A-Team vs Storm Troopers

[gooddragon1]

The A-Team (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-Team) with AK-47 (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ATeamFiring)'s vs A squad of new hope Deathstar storm troopers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper_%28Star_Wars%29) trained at the imperial storm trooper marksmanship academy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy).

Environment: Flat and slightly grassy terrain.
Objective: Eliminate the enemy.

Who would win?

:D

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh boy a thread predicated on bad jokes over who's aim is worse. Joy.

[The Glyphstone]

Blaster bolts could theoretically set the grass on fire.

[NerfTW]

The stormtroopers. For starters, they're wearing armor, there's three times as many (12 vs 4), and lasers would probably go through kevlar, while the stormtrooper armor is probably impact resistant. Note that we do not actually see a stormtrooper taken down by those rocks thrown by ewoks. If you watch, all they're doing is harassing them while the rebels shoot.

Not to mention the lasers are far more accurate than an AK 47. Every scene in the trilogy where they aren't hitting their shots is a scene where the rebels are supposed to escape. (A new hope and the end of ESB in order to save Luke) Every other time they are extremely accurate and winning. (In ROTJ, they fail because of the AT-ST, not ewoks)

(Also, we see them take down Jedi in the prequels, remember?)

[Lateral]

In before Mr. T jokes!

Okay, now that we've got that out of the way... honestly, it depends on what the situation is. Is this on TV, or in a realistic situation?

If it's the latter, then the Stormtroopers have all the advantages. If it's the former, then the A-Team wins because they're protagonists and the stormtroopers are faceless mooks.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, the Stormtroopers are specifically the joke type who can't hit the broadside of a barn, and the A-Team blatantly don't shoot to kill (Probably due to Vietnam war trauma?)

So surely it ends in a fist-fight?

[Reverent-One]

No, orbital bombardment. They're just stormtroopers, there's plenty more where they came from.

[Devonix]

The stormtroopers. For starters, they're wearing armor, there's three times as many (12 vs 4), and lasers would probably go through kevlar, while the stormtrooper armor is probably impact resistant. Note that we do not actually see a stormtrooper taken down by those rocks thrown by ewoks. If you watch, all they're doing is harassing them while the rebels shoot.

Not to mention the lasers are far more accurate than an AK 47. Every scene in the trilogy where they aren't hitting their shots is a scene where the rebels are supposed to escape. (A new hope and the end of ESB in order to save Luke) Every other time they are extremely accurate and winning. (In ROTJ, they fail because of the AT-ST, not ewoks)

(Also, we see them take down Jedi in the prequels, remember?)

Stormtroopers weren't in the prequels those were clones.

Though yeah Stormtroopers weren't taken out by the Ewoks the Ewoks were a distraction allowing the rebels to get free Ewoks only took out a couple of troopers and one ATST . Chewie in an ATST and the rest of the rebels were who stoped the troopers.

[TheThan]

Well, the Stormtroopers are specifically the joke type who can't hit the broadside of a barn, and the A-Team blatantly don't shoot to kill (Probably due to Vietnam war trauma?)

So surely it ends in a fist-fight?

more likely it was 80s era tv action/adventure. :)

I'm a big fan of both. so I guess the real winner would be actually be me.

[Aotrs Commander]

Obviously what happens is the Storm Troopers capture the A Team - because that's just what would happen, prior orders notwithstanding - and then lock them up in a storage closet or something. Whereupon the A Team would escape, and then pull out acetelene torches from somewhere and construct an AT-AT or something out of a landspeeder (while the A Team theme blares loyudly), with a mortar and a flamethrower and then burst out and have a ridiculously hammy action sequence where all the storm troopers are (non-lethally) blown up everywhere, especially all the vehicles which will crash and explode spectacularly, and then a storm trooper will crawl out of the bruning wreckage, rubbing his leg like it's slightly hurt or something. And the A-Team get away as Moff Dekker/Lynch shows up in time to shake his fist at them or something.



