[PF] The Wizard has too big an imagination

[Yygdrasil]

I started up a campaign a few weeks back after not running one in a little over a year. To be fair to my new players, I set a Point-Buy (28) for them using the standard pattern for point buy systems.

They pick their classes and I end up with 2 rogues who specialize in different things, a Paladin, a Cleric, a Fighter and a Wizard. (I don't generally like to play with home brew or specialty classes and I aimed my campaign at being set in a 5th-6th century Arthurian style Hierarchy.

Everyone built some kind of quirk into their characters and I'm ok with that. Feel free to express yourself, right? But then I read over the Wizard's sheet.

Human
STR - 10
DEX - 18
CON - 10
INT - 16
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

Sweet. A min-maxer. Now... I'm all for letting you be all you want to be, but he's chosen to play as a Wizard who wields a crossbow. In the sessions we've had so far he's not cast a single spell apart from "Spark". To top it off, his stupidly lucky rolls have been landing him bigger damage than the Fighter and Paladin. He's even placed his first couple of feats into things like Rapid Reload and other such Ranged Attack Feats.

Now, he could very well surprise me, who knows... but I know that the curve they're coming up to at level 4 will be a steep one that is going to end up making his character look like a lump of coal compared to the others. I just don't want to see him become discouraged and quit on account of his failure to listen to reason. I tried my hardest to get him to Cross Class to Ranger and then continue up from there as if he was a Ranger the whole time, but he's refused... and fully intends to be an "Action Wizard".

Any ideas on how to set him right? Or do I just let him figure it out for himself as his stupidity inevitably gets the better of him?

[Scots Dragon]

Point him at the Eldritch Knight. It continues being a wizard while at the same time being fully capable of action.

[eggynack]

It shouldn't be that big of an issue as long as he's loaded up with some decent spells. A wizard isn't really the best archer in the game, but it's a decent thing at low levels and unless he has something specific in mind a wizard doesn't necessarily need feats. If he's in a party with a fighter and a paladin he should be above the power curve unless he absolutely refuses to cast spells. The real problem with the character is actually his stat makeup. Wizards need more con than that, especially if he's going to be shooting things. Just make sure that his spells aren't horrible and he'll probably be outshining everyone wizard style in no time. Cross classing to ranger is a pretty bad idea though, so he's probably right not to want to do that. Just proceed as normal, and if he uses spells against the tough encounters then he'll survive, and otherwise he'll probably die and maybe roll up a more logical character.

[Randomguy]

Point out a few spells that would make him a better action wizard: Mage armour, shield, magic weapon, that sort of stuff.

[Waker]

Well, if he wants to be an "Action Wizard" who shoots people with a crossbow, consider pointing him toward the Arcane Archer. Normally the class would require a long or shortbow, but you can modify it to work off of a crossbow. The class requires +6 BAB though, so you should probably suggest that he takes a couple levels of Archer Fighter (Crossbowman is kinda bad).

[deuxhero]

One thing I should note first off is that PF has a separate point buy system from 3.5, and the scores given say 3.5 PB. As a DM you are free to use whatever you want, but I wouldn't describe 3.5 PB as "standard" when the title is tagged PF

Anyways, let him use his feats to qualify for Arcane Archer. PF's version doesn't ENTIRELY suck.

[Benly]

One nice thing about being a wizard is that if what he's doing with his feats and combat style disappoint him, he's still a wizard. He's at most a few scrolls away from entirely changing his playstyle if he gets sick of being the crossbow fiend.

edit: That said, I strongly recommend against Arcane Archer for much the same reason. A wizard has freedom to do whatever he wants with his build without mucking things up as long as he keeps up a high Intelligence and a full caster level. With those two things, anything else he does is just gravy. Arcane Archer loses caster levels; it's not a terrible prestige class, but it would commit him to this playstyle you seem to think he'll regret.

[killianh]

show him the power of ray spells. All the ranged blasting but more wizard than a crossbow. If he's set on shooting though help him build a self buffing and battlefield control Wizard to make him that much of a better shooter.

