Critique my Sorcerer Spell Selection

[evil-frosty]

Hello, I'm making a sorcerer for an upcoming game that has some variant rules the DM has made. The gist is that you get a set number of points and it allows you to buy different features of a class, essentially you get to build your own class. So I have sorcerer casting, and wildshape. D6 Hit Die, Wizard Bonus Feats and 2+Int Skills. And I am a Dragonwrought Kobold. So on to the spells I have selected:

Zero: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Open/Close, Ray of Frost
First: Hail of Stone, Mage Armor, Grease, Lesser Orb of Acid, Wings of Bounding
Second: Wings of Cover, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Alter Self, Glitterdust
Third: Legion of Sentinels, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion
Fourth: Wings of Flurry, Greater Invisibility, Orb of Cold, Animate Dead
Fifth: Firebrand, Teleport, Wall of Force, Dominate Person
Sixth: Disintegrate, Acid Storm, Mislead
Seventh: Prismatic Eye, Mass Hold Person, Avasculate
Eighth: Horrid Wilting, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank
Ninth: Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Meteor Swarm.

I tried to cover most of the bases and have a couple multiples in a few areas that will come up more with the campaign style my group runs(mostly combat) so what do you think? Any gaping holes in my choices? Oh and by the way the DM learned on AD&D so like the lightning bolt bounces off of walls, and polymorph only gives you movement as examples.

[PincoPallino]

Well...
You have casting and Wildshape.
Do you want to actually USE wildshape and fight?
Then you need a LOT more buffs in your spell selection.

Anyway, in any any any case, drop Meteor Swarm

[evil-frosty]

Well...
You have casting and Wildshape.
Do you want to actually USE wildshape and fight?
Then you need a LOT more buffs in your spell selection.

Anyway, in any any any case, drop Meteor Swarm

I was going to use wildshape mainly for defense and different movement types. And I picked meteor swarm cause I enjoyed the image of 2'6" kobold throwing meteors around. What spell would suggest in its place? And I am not trying to break the game in anyway.

[Ingus]

Meteor Swarm is pretty weak. I suggest you to switch to Iceberg (frostburn) or Shapechange.
If you go Iceberg, change Ice Orb into Force Orb.
If you go Shapechange, change Polymorph Any Object to Waves of Exaustion

[docnessuno]

I actually suggest to pick Disjunction for 9th level.
Nothing says HELLO in high level play like stripping away each and every magic buff of your opponent.

I would also make room in the list for Spell matrix, Superior invisibility (in place of greater one), Rebuke final, Greater teleport (taking place of teleport)

[gbprime]

Got a free feat lying around? Pick up a Bloodline feat from Dragon Magazine Compendium, and you'll get an extra spell known per level.

[ericgrau]

Almost all the spells look good with a couple exceptions. Acid storm seems a bit situational for a sorcerer. Likewise mass hold person unless you expect a humanoid filled campaign. So is dominate person except once you catch a guy you can re-use him later even when you're not fighting humanoids, so that's fine.

What's a greater issue are the types of spells. It's not good to have too many that do the same thing. I would swap out greater invisibility once you get mislead, to avoid redundancy. Likewise you seem to have way too many damage spells. I'd get 2-5, though likewise you can swap out low level ones for high level ones as you level up. Good spells to swap in are hour/level buffs, swift/immediate action spells and maybe spell(s) you can spam on the party between combats like invisibility. There's no way in hades you could cast all 51 of your spells per day. 4-9 spells in a day is usually plenty. So use lower level spells per day on other things and save only a few high level spells per day for your major combat options.

A good way to add high level spell options on a sorcerer is metamagic. With feats like empower and heighten, suddenly your low level spells known use your high level spell slots for combat. While meanwhile your low level spell slots get blown on something else as suggested above.

[Malachei]

No Greater Dispelling?

Evard's Black Tentacles?

Why Animate Dead?

[dspeyer]

It could benefit from a way to one-shot big dumb monsters. Hold monster, maybe. Or Irresistible Dance, and then they don't have to be dumb.

Unrelatedly, while Polymorph Any Object is awesome, it's also vague and so powerful that your DM will have to houserule some limits. Find out what those limits are before play starts, and swap it out if you don't like it.

[Mithril Leaf]

One that I'd nearly always recommend picking up if at all possible is Minor Creation. Sure, it's not nearly as good as for a psion, but you still get a lot of versatility from it, especially if you invest a few ranks in Craft(Poisonmaking). This spell and some foresight can cover near any fight with non-poison immune foes.

[Fable Wright]

Two questions: First, are you playing with this list as you level? Or are you going into the game with level 20 Sorcerer casting? And second, have you considered Ruin Delver's Fortune?

[Toliudar]

If you swap in shapechange for meteor swarm, you can swap out polymorph any object (too much cheese even for me), and take Superior Invisibility instead, rendering Mislead and greater invisibility moot.

