Keeping the pace as a tank.

[MidgetMarine]

Hey guys. I come to you right now for help. I'm currently playing a 3.5e campaign, and I'm the party's tank. I'm a 7th level Dwarf fighter/Deep warden 5 fighter/2 Deep warden. And I'm starting to notice that I'm falling behind in my group. (Yes, i know that fighters are terrible but this whole thing started with what was supposed to be a one time session and i picked fighter just because it didn't look bad for one session) I'm really only sitting there and taking hits when the enemies decide to hit me. I'm focusing on being a good tank, High AC and HP, (both of which i have accomplished) But i feel that i can't stop the enemies from just passing me by anc hacking and slashing my party apart. So i ask you, GitP forum-members, what does this tank need to do to keep up.

[Rubik]

Hey guys. I come to you right now for help. I'm currently playing a 3.5e campaign, and I'm the party's tank. I'm a 7th level Dwarf fighter/Deep warden 5 fighter/2 Deep warden. And I'm starting to notice that I'm falling behind in my group. (Yes, i know that fighters are terrible but this whole thing started with what was supposed to be a one time session and i picked fighter just because it didn't look bad for one session) I'm really only sitting there and taking hits when the enemies decide to hit me. I'm focusing on being a good tank, High AC and HP, (both of which i have accomplished) But i feel that i can't stop the enemies from just passing me by anc hacking and slashing my party apart. So i ask you, GitP forum-members, what does this tank need to do to keep up.Look at the PrCs in Tome of Battle, especially the Deepstone Sentinel. Take a few levels in crusader (along with some healing strikes) and maybe warblade, and then head toward the PrC.

This should help A LOT.

[edit] Also see if you can swap out those fighter levels for the 6 levels of dungeoncrasher fighter ACF in Dungeonscape. Beg your DM on your hands and knees if you have to.

[INoKnowNames]

This appears to be one of -THOSE- subjects....

Unfortunately, D&D doesn't actually have much of a system for "Agro". There is very little, other than the Dm choosing to play it that way, to make an enemy focus on the tin can with a stick in front, rather than move around it and go after the squishy things in the back.

One of the more common responses is Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) + Improved Trip, or such related builds. Knock enemies down and keep them from getting back up, or other ways to keep a foe from moving, and thus from attacking the fireworks-equiped water sacks, is one of the few real ways to properly defend allies, and thus considered one of the few ways to "Tank".

I think I got pretty close to most of the things I've heard... I wonder how far off I am.

[Rubik]

Oh, and if you can't or won't do Tome of Battle, check out the psychic warrior and the war mind in the SRD (or the Expanded Psionics Handbook). Go for Combat Reflexes trip attacks with reach weaponry.

It makes for excellent battlefield control when you can use the Expansion power to get to Large & Huge size and put everything within 20' on its back.

[MidgetMarine]

Alright. I'll look into crusader and the sentinel. Downloading Dungeonscape now, will see how the fighter looks.

[Unusual Muse]

Stand Still (EPH) could be a helpful feat, especially when combined with the Improved Combat Reflexes feat from Dragon Magazine (which grants you an additional op attack at -5 each time an op attack is triggered for you). Basically anything you can do for battlefield control.

[MidgetMarine]

Thanks guys, this is really starting to shape up into a pretty cool class. i like the crusader maneuvers a lot. if anyone else has ideas, that would be awesome.

[MidgetMarine]

Thanks guys, this is really starting to shape up into a pretty cool class. i like the crusader maneuvers a lot. if anyone else has ideas, that would be awesome.

[CheeseMerchant]

There are a couple of ways to accomplish "tanking" in 3.5 that work with a melee class.

1) Battlefield Control - This build will likely use Reach and a combination of Improved Trip, Knockdown, and Standstill to create zones in which the enemy's movement is curtailed.

2) "Threat Generation" - To borrow a MMO idea, the monster will go after the person hurting it the most. Working in conjunction with a GOD wizard, this character sacrifices defense (AC) to improve offense (Damage). The Ubercharger is an example of this type of character.

In addition, I would take a look at the feats in the PHB II. With options like Defensive Sweep (and others) it becomes possible, albeit sub-optimal, for a "tank" character who has focused heavily on defense to work. That said, these same options with either of the two examples provided above (often to a greater degree).

Thank you.

[ILM]

There are two (2) aggro mechanics that I know of:
- Goad feat: it's a move action and if the target creature fails its save, you're the only one it can attack in melee for the next round (but it can cast or shoot arrows just fine). Miniature Handbook.
- Test of Mettle: an ability the Knight (PHB2) gets at level 4, it's a swift action that forces all enemies within 100ft to attack you for a number of rounds. It's Goad on steroids, but suffers from two disadvantages: the enemies must have a high enough CR to be affected (so it doesn't work against a pack of CR 1/2 goblins), and the DC is keyed to your class levels. Personally, I've houseruled it to go off character levels, and it makes it much better. It's still a mind-affecting ability though, so it's fairly easily countered.

[Gwendol]

There are two (2) aggro mechanics that I know of:
- Goad feat: it's a move action and if the target creature fails its save, you're the only one it can attack in melee for the next round (but it can cast or shoot arrows just fine). Miniature Handbook.
- Test of Mettle: an ability the Knight (PHB2) gets at level 4, it's a swift action that forces all enemies within 100ft to attack you for a number of rounds. It's Goad on steroids, but suffers from two disadvantages: the enemies must have a high enough CR to be affected (so it doesn't work against a pack of CR 1/2 goblins), and the DC is keyed to your class levels. Personally, I've houseruled it to go off character levels, and it makes it much better. It's still a mind-affecting ability though, so it's fairly easily countered.

