Build Synergies

[Ointhedwarf]

Hi, I'm new in both the forum and the game so I'm also asking this to find out about build and stuff I didn't know. We're currently playing a campaign with a ninja, a wizard, a ranger and my samurai(3rd lvl fighter), we're still lvl 3 but I'm aiming for a full attack build with 2 katanas and later multiclassing in the singh rager PrC from Oriental Adventures. A friend is thinking of entering the game and since the campaign is combat based we were thinking of a build which would synergize with my fighter, whatever that build would be. What would you recomend in a situation like this? [warblade and probably bard excluded].

Ty

[sonofzeal]

Oh dear. Uh. Where to start. Your own build has some serious issues, and I'd be remiss if I didn't offer what I could in that direction.

- TWF is generally poor. It works for Rogues because they have buckets of d6 that get triggered each attack, but under normal circumstances you're almost always better off using a single weapon in two hands. You're paying feats to become worse at fighting.

- EWP: Bastard Sword is generally poor. You're paying a feat for, on average, +1 damage over a longsword. And +1 damage is never worth a feat, at any level.

- TWFing with Bastard Swords requires an additional feat, "Oversized Two Weapon Fighting". At that point you start seeing some slight return on your investment, but it's still slight and you've now invested a whole bunch of feats into something that's only barely competitive with a guy who chose a Greatsword and didn't bother with any feats at all.

- Speaking as an Iaidoka myself, very few historical Samurais used Two-Weapon-Fighting. Far more often, it was a single blade held in one or two hands (two by preference). If you want to be a Samurai, you should consider using one big sword and saving yourself a bucket of feats.



As to synergy... well, there's several routes. A tripper is always good - Factotum (from Dungeonscape) is a great class for that, as "Brains Over Brawn" means they get to add their Int mod to their Str mod for trip attempts, and he'd also get some nifty special abilities to help the party out. Prone enemies have -4 AC vs melee attacks, so grab Power Attack and lay in!

Any buffing class could also help. Cleric should be fine, as long as they don't try to turn themselves into a combat monster and overshadow the rest of the party. Bard would have been good, but you say that's out. Hexblades get some nice debuffs, especially if you use the designer's recommended balance fix and the Alternate Class Features from PHB2, and those can make a melee character's job easier too.

Can you give us any more info on what exactly you want?

[CheeseMerchant]

Hello,

You mentioned that Warblade is excluded. Does that mean you don't have access to ToB at all? (Even if only for Feats the book is invaluable in strengthening melee builds, this is especially true for what you are trying to accomplish)

Once of the key strategies behind TWF is to stack static damage onto each strike (since Power Attacking nets a significantly smaller benefit). What does your character's DEX and CHA look like? For example, there are a few means by which you can pick up Turn/Rebuke without losing BAB. With a good CHA those Turning attempts can be burned for Divine Might to help out with damage.

Thanks.

[killianh]

For your build I would suggest a switch from Fighter into Ranger for a TWF build (since it gets the feats for free) and changing the PrC to dervish so you get extra attacks, movement on full attack, etc if you're dead set on a TWF

As for what goes well with it I would say either a caster with some good battlefield control (entangle and the like to keep enemies where you can get at them) and debuffs, or a buffing\healing type. So classwise that would be probably Cleric, Marshal, or Beguiler, maybe even Dread Necromancer if he fits the group.

One question though is What roles do each of your current party members play?
The general roles are:
Healer (heals)
Tank (melee\meat shield)
Skillmonkey (disarm traps, open thing, etc)
Face (social interaction)
Blaster (mass range damage)
Utility (Buffs, debuffs, battlefield control, divination, etc)

Better than only working with your character see if your friend can make something that would work with the whole party and fill a role thats missing

[Ointhedwarf]