In place of Alter Self, you can then take something like Minor Image. Illusions aren't just to fool opponents. they're giant arrows pointing people to where you want them to go. They're clouds of fog to block off the view of enemy archers. They're...so much fun.

Did you by any chance mean Acid Fog instead of Acid Storm? That's a much better choice.

As noted above, unless you have a reason for Animate Dead, I'd go with something like Dimensional Anchor, Assay Spell Resistance, Black tentacles or Minor Creation there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Too many pure damage spells.

Don't forget that if you're good-aligned, you can spend a feat on Arcane Preparation and use Sanctified spells from BoED, such as (Greater) Luminous Armor.

Also don't forget about a custom Runestaff (MIC) of any 1/day buffs you intend to cast.

Where is Heart of Water?! (CM)

Consider picking up a few reserve feats along with Heighten Spell, assuming your DM agrees that it works. Summon Elemental, Minor Shapeshift, and Acid Splatter are the better choices.

You have a lot of redundant spells. You have a few form-changing spells, but you also have Wild Shape, making those spells also redundant.

Zero: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Open/Close, Ray of Frost, Acid Splatter, Stick
First: Hail of Stone, Mage Armor, Grease, Lesser Orb of Acid, Wings of Bounding, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter
Second: Wings of Cover, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Alter Self, Glitterdust, Web, Ray of Stupidity, Cloud of Knives
Third: Legion of Sentinels, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion, Bands of Steel, Heart of Water
Fourth: Wings of Flurry, Greater Invisibility, Orb of Cold, Animate Dead, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Greater Mirror Image
Fifth: Firebrand, Teleport, Wall of Force, Dominate Person, Transmute Rock to Mud
Sixth: Disintegrate, Acid Storm, Mislead, Freezing Fog, Greater Dispel Magic
Seventh: Prismatic Eye, Mass Hold Person, Avasculate, Arcane Spellsurge, Summon Monster VII
Eighth: Horrid Wilting, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank, Superior Invisibility, Moment of Prescience
Ninth: Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Meteor Swarm, Invoke Magic

Runestaff spells: (Greater) Mage Armor (if you don't have access to Luminous Armor), Mind Blank, Contingency, Shrink Item, Greater/Superior Resistance, assorted spells of the Divination school, Rope Trick, etc.

[Acanous]

I reccommend Celerity, Nerveskitter, Shivering touch, and Web. Oh, and Rope Trick.

[Malachei]

Shivering Touch could get you in trouble. You'll notice when your DM starts to single you out (IC), or when he throws books at you (OOC)

[ericgrau]

Celerity often requires save vs. flying book as well.

[Jack_Simth]

Hello, I'm making a sorcerer for an upcoming game that has some variant rules the DM has made. The gist is that you get a set number of points and it allows you to buy different features of a class, essentially you get to build your own class. So I have sorcerer casting, and wildshape. D6 Hit Die, Wizard Bonus Feats and 2+Int Skills. And I am a Dragonwrought Kobold. So on to the spells I have selected:

Zero: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Open/Close, Ray of Frost
First: Hail of Stone, Mage Armor, Grease, Lesser Orb of Acid, Wings of Bounding
Second: Wings of Cover, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Alter Self, Glitterdust
Third: Legion of Sentinels, Lightning Bolt, Stinking Cloud, Suggestion
Fourth: Wings of Flurry, Greater Invisibility, Orb of Cold, Animate Dead
Fifth: Firebrand, Teleport, Wall of Force, Dominate Person
Sixth: Disintegrate, Acid Storm, Mislead
Seventh: Prismatic Eye, Mass Hold Person, Avasculate
Eighth: Horrid Wilting, Polymorph Any Object, Mind Blank
Ninth: Time Stop, Maw of Chaos, Meteor Swarm.

I tried to cover most of the bases and have a couple multiples in a few areas that will come up more with the campaign style my group runs(mostly combat) so what do you think? Any gaping holes in my choices? Oh and by the way the DM learned on AD&D so like the lightning bolt bounces off of walls, and polymorph only gives you movement as examples.

You did pick up Heighten Spell, right? Also: Pick up at least one instance of Energy Substitution, and Extend Spell (it goes great with Wings of Flurry)!

Let's see... checklist:
Fort save or Lose: Stinking Cloud, Polymorph Any Object
Reflex Save or Lose: Wings of Flurry
Will save or Lose: Glitterdust, Suggestion, Dominate Person
No Save just suck: (You're lacking, here. I'd suggest Maze. It affects almost everything)
No SR: Orb of Cold (I'd suggest Fire, actually, for the Daze, and use Energy Substitution to get a different energy type if something's immune to fire), Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud

You may have a few on there that I'm missing, as I'm not familiar with your entire list.

