a class, and boosts (especially the swordsage-only ones) are usually added on full attacks to improve damage.
And its signature feat, Shadow Blade, which is only easy to obtain as a swordsage, is also a symbol of what a swordsage is meant to be.
I think that's the idea behind the class: damage through boosted full attacks, and being very quick

Strikes aren't full attacks, though, and they're generally - not always, but generally - better.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

I had the opposite impression, honestly.

[Talionis]

You can't get full BAB with a Swordsage and that does hurt any build attempting to get multiple attacks. You can definitely build that way though with all the Mongoose Strikes in Tiger Claw.

But Swordsage is a very broad category of what you can accomplish. And since you can't get full BAB, many Swordsage builds go for just hitting with a Maneuver and using Adaptive Style to recharge those maneuvers when you need to. For that SAD Wisdom and Intuitive Strike works very well.

[Jodah]

Due to a previous thread, I made a human exalted VoP UaSs. SS 15, Psychic Warrior 5. Since I had VoP I sided with intuitive attack (since it was basically free).

Still took shadow blade for damage. Other feats of import: sanctify martial and natural attack are both untyped, so they stack. Touch of golden ice is great, because eventually they will roll a one, adaptive style (because it is a class feature of the SS to lose a feat for adaptive style), took the entire combat reflexes line, and when I got to the point of not wanting any more feats from VoP I started taking improved martial with every simple weapon I could.

Still figuring out where to place the Psy Warrior in the build to make it the most playable, but I do know that I am focusing on self buffs (to further lessen the impact of my loss of items). The SS levels are going to focus on shadow hand stances and a lot of maneuvers that are also useful out of combat, still figuring out which ones.

[Person_Man]

I am a bit puzzled about the following statements:
"martial adepts don't full attack" and "if you want damage go full BaB"

IMHO, swordsage was designed to full attack and be a damage dealer (with high mobility and AC), I mean, just look at its capstone: dual boost.
A capstone usually represents the very essence of a class, and boosts (especially the swordsage-only ones) are usually added on full attacks to improve damage.
And its signature feat, Shadow Blade, which is only easy to obtain as a swordsage, is also a symbol of what a swordsage is meant to be.
I think that's the idea behind the class: damage through boosted full attacks, and being very quick

Don't confuse the fluff and the writer's intent with the objective crunch and how it compares to other crunch.

Shadow Blade is actually a mediocre feat compared to other feats that grant bonus damage. It adds your Dexterity to damage, which will generally be between 3-10 points of damage (and by default, if you're optimizing Dex you also have to burn a second feat on Weapon Finesse). Craven adds your class level (1-20), Dragonfire Inspiration adds your Bard Inspire Courage bonus (3.5-35ish), Power Attack adds 2*BAB (2-40), Leap Attack doubles Power Attack, Spirited Charge, Battle Jump, and Headlong Rush double all of your damage, any feat which adds an extra attack basically adds Probability of Hitting*Your Average Damage, and so on. And Shadow Blade is not multiplied by 1.5, like Strength is with a two handed weapon.

And in general, remember that your expected damage each round = SUM Expected Damage for each attack you make, and the expected damage for each attack = probability of hitting * Average Damage. If you lack full BAB, then your probability of hitting is 5-25% lower. Thus, you need to discount any bonus damage you get by that amount when comparing the Swordsage to any full BAB build.

If you take the time (which I don't have at the moment) to compare a Tier 4 Str based Barbarian with generic Power Attack feats to a Swordsage of comparable ECL with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, the low Tier Barbarian will generally have a much higher damage output compared to the higher Tier Swordsage. The Swordsage has a lot more resources, and is a lot more versatile. He's just not great at dealing damage compared to other classes.