Four levels of knight also grants you Bulwark of Defence, which together with reach (read: spiked chain), combat reflexes, stand still, etc forces enemies within your "zone of death" to typically trigger a lot of AoO's.
Not sure I'd trade those levels for your dungeoncrasher fighter though, as the latter will most likely serve you better in the long run.
Knights are fun to play IMO, but kind of needs some planning to pull off effectively (see PersonMans handbook).

I wholeheartedly second the ToM DC scale with character level rather than class level. That or give the knight dual progression with appropriately themed classes (paladins, cavaliers, and anything with "knight" in the name comes to mind).

[INoKnowNames]

Thanks guys, this is really starting to shape up into a pretty cool class. i like the crusader maneuvers a lot. if anyone else has ideas, that would be awesome.

Crusaders are considered one of the better tanks. The ability to attack and heal yourself or an ally at the same time makes the Crusader one of the few exceptions to the idea that Healing in Combat is sub-optimal. And the Thicket of Blades Stance combined with Chain-Triping and Stand Still and the like makes it hard for an enemy to decide what to do: Attempt to move away and risk getting knocked down and beaten, or attack the hard hitting durable melee target that gets powerful as it has taken damage and has ways to keep itself from dying fast?

The hardest thing about this type of character is deciding all of the feats, in my opinion.

[Essence_of_War]

Check out the Crusader and Warblade handbooks in my sig.

It can help guide you to some of the more effective options.

If you're level 7 now, straight Crusader or maybe Warblade 2/Crusader X is a perfectly viable option. I might take two levels of each, and then go for Deepstone Sentinel.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to play a Core / Core+SRD tank, you should look at this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

[docnessuno]

For 'standard' foes one of the best combination is the well-known Ticket of blades (ToB stance) + Stand still (Feat) + Reach weapon + Combat reflexes. Adding the Mage slayer feat lets you handle spellcasters pretty well better than other melees, provided you can get them in your threatened area.

[Feralventas]

I support the calls of Crusader and Warblade dips. I saw a Fighter8 go from simple tank and damage dealer to an unstoppable force of destruction with a couple levels dipped into Warblade. Mind you, I'm not a Very challenging DM, but I digress.

However, I would also like to bring the Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) of Pathfinder's system to your attention. Pathfinder works easily into 3.5, and has some Agro-equivalent abilities. Chosing a specific target to Challenge imposes debuffs to hit on anyone but yourself. You can also act as a party buff/support by granting them one of your Teamwork Feats for a few rounds at a time. (Suddenly, everyone does +1d6 on flanked targets, or when you hit a target all ranged combatants get a free attack on it, and so on. There's a link to the list of applicable feats on the page.

[MidgetMarine]

@Feralventas I'd love to hear about this Fighter. How many levels did he take?

[animewatcha]

If you go dungeoncrasher, see if your DM will allow you to 'Knockback' into the ground via something like an overhead strike coming downward. Essentially, Knockdown only bullrush instead of trip. Also, see if DM will consider the floor 'as a wall' for the purposes of dungeoncrasher. Think dragoon from final fantasy series kinda.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you go dungeoncrasher, see if your DM will allow you to 'Knockback' into the ground via something like an overhead strike coming downward. Essentially, Knockdown only bullrush instead of trip. Also, see if DM will consider the floor 'as a wall' for the purposes of dungeoncrasher. Think dragoon from final fantasy series kinda.

Or you could. You know. Get flight.

[Suddo]

I personally am not a big fan of fighter but you stated in your title you understand the majority of the problems inherint in Fighters so we'll skip that.

When building a "Tank" one first must look at the tank's job. This is where a lot of people often get confused on how to build a tank. You're job as the tank is to die first and keep the ogre away from the squish. Survivability is something that allows you to do your job well not what defines your job, a tree makes a surprisingly bad tank but good cover. It is also of note the first thing is almost a joke on itself sense it can be very easy to simply die first but in the end when the dragon is barreling down on the party it is your job to stand in the way and when you die everyone else is probably soon to follow.
So what do I look for in a tank. Well I'm a big fan of the tripper builds when it comes to Tanking. Improved Trip by itself can make for great fun and if you can get a Spiked Chain (or a Dwarven Warpike in your case) then you should be golden. I would also suggest trying to get increased size sense it causes your threat range to become very very large, this is why I often enjoy Psychic Warrior Level due to their Enlarge person ability, just remember to take Practiced Manifestor if you only take a few levels of it. Tome of Battle is also another route to take and it is good in a variety of builds, a note should be taken that you have a 3.5 Initiator Level already and that if you take a level in Crusader or Warblade (depending on your Int score and style) you'll be able to start taking 2nd tier maneuvers and stances (though you'll pre-req stances and such). A 1 level dip would be something I would suggest highly, in Warblade or Crusader, if not simply to pick up the stances and a couple of abilities. Beyond that you also want mobility so any feats/spells/equipment that increases your speed will help greatly especially considering you're a dwarf.

I think that's going to be my stance on this today.

[animewatcha]

Or you could. You know. Get flight.

Not always available. Be it by merchant, setting, AMF, etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not always available. Be it by merchant, setting, AMF, etc.

Flight is still a MAJOR core competency that all characters should strive to get ASAP. And it is a major part of 3.5e to boot. The game pretty much assumes you will have it past a certain point too.

[animewatcha]

Strive to get it asap and what not, of course. However, it may not always be an available option so it doesn't hurt to ask/get permission for above tactic ahead of time.

[gooddragon1]

Be the best healer you can be while not being squishy.

You can't guarantee who your DM will target but you can cause the person who is targeted to be a lot tougher than normal.