As to Teleportation: You're a Sorcerer. If you miss a Teleport, you just try again. Don't need the Greater Version.

I'd second (or is it 3rd at this point?) dumping Meteor Swarm... although if you're going for flavor, first, it's fine. Disjunction is ... mixed, and depends on your gaming table. It is one of the spells that is often skipped on both sides by tacit agreement, for good reason.

[Red_Dog]

*Jack_Simth somewhat SwordSage me here.^^*

First of=>

No Arcane Fusion & Greater Arcane Fusion?O_0

Also for feats[read below] => Rapid Metamagic, Heighten Spell, Energy Substitution & Versatile Spell caster are, to me, the solid bones for almost ANY sorc.
=============================================>
Now than... *general Comment. You are a Sorc, no need to have 5+ dmg spells for every damage type. Take Rapid Metamagic & Energy Substitution to alter energy on the fly. So for example Firebrand, Disintegrate & Wings of Flurry is all I would pack tbh. Same goes for Save or Suck/Die. Get Heightened spell and now you can get stuff like Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Heighten according to an enemy.*

Instead of Mislead, Consider False Vision or Create Fetch? Not that you need it with Mirror Image and Mindblank in your belt.

Toss Meteor Swarm, Replace with Reaving Dispel.

Toss Dominate Person, take... anything. If you want to get into mind effecting game, I'd suggest Mass Suggestion.

I would Toss Horrid Wilting in Favor of Moment of Prescience OR Discern Location.

I would definitively pick up Fabricate over Acid Storm, but that's really up to your preference.

Otherwise, yeah Nervskitter & Celerity is a very good pick.
*Remember, just say NO to Celerity Arcane Fusion Loops!*

Good Luck!^^

[Randomguy]

You'll probably want elemental body, heart of water, moment of persience and greater dispel magic. Or possibly chain dispelling instead. I'd also recommend losing dominate person and taking charm monster as a replacement. Black tentacles would also be useful, and so would freezing fog (but both might be doubling up).
Greater ironguard is a personal favourite of mine. Superior resistance is also a good buff.

Get a bunch of metamagic feats, so that you can ditch some of your damage dealing spells for more useful ones. Twinned wings of flurry, for example, does more damage than meteor swarm, and is an 8th level spell.

[evil-frosty]

First, I am going more fun to play than ultimate cosmic power here; I should have made that clearer in my first post, my bad. And I remember a different version of Meteor Swarm. Reading the 3.5 version was a let down.

Also when making this list I was only looking at the Spell Compendium and Players Handbook, Legion of Sentinels only made it cause I was DM'ing a beguiler and I used that spell to great affect and annoyance to the party. I would like to avoid pissing off the DM cause this campaign should be a lot of fun so I do not want to mess that up. And as a side note this campaign the DM plans on being low magic but consequently the magic we do find is going to be more powerful and unique. And it will start at level one, but I am the kind who likes to have everything planned out.

I took Animate Dead because it seems like it can be a lot of fun to play around with. Meteor Swarm and Acid Storm were bad decisions on my part. Mass Hold Person when I was looking at it seemed like it could be very useful, but then again I am assuming there will be plenty of humanoids, so maybe Stun Ray would serve that purpose better?

I agree I should probably pick a pure illusion spell for the variety and fun. And the DM does not play with Sorcerers applying metamagic need more time to cast. At least we never have played that way before in his campaigns. So no need for Rapid Metamagic. The feats I have tentatively selected are: Dragonwrought, Invisible Spell, Force of Personality, Sculpt Spell, Natural Spell, Empower Spell, Arcane Thesis, Practical Metamagic, Spell Focus x2, Chain Spell, and Open. I tried putting it in order as much as I could(I also get wizard bonus feats, including one at first)

So I'll have to look over everything again and I will come back with a revised list soon-ish.

[ericgrau]

If I were you I would take specific spell suggestions as suggestions. After all it's the most fun is to pick your personal favorites. I mean do remove the bad ones, remove redundant ones, add variety, don't get more combat spells than you can possible cast in a fight, but then pick whichever seems the most fun out of your list and others mentioned here.

While so-so in damage meteor swarm has the advantage of a 40' radius. 16 inches of battle mat, often entire battle fields. I wouldn't take it if you only get 2 damage spells but if you have 5+ it might be an option to hold onto for large fights. Animate dead gives extra guys to fight with you that don't interfere with your other actions. Maybe you have a much better main tactic but it rarely hurts to have animated dead on top of that tactic. Sure there's a gp cost, but actions tend to be more precious.

If your casting time isn't increased then quicken spell becomes ridiculously good on a sorcerer. You simply cast more spells. The main drawback is typically running out of them on a wizard, but you instead have trouble finding ways to use all of yours. Again, up to you.

