Vow of Peace Warlock?

[Snowbluff]

So, messing with my most recent build (A warlock who's Invocations are specialized in Compulsions), I came up with something. How about a Warlock, through UMD, Devil's Whispers, and Charm, who forces people into peace with mind games?

Then I thought about taking Apostle if Peace and Eldritch Disciple. The PrC is atrocious, as expected, and requires Vow of Poverty. I have no idea why, as it allows the use of items that protect you, but you can't harm people anyway. What good would carrying around a +1 Longsword if you're incapable of using it? Stupid BoED... Anyway, my group doesn't use most of the errata, so I could also extra spell a Mind Rape onto my list with some fiddling. Would kind of fit with the twist image of a Warlock forcing people to be good, right?

[ThiagoMartell]

Would kind of fit with the twist image of a Warlock forcing people to be good, right?

Would never fit with being exalted, though.

[Snowbluff]

Would never fit with being exalted, though.

Yeah, this could get messed up, depending on how you define "evil acts" or "morality". Hopefully any DM who stumbles across this will allow potentially harmless [Evil] spells for the service of good. Just for it being so damn interesting! Rargh! :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

One could use the conversion rules in BoED to make such a character functional. Warlock 1 / martial 2 / stuff x.

warlock gives +6 to diplomacy, Martial gives cha to diplomacy. Naturally you have +cha to diplomacy again. Skill focus, +3, persuasive +2.

Final VoP gives +8 cha, five stat boosts give +5, total after starting 18 is 31(+10).

Full ranks are 23.

Soooooooooooooooo............

+6+10+10+3+2+23.. 54 before d20.

If i remember right you compare that to a will save or they convert one step to your alignment.

Enjoy your chaotic good universe.

[Snowbluff]

One could use the conversion rules in BoED to make such a character functional. Warlock 1 / martial 2 / stuff x.

warlock gives +6 to diplomacy, Martial gives cha to diplomacy. Naturally you have +cha to diplomacy again. Skill focus, +3, persuasive +2.

Final VoP gives +8 cha, five stat boosts give +5, total after starting 18 is 31(+10).

Full ranks are 23.

Soooooooooooooooo............

+6+10+10+3+2+23.. 54 before d20.

If i remember right you compare that to a will save or they convert one step to your alignment.

Enjoy your chaotic good universe.

Yeah. You could also be a Magic Blooded Dragonblooded Warforged Fired Soul for LA +0 and +6 Cha. Pick up an Item familiar for, like, 20 more points to Diplomacy...

...but we are not here to be nice. >:D
This is a good plan, but this is meant to take advantage of the Warlocks ability to commit mindfrakkery all day. Devil's Whispers, for example, is Suggestion, with no components. You could be spouting suggestions at people all day, without any outward sign of your intent. You could Charm people to listen to you. Fascinate? We call it Enthralling Voice. Add in things like Word of Changing, Impenetrable Barrier, and Bale Utterance people will have a hard time waging war while you cackle madly overhead.

[Fouredged Sword]

Vow of non-violence will add to all of them. A high charisma will boost the saves. It is a possible build, depending on your uses avoiding tripping exalted issues. Consider a level dip in Evangelistist to let you talk to someone for three rounds and slap them with a -3 to saves.

The trouble is that you are responsible for those you control, and taking away all free will is bad. Suggest to people that they would be more happy living a life of quiet contemplation.

But remember that a DC 50 turns a hostile foe to helpful. No save, no defense. You can hit that on a -4. This works on everything that has a mind. Even gods! Ask Loleth to politely suggest to her priests to aid you. Get Asmodius to lend you a hand when you need it.

Also I forgot synergy bonuses of +6 (bluff, sense motive, and knowledge nobility).

Somewhere there is an epic DC you can hit and your words count as a non-magical suggestion.

Also the conversion rules are long term and unable to be dispelled. Get captured by goblins and become their benevolent king. Start a peaceful kingdom of greenskins.

[Snowbluff]

Vow of non-violence will add to all of them. A high charisma will boost the saves. It is a possible build, depending on your uses avoiding tripping exalted issues. Consider a level dip in Evangelistist to let you talk to someone for three rounds and slap them with a -3 to saves.

The trouble is that you are responsible for those you control, and taking away all free will is bad. Suggest to people that they would be more happy living a life of quiet contemplation.

But remember that a DC 50 turns a hostile foe to helpful. No save, no defense. You can hit that on a -4. This works on everything that has a mind. Even gods! Ask Loleth to politely suggest to her priests to aid you. Get Asmodius to lend you a hand when you need it.

Also I forgot synergy bonuses of +6 (bluff, sense motive, and knowledge nobility).

Somewhere there is an epic DC you can hit and your words count as a non-magical suggestion.

Also the conversion rules are long term and unable to be dispelled. Get captured by goblins and become their benevolent king. Start a peaceful kingdom of greenskins.

Meh. I accept the character being responsible for those under his control. That's no problem.

As for Diplomancy, it really doesn't work as the focus of this built. The DM would have to be rather batty to allow Diplomacy by RAW and such high Skill Optimization.

Devil's Whispers can't be dispelled once complete, as they already followed through with the task, and the after effect is only broken with Break Enchantment. Really, the idea is not to have something permanently effective.

The thing with this build for me is the role-play value. Sure, said lock might be Good, or his actions might be working to a greater good, but the 'lock's own motive is probably is due to something else. Like a psychosis, OCD or the like, that causes him to detest disorder and the chaos of battle. Or he was bullied as a child (for being a Warlock), and fighting causes him to freak out. You know, cool character stuff.

[INoKnowNames]

As for Diplomancy, it really doesn't work as the focus of this built. The DM would have to be rather batty to allow Diplomacy by RAW and such high Skill Optimization.

As opposed to a DM that wouldn't bat an eye to a "More Good than Good" character who actually has "MIND RAPE" as a spell.

Heck, I'm pretty sure there's a line in BoED about how using magic or mental manipulation to make good is no better than threatening or torturing them, which stinks of evil.

Double heck, I believe -Diplomacy Checks toward those that have surrendered to you or your guards in order to convince them to turn good- is actually recommended by the good book. Convincing them of the side of good, making it their choice to listen to you or not (even if your silver tongue makes it all but impossible to fail), isn't anything wrong compared to MIND RAPE.

I'm sorry to emphasis this, but seriously. MIND RAPE. Seriously?

[Snowbluff]

As opposed to a DM that wouldn't bat an eye to a "More Good than Good" character who actually has "MIND RAPE" as a spell.

Heck, I'm pretty sure there's a line in BoED about how using magic or mental manipulation to make good is no better than threatening or torturing them, which stinks of evil.

Double heck, I believe -Diplomacy Checks toward those that have surrendered to you or your guards in order to convince them to turn good- is actually recommended by the good book. Convincing them of the side of good, making it their choice to listen to you or not (even if your silver tongue makes it all but impossible to fail), isn't anything wrong compared to MIND RAPE.

I'm sorry to emphasis this, but seriously. MIND RAPE. Seriously?

I should point out that MIND RAPE is strictly not allowed under Vow of Nonviolence, as it puts the target in immediate danger of being harmed (by making them insane, if you so choose).

Anyway, it's wrong in optimization, balance, and in this build. Anyone could beat a DC 50 check with relatively little work, but you could do the intended effect of MIND RAPE with this built. Heck, to even cast a spell that high of a level takes quite a few more hoops. Doing it without being a full caster takes like 12 feats. That being said, Diplomancy doesn't have quite the same ring to it as MIND RAPE. :smallbiggrin:

Besides, if I wanted Diplomancy advice, I would of asked for it? :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

Heck, I'm pretty sure there's a line in BoED about how using magic or mental manipulation to make good is no better than threatening or torturing them, which stinks of evil.
That would be odd, considering there's a spell in BoED that does exactly that (sanctify the wicked).

[OracleofSilence]

(sanctify the wicked).

I think a reasonable argument can be made that MIND RAPE is less evil then this little gem...

I mean seriously, it hits all the criteria, ad does it faster, better, and more painlessly. Sanctify the Wicked makes them watch and ponder the evil deeds. once the are about halfway (metaphorically) this cannot be pleasant...

Also, isn't that basically the definition of brain washing?

[Wyntonian]

Y'know, there's a really interesting utilitarian debate to be had, here, but it's late and I need to be writing a paper anyway. Later.

Short version: How could a more-gooder-than-good person still consider themselves to be more-gooder-than-good if they did not use every nonviolent tool at their disposal to prevent further violence and promote the most good for the most people? If that means a Mindrape to prevent a genocide, what kind of stick-up-the-ass moral grandstanding attention whore would say no?

[Doxkid]

I think a reasonable argument can be made that MIND RAPE is less evil then this little gem...

I mean seriously, it hits all the criteria, ad does it faster, better, and more painlessly. Sanctify the Wicked makes them watch and ponder the evil deeds. once the are about halfway (metaphorically) this cannot be pleasant...

Also, isn't that basically the definition of brain washing?

Whether its a cruel thing to do or not doesn't matter so long as there is no inherit threat upon them.

Morality and feat abuse is kinda weird like that.

[Deophaun]

I think a reasonable argument can be made that MIND RAPE is less evil then this little gem...
Sure a reasonable argument can be made. A reasonable argument can also be made that syrup is stickier than water. But, both arguments have nothing to do with what I was responding to.

Also, isn't that basically the definition of brain washing?
The definition of brainwashing is best encapsulated by the Diplomacy-based conversion rules in, of course, BoED.

[Othesemo]

Whether its a cruel thing to do or not doesn't matter so long as there is no inherit threat upon them.

Let's not get into a moral debate, m'kay? They will never end well.

Anyways, I think it's a cool concept. It'd require some stretching with fluff, but the idea appeals. Personally, I think that it would make a better villain than a player.

[Snowbluff]

That would be odd, considering there's a spell in BoED that does exactly that (sanctify the wicked).

Oooooh... that's nasty...


Y'know, there's a really interesting utilitarian debate to be had, here, but it's late and I need to be writing a paper anyway. Later.

Short version: How could a more-gooder-than-good person still consider themselves to be more-gooder-than-good if they did not use every nonviolent tool at their disposal to prevent further violence and promote the most good for the most people? If that means a Mindrape to prevent a genocide, what kind of stick-up-the-ass moral grandstanding attention whore would say no?

Yeah, this kind of zeal is what I am looking for. Someone who is willing to do anything (without harming someone) to instill peace and order.


Let's not get into a moral debate, m'kay? They will never end well.

Anyways, I think it's a cool concept. It'd require some stretching with fluff, but the idea appeals. Personally, I think that it would make a better villain than a player.

Actually, the moral stuff makes this more fun. I wouldn't consider it derailing it either, since moral ambiguity is the basis for this character.

As for making this character a BBEG, that would be problematic. Due to the nature of his Invocations, everything thrown at the party will be Save-or-Suck, potentially leading to a curb stomp battle with a few bad Saves. If the party becomes immune to Mind-Affecting spells, the tide shifts and falls off the other deep end, making the fight too easy.

In my groups the stories tend to be rather character-centric anyway, so fleshing out a PC of this would be easier in my case.

[Morph Bark]

Extra Spell only allows you to gain an extra spell known of up to one level below the maximum level spell you can cast. MIND RAPE is a level 9 spell and thus ineligible.

[Hecuba]

I think a reasonable argument can be made that MIND RAPE is less evil then this little gem...

I mean seriously, it hits all the criteria, ad does it faster, better, and more painlessly. Sanctify the Wicked makes them watch and ponder the evil deeds. once the are about halfway (metaphorically) this cannot be pleasant...

Also, isn't that basically the definition of brain washing?

That depends on the context. Sanctify the Wicked is pretty clearly something that operates under the presumption that Rousseau Was Right: that evil is unnatural and inherently irrational. That evil is demonstratibly inferior and if you are enlighened enough to demonstrate it properly, all begings will voluntarily turn from evil to good.

This is, admittedly, far from a standard presumption. But the way Sanctify the Wicked is phrased is pretty clearly evocative of this idea.

[Talya]

Extra Spell only allows you to gain an extra spell known of up to one level below the maximum level spell you can cast. MIND RAPE is a level 9 spell and thus ineligible.

Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell? :)

[Morph Bark]

Y'know, there's a really interesting utilitarian debate to be had, here, but it's late and I need to be writing a paper anyway. Later.

Short version: How could a more-gooder-than-good person still consider themselves to be more-gooder-than-good if they did not use every nonviolent tool at their disposal to prevent further violence and promote the most good for the most people? If that means a Mindrape to prevent a genocide, what kind of stick-up-the-ass moral grandstanding attention whore would say no?

Problem: the DnD universe is harshly objective. If you do something evil to achieve a good end, you're still doing evil.

Plus, once you start allowing MIND RAPE to prevent genocide, the question of "why don't we use it for [crime of severity just below genocide]?" pops up. And once you allow it for that, they'll ask about the next thing, then the next, and so on.

You won't necessarily end up with a Good society in the end, though it will likely be very Lawful.


Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell? :)

Doesn't work with Apostle of Peace.

Earth Spell or Sanctum Spell could work, but with Earth Spell you would need to stop yourself from casting a spell you Heightened to level 9 while standing on earth to be able to qualify MIND RAPE for the feat and Sanctum Spell would only help if you'd level up to level 18 while inside your Sanctum.

Arguably, you could also lose MIND RAPE as soon as you no longer have a spell Heightened to level 9 with Earth Spell (or no longer are standing on Earth) or as soon as you leave your Sanctum.

The problem with the Earth Spell method is that it only works while standing on earth and you will likely want to be flying by level 17, especially as a Warlock, so you will likely not be standing on earth when you gain those last bits of XP. The problem with Sanctum Spell is that you likely won't be at your sanctum when you level up, though it is questionable what possible areas can be a sanctum, because nothing that costs money can be your sanctum.

[Snowbluff]

Problem: the DnD universe is harshly objective. If you do something evil to achieve a good end, you're still doing evil.

Plus, once you start allowing MIND RAPE to prevent genocide, the question of "why don't we use it for [crime of severity just below genocide]?" pops up. And once you allow it for that, they'll ask about the next thing, then the next, and so on.

You won't necessarily end up with a Good society in the end, though it will likely be very Lawful.

Good. Good! The cycle is complete. Can you say White Phyrexian?






Doesn't work with Apostle of Peace.



Actually, it does. AoP can spontaneously cast Cure spells, as cleric.

As for losing MIND RAPE when you can't cast 10th level spells, you wouldn't. Being able to cast 10ths is not a prerequisite of the feat, so you're still eligible with Extra Spell after a Psychic Reformation.

[legomaster00156]

Problem: the DnD universe is harshly objective. If you do something evil to achieve a good end, you're still doing evil.

Plus, once you start allowing MIND RAPE to prevent genocide, the question of "why don't we use it for [crime of severity just below genocide]?" pops up. And once you allow it for that, they'll ask about the next thing, then the next, and so on.

You won't necessarily end up with a Good society in the end, though it will likely be very Lawful.
Ba Sing Se (Avatar: The Last Airbender) comes to mind. Lawful to an extreme, thanks to regular brainwashing, but it is most definitely not Good.

[Crasical]

I was going to mention Atonement, but reading back over the thread I think it's probably not quite what you want, seeing as you can't force it on people.

My personal opinions on the matter:

Vow of Peace character persuading/charming others to be good: [Good Aligned]
Warlock character FORCING others to be good with an evil spell: [Evil Aligned]
Warlock with a vow of peace forcing others to be good: [Still evil aligned]

A warlock who's willing to cross all kinds of lines into the morally grey and morally black in the pursuit of an ideal is an incredibly interesting character, but their noble ideals don't really redeem them of what they've done. Even if your character succeeds in their quest and creates some kind of utopia with their magic, they still picked up the red lightsaber to do it.

Basically, you can use mindrape to do good, but you won't actually -be- good. You can use evil for good purposes, but you're still using evil, which kind of disqualifies you from using Good also.
Even if you end up somewhere south of neutral, though, you still are an interesting, sympathetic, and hopefully intelligent form of evil. And that's not a bad place for a character to start.

[Tyndmyr]

Extra Spell only allows you to gain an extra spell known of up to one level below the maximum level spell you can cast. MIND RAPE is a level 9 spell and thus ineligible.

Oh, there are ways to fix this.

Sanctum Spell is an obvious solution.

Id go with Sanctify the Wicked instead, though. Neatly sidesteps the alignment problem.

[Deophaun]

Only problem with sanctify the wicked: the sacrifice is steep. Bring a thought bottle.

[Snowbluff]

I was going to mention Atonement, but reading back over the thread I think it's probably not quite what you want, seeing as you can't force it on people.

My personal opinions on the matter:

Vow of Peace character persuading/charming others to be good: [Good Aligned]
Warlock character FORCING others to be good with an evil spell: [Evil Aligned]
Warlock with a vow of peace forcing others to be good: [Still evil aligned]

A warlock who's willing to cross all kinds of lines into the morally grey and morally black in the pursuit of an ideal is an incredibly interesting character, but their noble ideals don't really redeem them of what they've done. Even if your character succeeds in their quest and creates some kind of utopia with their magic, they still picked up the red lightsaber to do it.

Basically, you can use mindrape to do good, but you won't actually -be- good. You can use evil for good purposes, but you're still using evil, which kind of disqualifies you from using Good also.
Even if you end up somewhere south of neutral, though, you still are an interesting, sympathetic, and hopefully intelligent form of evil. And that's not a bad place for a character to start.

What if I use Versatile Spellcaster to get Consecrate Spell on MIND RAPE? Would that be okay? :smallconfused:


Oh, there are ways to fix this.

Sanctum Spell is an obvious solution.

Id go with Sanctify the Wicked instead, though. Neatly sidesteps the alignment problem.

Still trying to figure out how AoP can't Versatile his way up...

As for Sanctify, I would have to do the same thing, but lose a level everytime I cast it, and it takes a year to work. :smallfrown:

[Talya]

Mindrape is [evil].

Programmed Amnesia is not!

Because if I've learned anything from poisons vs. ravages, it's not the action, intent, or effect that makes something good or evil, it's the descriptor!

[Snowbluff]

Mindrape is [evil].

Programmed Amnesia is not!

Because if I've learned anything from poisons vs. ravages, it's not the action, intent, or effect that makes something good or evil, it's the descriptor!

Oh, but Mind Rape takes 1 action! While Programmed Amnesia is 10 minutes! MIND RAPE is very [Evil]

So, you would agree with me on Consecrate Spell, then? Add the [Good] descriptor, make is palatable for most people.

2 more things. Is there a way I can get around people's immunity to Mind-Affecting spells?

If I had a [Good]-Fluffed Ur-Priest, would this work out better? Or ann easy way around Divine Crusader's BaB requirement? Crusader would be ideal for the Cha-synergy.

[Deophaun]

As for Sanctify, I would have to do the same thing, but lose a level everytime I cast it, and it takes a year to work. :smallfrown:
I may have a way around that which doesn't involve the thought bottle. But, here's a question: do you still pay the sacrifice if you are dead?

Edit: And the problem with consecrate spell is it only gives the spell the good descriptor, but it does not remove the evil descriptor, which is what you need.

[Snowbluff]

I may have a way around that which doesn't involve the thought bottle. But, here's a question: do you still pay the sacrifice if you are dead?

Edit: And the problem with consecrate spell is it only gives the spell the good descriptor, but it does not remove the evil descriptor, which is what you need.

Yeah, you do. Even worse is that most things to bring you back would drop you a level. Except Revivify. And I think killing yourself for the spell would mess up your Vows.

EDIT: Reading BoVD and BoED on the descriptors... I would say they cancel or the latter would override the latter.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, you do. Even worse is that most things to bring you back would drop you a level. Except Revivify. And I think killing yourself for the spell would mess up your Vows.
Well, you wouldn't be killing yourself. After all, you need someone around to break the diamonds while you're dead. But, I guess thought bottle it is then. Store the diamonds on a plane with slower time if you can't wait for your friendly sanctified army to be ready.

EDIT: Reading BoVD and BoED on the descriptors... I would say they cancel or the latter would override the latter.
I don't see that. Sure, your consecrated MIND RAPE might ease suffering, but it's still calling upon evil energies or harming the soul or involving unsavory practices or something else. As weird as it is, the two descriptors simply aren't worded to be mutually exclusive.

[Morph Bark]

Actually, it does. AoP can spontaneously cast Cure spells, as cleric.

As for losing MIND RAPE when you can't cast 10th level spells, you wouldn't. Being able to cast 10ths is not a prerequisite of the feat, so you're still eligible with Extra Spell after a Psychic Reformation.

Not of the feat, but it is a prerequisite of the feat if you want to gain MIND RAPE.

Can an Apostle of Peace spontaneously cast cure spells, really? Musta missed that, if they can.

[Talya]

Not of the feat, but it is a prerequisite of the feat if you want to gain MIND RAPE.

Can an Apostle of Peace spontaneously cast cure spells, really? Musta missed that, if they can.


Spontaneous Casting: An apostle of
peace can channel stored spell energy
into healing spells that the apostle did
not prepare ahead of time. An apostle can
“lose” any prepared apostle spell in
order to cast any cure spell of the
same spell level or lower (a cure spell
is any spell with “cure” in its name).

Plus it's a PrC. They probably had some kind of casting before they took it.

[Crasical]

What if I use Versatile Spellcaster to get Consecrate Spell on MIND RAPE? Would that be okay? :smallconfused:

Consecrate spell increases the level of the spell by 1 and MIND RAPE is already a level 9 spell, so no, it wouldn't be okay, because you would be cheating. :smallamused:

It also requires Good alignment, which you won't have for long if you go around using your magic to crush free will.

Consecrate is not a free pass to good intentions, if you Consecrate a fireball and then hurl it into a crowded marketplace to kill an escaping murderer, you still killed a bunch of innocent people. You may have done so with a Good spell with Lawful Good intentions (Bringing a known killer to justice), but there's still crossed some lines lines to do so. It's the same with a hypothetical Consecrated Mindrape: You may be using the forces of Good, but in a decidedly nongood way.

[legomaster00156]

Something that occured to me: just how essential is the feat Vow of Peace, actually? Could you not just say that he has a vow of non-violence in RP form? That saves you a feat or two, and creates no restrictions to your alignment or roleplaying.

[Snowbluff]

Something that occured to me: just how essential is the feat Vow of Peace, actually? Could you not just say that he has a vow of non-violence in RP form? That saves you a feat or two, and creates no restrictions to your alignment or roleplaying.

Well, it would grant me some nice benefits with requirements including things I'll end up using anyway.

Sacred Vow is just Ability Focus: Diplomacy. Blegh.

Vow of Peace gives an aura of Calm Emotions. It also gives more diplomacy and some AC (+6). I need it if I want to use Apostle of Peace. So not very essential. :smallfrown:

Vow of Nonviolence give a +4 DC on my spells. Yay! I actually want this.

Vow of Poverty gives me the usual bonuses. It can grant me Vow of Peace, which is cool. It's drawback is negated with Apostle of Peace, especially with a good amount of paranoia.

[INoKnowNames]

D'aww... I missed out on a lot of discussion while I was working and stuff....

I have three comments, and the first may or may not be relevant.

First of all, I suppose I can see why one might think, via the end results, that using Sanctify the Wicked and using MindRape may as well be the same thing, and that, by duration and such, that the former option may actually be the more evil one.

But MindRape wasn't designed to make a creature that would normally be outright -made- of evil and turn it to good. It was designed to allow a caster to... well, MindRape people. 's why you can use it on anything, and twist them into anything you want, be it your warped perception of good or genuine good. But because of the level of intrusion, it doesn't change the fact that it is.. well, evil. It really can't be argued that, merely by how badly you've penetrated the target, you've done something evil.

Sanctify the Wicked, on the other hand, seems to have been designed for, say, a Succubus or Demon or Devil that would never turn good normally (although we know that isn't 100% the case). Something that couldn't be Diplomanced into being good, or that would possibly go that way on their own. I don't think the spell actually works on anything not evil. The biggest difference between the two is that this one seems to be intended for good purposes, with only the year of time for the target spent within the gem to be the only remotely malevolent intent against them, and at a rather large personal sacrifice to be able to do so.

That said, and onto my second point, the descriptions of abilities in both books, in the text for various concepts concerning good and evil, and the purposes of various spells... That the book is tagged with a Mature Only label doesn't seem unreasonable. 's some strong stuff there.

Which leads to my third point. I don't object to this build (other than that the general theme of "brainwashing people for the greater good" is usually frowned upon, including in the (admitedly very controversial) descriptions in the book). I wish you the best of luck in finding someone to okay it and for you to pull it off. My only real request is that, if and when you do get to play this, you make logs. I so want to see how this character turns out.

This is... interesting, to say the least. :smallamused:

[Snowbluff]

D'aww... I missed out on a lot of discussion while I was working and stuff....

I have three comments, and the first may or may not be relevant.

First of all, I suppose I can see why one might think, via the end results, that using Sanctify the Wicked and using MindRape may as well be the same thing, and that, by duration and such, that the former option may actually be the more evil one.

But MindRape wasn't designed to make a creature that would normally be outright -made- of evil and turn it to good. It was designed to allow a caster to... well, MindRape people. 's why you can use it on anything, and twist them into anything you want, be it your warped perception of good or genuine good. But because of the level of intrusion, it doesn't change the fact that it is.. well, evil. It really can't be argued that, merely by how badly you've penetrated the target, you've done something evil.

Sanctify the Wicked, on the other hand, seems to have been designed for, say, a Succubus or Demon or Devil that would never turn good normally (although we know that isn't 100% the case). Something that couldn't be Diplomanced into being good, or that would possibly go that way on their own. I don't think the spell actually works on anything not evil. The biggest difference between the two is that this one seems to be intended for good purposes, with only the year of time for the target spent within the gem to be the only remotely malevolent intent against them, and at a rather large personal sacrifice to be able to do so.

That said, and onto my second point, the descriptions of abilities in both books, in the text for various concepts concerning good and evil, and the purposes of various spells... That the book is tagged with a Mature Only label doesn't seem unreasonable. 's some strong stuff there.

Which leads to my third point. I don't object to this build (other than that the general theme of "brainwashing people for the greater good" is usually frowned upon, including in the (admitedly very controversial) descriptions in the book). I wish you the best of luck in finding someone to okay it and for you to pull it off. My only real request is that, if and when you do get to play this, you make logs. I so want to see how this character turns out.

This is... interesting, to say the least. :smallamused:

Yeah. I totally agree here. MINDRAPE is very dangerous. It is strictly against the Vow of Nonviolence, as it places the subject in direct harm. I would like to homebrew a [Good] version someday, which doesn't have the ability to leave people insane.

Sanctify is pretty nice, but it just takes so long to work. Ugh. As for getting around the XP cost, Thought Bottling before a fight will be almost mandatory. Probably the best part is that it can't be reversed once complete!

Thanks for your support. It might be a while, but I will log this character's adventures once I find a group suitably epic/RP savvy/serious. :smallsmile:

[Corolinth]

Then I thought about taking Apostle if Peace and Eldritch Disciple. The PrC is atrocious, as expected, and requires Vow of Poverty. I have no idea why, as it allows the use of items that protect you, but you can't harm people anyway. What good would carrying around a +1 Longsword if you're incapable of using it? Stupid BoED...Apparently you don't understand what "items that protect you" means. This is odd, as the prestige class specifically cites two examples, neither of which are weapons.

[Snowbluff]

Apparently you don't understand what "items that protect you" means. This is odd, as the prestige class specifically cites two examples, neither of which are weapons.

Nah, I was saying it was stupid that the class A) Requires Vow of Peace and B) Lets you use magic items anyway, just ones that protect you. When you have Vow of Peace, you can't use an item to harm people anyway, so why bother making Vow of Poverty a requirement while letting you use defensive items?