Wizard or Sorcerer?

[a.rice72391]

So, right now I'm a Goliath Warblade 5 in my current campaign. I want to prestige into Abjurant Champion for martial arcanist so I can cast mighty wallop on my weapon. My build is centered around increasing my size and my weapons size to scale the damage. So enlarge person, wallop, and a couple other things like that. If you have any suggestions on scaling damage further I'm all ears. My question is what class to dip in for arcane spellcasting to meet the prereq for Abjurant Champion.

Please do not post alternate build routes, or what I could have done/should have done from the start. I like my build and want to have fun.

So what I'm looking for is

-Any suggestions relevant to size increases on myself or my weapon
-Suggestions on what class to dip in for the PRC prereqs

Thanks in advance

[Dumbledore lives]

I've heard that Jade Phoenix Mage is a goo PrC with full BAB and 8/10 casting, so you might consider that after Abjurant champion. I'd say Wizard is better for a Warblade since you already have a decent Int, as opposed to your Charisma which is probably abysmal, plus you get spells one level earlier, which matters a lot in terms of getting into PrCs.

[Waker]

I would say Sorcerer, it doesn't sound like you care too much about spellcasting, so going with a spontaneous caster is probably the better bet. That way you can choose just a handful of spells that you like casting over and over. You don't need more than 13 Cha unless you plan on progressing your casting. Just focus your spells on buffs, since those are unaffected by your ability score.

[Suddo]

If you aren't looking for too much crunch (because if you are Wizard is the obvious choice) Duskblades are cool and you should look at them plus they are int based. If you are looking for crunch Wizards are the go to things not only due to the fact that you can learn niche spells and not waste spells known but also due to the simple fact that you are a Warblade and Warblades have higher Int than Cha usually.

[Thomasinx]

I would say Sorcerer, it doesn't sound like you care too much about spellcasting, so going with a spontaneous caster is probably the better bet. That way you can choose just a handful of spells that you like casting over and over. You don't need more than 13 Cha unless you plan on progressing your casting. Just focus your spells on buffs, since those are unaffected by your ability score.

If he's going abjurant champion, it's almost certainly better to go wizard. The cha won't help him anywhere else, so it's basically a dead weight. It's much better to dump points in INT which is helpful with warblade (plus with skills), and also gain the flexibility wizards have with spellcasting.

Plus, if you go sorc, you can't get any sanctified spells, which include two of the only +AC Bonus abjuration spells that exist. (A big plus when using abjurant champ).

[hoverfrog]

Take wizard. Having that extra free feat to Scribe Scroll may not seem like a big difference but it allows you to prepare and keep extra spells around for when you just might need them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd use Suel Arcanamach, from Complete Arcane. You'll probably need to multiclass into something with full BAB and the right class skills, Duskblade (PH2) should do the trick but Hexblade (CW) also works. Duskblade has the added advantage of giving you one of the prerequisite feats for free at its 2nd level, plus tons of low level spell slots for utility. The typical build would be Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1, but you may want less SA to finish off with JPM.

That's assuming your Cha is at least as high as your Int. If your Cha is less than 14, don't take a Cha-based casting class. If your Int is less than 14, don't take an Int-based casting class. If both of those are below 14, just take Leadership for a dedicated buffer cohort.

Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids, you can't cast Enlarge Person on them.

[ahenobarbi]

Wizard. You get to use your Int and you don't have to worry about counting spells known (even if you want just a few buffs it may take sorcerer long to learn all of them).

[Pilo]

I would say focused specialist wizard, banning necromancy, enchantment and illusion so you get many spells per day, because int is important for warblades too.

[candycorn]

Wizard. I'd recommend one of the following:

Martial Wizard: Give up Scribe Scroll, get a fighter bonus feat. Score for your character.

Focused Specialist (Transmuter): You'll give up 3 schools, but who cares? You're only interested in a limited array of effects. Abjuration (for the champ), and size/strength/combat boosts. Upshot? You get a LOT of transmutation spells. At level 1, with a 12 int, you'll get 1 spell of any unbarred school, and 3 transmutation spells.

The real problem is that I believe Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids, which means that spells which target Humanoids (such as Enlarge Person) won't work on them. Psionics will work, but that doesn't seem the route you wish to go. I recommend asking the DM for a bit of leeway on this point.

[nedz]

The real problem is that I believe Goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids, which means that spells which target Humanoids (such as Enlarge Person) won't work on them. Psionics will work, but that doesn't seem the route you wish to go. I recommend asking the DM for a bit of leeway on this point.

I would go with Sorceror: you don't need many tricks and it gives you tactical flexibility.

You should take Practiced Spellcaster either way, obviously.

Monstrous Humanoid does open up lots of options with Alter Self. This should give you various sizes, flight, swim, burrow, natural AC, etc. The various monster manuals are your spellbook with this one.

[ahenobarbi]

I would go with Sorceror: you don't need many tricks and it gives you tactical flexibility.

But if you want to buff yourself you have little need for tactical flexibility :smallcool:

[Lostbutseeking]

Wizard. Sanctified spells are a big reason to go wizard, you also have int synergy and better character options (the abrupt jaunt ACF in particular).

[Randomguy]

Wizard. Some buffs only need to be cast once a day, (like greater magic weapon and greater mighty wallop) and you've got more versatility if you only prepare them once than if you only cast one of your few spells known once each day. I'd be a focused specialist transmuter. Ban Enchantment, necromancy and evocation.