Failing that, and leaving aside Rule of Funny (which is being ridiculous, because that is the most important rule in existance), and no protagonist shields, then you can replace the A-Team with more or less anyone (SG-1, Shepard's squad, the cast of CSI Miami) and it won't matter, because fighting on a flat plain is basically a firing squad for both sides (and no, as we're leaving aside all the humour - because if you leave any you have to leave all of it, or you're not being fair), it means that no, they won't miss). Which outside of Star War's often deplorable military tactics (see movies and CGI cartoon for best examples, not quite so much in the novels) - simply doesn't happen past World War I when it was realised that you just can't DO that against automatic weapons.

Whoever gets to fire first wins, it's that simple. (Storm Trooper armour is geared against energy weapons primarily, and there is at least one shot in RotJ of one being shot by an Ewok arrow. They certainly aren't bullet-proof; they ain't even rock-proof!) Roll of the dice. Skill and ability simply doesn't enter into it.

If the fight begins at considerable distance, whoever ducks for cover first will win (which is, given the character of those involved, most likely be the A-Team or whoever), and baring in mind that you only need enough cover as a pavement curb provides for a lying-down human, so unless you're playing on astroturf or something, there will be cover.)

[Scowling Dragon]

Obviously what happens is the Storm Troopers capture the A Team - because that's just what would happen, prior orders notwithstanding - and then lock them up in a storage closet or something. Whereupon the A Team would escape, and then pull out acetelene torches from somewhere and construct an AT-AT or something out of a landspeeder (while the A Team theme blares loyudly), with a mortar and a flamethrower and then burst out and have a ridiculously hammy action sequence where all the storm troopers are (non-lethally) blown up everywhere, especially all the vehicles which will crash and explode spectacularly, and then a storm trooper will crawl out of the bruning wreckage, rubbing his leg like it's slightly hurt or something. And the A-Team get away as Moff Dekker/Lynch shows up in time to shake his fist at them or something.


Perfect. Outside of that I usually hate VS threads because of how the characters obviously don't mesh.

[Traab]

After they get captured, Templeton sneaks out in disguise as a stormtrooper, so when they go to open fire on the A-team after they manage to escape, they discover their blasters have been sabotaged. The A-team wins by virtue of having functional weapons and the troopers surrender. Hannibal loves it when his plan comes together, and they argue with baracus about how they have to fly to leave because its another planet!

[Peelee]

A squad of new hope Deathstar storm troopers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormtrooper_%28Star_Wars%29) trained at the imperial storm trooper marksmanship academy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy)

Here's the deal. Stormtroopers are VERY good shots. They miss everyone on the Death Star, yes? The same Death Star whose commanders explicitly stated they let the heroes escape so they could track them? So having stormtroopers shoot them all down on the station would be incredibly counterproductive, and wouldn't have let Vader and Tarkin discover where the hidden rebel base was. They were most likely under specific orders to NOT hit the heroes. That they still got off shots close enough to make the heroes not realize this is a testemony to how good shots they actually are.

Need more proof? Let's go to the other movies! In ROTJ, a stormtrooper actually hits a main character with a shot. Not just hits a main character, mind you, but hits her while she is almost entirely behind cover! The rest of the Battle of Endor is pretty bloody for the rebellion (and let's not forget when snowtroopers - stormtroopers in cold weather gear - mowed through the base on Hoth, and the beginning of ANH, when they left a trail of Rebel soldier bodies throughout the ship). All in all, I'd say stormtroopers are helluva shots.

And don't even get me started on how the Death Star's exhaust port was NOT a glaring design flaw.

[Tiki Snakes]

Here's the deal. Storm troopers are VERY good shots.

Genuinely interesting as that is, the scenario specifies that these ones aren't, for better or worse.

But yeah, essentially Aotrs Commander has nailed it already, that is the only way this is going down.

[Raimun]

I'm pretty sure blasters hold more shots than AKs hold rounds.

So A-Team would have to surrender when they run out and the stormtroopers would take them as prisoners...

A-Team wins.

[Peelee]

Genuinely interesting as that is, the scenario specifies that these ones aren't, for better or worse.

But yeah, essentially Aotrs Commander has nailed it already, that is the only way this is going down.

Point taken. I did like Aotrs Commander's scenario, I gotta say.