If there is one upside to a Wizard its that they can be the best in every role the party needs. Other than tanking, there are peons to use for tanking :smalltongue:

[Grail]

Now, he could very well surprise me, who knows... but I know that the curve they're coming up to at level 4 will be a steep one that is going to end up making his character look like a lump of coal compared to the others. I just don't want to see him become discouraged and quit on account of his failure to listen to reason.

He can stay doing this and going up levels.

When they are 4th level and his crossbow is dealing miserly level appropriate damage, then he will want to turn to spells and he will be able to.

He won't be the most optimised wizard ever, but hey, doesn't really matter too much.

I'd try not to push too much, this can have the opposite effect. Let him stand or fall on his own and learn from it.

[deuxhero]

If there is one upside to a Wizard its that they can be the best in every role the party needs. Other than tanking, there are peons to use for tanking :smalltongue:


Nah Wizards can summon HP bags

Oddly, PF actually gave Wizards a way to do the the only role they couldn't do at all (No one can do it WELL except a Vitalist though) with Infernal Healing.

[navar100]

show him the power of ray spells. All the ranged blasting but more wizard than a crossbow. If he's set on shooting though help him build a self buffing and battlefield control Wizard to make him that much of a better shooter.

If there is one upside to a Wizard its that they can be the best in every role the party needs. Other than tanking, there are peons to use for tanking :smalltongue:

Pathfinder wizards can have an arcane bond item instead of a familiar. The bond item can be a weapon. Let it be . . . a crossbow. As a roleplaying shtick, when he casts his spells, especially ray spells, he "fires" his crossbow with the spell taking the place of a bolt.

[jaybird]

I started up a campaign a few weeks back after not running one in a little over a year. To be fair to my new players, I set a Point-Buy (28) for them using the standard pattern for point buy systems.

Human
STR - 10
DEX - 18
CON - 10
INT - 16
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

Sweet. A min-maxer.

In all fairness...that is NOT minmaxing. THIS is minmaxing on 28 point buy for a Wizard.

Human
STR 7
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 20
WIS 8
CHA 7

Technically that's 27 points, but the gist of it should come across. Double-digit scores across the board is not minmaxing :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

He seems to be running 3.5 PB from the spread in the OP so...


STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 18 (+2 racial)
WIS 8
CHA 8

[jaybird]

He seems to be running 3.5 PB from the spread in the OP so...


STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 18 (+2 racial)
WIS 8
CHA 8

No, no, no, if it's 3.5...

STR 3
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 18 (+2 racial)
WIS 10
CHA 3

:smallbiggrin:

It even comes with a built-in subplot - managing your dismal load capacity!

[Waker]

Here is a suggested build for your crossbow loving mage.
Wizard 5/Lore Warden Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 3/Arcane Archer X
Hardly the most optimal build, but it would allow him to be decent with his weapon of choice while still maintaining at least some proficiency with the spells that he seems to be actively avoiding.

[Malachei]

I'd say he's obviously not a min-maxer. It may be an interesting tactic for a low-level wizard, but shooting a crossbow only gets this far.

If he'd be a min-maxer, he'd have put his best stat into INT and started discussing the "god wizard" handbooks with you.

Why push him into the direction of a crossbow build when he's supposed to fill the arcane full caster role? I'd warn him that he'll probably want to drop these feats later on, and that retraining feats is allowed, but will need some time and investment. Then, in a mid-level fight I'll let them witness a "real" (i.e. classic) wizard and have him understand why throwing Evard's Black Tentacles or Enervation is much better than shooting tiny sticks at people. You can actually demonstrate that with a level 1 wizard, but it's more fun at levels 3-7.

Does the player have a lot of D&D experience?

[Doorhandle]

Better idea: Point him into the direction of the gun-mage, and let him use his crossbow instead.

[Fitz10019]

It sounds like you're forcing 'help' on someone who does not want your 'help.' PC character decisions should be made by players, unless they threaten the enjoyment of others at the table. Leave him be until he asks for help.