EDIT: Oh, and if you're aiming for more sizes of damage consider Wu Jen, for GiantSize. Wu Jens have a lot of other gish spells (body outside body, metallic skin, so on). And sorcerers/wizards get enlarge weapon, from complete scoundrel, which makes your weapon a size bigger, but you take no penalties for it.

[a.rice72391]

Okay, so I think I'll go with martial wizard ACF, and specialize in transmutation.

Any suggestions on spells to take or other things I could do with the route I decided on?

[Fouredged Sword]

Shield, Luminus armor, grease, ray of enfeeblement.

Truestrike can be really nice with enough power attack and a charge.

I also like fell weaken as a metamagic effect applied to sonic snap. -4 to target's strength, no save, no attack roll. Stack it with a follow up ray of enfeeblement and you are looking at 1d6+4 strength penalty. Nice lead in to melee combat if I do say so myself. Once you get a second level spell slot, you can combine the two into a single spell and you should be doing something like 1d6+5 or 6 by that point.

[Socratov]

Id say sorceror and here's why:

for your purpose you want to get those early lvl spells and htere is one spell in particular that will be an immense help: Wings of Cover (races of the dragon).

Warblade has many offensive options in maneuvers, stances, bab, etc. However, when facing a great threat, it can be immensely helpful if you have that panic button. Normally it's IHS for warlbade, but that is (when handled sensibily by your DM) only for statuseffects. Beïng able to prevent a spell from reaching you Wings of cover can act as a great panic button to ensure you live to see then next turn. Since it's a 2nd level spell you will be aptly served with a 12 in cha. It is costly at an extra level. Yes a warblade benefits form intelligence, but actually the best options are batle cunning and battle mastery. Ref saves are seldom that threathening, trip, bullrush and sunder should be covered by strength. The extra damage by intelligence is negligable compared by weapon, strength and maneuvers and stances so that's not the main problem. Skillpoints is nice to have, but the warblade is not a skilmonkey. Unless you will be using skills frequently (the entryinto JPM is not that skill heavy). Crit confirming shouldn't be your focus (unless lightning maces, but you didn't say you would use it).

Now the benefits of sorc over wizard: you will instantly learn spells, you wpn't have to buy them and scribe them into your book, that leaves gold for your equipment. You will be able ta cast spontaneously, this will allow you to use your sorc spells to supplement your warblade options easier and more flexible* (wizard comes online through a lot of planning and divination). while taking up Cha you can make use (if allowed that is) of the leadership feat, you can even add to that a fancy familliar and if you take sorc first you can even select a bloodline opening up more options for you.

So you will lsoe some skills by taking cha, but you won't use skills so much anyway (you are a fighter, not a skillmonkey), it will however raise your social skills modifier, which are notoriously easy to use anyway (relatively giving you more then raw skillpoints anyway).

also, did i mention Wings of Cover? :smallwink:

*by flexible i mean flexible, not versatile. You will be able to use your resources more easily, not gain a wider array of tricks.

edit: it also keeps your initiator level tidy: lvl 3 wizard will net you 1,5 initiator level, 4 levels of sorc will give 2. The rest i trust goes into warblade/JPM anyway, so that's no problem anyway

edit 2: I'm a slight idiot -.-, but this all still applies to gishing it up with abjurant champion. Just don't ban Evocation and you will have not only great defenses, but awesome panic buttons too, and great potential to gish it up

[ahenobarbi]

for your purpose you want to get those early lvl spells and htere is one spell in particular that will be an immense help: Wings of Cover (races of the dragon).

Yes this is a good spell, but he'd need to get Sor 4 to have it available. And Wiz also can use some good defensive spells.


Now the benefits of sorc over wizard: you will instantly learn spells, you wpn't have to buy them and scribe them into your book, that leaves gold for your equipment.

Wizard gets 2 spells known per level wityhout paying. That's more than Sorcerer gets.


You will be able ta cast spontaneously, this will allow you to use your sorc spells to supplement your warblade options easier and more flexible* (wizard comes online through a lot of planning and divination)


No Wizard that wants to self-buff can prepare the same spells every day with no divination or planning.

[Waker]

Wizard gets 2 spells known per level wityhout paying. That's more than Sorcerer gets
True, but I imagine that the poster is only going to take one level of wizard. You don't get the 2 spells known unless you actually take levels of wizard, PrCs don't count. For every spell he takes after that first level, he would have to take the time and money to learn the spell..

[Socratov]

for self buffing, sure, but for real self buffing you will probably want cleric or something (IIRC cleric beats wizard at buffing), however, for spells that will be useful at the encounter itself spontaneous is more flexible then prepared casting.

at lvl 4 sorc you could get wings of cover, and use it 3 times a day, a clear winner in my eyes...

[ahenobarbi]

True, but I imagine that the poster is only going to take one level of wizard. You don't get the 2 spells known unless you actually take levels of wizard, PrCs don't count. For every spell he takes after that first level, he would have to take the time and money to learn the spell..

PrCs don't count? Well it's debatable IIRC (so it would depend on OPs DM).


for self buffing, sure, but for real self buffing you will probably want cleric or something (IIRC cleric beats wizard at buffing), however, for spells that will be useful at the encounter itself spontaneous is more flexible then prepared casting.

Nope. OP wants mighty wallop. And Wiz could do very well with Mirror Images, Celerities etc.

[Waker]

PrCs don't count? Well it's debatable IIRC (so it would depend on OPs DM).

At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook.
Taken directly from the SRD. Many DMs might allow the interpretation of getting the bonus spells whenever the character's arcane caster level increases, but as it is written, you need to take Wizard levels in order to get the bonus spells.