Tier 3 D&D homebrew?

[etrpgb]

Is there an homebrew D&D d20 variant wrote so that all classes are, as best as possible, Tier 3? I see there are many ``fixes'' around, but I missed something more coherent and comprehensive.

Beside ``fixes'' usually make useless classes a little more useful; In my experience players simply react saying: ``Uh? I am a wizard/incantrix, that fix does not touch me; who want to play a factotum/monk hybrid anyway?'.

Link and comments are very welcome.

[Diovid]

Just ban tiers 1 and 2?

Alternatively, give all full casters bard-like progression instead (meaning spellcasting goes up to 6th level instead of 9th).

[sonofzeal]

Is there an homebrew D&D d20 variant wrote so that all classes are, as best as possible, Tier 3? I see there are many ``fixes'' around, but I missed something more coherent and comprehensive.

Beside ``fixes'' usually make useless classes a little more useful; In my experience players simply react saying: ``Uh? I am a wizard/incantrix, that fix does not touch me; who want to play a factotum/monk hybrid anyway?'.

Link and comments are very welcome.
It's easy to get T1 down to T2, but the T2/T3 boundary is pretty hard. Just about any solution there will involve massive changes - banning all the classes and adding new ones, or massive sweeping changes to spells across the board.

I do recommend the Balance Fix in my sig though. It usually just moves things down to T2, but in a way that generally helps the DM maintain control and caters to the innate flavour of the classes. And it's pretty trivial to implement. I've used it, and it worked very well. Worth checking out, imo.

[eggs]

What if you both fixed/replaced the low-power concept options and replaced the high-powered spellcasters with Dread Necromancer/Beguiler/Warmage-type specialist casting analogs?

The last time I was looking for those, I found enough DN-type classes matching various concepts that it shouldn't be too restrictive:
Prime32's Wizard (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2410) (basic utility spells+Warlock-style blasting), Summoner (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3400) (summons) and Cleric (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4082) (buffs, heals, aligned spells)
Arguskos's Savant, Summoner and Spellweaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5207270) (Abjuration/Divination, Conjuration and Transmutation, respectively) and Rearranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99314) (Transmutation)
The Demented One's Planeswalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49583) (Conjuration)
GryffonDurime's Alchemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49554) (Mostly Transmutation, but the spells wander all over)
The Glyphstone's Witch Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60146) (Buffs and Curses)
Darth Stabber's Court Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5824387) (Abjuration/Divination) and Mutationist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106138) (Transmutatation)
The-Mage-King's Barrier Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9866726#post9866726) (Abjurations, Walls and Clouds)
Ghost Warlock's Shadowmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4700555#post4700555) (debuff necromancy and shadow illusions)
Violet Octopus's Time Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93531) (divinations, Summons, teleports and speed/time-related buffs/debuffs)
PairO'Dice Lost's Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105787) (Abjuration, and a huge hodgepodge of other spells)
Frog God's Seer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158308) (Abjuration/Divination) and Spellshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162170)(Transmutation)
DragoonWraith's Puppet Master (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Puppet_Master) (Transmutation and summoning)
RobbyPant's Oracle (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7683.msg254245#msg254245) (Abjurer/Diviner support), Purifier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9803) (healing, buffing, positive energy blasting) and Elemental Mages (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=476.0) (various elemental themes)
Garryl's Medic (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12170) (arcane healing/defensive buffing)
dspeyer's Village Priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9383721) (either Life- or Death- themed divine casting, modified with domains).
jiriku's Earth Dreamer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155003) (divinations, earth-themed spells), Emberhaunt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158205) (fire spells and buffs), Shapeshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239085) (morphs, buffs and polymorph nerfs), Storm Lord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157750) (air, electric and buffing spells), Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181483) (summons, buffs, control), Void Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159776) (divinations and curses), Wavekeeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159251) (water spells, control/BC elements)

[Eldest]

Just ban tiers 1 and 2?

Alternatively, give all full casters bard-like progression instead (meaning spellcasting goes up to 6th level instead of 9th).

That's actually not a great idea. Bards have 6th level casting, yes. They are tier three, yes. However, they also have a boatload of other stuff they can do, including Bardic Music and skills. A Bard isn't tier three just because of the spellcasting. So you'd need to add similar abillities to the full casters.

Also on topic, jiriku's stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10523436&postcount=110) is balanced around tier three.

[FMArthur]

I'm slowly building a document that brings Tier 1 casting down to 6th level maximum and Tier 2 casting to 7th (with spell slots in quantities befitting full casters, not bards) and gives them all a smattering of new class features. The list of Tier 1s and Tier 2s is actually small enough to be able to feasibly apply a 'general' change for each group and then briefly touch-up each class with specific changes.