Later, if he's not fulfilling the role the party needs from him, let the party peer pressure address it. You have an abundance of authority as DM. Don't crouch on the players' limited realm of authority.

If he's having fun, he's not 'doing it wrong.'

[kharmakazy]

Seriously you have no concept of minmax if you think a wizard shooting a crossbow instead of casting spells qualifies.

But honestly once his crossbow starts to suck he will start casting spells. Maybe he was saving them in case of emergency. Just ask him why he isn't casting anything in battle. Has he ever played a wizard before?

[Grail]

If he's having fun, he's not 'doing it wrong.'

100%
As experienced players, we often forget that it's not about winning, it's about having fun (sometimes the two are the same for some players, sometimes they are not).

[chaos_redefined]

The OP's concern is that the player will stop having fun when the crossbow stops being effective. Which is a valid concern.

[Grail]

The OP's concern is that the player will stop having fun when the crossbow stops being effective. Which is a valid concern.

And as suggested, the player should be the one to make the decision to change or not. He might like to use spells at a later stage. Players need to stand or fall to their own character decisions. Whilst GM's can set the restrictions for character creation in their game, once those have been set, it should be to the player as to how he builds the character.

Personally, if I was really worried, I'd talk to the other players and see if they can exert influence. The best way, is to tell him how truly terrible crossbows are in DnD once you make 3rd level and don't have sneak attack.

[panaikhan]

We had a sorceror who was almost the same.
Started off with crossbow, did pretty well with it until he hit 3rd level spells.
Then it was "Lighning. Lightning everywhere"

[Larpus]

Also, talk to the player to see if what he has in mind is actually an "action wizard" or if all he wants is a "ranged gish", 'cus if that's the case, there's always the Magus, who also has a pretty respectable spell list and has the mechanics to cast and attack at the same time.

Can't remember now if it could be with a ranged weapon, but I don't recall anything that said it couldn't.

And I have no idea how it compares to Waker's proposed Arcane Archer build, lacking the time to even compare BAB, spell levels and total spells/day.

[Grail]

Can't remember now if it could be with a ranged weapon, but I don't recall anything that said it couldn't.


Melee weapon only.

[Airanath]

Melee weapon only.

There is the Myrmdash(sp?) archetype for ranged weapons, but they lose spell recall and 1 spell per day per level. In exchange, they gain ranged spell combat and quite a few silly fighter stuff(literaly some fighter class features, like weapon training).

[Benly]

The OP's concern is that the player will stop having fun when the crossbow stops being effective. Which is a valid concern.

This concern is the big reason that I think the people telling him to multiclass out of wizard haven't thought it through. As long as he's a full wizard screwing around with a crossbow, he can put down the crossbow as soon as he gets bored and change over to Stinking Clouds or Lightning Bolts or illusions or whatever catches his fancy. Multiclassing would interfere with that, and so it's the absolute worst response to "I think he might stop enjoying this crossbow style".

[Rubik]

In the 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide there's a crossbow called the sorcerer's hand that allows you to fire ray spells from it, and adds the weapon's enhancement bonus to hit with them. The enhancement (when lifted off of the crossbow to stick on something else) costs 4,000 gp, and it sounds like he'd really REALLY like using it.

It'd certainly give him incentive to start using his spells, especially if you point him toward the spellwarp sniper PrC (Complete Scoundrel), and the Ocular Spell feat (Lords of Madness).

[Slipperychicken]

Human
STR - 10
DEX - 18
CON - 10
INT - 16
WIS - 10
CHA - 10

Sweet. A min-maxer.

He has 3.5 health per level. A Fireball cast at his caster level should at least KO him 50% of the time. He is specializing with a crossbow. If he had a "big imagination", he'd be using his spells to terrifying effect, crushing each encounter like a bug.


If your Wizard is pulling out the crossbow, and taking multiple feats for it, you aren't going to have problems. That's just low-level play for you; everyone uses a crossbow so they don't die in melee, especially the Wizard with no Con bonus.

[Rubik]

He has 3.5 health per level. A Fireball cast at his caster level should at least KO him 50% of the time. He is specializing with a crossbow. If he had a "big imagination", he'd be using his spells to terrifying effect, crushing each encounter like a bug.I'm pretty sure the title of the thread is based in sarcasm. It should be blue, since if really was minmaxing he certainly wouldn't have a 10 Con.

[Malachei]

And as suggested, the player should be the one to make the decision to change or not. He might like to use spells at a later stage. Players need to stand or fall to their own character decisions. Whilst GM's can set the restrictions for character creation in their game, once those have been set, it should be to the player as to how he builds the character.

Personally, if I was really worried, I'd talk to the other players and see if they can exert influence. The best way, is to tell him how truly terrible crossbows are in DnD once you make 3rd level and don't have sneak attack.

It really depends on the player's system mastery. If the player knows the direction in which he is heading with the character and appreciates a situation many would describe as a dead-end, no problem. But Wizard is a class that really favors long-range planning.


It sounds like you're forcing 'help' on someone who does not want your 'help.' PC character decisions should be made by players, unless they threaten the enjoyment of others at the table. Leave him be until he asks for help.

Later, if he's not fulfilling the role the party needs from him, let the party peer pressure address it. You have an abundance of authority as DM. Don't crouch on the players' limited realm of authority.

If he's having fun, he's not 'doing it wrong.'

Of course he's not doing it wrong if he's having fun, as long as he's aware that some choices he's making now may impact his fun in the future. On peer pressure: Sometimes, other players are hesitant to apply it, for various reasons. And I actually like groups in which the players not pushing each other towards maximum effectiveness.

I don't think that mapping out the future of the character and pointing out that there are path-dependencies is messing with the player's freedom. It is his choice, after all, but it should be important that he (and the party) is aware of its consequences.

[Grail]

It really depends on the player's system mastery. If the player knows the direction in which he is heading with the character and appreciates a situation many would describe as a dead-end, no problem. But Wizard is a class that really favors long-range planning.


Only if optimization is important.
Wizards can play fine without any real optimization. Feats/Traits etc are not as important as INT + Spell selection, and as Wizards can add to their spell selection at anytime in game, it doesn't really matter too much if he plans ahead or not.

[Acanous]

When I read the thread title, I thought for sure it would be about last night's session, where I helped PaO the entire party into huge dragons, perminantly. We now sail around on our underwater warship, sacking other boats from beneath the waves, and giving a share of our treasure to Tiamat, who helps guard our island fortress. Sometimes she gives us tips, on ships and such with especially juicy treasure she wants.

If that's the kind of thing you want out of your wizard instead of plinking with a crossbow..

[Malachei]

Only if optimization is important.
Wizards can play fine without any real optimization. Feats/Traits etc are not as important as INT + Spell selection, and as Wizards can add to their spell selection at anytime in game, it doesn't really matter too much if he plans ahead or not.

Depends on where Optimization actually starts. For me, it is trying to achieve the highest power level (something which I usually don't like, neither as DM nor as player) or at least trying to make the best possible choices from a mechanical point of view. Understanding how feats interact with feat chains, class abilities and spells is really basic system mastery, IMO. I wouldn't call that optimization.

You may call it optimization, while I might call it the driver's license.

[Kulture]

Universalists can make a weapon their bonded item and get Int to attack.
If he takes Focus shot, crossbow sniper, dead aim and the like he'll actually do quite a bit of damage.
Considering he has access to spells like gravity bow, invisibility, cat's grace and the like he'll probably make a pretty decent sniper.
Through feats you can get roughly 2.5 times dex plus int to damage with a crossbow, making his damage output pretty respectable, even later on.

Also bear in mind that he'll be able to make his own magical items, including piles of ammunition, fairly cheaply. All of a sudden you'll find your heavily armored boss fight is dropped by him because he had the good sense to buy steel-phase bolts, which go right through all that plate armor.

Gods help you if he finds out about the triple-threat crossbow from Eberron torn asunder, because that thing is an absolute beast, especially combined with gravity bow, true strike and lung-piercer bolts.
He can fire 3 shots at once, counting as one attack, with an additional +20 to hit and if he crits he's almost guaranteed confirmation and you'll likely fail the fort save to prevent those bolts doing what they say on the tin, leaving your caster BBEG to die of a collapsed lung.

