To solar or not to solar?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

I'm confused about theShapechange spell. I've been looking through the Internet for hours, but I can't find a precise answer.
Do spellcaster that shapechange into solars gain the ability to prepare and cast spells as a solar does?
This article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a
Explains in detail the various types of abilities.
The player is saying that the solar's ability to cast spells is either natural or extraordinary but it doesn't really matter because with shapechange he gets both. Is it really correct, from a strictly raw perspective? Or do spells fall in another, unlisted category, which is neither natural or extraordinary?
Thank you very much.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't get cleric spellcasting, no.

Here's a list of forms and things you DO get with it, though:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080611085922/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-226959

[Scots Dragon]

To be absolutely fair, I would actually grant the ability to cast spells while shapechanged into a solar. Only, you have to spend the adequate amount of time preparing them first, because the sample solars listed are assumed to have prepare and replenish their spells on a regular basis. Some random person shapeshifting into a solar has not.

Also, you must be of an appropriate good alignment and must have the support of a deity, because as with all divine spells you must pray for them.

[Jack_Simth]

To be absolutely fair, I would actually grant the ability to cast spells while shapechanged into a solar. Only, you have to spend the adequate amount of time preparing them first, because the sample solars listed are assumed to have prepare and replenish their spells on a regular basis. Some random person shapeshifting into a solar has not.Problem: Divine spellcasters don't need rest. They pick a time of day to pray. With the way the game works, yes, you need to worship a deity (actually, you don't, but I'm ignoring that for now), but your spells per day and such are based on your effective cleric casting level. If Shapechange gets you the effective caster level and slots, then any deity will do.

So the Wizard Shapechanges into a Solar (possibly Extending it via rod), prepares spells, and then has both Cleric and Wizard spells for the rest of the day.

Ouch.

[Lostbutseeking]

In almost all cases (there are a few exceptions) spell casting isn't listed as being Ex (or Su) which makes it a Natural Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm).

Shapechange inherits from Polymorph which inherits from Alterself which says


You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.

You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form.

Spellcasting isn't a physical quality so you do not gain it. Except in the few cases where spell casting is flagged as Ex.

[Dairuga]

Speaking of aquiring abilities when Shapechanged or Polymorphed, If you polymorph into a spellweaver, would you retain its ability to cast six spells in a turn?

A spellweaver has six arms, and it is listed as an (ex) ability. Yet, Polymorph says you only retain Ex attacks. Does Multispell fall under being an ex attack?

[Lostbutseeking]

Multispell is a special quality not an attack, so no you don't gain it with polymorph.

[Dairuga]

Multispell is a special quality not an attack, so no you don't gain it with polymorph.

Any way of actually getting your grubby hands on it?

[Jack_Simth]

Any way of actually getting your grubby hands on it?

Shapechange gives you special qualities.

[Bahamut Omega]

The solar's spell casting is just that, spell casting. A cleric's ability to cast spells is neither supernatural nor extraordinary in nature, it's a class feature and it's sort of the same thing for a solar. Given how powerful shapechange already is, I would not be inclined to bend it towards allowing spellcasting.

The way it's phrased (and exceedingly awkwardly at that) is that, "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities." Therefore, go through the solar's attacks and qualities, anything explicitly listed as either supernatural or extraordinary, you get.

This denies you access to the solar's spells and the spell-like abilities because neither is listed as supernatural or extraordinary, however, you do get the solar's physical stats, its move and fly speeds, its regeneration, its change shape ability (if you really want to piss of the DM with more paperwork), the racial bonus against poison, the energy resistances and immunities, the protective aura, and the persistent tongues. Oh and you get to keep your arcane spellcasting to top it all off.

I think if I DM I will not allow shapechanging in my game. I'll have to come up with a means to replace the druid's wild shape, but it's always more paperwork than it's worth.

[Urpriest]

The standard argument for spellcasting being (Ex) is that there are a variety of creatures that have spellcasting as an (Ex) ability. Thing is, they've almost always got an ability with a specific name, so all that really says is that those creatures have (Ex) abilities that grant them spellcasting. Turning into a Lilitu grants you its spellcasting, turning into a Solar probably does not.

[Bahamut Omega]

I'm not sure what a Lilitu is or what book it's from, but I'd point out that the various MM are quite notorious for failing to be consistent with what's a special attack, special quality, what's an extraordinary ability, what's supernatural, etc.

I view having access to spellcasting that isn't a spell-like ability to sort of be like a class ability. For example, say I'm an 11th level rogue and I am polymorphed into an Adult Red Dragon. Because I'm a rogue, my ability to sneak attack stays with me, but I don't suddenly get to act as though I also have 5 levels of sorceror and cast spells as well. That kind of logic leads to some sort of infinite spells per day loop.

EDIT: I forgot in my previous post. Since you gain extraordinary abilities, you also would get the Solar's spell resistance.

[Urpriest]

I'm not sure what a Lilitu is or what book it's from, but I'd point out that the various MM are quite notorious for failing to be consistent with what's a special attack, special quality, what's an extraordinary ability, what's supernatural, etc.

I view having access to spellcasting that isn't a spell-like ability to sort of be like a class ability. For example, say I'm an 11th level rogue and I am polymorphed into an Adult Red Dragon. Because I'm a rogue, my ability to sneak attack stays with me, but I don't suddenly get to act as though I also have 5 levels of sorceror and cast spells as well. That kind of logic leads to some sort of infinite spells per day loop.

EDIT: I forgot in my previous post. Since you gain extraordinary abilities, you also would get the Solar's spell resistance.

Lilitu are from Fiendish Codex I.

Class abilities usually are (Sp), (Ex), or (Su). A Babau's Sneak Attack, for example, is an (Ex) ability.