@sonofzeal As I said I'm completely new in dnd so I dont understand the mechanics so well. I've played star wars saga before so I get the general principle. Now for your notes on the build, the way I see it (the unexperienced way) a feat for an extra attack seems a powerful and adequately specializating build. Together with the oversized two weapon fighting my the damaga output of each blow is pretty much the same. Moreover, the singh rager PrC greatly buffs the full attack option giving extra strength(bonus damage on each hit), hp(con)to cover your AC penalty, a full attack at the end of a charge, a great ki shout with full attack. I can't see why you condemn the twf build generaly. Also, isn't 1d10 the second best melee damage and as a one handed weapon the best damage you can find?
As for the historical accuracy, I play this build because from the start I liked the idea of a huge half orc (second generation) with a good charisma score (god knows why) and wielding two katanas.. :P

@CheeseMerchant I dont think all of ToB is out just the stuff that relies on stances. And for the abilities we play using a powerful build by rolling 4d6 and keeping the highest. Mine are: str 18 dex 16 con 14 int 14 wis 10 cha 16.

@killianh Concerning the roles part I understand that the wizard is quite useless in lower levels so up to now we are:
Me - tank, melee damage, diplomacy (rp reasons :P)
ninja- traps, devices, sneak attack, bluff, visibility
wizard - if he is lucky he can do almost anything, usually knowledge checks and specialized damage
ranger - visibility, survival, range damage (pretty moderate mind you)

So my aim is to remain a tank and damage following a build Iike the one I said and remaining a fighter or fighter-like(singh rager) so I dont really want to go ranger :P.

For the type of character I'm looking for the options are almost limitless. A melee companion would be fun and a cleric buffer as I see it would boost me immensely (bull's strength, righteous might) :P

Ty again :D

[sonofzeal]

@sonofzeal As I said I'm completely new in dnd so I dont understand the mechanics so well. I've played star wars saga before so I get the general principle. Now for your notes on the build, the way I see it (the unexperienced way) a feat for an extra attack seems a powerful and adequately specializating build. Together with the oversized two weapon fighting my the damaga output of each blow is pretty much the same. Moreover, the singh rager PrC greatly buffs the full attack option giving extra strength(bonus damage on each hit), hp(con)to cover your AC penalty, a full attack at the end of a charge, a great ki shout with full attack. I can't see why you condemn the twf build generaly. Also, isn't 1d10 the second best melee damage and as a one handed weapon the best damage you can find?
As for the historical accuracy, I play this build because from the start I liked the idea of a huge half orc (second generation) with a good charisma score (god knows why) and wielding two katanas.. :P
Your view of TWF is shared by some of the main game designers. Sean K Reynolds describes it as one of the best feats in the game for that reason.

But let's take a step back. A Greatsword gets 1.5x Strength to damage. A TWFer gets 1x Str on the main hand, and 0.5x Str on the offhand, so that works out exactly the same... if they get both attacks. And that only happens on a full-attack. Any time you move and attack, or use an Attack of Opportunity, you're dealing less damage. Also, when you do full-attack, you're taking a penalty to your attack rolls that the Greatsworder doesn't take.

So either you've got equal accuracy but less damage, or equal damage but less accuracy.

And for this you're paying a feat?

Don't be seduced by the d10s. Dice look big and impressive some times, but their total contribution to your damage output is usually dwarfed by other factors. The difference between a d10 Bastard Sword and a d6 Morningstar is just two points of damage. Now, certainly pick up all sources of +X damage that you can, but don't go too far out of your way for it.

Dual Bastard Swords will still deal noticably less damage than a Greatsword on as single attack action, because of the Strength exchange rate. And on a full-attack, the Greatsword's increased accuracy means it can Power Attack. Equalizing the attack bonuses gives the Greatsword +4 damage. (2d6 + 1.5*str + 4) = (1d10 + 1*str + 1d10 + 0.5*str). The Greatsword-user's single feat has given them equal damage to the TWF-er's three, with greater tactical flexibility since they can apply it on single attack actions, choose not to use it for greater accuracy, or sacrifice even more accuracy for damage if it's needed. He can also take a hand off the Greatsword as a free action without having to sheathe his weapon, meaning he can keep it drawn most of the time (note: some people think this is unrealistic, but these people have never LARPed; there, people routinely have weapons continuously drawn for hours or days depending on paranoia level).

Point is, one feat accomplishes more than your three. That's pretty distressing.



All that said, there are exceptions. I haven't looked at Singh Ranger, so it might be one. And, more importantly, you should always play what's fun for you, even if it's a more difficult path. I've been recommending against it, and I stand by my claim that it's a harder way to play, as well as less faithful to historical Samurai, but if the mental image appeals to you enough to be worth it, then go for it anyway. There's no "right" or "wrong" way to play, just "easy" and "hard".

[Urpriest]

Singh Rager isn't bad in general, it's one of the lower-op ways for melee to get pounce. That said, the OP seems to be under the impression that Singh Rager grants full Str to damage with the off-hand in TWF, which is false. Keep Singh Rager by all means, but do it with a two-hander. If you like Katanas, then two-hand a Bastard Sword: you don't need the feat, and it's almost as much damage as a Greatsword.

Edit: Misinterpreted the OP's post.

[Mo_the_Hawked]

Your friend should be a Bard. With a healing wand.

Great support class, encourge him to take Cross Class Skills, Aid Another can be very helpful for the Ninja. And then rock the Social Skills.

He should always be useful, no matter the situation.
Need help finding the magical 'whatchamacallit' Bardic Knowledge, Huzzah!
Traps? +2 from Aid Another, it's only a mere DC10! Huzza!
Combat? Inspire Courage! +1 to hit and damage. Huzzah!
Meeting the 'Duke'? Bluff! Diplomacy! Intimadate! Huzzah!
Hurt? Wand of Cure Light Wounds! Huzzah!


I should point out that Inspire Courage can be totally pumped up, should help with the TWF. With 3/4 BAB progression they are not useless in combat, although there d6 HP should relegate them to a second line role.

Others can help you with build advice for the Bard.

[Aeryr]

As it's been said TWF is probably not a good idea for your build. Even if I really like the trope of dual wielding katanas.

Since you have three physical damage dealers, and as you pointed out they could benefit from more damage I support the bard claim for the last member, it's a pitty though that warblade and bard seem to be excluded by your dm, and see why.

I suggest the following bard build (I have played it in a heavy melee party and it was fun)

Silverbrow human (from dragon magic)
1 - Bard, feats: Weapon focus and combat expertise
2 - Bard
3 - Crusader, feats: Song of the white raven
3 - Bard
5 - Crusader
6 - War chanter, feats: Dragonfire inspiration
7 - War chanter
8 - War chanter
9 - War chanter, feats: Skill focus (Perform (singing))
10 - War chanter
11 - Seeker of the song
12 - Seeker of the song, feats: Song of the heart

This build has almost no magic, but can use three uses of bardic music at once, and activate them as swift actions. So the bard can kept the party buffed with dragon fire inspiration and inspire courage at the same time that she uses the seeker songs for dealing damage. You can advance the character into several ways, 5 more levels of war chanter gives Inspire legion, which can be really strong on certain situations. Otherwise more seeker of the song levels end giving the bard freedom of movement, which is great.

[Ointhedwarf]

@Sonofzeal&Urpriest: I see what you mean about the eventual bonus of the twf feats and it makes sense, but aren't you overlooking magic weapons? For example an enchantment of elemental damage (fire,frost..), of an elemental burst [together with the improved crit feat (crit at 17-20)] or of vampiric (if you get the gold) would greatly boost each blow and therefore aid the twf build. Isn't that right? You may argue that the money I spend for 2 enchantments can be spent for one but the number of times the effects are used are doubled.

@Mo_the_Hawked & Aeryr: nice builds for the bard there, I know how great he can fit in a generally covered group. But what about the other casters or a melee comrade? A cleric (or a wizard with the right collection of spells) is the obvious choice but they're more defensive in lower levels as I see it.
For the melee comrade build I've found that improved overrun or trip are quite usefull for the nearby melee allies but thats about it.. Any thoughts?

[sonofzeal]

@Sonofzeal&Urpriest: I see what you mean about the eventual bonus of the twf feats and it makes sense, but aren't you overlooking magic weapons? For example an enchantment of elemental damage (fire,frost..), of an elemental burst [together with the improved crit feat (crit at 17-20)] or of vampiric (if you get the gold) would greatly boost each blow and therefore aid the twf build. Isn't that right? You may argue that the money I spend for 2 enchantments can be spent for one but the number of times the effects are used are doubled.
You do eventually start making up ground, but not quickly. It's only when you're putting special enchants on both that it really becomes benefitial, and since the weapon needs to be magic (+1) first, the minimum price tag for both is 16,000 gp - almost enough for the Greatsworder to have gotten his +3 weapon with two special qualities (or one better one) on every hit. After that point, yeah, TWF starts becoming notably cheaper to enchant.

I consider that relatively minor though because I mostly play in the lvl 5-12 range where TWF hasn't built up a lead yet, and I tend to see investing much in weapons as wasteful. Weapons are the most likely thing you have to get broken, stolen, or replaced with something awesome you got in the campaign. They're also inordinately expensive relative to their benefit. For the price of a +3 weapon, I could get a Belt of Battle and a Ring of Alertness - +2 initiative, spot, listen, roll init twice and take the better, and get extra actions throughout the day. Weigh that against... say, a +1 Collision weapon - +1 to hit, +6 damage. And that's generally considered a good enchantment. Personally, I'll take the belt+ring, and stick with a +1 weapon until upgrading it isn't cutting too deeply into my bag of nifty useful items. Enchanting my weapon is a low priority for me.

Others disagree I know, but I'll take the bucket of saved feats over somewhat cheaper enchant costs in the high level ranges. I can get more offence out of three feats than I can out of two +3 weapons instead of one +4 weapon.

[INoKnowNames]

@Sonofzeal&Urpriest: I see what you mean about the eventual bonus of the twf feats and it makes sense, but aren't you overlooking magic weapons? For example an enchantment of elemental damage (fire,frost..), of an elemental burst [together with the improved crit feat (crit at 17-20)] or of vampiric (if you get the gold) would greatly boost each blow and therefore aid the twf build. Isn't that right? You may argue that the money I spend for 2 enchantments can be spent for one but the number of times the effects are used are doubled.

Considering how much more expensive it is to upgrade two weapons rather than 1 (and a potential additional feat you might need to make half those upgrades useful), and how the bonus damage from said upgrades isn't all that much (a Rogue's 10d6 per hit is noticable. A Magic Weapon adding just 1d6 of an element doesn't really compare), I don't think Magic Weapons really help the argument at all.

Cool as heck to come at someone with twin oversized flaming swords, though.

Edit: I was looking more at the upper end of the spectrum during my thoughts. Sonofzeal, how exactly are two weapons cheaper to upgrade than one? I suppose a bunch of low bonuses on a pair of weapons might not be too bad a loss, but it seems like it'd be more advantageous to upgrade just one, and that extra money would go into magic items. You'd still have a good sword, and other resources to use...

[Ointhedwarf]

"Cool as heck to come at someone with twin oversized flaming swords, though."
I rest my case :P

[Aeryr]

@Mo_the_Hawked & Aeryr: nice builds for the bard there, I know how great he can fit in a generally covered group. But what about the other casters or a melee comrade? A cleric (or a wizard with the right collection of spells) is the obvious choice but they're more defensive in lower levels as I see it.
For the melee comrade build I've found that improved overrun or trip are quite usefull for the nearby melee allies but thats about it.. Any thoughts?

The bard above is a melee bard, using dragon fire inspiration (and inspire courage) he can boost the attack and damage of every party member significantly. And he can do so quickly. Just get some slippers of battle dancing and he is mostly SAD at CHA.

A cleric and a wizard can fit any role, they are tier 1 after all, depending on the spells allowed or PrCs they can do almost anything. I believe that a buffer or a battlefield controller could benefit the party without stepping in anyone's position.

[Snowbluff]

- TWFing with Bastard Swords requires an additional feat, "Oversized Two Weapon Fighting". At that point you start seeing some slight return on your investment, but it's still slight and you've now invested a whole bunch of feats into something that's only barely competitive with a guy who chose a Greatsword and didn't bother with any feats at all.


Since when? He's proficient with them in one hand? He'll just take -4/-4 instead of -2/-2. :smallconfused:

[Ointhedwarf]

You're right about the choice of enchantment, buffing you're weapon isn't always the best choice and you can gain much by enchanting other equipment but the campaign I'm currently playing isn't that competitive.. We have a ninja following an rp build and a wizard waiting to reach a higher lvl to bring worlds down [up until then he's keen on dazing his enemies!]. I'm following a build of a screaming raging orc with two [have to say flaming here] katanas whose maxed the intimidation ranks even though in my opinion it's one of the most useless skills... :P

[Snowbluff]

You're right about the choice of enchantment, buffing you're weapon isn't always the best choice and you can gain much by enchanting other equipment but the campaign I'm currently playing isn't that competitive.. We have a ninja following an rp build and a wizard waiting to reach a higher lvl to bring worlds down [up until then he's keen on dazing his enemies!]. I'm following a build of a screaming raging orc with two [have to say flaming here] katanas whose maxed the intimidation ranks even though in my opinion it's one of the most useless skills... :P

Imperious Command will make people cower when you go to Intimidate them. :smallsmile:

[Togo]

Check out exotic weapon master (Complete warrior). That gives special abilities to exotic weapons, and you have two of them. Kensai is also a good strong p-class choice, that fits with your existing flavour.

I'd ask the DM whether he's be willing to allow you adapt either the kensai or the shining blade of hieronous (or even the occult slayer) to something a bit more suitable. These classes give an enhanced weapon, and since you're dual weilding, you really need two enhanced weapons. Ask the DM if you can adapt one or more of them to work with Daisho (twin-weilded swords). So they'd effect both weapons, but only when used together. Mechancially it's a fair trade, since your fighting style assumes two weapons to reach parity with a two-handed weapon user.

[HunterOfJello]

If you're set on playing a dual-wielding melee character with a Samurai flavor, then at least use a daishō setup in order to reduce the heavy penalties d&d gives to dual-weilding. A daishō consists of a katana and wakizashi pair. Make that a Bastard Sword with a Short Sword off-hand and you're duplicating the historical samurai daitō + shōtō combination.