Crossbow use boils down to how many splat books you're willing to trawl through. If you have the right books then you can easily out-damage bows at close ranges. Gets even worse if he takes a level or two in Assassin's handbook shadow mage and gets access to the Assassin spell lists.
Suddenly he'll be scry-sniping people through walls, be impossible to perceive and if he has alchemy he'll probably start hitting you with some nasty elemental and ability damage.

[ThiagoMartell]

100%
As experienced players, we often forget that it's not about winning, it's about having fun (sometimes the two are the same for some players, sometimes they are not).

Point out a few spells that would make him a better action wizard: Mage armour, shield, magic weapon, that sort of stuff.
This, a million times this. Just let the guy be an "action wizard" and point out with a few buff spells he would be better at it.
Also, use Batman as an example of this. People love Batman.

[Cor1]

Depends on where Optimization actually starts. For me, it is trying to achieve the highest power level (something which I usually don't like, neither as DM nor as player) or at least trying to make the best possible choices from a mechanical point of view. Understanding how feats interact with feat chains, class abilities and spells is really basic system mastery, IMO. I wouldn't call that optimization.

You may call it optimization, while I might call it the driver's license.

I'm so agreeing with this it hurts.

Last character I rolled up is a Psion, who ended up having as many feats as powers known. I built it as a showcase for psionic tricks, stopping just short of infinite loops... and now it's not even fun. It does feels good to have the power of GOD, but having no opportunity to use it makes it feel like a waste.

In the case of this crossbow-wizard, I never even thought of doing that. Wizards don't use crossbows! They GOD up the battle! A spell that allows SR or saves isn't worth the paper/pixels it's written on! Effective Wizards are Incantatrix/Spellguard/Iot7V with Leadership for DMM Persist Cloistered Cleric Cohorts with Knowledge Devotion! (Been there, done that, loved it.)

And, finally : why not? Why not simply Do It? Why even try to make it mechanically efficient? And if you want it to, there are spells for that. Nightsomething Transformation is a Transmutation spell that basically makes you a (weak) rogue, like Tenser's Transformation makes you a (well...) Fighter and Mental Pinnacle makes you a (weak) Psion. But it's a mid-level spell, so not for right now.

With Blink, True Strike, and Celerity + Arcane Fusion, when the mage will have learned what spells are for, he'll be scary. Then at some point he'll learn Polymorph, and with very light shenanigans (if you can even call them that) he'll turn into a thri-kreen to wield two crossbows, with racial HDs for one multi-weapon feat.

Hell, I'd stat it just for fun. What could we do with this? Assuming all the limits for spells known, counting the free spells by level gain, the cost of scrolls, of the materials for copying spells into the spellbook, fitting that into WBL, it could be fun to do it in the limited slots of feats and options until level 5.

Is there an Item Familiar that could be a crossbow? Hmm... nope. (That's the ACF named Focus Caster in the rules, right? Or is it something else entirely again?)

Maybe with a Trap creation method, it could be possible to make the crossbow into a hand-held sentry gatling gun. Someone once statted one that shot over a hundred bolts a round, but if I remember it correctly he used a bow.

Hm, I'm flip-flopping between "it doesn't have to be optimized to work" and "how to optimize this so it works"... What's the minimum? Obviously, the gatling crossbow is overpowered to the nine hells (or until the kind of levels where specialized archers get to do it better), but obviously, a wizard with no class features to augment crossbow damage is useless as an archer past level 3 and useless as a wizard from the start, at every action he's not casting a spell to help make the party win the encounter. (Playing Wizard as not-GOD = Doing It Wrong, it's stuck in my head, and it's not like I like it.)

What spells could that wizard use to make it a good shot? Can it be as good as a dedicated archer, something like Ranger 2 / Scout X with Swift Hunter?

How good could it be without casting spells, even combat buffs? What with magic items? What with both? Spell-storing Arrows, how do they work?