[DiscipleofBob]

1. Everyone shoots at each other.
2. Everyone misses without getting a scratch.
3. Mr. T goes and punches out the Stormtroopers.
4. The A-team goes out for ice cream.
5. A-team music blasts over speakers.

[NerfTW]

Stormtroopers weren't in the prequels those were clones.

It's the same army. And they're clones in the original trilogy as well. Argue all you want, it's been made cannon. Clone Troopers and Storm Troopers are the same people, different armor.


(Storm Trooper armour is geared against energy weapons primarily, and there is at least one shot in RotJ of one being shot by an Ewok arrow. They certainly aren't bullet-proof; they ain't even rock-proof!)

Again, no there isn't. We see a scout trooper staggered by a rock to the head, but there's no indication that was anything other than "Hey, you threw a rock at my head!"

At no other point do we see the ewok weapons kill anyone (except the giant logs). Pull out your DVD and check. It's like the battle of Hoth where people insist the AT-ATs were ridiculously weak. They forget that initial scenes showed scores of AT-STs supporting them. And that the rope trick was only used on ONE, not a whole bunch like in the video games. And the only reason it worked is because you can clearly see the infantry support has been dealt with first. And they lose anyways, indicating most of the AT-ATs made it to the base.

[hamishspence]

This was the shot that appeared to show an arrow sticking in stormtrooper armour

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

(scroll down the page)

While I've seen large numbers of criticisms levelled at the author of the site- he does at least present some on-screen evidence for his arguments in most cases.

[Peelee]

It's the same army. And they're clones in the original trilogy as well. Argue all you want, it's been made cannon. Clone Troopers and Storm Troopers are the same people, different

Not that I'm aware of, it hasn't. The Imperial Training Academy on Carida trains conscripts and volunteers, books like Death Star, Allegiance, Choices of One, etc. which follow individual stormtroopers in the OT timeline all state that stormies are no longer clones, and in the movies themselves stormtroopers are different heights and voices.

I'll admit the EU is conflicting at times, and if this is one (that is, of you have a canonical source that says they are still clones), then I'll go with the canon that says they aren't, if only because their galaxy is less stupid that way.

[Brother Oni]

I'll admit the EU is conflicting at times, and if this is one (that is, of you have a canonical source that says they are still clones), then I'll go with the canon that says they aren't, if only because their galaxy is less stupid that way.

It's more like that there are some clones left over from the Clone Wars still serving in the Empire, although age and casualties are weeding them out.

I think the last legion that still had some was the 501st by the end of the Empire.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This was the shot that appeared to show an arrow sticking in stormtrooper armour

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWtrooparmor.html

(scroll down the page)

While I've seen large numbers of criticisms levelled at the author of the site- he does at least present some on-screen evidence for his arguments in most cases.

I would comment that he is one of those nitpickers that does not sufficiently respect the fourth wall. Browsing I would say his arguments are broadly dismissible as a goof or artistic-license in the production (akin to say a boom mike being on-screen) that do not present actual canon of the story.

The exception is the Scout Trooper who gets hit with an arrow which is certainly a story event, to which he acknowledges the dubious nature of where the arrow penetrated and Scout vs Storm Troopers.... then promptly moves on to other areas.

[Peelee]

It's more like that there are some clones left over from the Clone Wars still serving in the Empire, although age and casualties are weeding them out.

I think the last legion that still had some was the 501st by the end of the Empire.


But then you have books like the Republic Commando (slash-Imperial Commando for all of one book. Boo no sequel!) which follows clone troopers through to Imperial Stormtroopers, and the issues that arise of the advanced aging having an ongoing effect, and causing effectively all the clones to be phased out due to age/death-by-old-age by the time the Galactic Civil War hits. Even the 501st was comprised of non-clones by that time.

I feel like we're threadjacking. Are we threadjacking? Or is the issue of stormtroopers clone status (a debate I am greatly enjoying, I should say) actually relevant to their ability to take on the A-team?

[DiscipleofBob]

But then you have books like the Republic Commando (slash-Imperial Commando for all of one book. Boo no sequel!) which follows clone troopers through to Imperial Stormtroopers, and the issues that arise of the advanced aging having an ongoing effect, and causing effectively all the clones to be phased out due to age/death-by-old-age by the time the Galactic Civil War hits. Even the 501st was comprised of non-clones by that time.