[evil-frosty]

If I were you I would take specific spell suggestions as suggestions. After all it's the most fun is to pick your personal favorites. I mean do remove the bad ones, remove redundant ones, add variety, don't get more combat spells than you can possible cast in a fight, but then pick whichever seems the most fun out of your list and others mentioned here.

While so-so in damage meteor swarm has the advantage of a 40' radius. 16 inches of battle mat, often entire battle fields. I wouldn't take it if you only get 2 damage spells but if you have 5+ it might be an option to hold onto for large fights.

I will be sure to take them that way, but I do want to avoid traps of spells. Like Legion of Sentinels is quickly becoming one of my favorite spells. And now also my DM has okay'ed the Draconic Right of Passage, so I get to play around with that :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starting at level 1 changes a lot. Also, be sure to get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) along with the required feat. For your spell-like ability I'd choose Nerveskitter or Benign Transposition, something that's guaranteed to be useful even into the epic levels.

At 1st level, get one of Power Word: Pain or Ray of Flame, those are the two highest damage 1st level spells at caster level 1 that you can find. For your other spell, I'd get Wall of Smoke because it's a useful AoE crowd control. You can cast it across multiple opponents' squares so they're forced to immediately save or be nauseated. Grease is probably your only alternative in terms of power and usefulness. Keep in mind what types of opponents you may encounter and how useful your spells will be against them, for example if you pick both Power Word: Pain and Wall of Smoke you should also take Disrupt Undead. Don't take more than one spell that deals the same type of damage, if you have Ray of Flame you'll want to skip Scorching Ray, and even swap it out to get Fireball later.

Don't forget that at 4th level and every even-numbered level after you can swap out a spell you know for one of the same level. That means you can get Greater Invisibility, then at 12th swap it out for something else and pick Mislead, then at 16th swap that out and get Superior Invisibility. Alter Self is going to be useful until you can Wild Shape multiple times/day, and consider being Dragonwrought just to get better forms from that.

Certain spells become extremely powerful with certain metamagic feats. Lesser Rods of Extend are unbelievably useful and extremely affordable, and your round/level debuffs are almost guaranteed to last the entire fight if you use one of those. Fell Drain Spell (LM) causes the spell's damage to also inflict a negative level, though as per the rules on volley spells the same creature can't receive multiple negative levels in the same round from one spell. A Fell Drain Power Word: Pain is almost guaranteed to outright kill anything it can harm. A Fell Drain Cloud of Knives gives you a free attack each round that also deals a negative level. Either of those can be Extended for greater effect, and Cloud of Knives can even be made Persistent.

As I said earlier, reserve feats (CM, CC) can be extremely useful, especially with Heighten Spell. A Runestaff (MIC) can greatly increase your pool of available spells, and they're extremely affordable if you customize one with only the spells you want. Wands of low level spells for which the caster level and save DC don't really matter, such as Web, are extremely useful, and Eternal Wands (MIC) can further expand your repertoire considering you can use one for a spell that's not even on your class list.

[evil-frosty]

Okay so I am still looking for a ninth and a seventh.

I replaced PAO with Greater Arcane Fusion. I replaced acid storm and mislead with greater dispel magic and superior resistance. Replaced orb of cold with orb of fire. I replaced alter self with minor image and then wings of bounding with ray of flame. Thinking wings of bounding could be the SLA from draconic rite of passage.

[Randomguy]

Elemental body would make a good 7th, for immunity to stunning, poison, sleep, critical hits and sneak attack. Then again, you would only need it to cast it once per day, so a custom magic item might be better, if those are available in your campaign. There's also energy immunity, another buff. I heard that grasping hand was one of the few good hand spells, so that could be an option, and stun ray seems like it would be a decent debuff.

For 9th level, there's shapechange, gate, and reaving dispel.

[mattie_p]

** lots of stuff **
Ninth: Time Stop ...


And I am not trying to break the game in anyway.

Too late, you broke the game. Time stop is probably one of the worst offenders in this area.

Here's a hint. If there is a spell, that no matter what character it is, takes the spell? It breaks the game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your 7th should definitely be Arcane Spellsurge, from Dragon Magic. Be sure you have some metamagic to increase the casting time of your spells so it's actually useful, its mechanics can be somewhat tricky.

For a 9th level spell, Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness varies from why-did-I-pick-this to it-saved-my-life-yet-again. Iceberg from Frostburn is probably one of the strongest no-save crowd controls in the game, completely thwarted only by opponents with a burrow speed.

[Malachei]

Too late, you broke the game. Time stop is probably one of the worst offenders in this area.

Here's a hint. If there is a spell, that no matter what character it is, takes the spell? It breaks the game.

So Detect Magic breaks the game?

I'd say Time Stop is a very powerful spell and an excellent choice. If you rule it is not persistable, then IMO it is actually not as game-breaking as the Polymorph-line, Shivering Touch line, or Gate.