When do you double (IC question, but more general)?

[danzibr]

Let's take IC for example. Suppose the base IC is +2 attack and damage, and you have a masterwork mandolin, Words of Creation, and a Badge of Valor. You strum on your mandolin with Words of Creation, then immediately after do Badge of Valor. At the end, which of these would happen?

a) (base + mandolin + Badge) doubled

b) (base + mandolin) doubled + Badge

c) base doubled + mandolin + Badge

I remember reading at some point on the forums that the player may choose the order of their buffs in the most beneficial way, but I can't seem to find it in the PHB or RC.

[Averis Vol]

a few things, 1) it depends when you use the buffs, more specifically the exact order you choose, if you use words of creation your activating your IC, so your badge of valor is wasted or used on your next IC attempt. 2) its called words of creation, i find it hard to believe you can use it with an instrument. but that ones all on your DM i guess.

so my point boils down to you double when you decide to use the words to start a song. so order should be badge->insp. boost->words of creation/song of the heart.

[danzibr]

a few things, 1) it depends when you use the buffs, more specifically the exact order you choose, if you use words of creation your activating your IC, so your badge of valor is wasted or used on your next IC attempt. 2) its called words of creation, i find it hard to believe you can use it with an instrument. but that ones all on your DM i guess.

so my point boils down to you double when you decide to use the words to start a song. so order should be badge->insp. boost->words of creation/song of the heart.
Hmm, I never even considered it being an issue with an instrument.

As for the Badge being wasted... why? From MiC "If you have the bardic music ability to inspire courage, you can activate a badge of valor to increase the bonus granted by that ability by 1 for the duration of its effect."

I've read the order is (even though I didn't mention Inspirational Boost) Inspirational Boost as a swift action, activate Bardic Music as a standard action (taking into account Song of the Heart and Words of Creation), immediately after turn ends activate Badge of Valor.

My only question (which has not yet been answered) is when everything is done, how do they add up?

If there IS a rule somewhere that says you do things in order, then I totally agree the Badge is not doubled.

However, it seems the mandolin and Words of Creation happen simultaneously, so... does the player choose? Or does the doubling necessarily happen after?

[Lostbutseeking]

There is no explicit answer to your question other than the badge not being doubled. It's a matter for each DM to decide on. A common approach is to rule it only affects the IC bonus gained from levels (and sometimes song of the heart).

[danzibr]

There is no explicit answer to your question other than the badge not being doubled. It's a matter for each DM to decide on. A common approach is to rule it only affects the IC bonus gained from levels (and sometimes song of the heart).
Well... that's disappointing. But thanks for letting me know. I suspected the Badge not being doubled, but to know in general there's no answer for simultaneous buffs is, yeah, disappointing. Darn ambiguity.

[ThiagoMartell]

It's stated in the PHB that you apply effects in whichever order you choose, so the doubling would be the last effect.
Be aware, however, that Words of Creation not only doubles your IC, it says exactly to which amount it doubles. This could be seen as only doubling your base IC. However, when BoED was published, I don't think there was any way to boost IC. It comes down to a DM call, but a DM that allows Words of creation would probably allow the doubling of full IC as well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Let's take IC for example. Suppose the base IC is +2 attack and damage, and you have a masterwork mandolin, Words of Creation, and a Badge of Valor. You strum on your mandolin with Words of Creation, then immediately after do Badge of Valor. At the end, which of these would happen?

a) (base + mandolin + Badge) doubled

b) (base + mandolin) doubled + Badge

c) base doubled + mandolin + Badge

I remember reading at some point on the forums that the player may choose the order of their buffs in the most beneficial way, but I can't seem to find it in the PHB or RC.

How does a masterwork mandolin help?

And for those of you being nitpicky about the title of Words of Creation, don't make me bring out my masterwork megaphone.

[Averis Vol]

The Words of Creation are fragments of a lost language thought to be the precursor of the Celestial tongue. Very few celestials remember some of these words, and even fewer mortals have access to one or two of them as well.

yea, i'd say no to an instrument were it me. thankfully the continent my PC's are on is like, 2% magic so i don't have to worry about these problems for a while. :smallbiggrin:

[Amphetryon]

It's stated in the PHB that you apply effects in whichever order you choose, so the doubling would be the last effect.
Be aware, however, that Words of Creation not only doubles your IC, it says exactly to which amount it doubles. This could be seen as only doubling your base IC. However, when BoED was published, I don't think there was any way to boost IC. It comes down to a DM call, but a DM that allows Words of creation would probably allow the doubling of full IC as well.Song and Silence, the 3.0 supplement, had methods of increasing Inspire Courage, based largely on which instrument(s) you played.

