Watching Star Trek. ALL of it.

[DiscipleofBob]

My current Netflix project is to watch all the Star Trek ever. Or at least everything I don't have to actually make an effort to look for, which is convenient since Netflix has all five series right now.

Finished original Gen, and I've got to say, not nearly as bad as I was expecting. The acting was campy at times, but often I found it appropriate. Not exactly subtle mind you, but I'm a fan of the overdramatic almost shakespearian acting style of that era. It's certainly preferable to some male model looking wistfully at the camera and calling that "emotion." The only thing I mind was how reused the plots were. Mind control or godlike beings most of the time. Kind of got old after a while. But the good news is I finally get why Spock's a badass.

Currently, I've only had to skip one episode due to how bad it was, and it wasn't original Gen, or even the first season of Next Gen. No, in second season Next Gen, the episode with the smug "rogue" (as the crew calls him) Han Solo knock-off. I couldn't bring myself to watch more than ten minutes of that guy. The "dashing rogue" archetype only works when everyone in-universe hates the guy so he seems more of an underdog to the audience. When everyone keeps commenting on what a lovable rogue he is, he's less Han Solo and more that guy in high school who seduces your girlfriend in front of you. Ugh.

Other than that, meets most of my expectations. Hate Wesley Crusher most of the time. Plots get better after Riker grows a goatee. Feel really bad for Tasha Yar's death, if only because I get the feeling there was a lot more to her story. No one will ever figure out how to use the holodeck properly without nearly killing everyone. Everything with Q is awesome. Good stuff. On season 2 of 7, so this'll obviously take a while.

I'll probably skip most of the movies. I've heard they're mostly forgettable. I'll pick up Wrath of Kahn, First Contact, and Nemesis at some point just because those are the ones I've heard the most about, good or bad.

[hamlet]

Congratulations! You've readily identified the absolute worst Star Trek TNG episode EVER.

The Fabulous Okana.

It's almost enough to make you give up on the show, but starting about season 3, things really do improve dramatically.

Then comes DS9, and your socks will be knocked off.

[McStabbington]

The only movies that really should be watched are 2, 3, 4, 6 and First Contact so you can see both information pertinent to the Borg and why the Borg eventually faceplant in Voyager.

But yeah, Season 3 and 4 of TNG are not only the best seasons of Trek since Season 2 of TOS, but they're some of the best seasons of science fiction writing ever. In terms of writing, I'd put them up there with the first season of Twilight Zone, Season 2 of Babylon 5 or Season 1 of BSG. They're that consistently well written.

[hamlet]

ST Generations (the first TNG movie) should also be watched. It's better than folks give it credit for. Better than III, on par with IV and vastly superior to V.

But, yeah, definitive Trek movies is II and VI.

And don't think hard about the evil plan too hard in First Contact. It falls apart under the least bit of scrutiny.


EDIT: Also, Nemesis is the worst pro Star Trek movie EVER. Skip it. For the love of God skip it.

[Cikomyr]

Your mind will be blown by DS9. First season wasn't nearly as bad as TNG's, and it really picks up quickly.

Although be prepares to be puzzled by the fact that the Maquis storyline is born, played, and concluded in DS9 while it was created solely to set up Voyager, who struggled to do half a dozen episodes about it!!

[Cikomyr]

Congratulations! You've readily identified the absolute worst Star Trek TNG episode EVER.

The Fabulous Okana.

It's almost enough to make you give up on the show, but starting about season 3, things really do improve dramatically.

Then comes DS9, and your socks will be knocked off.

Outrageous Okona

Do a quick search of "Outrageous Okona Sfdebris" if you want derivative entertainment at it's finest

[arguskos]

Yeah, The Outrageous Okona is incredibly terrible. So is Shades of Grey, if you haven't gotten there yet.

Also, in case you were unaware, Star Trek: The Animated Series is also available on Netflix. You might as well watch that one too. It takes place after TOS and before TNG.

Oh, and I've done what you're doing. Well done, sir, I approve. An excellent use of your time and energy! :smallbiggrin:

[DiscipleofBob]

ST Generations (the first TNG movie) should also be watched. It's better than folks give it credit for. Better than III, on par with IV and vastly superior to V.

I've seen Generations. Not completely terrible, but had enough wall-banger moments.

Was it revenge that Kirk got buried the same way every redshirt in Original did?

[hamlet]

Outrageous Okona

Do a quick search of "Outrageous Okona Sfdebris" if you want derivative entertainment at it's finest

I stand corrected on the name.

Still one of the worst episodes out there. Right alongside Voyager's super newts at warp 10 episode and TOS's "Spock's Brain."

[Serpentine]

Neat! Good idea, I'd love to do that sometime.

[DiscipleofBob]

The only time I cringed during original Gen was the Rome episode.

I remember reading about how it was an important episode not just in Star Trek but in television history for having the first on-screen interracial kiss ever. Even if they were being forced to do so.

Then the whipping started and I commenced the cringing. :smalleek:

Had to remind myself what year these episodes were made in.

[Silkspinner]

Except for the film with Spock's brother, I actually love all the original Trek movies, especially the one with the Whales. You have to watch that one.

On the flipside, I really can't stand most of the Next Gen films. Even those I can tolerate don't even come close to the original trek films.

As for series, hated most of the original, was raised on Next Gen and still enjoy it, DS9 is pure awesome, especially once the war starts, but Voyager... I was all into it when I was 15. Now going on 30 I can't stomach a single episode. Except those featuring Kes. For some reason I've always had a total crush on Jennifer Lien. 7 of 9 is there purely for the hots, which she has, I'll grant, but, as they say, one I would marry, the other I'd just take to bed.

I kind of liked Star Trek: Enterprise, though by the time it came around I was pretty much out of my teen trekkie stage and didn't really have the interest to pursue it past the 1st season.

Now as for that new Star Trek film that came out a year or three ago? Hated every moment of it. Basically it was nothing but nerd wish fulfillment. A trekkie wet dream.

That they seriously made a film that had little to do with the actual trek universe, just putting in everything that would make little geeks squirm and have 'gasms, fills me with contempt. I mean, really? We could do that with every franchise. Just get something super popular and change alter its basic concepts so that we can have storyless awesomeness, YAY!