I feel like we're threadjacking. Are we threadjacking? Or is the issue of stormtroopers clone status (a debate I am greatly enjoying, I should say) actually relevant to their ability to take on the A-team?

Oh if they're competent clone troopers then the A-team's kind of screwed. But that's not nearly as fun as Mr. T punching out random stormtroopers.

[Peelee]

Oh if they're competent clone troopers then the A-team's kind of screwed. But that's not nearly as fun as Mr. T punching out random stormtroopers.

How about we just have the troopers on a star destroyer, do B.A. has to fly up to them. B.A. Flying instantly adds 10,000 awesome points to an episode. Always.

[hamishspence]

I would comment that he is one of those nitpickers that does not sufficiently respect the fourth wall. Browsing I would say his arguments are broadly dismissible as a goof or artistic-license in the production (akin to say a boom mike being on-screen) that do not present actual canon of the story.

true- though similar arguments could be raised against the "invisible turbolaser bolt" idea of Curtis Saxton's Technical Commentaries- that Star Destoyer turbolaser bolts actually move at the speed of light, and the visible component is unrelated to the damaging component- due to one shot where an asteroid in The Empire Strikes Back appears to explode before the bolt actually hits it.

Fans on both sides of an issue can end up interpreting visual evidence to support their conclusions.

[JustSomeGuy]

1. Everyone shoots at each other.
2. Everyone misses without getting a scratch.
3. Mr. T goes and punches out the Stormtroopers.
4. The A-team goes out for ice cream.
5. A-team music blasts over speakers.

If the stormtroopers are clones, and they have some badassery rubbed off from Jake the Muss, then it'd be a pretty good fight to watch.

[Cespenar]

It would be all fun and games until Mr. T pitied the fools.

[Lateral]

In before Mr. T jokes!


How about we just have the troopers on a star destroyer, do B.A. has to fly up to them. B.A. Flying instantly adds 10,000 awesome points to an episode. Always.


It would be all fun and games until Mr. T pitied the fools.

Honestly, I can't believe it took that long. :smallwink:

[Wardog]

Not that I'm aware of, it hasn't. The Imperial Training Academy on Carida trains conscripts and volunteers, books like Death Star, Allegiance, Choices of One, etc. which follow individual stormtroopers in the OT timeline all state that stormies are no longer clones, and in the movies themselves stormtroopers are different heights and voices.

I'll admit the EU is conflicting at times, and if this is one (that is, of you have a canonical source that says they are still clones), then I'll go with the canon that says they aren't, if only because their galaxy is less stupid that way.

I don't know how canonical it is, but according to various articles I was reading on Wookieepedia the other day, the Prequal-era Clone Troopers are all high-quality slow-grown clones of Jango Fett, whereas the Original Trilogy era Storm Troopers are a mixture of that, inferior fast-grown clones of various doners, and ordinary human volunteers (hence the difference in quality).

[Gnoman]

Pretty sure that, canonically, cloning died out between the trilogies due to a kaminoan rebellion.

[Trixie]

This was the shot that appeared to show an arrow sticking in stormtrooper armour

To be fair, it looks like it hit connecting collar, and we don't know if it was lethal. Stormtrooper armor in EU can supposedly withstand metal spear thrown by superhumanly strong droid arm (with enough energy to almost lift the 'stormtrooper' off the ground, though it was very young draftee, not grown adult, so it isn't saying much).


true- though similar arguments could be raised against the "invisible turbolaser bolt" idea of Curtis Saxton's Technical Commentaries- that Star Destoyer turbolaser bolts actually move at the speed of light, and the visible component is unrelated to the damaging component- due to one shot where an asteroid in The Empire Strikes Back appears to explode before the bolt actually hits it.

Not one shot, it actually happens all the time, starting with the very opening scene of Tantive V vs Star Destroyer.

[dehro]

Oh boy a thread predicated on bad jokes over who's aim is worse. Joy.

this..
it's pretty much impossible to take this face-off seriously and ignore both parties' proverbial lack of aim...

[Cespenar]

Honestly, I can't believe it took that long. :smallwink:

Yeah, I only came to set things right. Seriously people. Almost into the second page and no pitying the fools?

[dehro]

Yeah, I only came to set things right. Seriously people. Almost into the second page and no pitying the fools?

it was kind of a given, I suppose

[hamishspence]

Not one shot, it actually happens all the time, starting with the very opening scene of Tantive V vs Star Destroyer.

It didn't look much like it to me- though I haven't watched every shot on a frame by frame basis to tell if it's "special effects limitations" or a real consistant thing.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, storm troopers have been shown to be able hit things without plot armour, while the A-Team, I believe, can't hit even mooks with guns, so, assuming plot armour is removed for the purposes of a 'rational' discussion, I am going to have to give this to the Empire.

[hamishspence]

Stormtrooper armor in EU can supposedly withstand metal spear thrown by superhumanly strong droid arm (with enough energy to almost lift the 'stormtrooper' off the ground, though it was very young draftee, not grown adult, so it isn't saying much).

What was that in?

In Star Wars Blueprints: Rebel Edition, it states Rebel blaster rifles can pierce stormtrooper armour at a range of 150 m or less.

In the newer Essential Guide To Warfare, it states that clone trooper armour (very similar to stormtrooper armour "couldn't protect troopers from direct hits from blasters or projectile weapons" though "it was an excellent defence against glancing shots, impacts, poison gas, and heat."

Later, a stormtrooper legionary gives an account of the Battle of Endor:


And then it happened- the indigenes attacked.

I've seen the holo-thrillers, and those directors should admit they're paid to tell new Republic lies. They make those things- those Ewoks- look cute, like stuffed toys. I was there, Miss Towani. They weren't anything close to cute.

The first wave of troopers died with arrows through the gaps in their armour. The indigenes were primitive, but later I read about the bows they'd used, how they were engineered for immense leverage. I saw troopers falling with arrows that had gone completely through their throats. They were the lucky ones- some of our men took what looked like minor wounds, and minutes later were gasping for air. The aborigines had dipped their arrows in some kind of nerve toxin that paralysed every muscle in the body. Troopers that got hit suffocated because their lungs wouldn't work. I saw dying men staring into the sun, trying to blink.

Some of our men chased the indigenes into the woods and fell into hidden pits lined with stakes fixed into the gronund. Scout troopers flew into trip wires that broke their necks. Elsewhere, the indigenes overpowered troopers through sheer numbers, holding them down until they go their helmets off and other aborigines could kill them with stone axes and knives made out of volcanic glass.

And every time one of our men fell, the indigenous had another blaster. They knew every tree and rock, and they picked us off one by one.

You look like you don't believe me, but I was there. I saw what those Ewoks did. The historians love to talk about alleged Imperial atrocities, but what about what I saw on the Forest Moon? They slaughtered us like animals, Miss Towani. Shouldn't that count as an atrocity?

[Scowling Dragon]

Does Star wars have an explanation for everything? Does it have excruciating detail on where Han Solo got his boots?

[hamishspence]

Don't think so- though there is an entire novel focussed on the backstory of the Millennium Falcon.

There's a lot of "detail books" out there- galactic maps, galactic history, technology- basic factoids about ship classes (length, crew size) and so on.

Whenever Star Wars vs threads turn up- the detail books tend to be where useful answers are given- how much protection does stormtrooper armour provide, and so forth.

[Gnoman]

What was that in?



Young Jedi Knights: Lightsabers

One of the fringe attempts to ressurect the empire, led by the Dark Jedi Brakiss, was recruiting Coruscant street hoods as stormtrooper trainees.


"You're late," Qorl said. He cocked his droid arm back-and hurled the
deadly weapon at Norys with all the strength in his robotic servomotors!
*
Norys stood astonished as the deadly spearpoint hurtled toward his chest
plate. He just had time to cry "Hey!" in a panicked voice amplified by
his helmet speakers before the barbed tip impacted squarely with enough
force to smash him backward.
*
Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal
bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness. He
expected to see a spear sprouting from his heart and waited for his
nerves to send shouts of mortal pain. He wanted to scream that Qorl, his
supposed teacher, had betrayed him, murdered himBut a split second later
his thoughts cleared enough to hear the clatter as the spear shaft fell
harmlessly to the floor. He looked down at his chest in amazement and
saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck.