It's not nearly as devastating as people's initial reactions indicate. They have phenominal universalist spell lists and amazing versatility within those. They keep it. They just don't get to be the most powerful at it while they do everything. Putting them on a versatility-power balance is the most feasible way to readjust these universalists without tearing down the classes and their long-running book support wholesale, which I consider undesirable.

[ThiagoMartell]

T1 goes down to T3 easily if you ban certain spells.
T2 is harder, because banning stuff might get them actually lower than T3, since T2 is basically one-trick-ponies.

[etrpgb]

Just ban tiers 1 and 2?

Alternatively, give all full casters bard-like progression instead (meaning spellcasting goes up to 6th level instead of 9th).

Would you play a game with only: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (Without access to Summon Monster vestige), Wildshape Variant Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior plus +1 or +0 PrC (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0)?

... It actually sounds fairly good!


What if you both fixed/replaced the low-power concept options and replaced the high-powered spellcasters with Dread Necromancer/Beguiler/Warmage-type specialist casting analogs?

The last time I was looking for those, I found enough DN-type classes matching various concepts that it shouldn't be too restrictive

Exactly, this is what I (in my dreams) 3.5 had to be... Thanks for the links. Too bad there is nothing comprehensive. What about doing it? Is anyone interested (to play overall)?


T1 goes down to T3 easily if you ban certain spells.
T2 is harder, because banning stuff might get them actually lower than T3, since T2 is basically one-trick-ponies.

Good point.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I made a pair of generic classes, Mage and Adventurer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243594), that I think should be strong Tier 3. They're pretty broad, so shouldn't have much problem emulating a variety of classes.

[Suddo]

T1 goes down to T3 easily if you ban certain spells.
The idea maybe simple but the large amount of spells causes this task to become quite hard after you start doing it. There are of course low hanging fruit (Polymorph, Teleport, DCFS) but after that I bet Tier 1s will only be Tier 2s, like unto the Wu-Jen.

Edit: Oh and I actually play a Tier 3/4 campaign. Its quite fun if you want to beef it up some add in Tier 2 people but make sure they don't get any of their crazy powers. And PrCs should be watched carefully as a Rainbow Servant Beguiler is Tier 1.
Here's a list I use (I edited out the ones I don't use)


To the non homebrew options here:

Bard (Player's Handbook)
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Binder (Tome of Magic, WITHOUT the Online Vestiges)
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Crusader (Tome of Battle)
Swordsage (Tome of Battle)
Warblade (Tome of Battle)
Factotum (Dungeonscape)
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II)
Totemist (Magic of Incarnum)
Incarnate (Magic of Incarnum)
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Psychic Rogue (Online, see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b and http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c )
Wilder (Expanded Psionics Handbook, SRD)
Ardent (Complete Psionic)
Ranger (Wildshape variant Ranger, Unearthed Arcana, SRD)

That's the list I play with and of course anything that is of lower tier. And like I said PrCs and Tier 2s are totally fine but you have to watch them carefully.

[ThiagoMartell]

The idea maybe simple but the large amount of spells causes this task to become quite hard after you start doing it. There are of course low hanging fruit (Polymorph, Teleport, DCFS) but after that I bet Tier 1s will only be Tier 2s, like unto the Wu-Jen.
Not really. T1 and T2 are only T1 and T2 because they break the game. Remove all game breakers, and you end up with T3/T4 (or lower). It's a very long list of spells to ban, but it's still the easiest option, IMHO.
Well, it's the easiest option if you care enought about balance to do that. That was very rarely a problem in games I DMed.

[zlefin]

there's one in my sig which helps brings things a good bit closer; but i dno't think it quite gets all to tier 3; but if you can bring everything into a tier 2-4 range that generally plays well enough; check out the link either way, it's a good fix overall imho.

[etrpgb]

there's one in my sig which helps brings things a good bit closer; but i dno't think it quite gets all to tier 3; but if you can bring everything into a tier 2-4 range that generally plays well enough; check out the link either way, it's a good fix overall imho.
I am not sure, reading the monk vs wizard I am afraid the problems are still there. Wizard has the usual I-win buttons and the Monk has just pumped a little (however, very nice the concentration check to improve damage.)


About the first post... do anyone have the link to the factotum/monk hybrid?
It was link a factotum, but it got access to clerical spells and more ``monk''ish powers from the inspiration points.

[dspeyer]

There are a lot of homebrew base classes that are explicitly targeted at tier 3. There are even some collections of them. If you add them to the original tier 3s, you get a reasonably large set of options.

[Quellian-dyrae]

About the first post... do anyone have the link to the factotum/monk hybrid?
It was link a factotum, but it got access to clerical spells and more ``monk''ish powers from the inspiration points.