This will make you look much more like a samurai and much less like a spiky haired anime character (http://liquidendeavor.com/oldmessybasement/images/ff7acs/ff7acmovie.com_cloud.strife.6.piece.sword_image028 .jpg). It will also make your build cost 1 less feat, which is always handy.

~~~

If you're set on having a dual-weilding build, then there are a few ways to do it. Most of the good ways won't match up exactly well with the idea of a Samurai. The typical classes that actually gain benefits from dual-wielding are Rogue , Rogue/Swashbucklers (Daring Outlaws) , some Ranger builds , and Factotums.

The other classes that can dual-wield well are Swordsages and Warblades. Warblades fit perfectly with the Samurai concept, but many DMs ban them. Ask your DM about it, say you want to play a Samurai and not suck at it and see how that works out. I'm not going to get into people's ToB issues or reply to posts about them anymore.

As mentioned above, more attacks does not equal more damage. The way the system is built is just biased heavily against dual-wielding. It's sad, but that's how things go. One thing you could ask your DM for that I do in my games is to allow a character who takes the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to also gain Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting for free once they meet the appropriate requirements. I think this is completely balanced and appropriate for several reasons:

1. The feats all suck anyway
2. Asking a character to pay 3 feats to be able to do less damage than Power Attack is just plain stupid

If your DM understands the math and mechanics in the game and how fighting works in it, he/she will approve. If they don't, they'll probably express outrage.

~

I don't remember any good prestige classes I could recommend to you to improve your fighting style, but there are likely some out there that are better than pure Fighter. Most are better than Pure Fighter. I'll think upon it.

[Ointhedwarf]

@Snowbluff: the strength of that feat makes me weep

@Togo: the truth is that I never read the exotic master class but unfortunately almost all of the stunts it offers are for double wielding weapons.. Maybe a small modification if the Dm agrees but still.
I believe kensei is a bit outside the build. I don't really understand it mind you, I can't get an idea of its effect in later lvls.

@HunterOfJello: Sadly the idea of a spiked haired anime character doesn't sound that bad to me.. :P After all my first influence making this build was none other than zoro.. My character even announces some attacks (eg. iaijutsu focus) before making them XD
But your idea of giving the feats is quite good :smallwink: I have wasted two feats already after all..

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff: the strength of that feat makes me weep


Um... in the good way or the bad way? It's plenty powerful. The ability to make any poor bunny who fails his roll to cower in he corner for a round is plenty powerful, especially when you have other ways of intimidating people, like Intimidating Rage or that one feat that Intimidates on a crit.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you play something like this:

-A Factotum...
-With EWP: Gnomish Quickrazors (Races of Stone)
-With Iaijutsu Focus (the Oriental Adventures skill; the book was updated to 3.5e in Dragon Magazine 318, no changes to that skill were given)
-With access to marbles (Arms & Equipment Guide), the Grease Spell, or other ways of rendering enemies flat footed [Ring of Blinking?])
-With Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion)
-With Collector of Stories (Comlpete Scoundrel)
-With Font of Inspiration (Online)
-Maybe with Two Weapon Fighting
-Maybe with Master of Poisons (Drow of the Underdark)


Call him a martial artist using an exotic weapon fighting style...

[sonofzeal]

Since when? He's proficient with them in one hand? He'll just take -4/-4 instead of -2/-2. :smallconfused:
He could also forgo proficiency and attack at -8/-8, but what's the point? He's level three. He's unlikely to be autohitting goblins, even without a penalty to attack. And if he's splitting stats between Str and Dex in order to qualify for the feats in the first place, it'll be quite some time before the things even out. At -4/-4 he's almost better off attacking with a single bastard sword in one hand!

[Ointhedwarf]

@Snowbluff: Spending a feat to make an already weak enemy shaken for 1 round is ridiculous.. The Great kiai shout is pretty good and singh rager gets to use it like 7 times a day. This panics enemies within 30 feet for 2d6 rounds, and he can later used it with a full attack.

@Gavinfoxx: I looked up the factotum class and its quite interesting but isn't iaijutsu focus usable only for katanas?

The benign transposition spell of the wizard is very useful and fun giving maneuverability to a team of melee fighters..

[Togo]

Kensai makes your chosen weapon more magical, justified by focusing your chi and honour into your blade. So at level 1 it makes your weapon +1, at level 2 it makes it +2, at level 3 +3 and so on.

The first key points are that you can use the pluses to get whatever enchantments on the weapon you want. So instead of a +3 weapon, you can get a +1 holy weapon, since holy is a magical weapon effect that normally costs +2. This means you can customise your chosen weapon as you go up level.

The second point is that you can use a magical weapon as your chosen weapon. So if your normal sword is a +1 flaming burst sword, and kensai allows you a +3 bonus, your sword can be a +1 flaming burst holy sword.

The trick is to get the DM to agree to allow you to enhance both swords.

The point is that dual-wielding works best if you can get some bonuses to damage. You're planning to hit more often than other people, so you get more out of a flat damage bonus like bardsong, or magical weapons.

Another approach is to get extra damage for particular situations. Rogue and similar is the most obvious, with its sneak attack, but that doesn't really suit your theme. Another possiblity is Justicar - gaining bonus damage with non-lethal attacks, and the ability to do strength damage, or knight of the chalice, which gives you bonus against fiends (demons and devils).

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, there is more than one thing called "Iaijutsu Focus" in this game.

There is the crappy class feature one in Complete Warrior that is part of the second Samurai class.

And there is the good one that is in Oriental Adventures that just happens to be a class skill for some classes, including the first and better Samurai class seen in Oriental Adventures.

We're talking about the Oriental Adventures version of the concept, here. Which works on any weapon, I believe. And since Factotums get all skills as class skills...

[Ointhedwarf]

@Togo: See I still don't get the concept of the kensai PrC.. Isn't it like a class of tons bonus gold in the end? His other special abilities don't seem like anything great either, am I missing something?

@Gavinfoxx: The whole point of the iaijutsu focus skill is the special manipulation of the katana when unsheathing it so that you turn it into a sudden unpredictable attack. If I was Dm I would maybe allow an other swordsman to use it even though the technique centers on the katana's design, but its use for any other weapon doesn't make sense

[sonofzeal]

@Gavinfoxx: The whole point of the iaijutsu focus skill is the special manipulation of the katana when unsheathing it so that you turn it into a sudden unpredictable attack. If I was Dm I would maybe allow an other swordsman to use it even though the technique centers on the katana's design, but its use for any other weapon doesn't make sense
I already mentioned earlier in the thread that I've trained as an Iaidoka in real life, so....

While I agree that some of the specific principals used in Iaido don't apply well to most other weapons (heck, many other weapons don't have a concept of a "sheath" in the first place), many others do apply. And, really, the whole thing bears virtually no resemblance to the D&D concept of it. In nearly all the kata, the strike from the scabbard is not the killing blow, it's a fast and light attack that comes at an unexpected time and angle to wound or blind or stun and allowing you to get the real killing stroke in. If you wanted to make something in D&D that actually captured the idea, have a successful check render the opponent flatfooted against the first attack.

Point is, complaining that it's not realistic to allow other weapons to benefit from it is... well, kind of excessive. I studied the art for three years, and I have no objection to using what D&D calls "Iaijutsu Focus" with other weapons. If I was going to be picky, I'd have the player choose one specific weapon type to apply the IF with - you could probably apply similar principals with other weapons, but you'd need to specialize in that weapon and generalization is difficult - but that's it.

The rules allow you to do it with other weapons, so just go with it. Trying to make it realistic is just going to give you a headache.

[Gavinfoxx]

What does realism or historical accuracy have to do with D&D, a game of pseudo-renaissance-or-medieval-era fantasy superheros?

Iaijutsu focus, the one I am speaking about, is ONLY 'how to deal extra damage to a flatfooted enemy when drawing your weapon'. THAT IS IT. Describe it as a specific type of martial art (and remember, martial art = art of war) that this particular character trains in, primarily with this special exotic weapon (Gnomish Guickrazor, which is basically a spring loaded weapon that Altair uses; call it whatever you want), which is inherently designed for this activity. That, combined with spells like Grease, using Marbles, using the spell Nerveskitter, using the spell Distract Assailant -- which would also be part of that martial art-- you can have a pretty cohesive martial art.

[Ointhedwarf]

In my opinion the fact that D&D is a fantasy game doesn't mean you can buy boots for a snake... Iaijutsu needs a sheath to work and you cant use it with a blowpipe.. The rules may allow it but I would never play it (no offense) It is otherwise a well thought build exploiting the strengths of many classes.

So guys, I haven't heard any fighter/fighter synergies yet :P

[Snowbluff]

@Snowbluff: Spending a feat to make an already weak enemy shaken for 1 round is ridiculous.. The Great kiai shout is pretty good and singh rager gets to use it like 7 times a day. This panics enemies within 30 feet for 2d6 rounds, and he can later used it with a full attack.


No, cowering for a round then shaken. As in they can't make actions. As if I made a Barbarian with Imperious Command and Intimidating Rage he'll kill you before you can even swing your swords.

[Ointhedwarf]

Ahh sry, completely oversaw the strength of that feat.. :o But still aren't there many classes that are immune to such an effect?

[Gavinfoxx]

You can buy gloves for a snake, though. Hands of Man, Savage Species...

And if you are interested in fear and bypassing immunities, read this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809

[Snowbluff]

Ahh sry, completely oversaw the strength of that feat.. :o But still aren't there many classes that are immune to such an effect?

Yeah, but considering it's 2 feats and a free action to use, it's a strong way to keep things out of a fight.

[Ointhedwarf]

This has become very interesting! So standard action to indimidate an enemy within 30 feet, you roll a check: 1d20+ 8 (int ranks) + 3 (cha) + 2 (bluff) versus a check of 1d20 + 4-7 (HD) + 3 (wis) + 2(dont really know what to put here). Seems like a pretty balanced check even for a high lvl character. Right?

Edit: And, combining it with intimidating rage according to your post Gavinfoxx you really get something. Help me a bit with the checks though