[Fragenstein]

Does Star wars have an explanation for everything? Does it have excruciating detail on where Han Solo got his boots?

If they were issued along with the remnant Imperial uniform that he wears, then yes. Yes they do.

I do have to admit that they look a bit 'jackbooted'. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Tiki Snakes]

Young Jedi Knights: Lightsabers

One of the fringe attempts to ressurect the empire, led by the Dark Jedi Brakiss, was recruiting Coruscant street hoods as stormtrooper trainees.

I think the things that winds me up most about all this is just how obvious they are when it comes to authors trying to fix things. It's kind of exhausting.

[Gnoman]

There's actually much less "fixing" in the EU, especially the early parts, than reputation suggests. The example I cited, for example, is from a YA-oriented novel that is an exceedingly unlikely venue for "fixing" anything.

[Ravens_cry]

There's actually much less "fixing" in the EU, especially the early parts, than reputation suggests. The example I cited, for example, is from a YA-oriented novel that is an exceedingly unlikely venue for "fixing" anything.

Unlikely, yes, but in Star Wars, EU is canon unless contracted by the films.

[hamishspence]

Newer stuff, and more consistent stuff, tends to override old, one-shot scenes.

Thus, if stormtrooper armour is consistently portrayed as providing only limited protection, then one early scene with it seeming nearly invulnerable, may not be representative.

[Ravens_cry]

Newer stuff, and more consistent stuff, tends to override old, one-shot scenes.

Thus, if stormtrooper armour is consistently portrayed as providing only limited protection, then one early scene with it seeming nearly invulnerable, may not be representative.

True, but it makes you wonder why they wear the darn stuff if it is so useless.
For all their putting on the Reich tendencies, they really need better tailors.

[dehro]

True, but it makes you wonder why they wear the darn stuff if it is so useless.
For all their putting on the Reich tendencies, they really need better tailors.

because they are mooks and it makes for clearer targets

[Gnoman]

Unlikely, yes, but in Star Wars, EU is canon unless contracted by the films.

You misunderstand me. What I was saying is that there is virtually zero chance that that scene was written with the intent of "fixing" something. The EU has a reputation as being a massive Fix Fic for the films and EU, but that's not the case anywhere near as often as reputation would suggest. In this case, the scene was a ideal way to show the younger readers how scary stormtroopers can be.

[hamishspence]

True, but it makes you wonder why they wear the darn stuff if it is so useless.
For all their putting on the Reich tendencies, they really need better tailors.

Limited protection's better than none at all.

Timothy Zahn does formidable stormtroopers without making their armour near-invincible. From Survivor's Quest, where stormtroopers have been fighting Vagaari armed with elderly blasters, and their wolvkil pets:

p299

"I'm not sure there are any vital spots," Watchman said as Cloud put away the synthflesh tube and concentrated on the bandage. "They look like normal animals, but their internal structure seems to be highly decentralized, with their nervous systems and vital organs distributed throughout their bodies. You have to basically turn the whole animal into chopped meat to stop it."

I'll remember that," Fel said, eyeing the handful of fresh scorch marks on Watchman's armour. "Anyone hurt?"

A few nicks," Watchman said, displaying a section of his left forearm where a tiny hole had been punched completely through. "They can wait until we get back to the ship."

p324

The two groups met around the next jog in the corridor, beside the bodies of the three Vagaari Luke had been slowly pushing back. "These the last of them?' one of the stormtropers asked, gesturing at them with his BlasTech.

"As far as I know, yes," Luke said, eying him and the others with concern and a bit of awe. All four stormtroopers had been through the wars, all right, with blaster burns scattered and clustered all across their once-sleek armour. On two of them, the white colour of their breastplates had been almost completely obliterated, with at least a dozen spots on each where the armour had been burned clean through. It was hard to believe they were even alive, much less on their feet.