[ThiagoMartell]

yea, i'd say no to an instrument were it me. thankfully the continent my PC's are on is like, 2% magic so i don't have to worry about these problems for a while. :smallbiggrin:

Song and Silence discusses usual bardic styles of Inspire Courage. The most common, according to the book, is voice plus instrument.

[Amphetryon]

Song and Silence discusses usual bardic styles of Inspire Courage. The most common, according to the book, is voice plus instrument.

Using a horn increased weapon damage by 1, for a specific example. See page 41.

[Hiro Protagonest]

yea, i'd say no to an instrument were it me. thankfully the continent my PC's are on is like, 2% magic so i don't have to worry about these problems for a while. :smallbiggrin:

*takes out megaphone*

YOU ASKED FOR IT! NOW, I WILL TALK LIKE THIS WHENEVER I POST IN THIS THREAD.

[Averis Vol]

Song and Silence discusses usual bardic styles of Inspire Courage. The most common, according to the book, is voice plus instrument.

aye, and thats fine, as long as your actually using the words of creation. don't mean to sound like a jackass but i feel the need to stress that part; its one of the few pieces of fluff i don't outright ignore in lieu of more reasonable ones because it actually makes sense.

[Akal Saris]

I'd allow Words of Creation to be used with a Perform (Lute or whatever) as long as you're singing along while you're playing your instrument. But that's just me.

As for the order of actions, you can use immediate actions on your turn, but they use your swift action if it hasn't been used already. If it has been used (for inspirational boost), then it instead borrows from your next turn's abilities.

So you go sing(standard) --> inspirational boost (swift) --> badge, all on your round. Bonuses such as a masterwork instrument, words of creation, or the song of the heart feat are non-actions and should apply to the base amount automatically.

Bonuses typically apply in the order most favorable unless the DM says otherwise.

Personally in this situation I'd rule that the doubled amount is only the base amount listed in the book, because I think doubling all of the bonuses quickly gets out of hand. But I'm sure there are DMs that will rule everything gets doubled, or (as the poster above) only the bonuses before the spell and badge.

[danzibr]

Yeah, I can see that Words of Creation does have the word 'words' in the title, and that it's understandable to be have to be using some words while you do your bardic music rather than without words. Like, just that 'mandolin' is a word doesn't mean doing something involving a mandolin without using words should count for Words of Creation. The wording of Words of Creation makes those words pretty clear.

In any case, I'll just show my DM all the feats and whatnot and let him determine how to rule it. Thanks all.

[Deophaun]

Keep in mind, Words of Creation has no action defined as part of its use, and it does not say that you must use Words of Creation when you start your bardic music. So, the most advantageous use would be to use a swift action for Inspirational Boost, standard for activating IC. End your turn, activate your badge of valor as an interrupt, and then apply Words of Creation.

As for not letting it apply to instrumental perform skills... why? Don't instrumental bards suffer enough?

[danzibr]

Keep in mind, Words of Creation has no action defined as part of its use, and it does not say that you must use Words of Creation when you start your bardic music. So, the most advantageous use would be to use a swift action for Inspirational Boost, standard for activating IC. End your turn, activate your badge of valor as an interrupt, and then apply Words of Creation.

As for not letting it apply to instrumental perform skills... why? Don't instrumental bards suffer enough?
Interesting... so no action means interrupt?

In any case, for flavor reasons, it seems. If you're only playing an instrument and not speaking any words, it seems reasonable that Words of Creation wouldn't work.

Personally I'd rule it to work.

[Deophaun]

Interesting... so no action means interrupt?
Not even. Interrupts, after all, eat up your swift. Words of Creation, however, just happen.

In any case, for flavor reasons, it seems. If you're only playing an instrument and not speaking any words, it seems reasonable that Words of Creation wouldn't work.
Unless you're playing a wind instrument, there's nothing that prevents you from speaking while playing an instrument.

[danzibr]

Not even. Interrupts, after all, eat up your swift. Words of Creation, however, just happen.

Unless you're playing a wind instrument, there's nothing that prevents you from speaking while playing an instrument.
Touche and touche.

I can see an issue with using WoC on a mandolin then casting some spells which have a vocal component, maybe. Maybe.

[ThiagoMartell]

Touche and touche.

I can see an issue with using WoC on a mandolin then casting some spells which have a vocal component, maybe. Maybe.

This is a common bardic music problem, as far as I know. There are several weapons, feats and such to allow you to cast while you keep barid music active.

[Deophaun]

Another possibility occurs to me: the Words do not have to be spoken. I could see how the mere thought of the Words could alter reality, and incorporating them within the character's mind could be enough. It's very flavorful and shows their incredible power.

It comes back to my issue which is one of balance: why is a flute player so overpowered compared to a singer that they can't use the Words? If this doesn't have a satisfactory answer, then the DM should be very flexible on the interpretation of fluff.