Seriously, are our movies going to go the comic book route? Whenever things get old or overdone we just alternative universe everything?

Please.

[hamlet]

If you think that first movie was bad, just wait till you hear about the villain of the 2nd movie.

[Aotrs Commander]

Congratulations! You've readily identified the absolute worst Star Trek TNG episode EVER.

The Fabulous Okana.

It's almost enough to make you give up on the show, but starting about season 3, things really do improve dramatically.

Then comes DS9, and your socks will be knocked off.

Actually, I thought the worst was about the third episode of next Gen (edit, no sorry, on wiki, it was the eight "Justice"), the one with the paradise planet of half-naked people and the floating space-ship god. Me, my Mum and my Dad all thought that was the very worst for various reasons.

Though I think Okana was definately one of the ones I'd only watched once - I think because I found it forgettable rather than offensive. Of course, I'm going back a good few years (recorded off telly and later proper videos), like, to not far off when it was first aired in the UK. We had them on video for years, and it was during the time everyone watched and rewatched 'em - I could usually identify an episode in the first thirty seconds, at my peak. Unfortunately, my sisters watched all the comedy episodes so much to death, such that I don't find them funny anymore, unfortunately.

Oddly enough, we all lost interest in DS9 at the last season (though I did watch the finale), despite all the potential starship battles.

But then again, I really enjoyed Enterprise, so you may all look upon me with scorn...

And, even worse, I actually liked Star Trek V and found it hilarious, and far from the worst of the bunch - which sadly I must lay at the door of Next Gen (lookin' at you Generations and IX). (I liked V more than III, actually.) I still crack up at the slap-stick now.

[Silkspinner]

Y'know what's funny? I lost interest in last season of DS9 around that time as well. It just seemed to suddenly lose its magic.


If you think that first movie was bad, just wait till you hear about the villain of the 2nd movie.
Oh lord...

[MammonAzrael]

Once you get to it, are you planning on watching TNG, DS9, and Voyager as chronologically appropriate, or will you just be going through one show after the next?

[Silkspinner]

It's funny, talking about Star Trek now. It's like some say about their ex; You can remember it being special at the time, but now that you think back you can't recall what you saw in it.

[Yora]

It's almost enough to make you give up on the show, but starting about season 3, things really do improve dramatically.
Once you reached 3rd season of TNG, you have the worst behind you. There's still weak seasons and bad episodes later, but it will never get that bad again. :smallbiggrin:

[Cikomyr]

Once you reached 3rd season of TNG, you have the worst behind you. There's still weak seasons and bad episodes later, but it will never get that bad again. :smallbiggrin:

I still have to mention "Mask" :smallbiggrin:

Probably less painful than "Profit and Laces"

[hamlet]

I still have to mention "Mask" :smallbiggrin:

Probably less painful than "Profit and Laces"

I liked Provid and Lace. Not because it's good, but just because Armin Shimmerman in a dress is worth the price of admission.

[Cikomyr]

I liked Provid and Lace. Not because it's good, but just because Armin Shimmerman in a dress is worth the price of admission.

It wasn't worth my psychiatric bills :smalleek:

[hamlet]

Sissy.:smalltongue:

If that's enough to frighten you . . .

[Lateral]

Now as for that new Star Trek film that came out a year or three ago? Hated every moment of it. Basically it was nothing but nerd wish fulfillment. A trekkie wet dream.

That they seriously made a film that had little to do with the actual trek universe, just putting in everything that would make little geeks squirm and have 'gasms, fills me with contempt. I mean, really? We could do that with every franchise. Just get something super popular and change alter its basic concepts so that we can have storyless awesomeness, YAY!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA why am I the first one to call you out on this.

No, it's not. It's pretty much anything but "nerd wish fulfillment." Trekkies and nerds are almost always the ones who hate it, because it doesn't have the style, plot subtlety, or philosophical ideas that the original shows had. And frankly, I'm incredibly offended at the way you talk about 'geeks and Trekkies' (both of which I am quite proud to call myself, thank you very much.) :smallannoyed:

(Personally, I liked it okay, but it certainly isn't Star Trek in any meaningful sense.)

[hamlet]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA why am I the first one to call you out on this.

No, it's not. It's pretty much anything but "nerd wish fulfillment." Trekkies and nerds are almost always the ones who hate it, because it doesn't have the style, plot subtlety, or philosophical ideas that the original shows had. And frankly, I'm incredibly offended at the way you talk about 'geeks and Trekkies' (both of which I am quite proud to call myself, thank you very much.) :smallannoyed:

(Personally, I liked it okay, but it certainly isn't Star Trek in any meaningful sense.)

It's still, objectively, a bad movie independent of it's merits as Trek material.

JJ Abrahms needs to be locked in a closet somewhere.

[comicshorse]

Congratulations! You've readily identified the absolute worst Star Trek TNG episode EVER.

The Fabulous Okana.



What even worse than the one with the 'comedy' Irish settlers

[TheEmerged]

RE: "Rome" episode of TOS. Hmm, you might be confusing an episode or three here. The first inter-racial kiss was Plato's Stepchildren, decidedly Greek. I don't remember a whipping scene but that might be my geek mind pushing it out. The more infamous whipping scene was the one on the Nazi setplanet. There was another episode that took place on the Rome setplanet that had some charms.

[Yora]

I still have to mention "Mask" :smallbiggrin:

Probably less painful than "Profit and Laces"
If you want to see good star trek, watch only DS9 and only the episodes about bajorans, cardassians, and the dominion. With that, you have filtered out at least 98% of the garbage.

[Ravens_cry]

If you want to see good star trek, watch only DS9 and only the episodes about bajorans, cardassians, and the dominion. With that, you have filtered out at least 98% of the garbage.
If you are not getting at least some Picard goodness, I think you are missing out on a hell of a lot.

[MammonAzrael]

If you are not getting at least some Picard goodness, I think you are missing out on a hell of a lot.

Technically you can watch the series pilot to get some Picard. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Technically you can watch the series pilot to get some Picard. :smalltongue:
Not enough Picard goodness, though it is a good example of what Picard goodness is; you can feel his comfortableness at dealing with a man who was there when he was subverted and perverted by the Borg, who lost much at Wold 359.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's still, objectively, a bad movie independent of it's merits as Trek material.

JJ Abrahms needs to be locked in a closet somewhere.

Objectively, no, it is not. Given it's popularity and that a great number of people, myself included really enjoyed it. Subjectively, yes, in your opinion.

[DiscipleofBob]

Can we not get into whether or not the remake was a good movie or not here?

That little debate's already taken over a completely different thread.

Currently watching the episode with Data's "grandpa."

[Aotrs Commander]

Can we not get into whether or not the remake was a good movie or not here?

That little debate's already taken over a completely different thread.

Okay, I shall say no more on the subject.

[DiscipleofBob]

New topic:

For all of the early campiness of the series, godlike beings recreating Earth's history and such, how much gets preserved in continuity for the rest of the series?

Is there still a planet modeled after Prohibition-era Chicago, Ancient Rome, and the old West in later series?

[Jaros]

New topic:

For all of the early campiness of the series, godlike beings recreating Earth's history and such, how much gets preserved in continuity for the rest of the series?

Is there still a planet modeled after Prohibition-era Chicago, Ancient Rome, and the old West in later series?

Nope. Or if there are we never see them.

Edit: Superbeing alien thingies ('fuzzy blobs' as my parents called them) pop up a few times in different forms (or from a certain point of view you can consider them as such). Can't remember much on The Crystalline Entity but I always considered that to be in the same vein, and then you have Q of course.

[Traab]

Nope. Or if there are we never see them.

Edit: Superbeing alien thingies ('fuzzy blobs' as my parents called them) pop up a few times in different forms (or from a certain point of view you can consider them as such). Can't remember much on The Crystalline Entity but I always considered that to be in the same vein, and then you have Q of course.

I still say one of my favorite tng episodes was the one where the terraforming crew on a planet were being killed, and it turned out to be because of a silicon based life form. It eventually grew big enough to communicate and kept calling them, "Ugly, ugly, giant bags of mostly water."

[Gnoman]

The Old West was pure illusion anyway. The other two were contamination (the gangster planet) and an absurd degree of parallel development (rome). Neither is seen on film, but both show up in licensed works. (One TNG novel has a ship entirely crewed by the Romans, which have since joined the Federation, while a security guard in the SCE novellas is from the gangster planet, which has since joined the Federation.)

[Lateral]

There was one episode that was a casino, though. Also a trashy book.

[Rockphed]

The Old West was pure illusion anyway. The other two were contamination (the gangster planet) and an absurd degree of parallel development (rome). Neither is seen on film, but both show up in licensed works. (One TNG novel has a ship entirely crewed by the Romans, which have since joined the Federation, while a security guard in the SCE novellas is from the gangster planet, which has since joined the Federation.)

Heh, Kirk was right. They did want a piece of the action.

Also, me and my wife just started watching Trek, and the first thing my wife said was "my word William Shatner was hot".

[Zevox]

Ironically, I'm sort of doing this as well. Not watching all of Star Trek, but I'm someone who had never seen any Star Trek anything before, until several months ago I noticed the shows were available for streaming on Netflix. After asking a friend who is a fan which series I should start with, I started watching The Next Generation (helped to know that that was the one with Q, since I loved Discord in My Little Pony - and yes, I've been enjoying his episodes quite a bit). Been going slowly, and I'm still only on late season 4 in spite of having start months ago. I find I agree that the series picks up in season 3 and 4 though.

Though honestly, I don't find myself hating Wesley as much as others say they do. Oh he was awful in the early episodes, no doubt about it, but once they made him an official member of the crew he got better - partially because he got less screen time after that, but still, even the screen time he did get for the most part wasn't nearly as bad. Though I did get pretty annoyed at the repeated teasing that he'd be leaving the ship for the academy only to come up with an excuse to keep him around. I have passed the episode where he actually does leave for the academy though, so at least that did eventually happen.

Zevox

[Ninjadeadbeard]

The Old West was pure illusion anyway. The other two were contamination (the gangster planet) and an absurd degree of parallel development (rome). Neither is seen on film, but both show up in licensed works. (One TNG novel has a ship entirely crewed by the Romans, which have since joined the Federation, while a security guard in the SCE novellas is from the gangster planet, which has since joined the Federation.)

Whatever happened to the Nazi planet? What happens when the Nazis get Warp Drives and ask to join the Federation? Awkward, I'd say.

[DiscipleofBob]

Whatever happened to the Nazi planet? What happens when the Nazis get Warp Drives and ask to join the Federation? Awkward, I'd say.

I'm pretty sure Naziism was on the way out by the time Kirk was done with the planet.

Prime Directive: It's really more of a guideline anyway.

[Hands_Of_Blue]

Yeah, The Outrageous Okona is incredibly terrible. So is Shades of Grey, if you haven't gotten there yet.
While Shades of Gray is a terrible episode, it is terrible because of the real life Writer's Strike at the time. So at least there is a reason.

But the episode does have one thing going for it, it is the last apperance of Doctor Katherine Pulaski.

[Silkspinner]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA why am I the first one to call you out on this.

No, it's not. It's pretty much anything but "nerd wish fulfillment." Trekkies and nerds are almost always the ones who hate it, because it doesn't have the style, plot subtlety, or philosophical ideas that the original shows had. And frankly, I'm incredibly offended at the way you talk about 'geeks and Trekkies' (both of which I am quite proud to call myself, thank you very much.) :smallannoyed:

(Personally, I liked it okay, but it certainly isn't Star Trek in any meaningful sense.)
{Scrubbed}

This film was total fanfic and literally every trekkie I know was drooling over it.

Only thing we didn't have was a McCoy/Spock bromance. Maybe the second, eh?

[Omergideon]

Not enough Picard goodness, though it is a good example of what Picard goodness is; you can feel his comfortableness at dealing with a man who was there when he was subverted and perverted by the Borg, who lost much at Wold 359.

There is never enough Picard goodness in the show. Except for the fact the other TNG characters are good too I would be happy with the Picard Show.

[hamlet]

What even worse than the one with the 'comedy' Irish settlers

Much worse.

[Silkspinner]

The Irish one was made up for by the wee lass with the hottest accent I've ever heard.