This one? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204698)

[etrpgb]

Yes, that one. I always thought the factotum was one of the best classes in the game. I love the idea of remaking the others starting from it.

Did you make something other class based on the same idea?

[Murg]

One possible fix would be to give XP/penalties bonuses based on the Tier, like:

Tier 1 needs 50% more XP to advance a level.
Tier 2 needs 25% more XP to advance a level.
Tier 3 no change.
Tier 4 needs 25% less XP to advance a level.
Tier 5 needs 50% less XP to advance a level.
Tier 6 needs 75% less XP to advance a level.

In a party of four 10th level players where everyone is Tier 3 the encounters would be balanced.

But in a party of four 10th level players where one player is Tier 1, two players are Tier 3, and one player is Tier 5 the Tier 1 guy will completely dominate every battle.

But if you use Tier-based XP bonus/penalties the party composition will be more like...

A party of four adventurers, one Tier 1 player at 8th level, two Tier 3 players at 10th level, one Tier 5 player at 12th level. In this situation no one character would dominate the battles.

Due to the self-correcting nature of the XP system the Tier 1 players could never fall too far behind and the high Tier characters could never get too far ahead.

If players multiclass between Tiers you'd just use whichever Tier they have more levels of. So a sorcerer 6/paladin 2 would be considered Tier 2 for XP bonuses/penalties.

I have started using a system similar to this and it seems to be working well so far.

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm not really sure this is necessary, for a number of reasons

1. The difference between tiers is generally relatively small, and you can have some degree of spread. My rule of thumb is fewer than three tiers and you'll probably be just fine. A beguiler should still be able to have fun and feel like he's contributing in a meaningful way even if he's partied with a sorcerer and a cleric.

2. Tier 3 is not the best Tier. None of them are. Every player will have their own personal preference.

3. The Tier system only really comes into play when people spend too much time online learning about minmaxing- A fireball wizard isn't going to be significantly better than a Weapon Focus fighter. Heck, my group *has* spent a lot of time online, and they still havn't quite gotten the hang of recognizing good feats from bad.

If you really want party harmony, your best bet is to discuss powerlevel with your group and get a sense of what everyone is looking for and then just have them build their characters with a common competence in mind. If the good optimizers rein themselves in while helping bring others up to par, you should be able to achieve balance with huge piles of houserules.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Yes, that one. I always thought the factotum was one of the best classes in the game. I love the idea of remaking the others starting from it.

Did you make something other class based on the same idea?

Swashbuckler, Soulknife, and Samurai. They're all in the same thread and linked in the first post.

[Gavinfoxx]

This link?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

[Big Fau]

Is there an homebrew D&D d20 variant wrote so that all classes are, as best as possible, Tier 3? I see there are many ``fixes'' around, but I missed something more coherent and comprehensive.

Beside ``fixes'' usually make useless classes a little more useful; In my experience players simply react saying: ``Uh? I am a wizard/incantrix, that fix does not touch me; who want to play a factotum/monk hybrid anyway?'.

Link and comments are very welcome.

There is. It's called 4E. Almost everyone in 4E is around Tier 4.

[shadow_archmagi]

There is. It's called 4E. Almost everyone in 4E is around Tier 4.

So *thats* why I can't stand 4e. Tier 4 isn't my style at all.

(I like 1-3, with 2 being my favorite)

[etrpgb]

There is. It's called 4E. Almost everyone in 4E is around Tier 4.

I disagree. I played both games, and a 4E game and a 3E game with a Rogue, a Barbarian, a Warmage and Adept is not like that. 4E is much more rigid and more tabletop-like game.

[Empedocles]

For spellcasting, divide up the casting roles:

Dread Necromancer and Beguiler (Heroes of Horror and PHB II), who will be your necromancer and illusionist/enchanter. That's even official material :smallbiggrin:

The Harbinger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244491) becomes your new diviner.

The Pathfinder Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner) is your conjuror. That is borderline Tier 3, but as long as you are fairly harsh when you convert from PF to 3.5 (conversions are minimal) you'll be fine.

You could do warmage (Complete Arcane) for the evoker...but that's actually Tier 4....

Next, limit the psionic classes to Wilder (possible Tier 2. Wether or not the wilder is tier 2 or 3 might be the most hotly debated tier for a class in 3.5 though...), Ardent, Psychic Warrior, and Psychic Rogue. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)

Now, if you want melee classes that don't use maneuvers and you don't hate the Zelda franchise...I made the chosen warrior, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13007726#post13007726) which is like a gishy bard-fighter.

I also have a sort of system overhall that more or less gets everyone in tier 3, condensed into the proteus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238419) base class. Comments are welcome :smallsmile::smallsmile: