Elder goods

[Morithias]

I just realized something. The elder evils are supposally god killing evils that are pretty much next to all powerful...but that raise a question.

Given the rules of the D&D universe, mainly the "Balance between good and evil" Shouldn't there in theory be an "elder good" out there somewhere?

[Kelb_Panthera]

in theory, and depending on your campaign setting, yes. There should be some sort of good 'elder evil' equivalent.

[Xefas]

"Balance" doesn't have to be completely symmetrical. An Elder Evil could be balanced by a ragtag group of four disparate wanderers of various races and creeds, brought together by the common goal of doing good in the world, who ultimately vanquish said Elder Evil.

It's not uncommon for this sort of thing to happen. There are more layers of the Abyss and more Demon Princes than there are layers and Celestial Paragons in all the Upper Planes combined. Not to even begin with the other Lower Planes. Good balances things in a different way.

[Steward]

There certainly could be, but it's not necessary. As Kelb Panthera says, it really depends on your campaign setting.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I just realized something. The elder evils are supposally god killing evils that are pretty much next to all powerful...but that raise a question.

Given the rules of the D&D universe, mainly the "Balance between good and evil" Shouldn't there in theory be an "elder good" out there somewhere?

In most common fiction, the 'Elder Goods' tend to die imprisoning the 'Elder Evils' so that they are sufficiently weakened enough to be destroyed by the time of their release. In other words, Elder Goods die to Seal Evil in a Can. XD

[Morty]

It doesn't help that, well, most PCs in games where you can make a distinction between "the good guys" and "the bad guys" tend to fall in the former category. So if there are some big "elder goods", they tend to be in the background and not as relevant.

[Urpriest]

Many of the Elder Evils aren't really evil in the conventional sense. They're "beyond good and evil" not in that they aren't of evil alignment, but in that they're anathemic to reality as we know it. The balance is a function of the normal rules, but these are beings that screw the rules.

[Steward]

That's a very good point. I remember that the Leviathan (essentially a giant apocalyptic sea serpent) is actually Neutral in alignment, and isn't even deliberately malicious. It's just that whenever it stirs in its sleep, it causes earthquakes, flash floods, hurricanes and -- if it wakes up completely -- the end of the world. But that isn't really the Leviathan's fault. It's just a big dumb animal that keeps being harassed and bullied by demons.

Some of them are pretty straightforward evil -- Zargon the Returner, Kyuss, Avamerin, etc.

Others are just flying balls of crazy (Ragnorra, Atropus).

[Eldan]

One I could see going either way was the ex-Solar from Squaring the Circle, for the three of you out there who know what I'm talking about. There was an excellent backstory article on Planewalker about how the Baern drove him to despair.

[kaomera]

Many of the Elder Evils aren't really evil in the conventional sense. They're "beyond good and evil" not in that they aren't of evil alignment, but in that they're anathemic to reality as we know it. The balance is a function of the normal rules, but these are beings that screw the rules.
This. Which is also why most Elder Evils are dead-but-dreaming / imprisoned / whatever until the starts are right... The rules wouldn't really be in place if (and when) they are up and rampaging about.

[Misery Esquire]

The Elder Goods

Are probably stale by now. :smallamused:

[holywhippet]

The odd thing is, the elder evils are more or less borrowed from the Call of Cthulhu books. Except the far plane beings of power are pretty much the same thing. On top of that, good and evil are concepts that many of the far plane beings of power would have trouble understanding being as alien as they are.

[Tvtyrant]

Are probably stale by now. :smallamused:

I think they would be the Elder Bads then :P

[Morghen]

I definitely thought this would be a discussion of the merits of adult diapers, denture cream and diabetes testing supplies.

ALSO: ^Is that a Kirby table-flip? Impressive.

[mrzomby]

Good is less interesting then evil, unless its anti-hero, so people usually ignore them. Because of this, good is generally lazy and hanging out on their good realms having an awesome time, while living mortals are essentially given the ol middle.


It is why every two bit adventuring group can say they have slain a million billion demons, but haven't once seen an angel do anything in the material world.

[LordofBones]

Kyuss isn't really an Elder Evil. He's a demigod servant of Nerull who possibly got screwed over by either his own boss or the lich god Mellifleur when attempting apotheosis.

[cenghiz]

Elder gods aren't actually evil, I'd like to believe... Let's imagine a story;


Suddenly the sky darkens.. The earth itself rumbles and the sun is replaced with an elliptic, darker-than dark figure in incomprehensible dimensions.

The 'thing', howling the agony of a millions shatter the whole metropolis of Yunnako in moments. The are the lunatics, who managed to stay alive by sheer luck of scavenging far away from the city cry out that the 'thing' was bound to something even more immense, more sinister and more impossible.

And everything turns back to normal, in mere moments. The silence overwhelms the world. The 'thing' travels back to the dimension from where it came.

Cults appear to summon the elder god back. Missionaries are formed with the sole aim of preventing - or at least delaying - the second coming of the thing. Great new factions are formed.

And what really happened?

Eh... Someone stepped on an ant mound.

I always like to think that elder evils are beings of such great magnitude that they don't actually intend harm to my campaign worlds.. They are just... unaware and uncaring. When you take a bite from a loaf of bread, a great apocalypse of unmaking awaits the bacteria inside. When you scratch your nose - if skin cells could think and act on their own - thousands die to the one from beyond. When you increase the dimensions and power of a being to impossible limits, anything and everything it does could mean destruction for every other being.

So if there are elder beings of actual nefarious plans and there are elder goods to oppose them, they probably stay the wank out of your campaign's dimension knowing even entering the dimension would possibly be the end of anything known.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well maybe its sort of the reverse. The forces of evil have chained a good god of great power and you travel around gathering the macguffins to release him from the forces of evil.

[Saintheart]

I think they would be the Elder Bads then :P

...Which is why you need to Seal Evil In a Can! :smallbiggrin:

Possibly the Elder Evils are more about Elder Chaos than anything else. The Dragonlance setting seems to go (eventually) in that direction - that good and evil are expressions of order, and without them chaos rules.

[navar100]

With the Elders being immortal, they can only be imprisoned. The Elder Goods were successful in imprisoning the Elder Evil, but it took such power the Goods themselves were drained. The power was siphoned off them as a consequence. This power coalesced into what we know as the Soul in all living beings. Some of these Souls have more density of power than others. This density gives them potential to utilize their power for great deeds. These beings are colloquially known as "adventurers".

What of the Elder Goods? With their power siphoned off, they became of lesser power. They are now known as "gods". Souls worshipping them reestablishes the link of the gods siphoned power, a symbiotic relationship that embodies the Elder Goods in their form today. Some Elder Goods could not withstand the siphoning of their power. Those affected the least became Neutral. Those affected more became Evil. Those affected the worse lost divinity altogether to become the Evil Icons - Asmodeus, Orcus, etc., who forever seek to get back the power that was lost. Asmodeus allegedly has been somewhat successful. Some seek to get this power through absorbing the siphoned off Souls; hence their value as currency.

If the Elder Evil were ever to escape their prison it would be catastrophic. The gods don't have the power themselves anymore to stop them, having lost their power before to Souls. They need the Souls of Potentials, adventurers, to help stop the escape, because it is the god-Soul relationship that is the Elder Good. This is why even the evil gods will cooperate with the good gods to prevent an Elder Evil escaping.

[Science Officer]

Fun fact, the "Elder Gods", introduced to the Cthulhu Mythos by August Derleth, are exactly the "good equivalents" which you are proposing. The bad 'uns are mostly Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods.
Indeed, it was August Derleth who introduced the idea that the Elder Gods were good and the Great Old Ones were bad. The Elder Sign could protect you from the Great Old Ones and other evil beasties.

This, I feel, is not at all in keeping with Lovecraftian Horror, or Cosmicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmicism). The Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods are of a nature unknowable to human minds. They could not have moral dealings with humans any more than humans could with fleas. They aren't evil, so much as vast, ancient, powerful, and alien. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality) Except for Nyarlathotep, who can be very evil when he wants to be (which is usually).

So, in a cosmic horror campaign, should there be benign Elder Gods? It depends whether you want the tone that Lovecraft intended, of cosmic indifference with a touch of cosmic malevolence, or if you want the tone of later writers like August Derleth with good and evil forces on a cosmic scale.

In another sort of campaign, I don't see any reason why there should or shouldn't be Great Old Ones or Elder Gods of any sort.

[Steward]

Kyuss isn't really an Elder Evil. He's a demigod servant of Nerull who possibly got screwed over by either his own boss or the lich god Mellifleur when attempting apotheosis.

That's true, but he's listed as one in the Elder Evils book and even has his own chapter. He has the same powers as the other ones (including anathemic secrecy -- immunity to divination magic -- and his appearance is heralded by the same signs that accompany the other ones).

[Man on Fire]

I just realized something. The elder evils are supposally god killing evils that are pretty much next to all powerful...but that raise a question.

Given the rules of the D&D universe, mainly the "Balance between good and evil" Shouldn't there in theory be an "elder good" out there somewhere?

1) Alignment system has been lifted from Elric Saga, where all dieties are jerks and all dieties are quite monstrous. if you want elder goods, you should reflect that.
2) Lovecraftian elder monstroities should exist beyond the known morality systems. If anything, I would apply only one part of it to those creatures, or none at all, to put emphasis on how alien they are.
3) Look up Nodens - diety from Cthulhu Mythos that in Lovecraft's stories was rarerly mentioned and potrayed mostly as don't giving a damn about humans, but willing to help them to screw with his mortal enemy, Nyarlathotep. I would recommend doing them this way - they don't care about mortals or even gods, their only motivation is to oppose elder evils.


Except for Nyarlathotep, who can be very evil when he wants to be (which is usually).

Fun fact, Lovecraft considered him to be the most human of the gods.

[Slipperychicken]

The Players are the Elder Goods.


Elder Goods are beings which don't truly "exist" in the conventional sense. Something takes over the minds of the four strongest mortals around, and compels them to combat evil, defend the multiverse, accrue monies, and perform bizarre, unspeakable acts for the Elder Goods own amusement. They push these mortal forms to the absolute limit, without much regard for their safety, long-term health, or social lives. Should one die, well, the Elder Good just finds another form to inhabit.

[Righteous Doggy]

The Players are the Elder Goods.


Elder Goods are beings which don't truly "exist" in the conventional sense. Something takes over the minds of the four strongest mortals around, and compels them to combat evil, defend the multiverse, accrue monies, and perform bizarre, unspeakable acts for the Elder Goods own amusement. They push these mortal forms to the absolute limit, without much regard for their safety, long-term health, or social lives. Should one die, well, the Elder Good just finds another form to inhabit.

Bodyjacking doesn't sound too good. That makes every player sound like a divine vessel here only becuase a divine being made them so... not everyones a paladin!

Imo, elder good aren't around becuase its not as fun as kicking elder evil butt with a mortal. I've never been much for Deus Ex Machina plots though. Plot demands!

[Mewtarthio]

Bodyjacking doesn't sound too good. That makes every player sound like a divine vessel here only becuase a divine being made them so... not everyones a paladin!

He doesn't mean the PCs. He means the actual players themselves are the Elder Goods.

[Morph Bark]

That's a very good point. I remember that the Leviathan (essentially a giant apocalyptic sea serpent) is actually Neutral in alignment, and isn't even deliberately malicious. It's just that whenever it stirs in its sleep, it causes earthquakes, flash floods, hurricanes and -- if it wakes up completely -- the end of the world. But that isn't really the Leviathan's fault. It's just a big dumb animal that keeps being harassed and bullied by demons.

Some of them are pretty straightforward evil -- Zargon the Returner, Kyuss, Avamerin, etc.

Others are just flying balls of crazy (Ragnorra, Atropus).

Who is Avamerin? That's not the name of any of the Elder Evils in Elder Evils.

[Shadowknight12]

Elder gods aren't actually evil, I'd like to believe... Let's imagine a story;



And what really happened?

Eh... Someone stepped on an ant mound.

I always like to think that elder evils are beings of such great magnitude that they don't actually intend harm to my campaign worlds.. They are just... unaware and uncaring. When you take a bite from a loaf of bread, a great apocalypse of unmaking awaits the bacteria inside. When you scratch your nose - if skin cells could think and act on their own - thousands die to the one from beyond. When you increase the dimensions and power of a being to impossible limits, anything and everything it does could mean destruction for every other being.

So if there are elder beings of actual nefarious plans and there are elder goods to oppose them, they probably stay the wank out of your campaign's dimension knowing even entering the dimension would possibly be the end of anything known.

The problem is that bacteria can and will murder you if we take the proper bacteria or provide optimal conditions for those with low virulence. Those poor skin cells you mentioned? All it takes is for a couple of them to go rogue and bam, cancer that murders you.

Just because you can thoughtlessly kill something doesn't mean it lacks the capacity to kill you back. :smallamused:

[navar100]

The problem is that bacteria can and will murder you if we take the proper bacteria or provide optimal conditions for those with low virulence. Those poor skin cells you mentioned? All it takes is for a couple of them to go rogue and bam, cancer that murders you.

Just because you can thoughtless kill something doesn't mean it lacks the capacity to kill you back. :smallamused:

Watched "War of the Worlds" recently? :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowknight12]

Watched "War of the Worlds" recently? :smallbiggrin:

HAH! Good one, but no. I just happen to work with bacteria, viruses and cancer on a daily basis. :smalltongue:

[Science Officer]

Fun fact, Lovecraft considered him to be the most human of the gods.
Ayup, he is able to deal with humans when he wants to, and when he does them ill it is more easily understood as willful malevolence as when other eldritch entities cause humans to come to harm.

[Frenth Alunril]

I think that the concept of Elder goods is horribly anti-lovecraftian. (sorry to coin a phrase)

Yes, DnD, and gaming in general focuses on Balance, but things like Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, and the wide range of elder evils are not evil for the sake of evil. They are Evil to us, because the care nothing for us at all, don't even recognize us as anything more than dust. From our perspective they are evil, from their perspective, they haven't got an opinion of us, or anything we care about.

To propose an Elder good is neat, and could probably gain some ground, but By the thousand children of Shub-Niggurath, I'll be the last one who supports it!

Sorry. I guess what I am saying is, There is no need for balance here. The Ilithids eat brains, the balance you are asking for would be akin to something that comes along and puts brains into things.

That's just my two bits!

After all:


The Players are the Elder Goods.

[TuggyNE]

The Ilithids eat brains, the balance you are asking for would be akin to something that comes along and puts brains into things.

Must... homebrew... this....

[Actually, isn't this what awaken already does to trees? Druids are the anti-lithids!]

[Scowling Dragon]

Must... homebrew... this....

[Actually, isn't this what awaken already does to trees? Druids are the anti-lithids!]

Aliens that go around making others smarter? Sounds like a cool idea.

[Starshade]

Well, it would make sense to make something like an Elder Good, if it were partially dead, petrified, buried, forgotten, cut into pieces and had its soul trapped in a white horse named Binky.
I mean, imho, finding one would be like finding an Old One in the Warhammer world, either Fantasy or 40k.
If I were to make up one, I'd personally make one upon a theme, and central to some storyline. Like a God of Mechanical Beings who fragmented his divine spark into million pieces to give life to every mechanical toy he made, thus making them into sentient mechanical beings (it would be the father of the mechanial races, progenitor, so to say, similiar to the Transformers' Primus). It could also mean a lesser, partially depowered form still exists, somewhere.
Stuff like an ancient power of good, who either have died in a battle, or sacrificed his power, and now exists in a partially mortal shape, but immortal in the sense it's just not died of old age. Would work as an storyline, I think. :smallsmile:

[Morph Bark]

Aliens that go around making others smarter? Sounds like a cool idea.

Space Druids!

Though Awaken Construct and Awaken Undead are Wizard spells, so...

[Shadowknight12]

Space Druids!

Though Awaken Construct and Awaken Undead are Wizard spells, so...

Space Arcane Hierophants?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Must... homebrew... this....

[Actually, isn't this what awaken already does to trees? Druids are the anti-lithids!]

I was thinking more of the intellect devourer.

Anyway, my initial response was mostly just a knee-jerk reaction to the question. On review, most of the elder evils in the book have a pretty solid explanation on why there's no good equivalent; except for atropus and ragnorra, which balance each other pretty well.

[Man on Fire]

The problem is that bacteria can and will murder you if we take the proper bacteria or provide optimal conditions for those with low virulence. Those poor skin cells you mentioned? All it takes is for a couple of them to go rogue and bam, cancer that murders you.

Just because you can thoughtlessly kill something doesn't mean it lacks the capacity to kill you back.

So the proper equivalent of what humans are to elder evils is a bacteria without that capacity.

[Shadowknight12]

So the proper equivalent of what humans are to elder evils is a bacteria without that capacity.

All bacteria are lethal when given sufficient numbers. A disinfectant's power or strength is not only measured by the kind of bacteria it kills, but by how many. Take the most harmless bacteria ever, say... I don't know, Staphylococcus epidermidis, which is found in abundance practically every crevice of our bodies. It will still cause sepsis and endocarditis if it enters your bloodstream in significant numbers. The more compromised the patient's immune system is, the less bacteria it takes to overcome it, but even the hardiest, healthiest person can fall prey to any bacteria if they attack in sufficient numbers.

[Slipperychicken]

So the proper equivalent of what humans are to elder evils is a bacteria without that capacity.

Perhaps we mortals do have it, and just can't know, in part due to the extremely complex processes going on, and the fact that the universe would be made and unmade several infinities of times before Yog Sothoth fell ill to the Lovecraftian equivalent of a blood infection.

Not like it matters, even if we did something like that, we (like the bacteria) wouldn't understand, since we can't comprehend this being to begin with, nor could we notice. We'd just be eating and trying to survive, like the bacteria, unknowing if we even gave the Elder Being so much as the sniffles. Or perhaps we're the "good" bacteria, unwittingly helping these entities digest their nondimensional snacks. Who knows! :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

All bacteria are lethal when given sufficient numbers. A disinfectant's power or strength is not only measured by the kind of bacteria it kills, but by how many. Take the most harmless bacteria ever, say... I don't know, Staphylococcus epidermidis, which is found in abundance practically every crevice of our bodies. It will still cause sepsis and endocarditis if it enters your bloodstream in significant numbers. The more compromised the patient's immune system is, the less bacteria it takes to overcome it, but even the hardiest, healthiest person can fall prey to any bacteria if they attack in sufficient numbers.

And don't forget: we need a lot of them to live.

Actually, that's an interesting take on the Eldritch HOrrors.

The multiverse is inside of one. The Astral Plane is a kind of protective shell around the multiverse, where the laws slowly break down, so that time, space and so on no longer quite make sense. A slow transition to the far realm. Mortals, gods and so on in the multiverse provide some kind of function to the far realm outside, one that we can't really understand, but that is necessary. However, from time to time the far realm's immune system invades us when we do something that, for whatever incomprehensible reason, is dangerous to it.

[Shadowknight12]

And don't forget: we need a lot of them to live.

Actually, that's an interesting take on the Eldritch HOrrors.

The multiverse is inside of one. The Astral Plane is a kind of protective shell around the multiverse, where the laws slowly break down, so that time, space and so on no longer quite make sense. A slow transition to the far realm. Mortals, gods and so on in the multiverse provide some kind of function to the far realm outside, one that we can't really understand, but that is necessary. However, from time to time the far realm's immune system invades us when we do something that, for whatever incomprehensible reason, is dangerous to it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what we do with beneficial flora. We can't let beneficial bacteria overpopulate, or they'd harm us, so we cull their numbers with our immune system (we have plenty of macrophages and the like on our intestines, lungs and skin, for example). The Far Realm could be doing that.

Which is even more hilarious because in a standard fantasy setting, this sort of thinking would be utter madness to someone who doesn't even know what bacteria or macrophages are, yet someone from our time would understand perfectly.

[Tvtyrant]

And don't forget: we need a lot of them to live.

Actually, that's an interesting take on the Eldritch HOrrors.

The multiverse is inside of one. The Astral Plane is a kind of protective shell around the multiverse, where the laws slowly break down, so that time, space and so on no longer quite make sense. A slow transition to the far realm. Mortals, gods and so on in the multiverse provide some kind of function to the far realm outside, one that we can't really understand, but that is necessary. However, from time to time the far realm's immune system invades us when we do something that, for whatever incomprehensible reason, is dangerous to it.
I actually love this concept. It is now retroactively being incorporated into all of my settings!

[Steward]

Who is Avamerin? That's not the name of any of the Elder Evils in Elder Evils.

Avamerin is an evil archon, who appears in the chapter entitled 'Sertrous'. He's the real mastermind behind the villainous plot in that game, since Sertrous is actually dead the entire time. He's not technically an 'Elder Evil' but he essentially fills the same role as the 'end boss' of the campaign. Sertrous's aspect does pop in though, but it's really Avamerin's show.

[Rebonack]

As I play it the things that dwell in the Far Realms fall into two broad categories. Those that are hyper-defined, the Outer Gods and their spawn. And those that are completely undefined.

Both sides of the conflict aim to make the Far Realms in their own image (or lack there of). To this end material universes are useful to the Outer Gods as said universe creates a small kernel of definition that the undefined have great difficulty impacting. They must become defined to interact with it, and thus are forced to fight on the terms of the Outer Gods.

The Old Ones, the spawn of the Outer Gods, tend to be a little overly enthusiastic when they get to muck about on material worlds. To prevent these buffers from being destroyed and totally absorbed into the Far Realms there is an 'Elder Good.'

K'rax-Naggath, the Warden of the Veil. An Old One that keeps vigil over its sleeping siblings to make sure meddling cultists and dumb archeologists don't wake them up at the wrong time. Of course, K'rax isn't any more good or evil than any of the other Old Ones. Though its purpose certainly seems good by human standards. Stopping Cthulhu from getting woken up and driving everyone insane? Sounds good to me!

K'rax does take vague interest in the inhabitants of the material world. Sort of like how someone might take interest in a a line of ants crawling across the ground. Though vague interest in a line of ants can range from simply watching to dropping rocks in their path to giving them some crumbs for noms to incinerating them with a magnifying lens.

[Man on Fire]

All bacteria are lethal when given sufficient numbers.

And that's why I'm talking about hypotetical bacteria who, for some reason isn't lethal for human. That's the difference between human-bacteria relationship and Elder Evils-us relationship - bacteria can kill us, we can't kill Elders.

[Shadowknight12]

And that's why I'm talking about hypotetical bacteria who, for some reason isn't lethal for human. That's the difference between human-bacteria relationship and Elder Evils-us relationship - bacteria can kill us, we can't kill Elders.

Yeah, but the thing is, bacteria eat. Sure, they can't eat everything (fungi are the best at that), but our blood (and pretty much most of our tissues) are delicious broths of nutrients for them (because we and them call a lot of the same things nutrients). So in order for what you're saying to be true, the Elder Evils would have to be wholly unpalatable and nutrient-free. Which pretty much makes them firmly outside the natural order and very inimical to life.

[paddyfool]

In effect, then:

Us: harmless soil bacterium
Elder evil: a T-1000 whose reforming liquid metal structure might painfully disrupt our habitat?

[Man on Fire]

Which pretty much makes them firmly outside the natural order and very inimical to life.

Which is what they're supposed to be.

[Eldan]

Which is what they're supposed to be.

Thing is, the bacteria need something to eat. If they have something to eat while inside the Elder Evil, it is the Elder Evil.

But I get your point.

[Man on Fire]

Thing is, the bacteria need something to eat. If they have something to eat while inside the Elder Evil, it is the Elder Evil.


What if Elder Evil has it's own Elder Evil Bacterias that are to our bacterias what Elder Evil is too us.....


Reminded me of the Authority - they once ecountered Elder Evil so large and ancient it's own stomach parasites evolved into advanced civilization.