[Ravens_cry]

There is never enough Picard goodness in the show. Except for the fact the other TNG characters are good too I would be happy with the Picard Show.
Picard Goodness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3rFNbSKpEE).

[Gnoman]

Whatever happened to the Nazi planet? What happens when the Nazis get Warp Drives and ask to join the Federation? Awkward, I'd say.

That was a case of deliberate engineering by a renegade Federation sociologist. While I don't recall any later references to it, I find unlikey that the Federation would not try to clean up their mess.

@Lateral

The casino planet in TNG was pure illusion created for the benefit of a crashed Earthman. After the end of the episode, the illusion was no longer being maintained.

[Ravens_cry]

'Cleaning up' their own mess would be difficult as it in itself would mean breaking the Prime Directive unless you did it very slowly and carefully.
Still, I doubt a NAZI planet would really be all that interested in joining the Federation, but they aren't likely to be interested into being buddy-buddies woth the other Quadrant powers either.
They'd probably piss off the Klingons or somebody else and get wiped out/enslaved.
Sometimes a problem is its own solution.:smallamused:

[Lateral]

@Lateral

The casino planet in TNG was pure illusion created for the benefit of a crashed Earthman. After the end of the episode, the illusion was no longer being maintained.

Well aware. It was still pretty cool.

[Gnoman]

'Cleaning up' their own mess would be difficult as it in itself would mean breaking the Prime Directive unless you did it very slowly and carefully.
Still, I doubt a NAZI planet would really be all that interested in joining the Federation, but they aren't likely to be interested into being buddy-buddies woth the other Quadrant powers either.
They'd probably piss off the Klingons or somebody else and get wiped out/enslaved.
Sometimes a problem is its own solution.:smallamused:

At some point, a society is so contaminated that the Prime Directive no longer really applies. Also not that this would be the TOS PD, not the asinine version used in later series.

[Traab]

Quick survey, is, Outrageous Okona from TNG worse than the Voyager episode Threshold? For those who dont know, its the episode where tom paris breaks warp ten, achieving "infinite velocity" and he and janeway turn into salamanders that have kids.

[Gnoman]

The former is canon. The latter is arguably not.

[Lateral]

Threshold

There is no such episode.
Shut up! Let me dream! *sobs*

[Traab]

The former is canon. The latter is arguably not.

I dont see how it is arguable that it isnt canon. Despite the fact that nothing comes of it. Or that they never mention it again. Or that they stop trying to go faster safely. Or that it made no sense. Or... never mind, it never happened.

[McStabbington]

I dunno. I think there actually is worse in TNG than Outrageous Okana (The Child still has to be my all-time low point. Making light of space rape is just . . . not cool), whereas I can't think of a lower ebb to Voyager than Threshold. Even the space rapiest episode of Voyager (Blood Fever) is still significantly better than Threshold. And it was never later explicitly stated within the series to have never happened.

So I'm going to have to say that TOO is slightly better than Threshold, but both are better than The Child.

[Yora]

I think we should revive the project of classifiying all star trek episodes ever by plot. Spacerape wasn't even on my list the last time.

I don't think I've ever seen Threshold, it was probably after I stoped watching Voyager. And I certainly won't. :smallbiggrin:

[Gamerlord]

I dont see how it is arguable that it isnt canon. Despite the fact that nothing comes of it. Or that they never mention it again. Or that they stop trying to go faster safely. Or that it made no sense. Or... never mind, it never happened.
I'm pretty certain in a later episode Tom Paris outright stated he never got to warp ten, so even the creators don't think it is canon.

[GloatingSwine]

Once you reached 3rd season of TNG, you have the worst behind you. There's still weak seasons and bad episodes later, but it will never get that bad again. :smallbiggrin:

At least until Voyager.

[Cikomyr]

I'm pretty certain in a later episode Tom Paris outright stated he never got to warp ten, so even the creators don't think it is canon.

Some of the most anal Trek Lorists I know would claim that it's not proof that the episode isn't canon, but simply that Tom Paris made a mistake.

I prefer to live in a universe where hope exists. So Threshold never existed.

[Zarrgon]

New topic:

For all of the early campiness of the series, godlike beings recreating Earth's history and such, how much gets preserved in continuity for the rest of the series?

Is there still a planet modeled after Prohibition-era Chicago, Ancient Rome, and the old West in later series?


Well, you just can't get the camp out of Star Trek. Though they did reuse the classics, you got plenty of '90's stuff' like: That Scotland planet where Dr. Crusher got the Killer Candle with the Ghost inside it, The Masterpiece Society 'bio dome', that just like 1990's Earth planet where Riker is trapped in ER and Lilith(from Cheers) tries to rape him, The Amish World where damaged data ends up with the radiation rocks, and lots of 'oh we destroyed our environment(don't do this to Earth wink, wink) planets.

And Enterprise did have Nazis....and the Old West.....and plenty of 'gangster space thugs'.

[Lord Seth]

Outrageous Okona

Do a quick search of "Outrageous Okona Sfdebris" if you want derivative entertainment at it's finestHonestly, pretty much any review by SF Debris is worth watching.

Though I'm surprised that I don't think anyone has thrown out "A Night in Sickbay" as a candidate for worst Star Trek episode ever.

[Reverent-One]

Honestly, pretty much any review by SF Debris is worth watching.

Though I'm surprised that I don't think anyone has thrown out "A Night in Sickbay" as a candidate for worst Star Trek episode ever.

Probably has something to do with not being known as well, being an Enterprise episode. Also may be because it seems to be loved as well as hated, as it did get nominated for a Hugo Award.

[Velaryon]

New topic:

For all of the early campiness of the series, godlike beings recreating Earth's history and such, how much gets preserved in continuity for the rest of the series?

Is there still a planet modeled after Prohibition-era Chicago, Ancient Rome, and the old West in later series?

Various Trek novels and other sources tie things together sometimes. There's a pretty good TNG novel called Q Squared where Trelane (a villain with Q-like levels of power from an original Trek episode who was eventually revealed to be a child and reined in by his apologetic parents) is retconned to be a Q who becomes so powerful he can override the rest of the Continuum. TNG's Q barely escapes and has to try and hold together the multiple alternate universes Trelane starts smashing together, with the help of the TNG crew.

As for the Prohibition-era planet from the original series, the NES Star Trek game involved that planet. It turns out that the communicator left behind by McCoy resulted in a huge leap forward technologically for the people of this planet, and they ended up being completely wiped out by nuclear war or some such thing. The Enterprise does some kind of time travel stuff to go back in time and grab the communicator so that the Prime Directive isn't violated and the culture's annihilation is prevented.

[Lord Seth]

Probably has something to do with not being known as well, being an Enterprise episode. Also may be because it seems to be loved as well as hated, as it did get nominated for a Hugo Award.I don't think I've ever seen anyone say anything positive about that episode. I half wonder if maybe they just made it a nomination as a joke, knowing it wasn't going to win.

[Cikomyr]

Various Trek novels and other sources tie things together sometimes. There's a pretty good TNG novel called Q Squared where Trelane (a villain with Q-like levels of power from an original Trek episode who was eventually revealed to be a child and reined in by his apologetic parents) is retconned to be a Q who becomes so powerful he can override the rest of the Continuum. TNG's Q barely escapes and has to try and hold together the multiple alternate universes Trelane starts smashing together, with the help of the TNG crew.

Hey. The Q are pretty easy to beat once you figure out their weakness.

Muskets.

[Traab]

Hey. The Q are pretty easy to beat once you figure out their weakness.

Muskets that cause supernovas.

Fixed that for you.

[DiscipleofBob]

Just say the Shades of Grey episode that several people here warned me about.

Other than being a generic clip show, I didn't see what was so wrong with it.

I'm glad to see Dr. Pulaski go. I didn't dislike her, but she just didn't gel with the rest of the crew's chemistry, which is steadily improving as a whole as the show continues.

The episode I currently finished, well, let's just say me and the wife spent the rest of the evening shouting "Glory to the Picard!"

Something I'm pretty sure never happened but I'd want to see: an episode with Q and Troi's mom trolling Picard at the same time.

[comicshorse]

The episode I currently finished, well, let's just say me and the wife spent the rest of the evening shouting "Glory to the Picard!"

Something I'm pretty sure never happened but I'd want to see: an episode with Q and Troi's mom trolling Picard at the same time.

One of the Star Trek novel, 'Q in law', pretty much has that.

[Ravens_cry]

One of the Star Trek novel, 'Q in law', pretty much has that.
Oh yes.:smallbiggrin:
One is an omnipotent being for whom the very mention of their name sends shivers down what pass for spines of half the galaxy . . .and the other is a member of the Q Continuum.

[Lord Seth]

Just say the Shades of Grey episode that several people here warned me about.

Other than being a generic clip show, I didn't see what was so wrong with it.Because even by clip show standards it was weak. The clips are all just thrown at us without any real rhyme or reason. Clip shows usually at least try to have some kind of structure outside of a bunch of random ones.

That was something that really annoyed me when I first watched it. You see all these clips that look like they might be interesting, but no context is ever offered for them. Picard and Riker are about to blow up the Enterprise? Wow, that seems interesting! But why? What was happening? You never get told, you just see a clip of them doing that.

If we had been given better contexts I think it would've been better. Like maybe having there be a personnel review for everyone going over the most important things they had done while on the ship. That would've allowed for much better context and could've even worked as a character episode rather than just a bunch of random clips that happened to involve Riker.

[doliest]

I've never actually watched most of TNG- when I went through it, I cherry-picked episodes I'd heard were quite good and skipped through the rest. So, it'll be interesting to hear a summary of the series from someone who actually watched the whole thing.

Also, I find it one of the greatest tragedies of the franchise that Kate Mulgrew was stuck with Voyager.

[Turcano]

Though honestly, I don't find myself hating Wesley as much as others say they do.

I don't really hate Wesley all that much either, mainly because most of my hatred is reserved for Reginald Barclay, King of the Sperglords. At least Wesley had the excuse of being a child.

[McStabbington]

I've never actually watched most of TNG- when I went through it, I cherry-picked episodes I'd heard were quite good and skipped through the rest. So, it'll be interesting to hear a summary of the series from someone who actually watched the whole thing.

Also, I find it one of the greatest tragedies of the franchise that Kate Mulgrew was stuck with Voyager.

I've never gotten the hatred for Kate myself. Admittedly, I've heard that behind the scenes, she wasn't gelling with the rest of the crew and wanted scripts that made Janeway a Mary Sue, but I've never really seen evidence of it. What I do see is a character actor trying hard week in and week out to make a silk purse out of whatever ear she gets tossed by the writers that week. As such, they're the ones I find fault with, not her.

[doliest]

I've never gotten the hatred for Kate myself. Admittedly, I've heard that behind the scenes, she wasn't gelling with the rest of the crew and wanted scripts that made Janeway a Mary Sue, but I've never really seen evidence of it. What I do see is a character actor trying hard week in and week out to make a silk purse out of whatever ear she gets tossed by the writers that week. As such, they're the ones I find fault with, not her.

I very much agree-as I said, it's a tragedy that such a fine actress got stuck with an awful show. Comparatively, I don't weep at all for Scott Bakula, who was handed crap, and, frankly, turned in a crap performance. He couldn't save the character, obviously, but unlike Mulgrew he didn't even try.

[Devonix]

I don't really hate Wesley all that much either, mainly because most of my hatred is reserved for Reginald Barclay, King of the Sperglords. At least Wesley had the excuse of being a child.

You take that back! Barclay was a prince.

[hamlet]

I very much agree-as I said, it's a tragedy that such a fine actress got stuck with an awful show. Comparatively, I don't weep at all for Scott Bakula, who was handed crap, and, frankly, turned in a crap performance. He couldn't save the character, obviously, but unlike Mulgrew he didn't even try.

Voyager and Enterprise had, largely, the same problems. Bad writing, being produced by UPN, and the involvement of people who admitted point blank that they never actually liked Star Trek to begin with.

But yes, at least Mulgrew attempted to salvage the fertilizer she was handed, which is true of everybody on that show. They just never gelled as a crew and the writing was so uneven it was barely a show.

Enterprise . . . well . . . I get the impression that it suffered largely from the people running things thinking that if they just slapped the Star Trek name on it all the idiots would come running to throw money at it. And they were proven right in a lot of ways.

[DiscipleofBob]

I've never actually watched most of TNG- when I went through it, I cherry-picked episodes I'd heard were quite good and skipped through the rest. So, it'll be interesting to hear a summary of the series from someone who actually watched the whole thing.

Also, I find it one of the greatest tragedies of the franchise that Kate Mulgrew was stuck with Voyager.

I could do a summary I suppose. I'd have to do some backpedaling to cover what I've already watched, but I think that's very doable.

And Voyager's the one series I've actually seen quite a few episodes of, and I've liked what I've seen. I never understood the hate towards it. Tom Paris happens to be so far my favorite character in the series, at least once he gets over the angst early on.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't really hate Wesley all that much either, mainly because most of my hatred is reserved for Reginald Barclay, King of the Sperglords. At least Wesley had the excuse of being a child.
I rather like ol' Reg. In a world where the Captain matches wits with an omnipotent being who some might be willing to call a god, he is a bumbling, fumbling sad clown of a character.
Much more human in many ways.

[Traab]

I rather like ol' Reg. In a world where the Captain matches wits with an omnipotent being who some might be willing to call a god, he is a bumbling, fumbling sad clown of a character.
Much more human in many ways.

Personally, I dont understand how the hell he even got stationed on a starship considering all his issues. Let alone the frigging flagship of the federation.

[GloatingSwine]

I've never gotten the hatred for Kate myself. Admittedly, I've heard that behind the scenes, she wasn't gelling with the rest of the crew and wanted scripts that made Janeway a Mary Sue, but I've never really seen evidence of it. What I do see is a character actor trying hard week in and week out to make a silk purse out of whatever ear she gets tossed by the writers that week. As such, they're the ones I find fault with, not her.

No-one can play a character like Janeway and not be tainted by the evil. I bet Mulgrew still occasionally wakes up thinking "How can I make Harry Kim suffer today?" before she realises that it wasn't real, it was all a TV show...

[Joran]

Personally, I dont understand how the hell he even got stationed on a starship considering all his issues. Let alone the frigging flagship of the federation.

He apparently was a hell of an engineer and came highly recommended by Captain Gleason of the U.S.S. Zhukov. Of course, maybe Captain Gleason was trying to get Barclay off of his ship...

[Traab]

He apparently was a hell of an engineer and came highly recommended by Captain Gleason of the U.S.S. Zhukov. Of course, maybe Captain Gleason was trying to get Barclay off of his ship...

Oh im not denying that he was really smart, he came up with a number of excellent out of the box solutions in his career. But you have to balance that with his stuttering, his nerves, his decided bent towards addiction, basically, you have to be gregory house levels of good in order to get away with negatives like that. And even if you can, I dont think the flagship of the federation is the best place for a brilliant young man with a lot of personal issues.

[Agent 451]

I prefer to live in a universe where hope exists. So Threshold never existed.

That pretty much sums up my entire opinion of Enterprise. Sure, there were a sporadic few good episodes, but on the other hand we had "These are the Voyages..."

I prefer the idea that Enterprise never actually happened in the Prime universe. Everything we saw never technically existed since it occurred in some quasi-parallel timeline with the sole purpose of erasing the majority of itself from history. Thank you Temporal Cold War.

Edit: The part of threshold I especially loved was when they just abandon Tom and Janeways salamander babies in their little burrow and warp away.

[Ravens_cry]

Oh im not denying that he was really smart, he came up with a number of excellent out of the box solutions in his career. But you have to balance that with his stuttering, his nerves, his decided bent towards addiction, basically, you have to be gregory house levels of good in order to get away with negatives like that. And even if you can, I dont think the flagship of the federation is the best place for a brilliant young man with a lot of personal issues.
That's what Councillor Bosom . . . I mean Troi was for.
Jellico may have been an ass, but ordering Troi into a proper Starfleet uniform was the best decision he ever made.

[Gnoman]

Thing I hated about Enterprise is that it had so much wasted potential. It was in the right time period for the Romulan War, was an ideal platform for the sort of cowboy freewheeling that a lot of folks liked about TOS, and had, on the surface, a pretty neat collection of characters. If only they'd gotten some decent writers, or stole plot elements from the better novels.

[Agent 451]

Yeah. Although they had said that if the show continued for a fifth season they would have gone deeper into the Romulan War bit.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah. Although they had said that if the show continued for a fifth season they would have gone deeper into the Romulan War bit.
That would have been cool if done right; the Romulan War was one of the pivotal back story moments in Star Trek.

[Agent 451]

If it were done well it could have been good, but I think it would have fallen into the "too many villains (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Undeveloped_Star_Trek:_Enterprise_episodes#Propose d_fifth_season_episodes)" trap. And then it would get cancelled midway through the Romulan War story arc :smallfrown:

[Traab]

If it were done well it could have been good, but I think it would have fallen into the "too many villains (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Undeveloped_Star_Trek:_Enterprise_episodes#Propose d_fifth_season_episodes)" trap. And then it would get cancelled midway through the Romulan War story arc :smallfrown:


Borg Queen origin storyEdit

Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens pitched a story with Alice Krige as a Starfleet medical technician who makes contact with the Borg from Season 2's ("Regeneration") and becomes the Borg Queen. [7]

On the other hand, maybe it WAS a good thing it got cancelled.

[Turcano]

You take that back! Barclay was a prince.

I stand by my neurological slur.


Oh im not denying that he was really smart, he came up with a number of excellent out of the box solutions in his career. But you have to balance that with his stuttering, his nerves, his decided bent towards addiction, basically, you have to be gregory house levels of good in order to get away with negatives like that. And even if you can, I dont think the flagship of the federation is the best place for a brilliant young man with a lot of personal issues.

Don't forget the whole "lives in a fantasy world on the holodeck with real people as characters fellating his ego" thing.

[doliest]

Oh im not denying that he was really smart, he came up with a number of excellent out of the box solutions in his career. But you have to balance that with his stuttering, his nerves, his decided bent towards addiction, basically, you have to be gregory house levels of good in order to get away with negatives like that. And even if you can, I dont think the flagship of the federation is the best place for a brilliant young man with a lot of personal issues.

You mean the flagship that has a seat for the therapist right next to the captain?

But in all seriousness, stuttering and nerves aren't really that big an issue, and the man is pleasant enough beyond them, so I'd imagine most people will over look them when it comes to a job.

Besides, given what the Enterprise runs into regularly- god-like beings, anomalies, unknown life forms etc, I'd want the brilliant and creative neurotic over the skilled but ordinary sane man.

[Traab]

I stand by my neurological slur.



Don't forget the whole "lives in a fantasy world on the holodeck with real people as characters fellating his ego" thing.

I think that was post tng that happened, and barcley was off the enterprise and on a space station, where a potentially unstable genius should be. Not on the &^%&$ front lines of every confrontation and near apocalypse the enterprise met with daily. Or at least, it happened in that voyager episode where he figured out a way to contact voyager while being chased by an admiral and a dozen security guards.

[Androgeus]

I think that was post tng that happened, and barcley was off the enterprise and on a space station, where a potentially unstable genius should be. Not on the &^%&$ front lines of every confrontation and near apocalypse the enterprise met with daily. Or at least, it happened in that voyager episode where he figured out a way to contact voyager while being chased by an admiral and a dozen security guards.

Erm his first episode on TNG was all about him using the holodeck to live out ego trips. (edit: Hollow Pursuits (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hollow_Pursuits_%28episode%29) if you wanted to know the episode)
Weren't holodecks just starting to be added to starships at the start of TNG? This could explain why no one knew he would the holodeck in this fashion.

[Traab]

Erm his first episode on TNG was all about him using the holodeck to live out ego trips. (edit: Hollow Pursuits (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hollow_Pursuits_%28episode%29) if you wanted to know the episode)
Weren't holodecks just starting to be added to starships at the start of TNG? This could explain why no one knew he would the holodeck in this fashion.

Meh, I forgot about that one I guess. I knew he had a holodeck addiction at some point, and I remembered the voyager episode where they thought he was back to being addicted, but I forgot about the tng episode.

[Ravens_cry]

Meh, I forgot about that one I guess. I knew he had a holodeck addiction at some point, and I remembered the voyager episode where they thought he was back to being addicted, but I forgot about the tng episode.
Geordie also (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Booby_Trap_%28episode%29) has (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy%27s_Child_%28episode%29) issues with holodecks.
Must be an engineer thing.:smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Geordie also (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Booby_Trap_%28episode%29) has (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Galaxy%27s_Child_%28episode%29) issues with holodecks.
Must be an engineer thing.:smallbiggrin:

Hmph, the doctor from voyager had his holodeck issues as well. Of course, him being a hologram himself, this may be more forgiveable. But he fell for the viking chick that died in a beowulf simulation, he had his disaster family when he wanted to experience real life, oh, and he got thrown over for a more mindless hologram when he was impressing those aliens with his singing.

[Agent 451]

I think you are all forgetting about "Bride of Chaotica! (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bride_of_Chaotica!_(episode))" wherein there is an actual war occurring between pulp sci-fi holograms and photonic extra-dimensional-somethingorother lifeforms. And then the Doctor negotiates with them.

[Juggling Goth]

If you want to see good star trek, watch only DS9 and only the episodes about bajorans, cardassians, and the dominion. With that, you have filtered out at least 98% of the garbage.

That's basically what the missus and I are planning to do. We're going for a DS9 rewatch where we only watch episodes that contain:
a) Garak, or
b) lots of Odo, or
c) in the case of that awesome two-parter, all of the above.

Though we do reserve the right to watch any with sexy!Dax or Intendant!Kira. We're only human, after all.

[McStabbington]

The only ones I would cut out are the Ferengi episodes (except "The Magnificent Ferengi" and "The House of Quark") and "Let He Who Is Without Sin". I used that formula and managed to keep the turkey average at about 1.5 episodes per season. Really, the thing I noted when I watched DS9 again was not just their quality and how much deeper the characterization was than I remembered, but how consistent the quality was once they worked out the kinks.

[Juggling Goth]

Project nearly scuppered by brain-melting embarrassment of watching early Dr Bashir. When Jadzia Dax held the back of his head in the holosuite, I thought she was going for a neck snap. I would've.

[hamlet]

Project nearly scuppered by brain-melting embarrassment of watching early Dr Bashir. When Jadzia Dax held the back of his head in the holosuite, I thought she was going for a neck snap. I would've.

He gets better. And less annoying, though slightly.

[Agent 451]

I was actually quite fond of Bashir. It was Jake and Rom (and Rom only because of how he was portrayed as almost being an idiot savant. I hate that almost as much as the majority of recent portrayals of autistic savant children) who annoyed me the most.

[Joran]

I was actually quite fond of Bashir. It was Jake and Rom (and Rom only because of how he was portrayed as almost being an idiot savant. I hate that almost as much as the majority of recent portrayals of autistic savant children) who annoyed me the most.

Jake gets better too. The Visitor is really powerful episode as is when Jake became a war correspondent. Rom (also Leeta) I can't defend.

[Agent 451]

That's true, Jake does get better while growing up within the series. Rom gets a little less annoying, but then morphs into the bizarre creature "RoLeeta"

[hamlet]

I kinda have a soft spot for Rom. He's just so adorable you want to pat him on the head.

And Leeta . . .

Well, they're just kind of co-dependent, and it works for them.

[McStabbington]

Project nearly scuppered by brain-melting embarrassment of watching early Dr Bashir. When Jadzia Dax held the back of his head in the holosuite, I thought she was going for a neck snap. I would've.

They quite literally didn't know what to do with Bashir. Everyone else had pages and pages of background. Julian had a couple of lines, and was included mostly because "It's Star Trek, and you have to have a doctor on Star Trek."

But that being said, Bashir is a long, long way from Neelix or Wesley. It took them a while to find his legs, and much of his development is in the context of his friendships with O'Brien and Garak, but eventually he becomes a very solid, well-rounded character and the moral heart of the station. I think if you can manage to get to The Wire, you'll find yourself with a vastly improved opinion of Bashir.

[Cikomyr]

They quite literally didn't know what to do with Bashir. Everyone else had pages and pages of background. Julian had a couple of lines, and was included mostly because "It's Star Trek, and you have to have a doctor on Star Trek."

But that being said, Bashir is a long, long way from Neelix or Wesley. It took them a while to find his legs, and much of his development is in the context of his friendships with O'Brien and Garak, but eventually he becomes a very solid, well-rounded character and the moral heart of the station. I think if you can manage to get to The Wire, you'll find yourself with a vastly improved opinion of Bashir.

To quote SFDebris:


The difference between Bashir and Neelix is, the creators of DS9 said:
"They hate Bashir! What's wrong with him?"
Where as the creators of Voyager said:
"They hate Neelix! What's wrong with them?!"

Bashir was, indeed, a blank state at first. But ultimately, that turned out to be the most interesting part of him. Early on, we got clued on that he had a very deep, dark secret, that he kept under all his idealistic demeanor.

[Traab]

I loved neelix just because he went from ships guide and ambassador to the races he knows, to ships cook and self appointed "morale officer" I mean come on, the entire idea was sorta silly to me. I understand why he and kess went with voyager to start, but why did they want to stay?

[Ravens_cry]

I kind of liked Neelix, his exuberance was actually rather engaging.
I didn't like his jealous moments, those got tired fast.
"Oh no, someone within 5 light years is looking sideways at this very sexy, sweet natured woman who has repeatedly shown herself to love me."

[Traab]

I kind of liked Neelix, his exuberance was actually rather engaging.
I didn't like his jealous moments, those got tired fast.
"Oh no, someone within 5 light years is looking sideways at this very sexy, sweet natured woman who has repeatedly shown herself to love me."

I actually liked them a bit, because neelix REALLY pulled off a dark and ugly jealous face. The kind of face you see on a husband in some battered wife public service video. Only in his case it was more, "CRUSH THE INTERLOPER!" instead of "FOUL &^%$*!!! How DARE you make that man want you?!"

[Juggling Goth]

Oh, I know Bashir gets better. I'd just forgotten quite how awful he initially was!

I stopped watching DS9 regularly in about series 5 (I forget why), but I'm aware of later developments, and very much looking forward to them.

[DiscipleofBob]

Current Progress:

In the middle of season 4, had to skip two more episodes. They were just bad.

It's important to note that I can't handle extreme social akwardness and idiot balls. It just makes me want to punch my TV and my TV is expensive so that'd be bad.

The one where LaForge meets the real-life version of the chick he made a hologram of once, and the second episode with Barclay. I got about halfway through the prior before I quit and the second I couldn't even make it to the opening credits.

Next Gen was getting better for awhile but it's starting to really suck again. Even the most recent Q episode was really lame (Let's turn Picard and his crew into Robin Hood and his merry men! That'll show 'em.)

[An Enemy Spy]

Current Progress:

In the middle of season 4, had to skip two more episodes. They were just bad.

It's important to note that I can't handle extreme social akwardness and idiot balls. It just makes me want to punch my TV and my TV is expensive so that'd be bad.

The one where LaForge meets the real-life version of the chick he made a hologram of once, and the second episode with Barclay. I got about halfway through the prior before I quit and the second I couldn't even make it to the opening credits.

Next Gen was getting better for awhile but it's starting to really suck again. Even the most recent Q episode was really lame (Let's turn Picard and his crew into Robin Hood and his merry men! That'll show 'em.)

If you don't watch past the opening credits, it hardly seems like you're in any position to judge an episode.

[DiscipleofBob]

If you don't watch past the opening credits, it hardly seems like you're in any position to judge an episode.

/shrug.

After 30 seconds of watching Barclay be the most socially akward person in the entire federation, I couldn't actually bear to watch any more.

I can't handle extreme social awkwardness in media. It's the main reason I hate most rom-coms and "real-life" comedies.

The rest of the episode could be the greatest thing in Star Trek history, but I didn't have the patience to find out. So sue me.

[The Glyphstone]

Oh come on, the Robin Hood Q episode is hilarious.

"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!"

[Traab]

Oh come on, the Robin Hood Q episode is hilarious.

"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!"

Was that Worf who said that? Because his voice just popped right into my head reading that line. Id imagine a klingon being forced into leggings would drive him to genocidal rage.

[The Glyphstone]

Was that Worf who said that? Because his voice just popped right into my head reading that line. Id imagine a klingon being forced into leggings would drive him to genocidal rage.

How did you guess? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ICpoWtFFzc)

[grimbold]

just popping in to say that this thread has been extremely useful in my quest for more star trek
thank you all!

[Arcane_Secrets]

Quick survey, is, Outrageous Okona from TNG worse than the Voyager episode Threshold? For those who dont know, its the episode where tom paris breaks warp ten, achieving "infinite velocity" and he and janeway turn into salamanders that have kids.

I'd actually have to say no. What made Okona so bad to me was its insanely trite plot and the degree to which nothing happened in it. In comparison, Threshold is just so far out there in terms of being terrible that its hard to even come up with words for it.

That said, my two worst episodes in ST:TNG were still in the first season.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh come on, the Robin Hood Q episode is hilarious.

"I AM NOT A MERRY MAN!"

That is still one of the few humorous episodes of TNG that hasn't been spoiled by the phase of endless repeats at the hands of my siblings, and stands as one of the better ones in the series, in my opinion.

...

Though it did underline how completely hopeless Crusher and Troi were as combatants. I mean, I know they were nominally non-combatant roles but, seriously... *skullpalm*



(It will be of surprise to no-one who knows me that my favourite episodes involved starship battles. As far as I'm concerned, is something does not have either a) starships or b) humour, it is going to have to try REALLLY hard to gte me to pay any attention.)

[Turcano]

/shrug.

After 30 seconds of watching Barclay be the most socially akward person in the entire federation, I couldn't actually bear to watch any more.

I can't handle extreme social awkwardness in media. It's the main reason I hate most rom-coms and "real-life" comedies.

The rest of the episode could be the greatest thing in Star Trek history, but I didn't have the patience to find out. So sue me.

I told you man

I TOLD you about Barclay!

[Logic]

I told you man

I TOLD you about Barclay!

I like Barclay, but he has more impact if you watch his character develop.