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Craft (Cheese)
2012-05-25, 05:31 PM
So guys, I have a game design problem. Before I can ask for solutions though, I need to describe the problem. For the purposes of this discussion I define "wave combat" as combat encounters with the following properties:

- A small group of powerful characters (the PCs) on one side versus a large group of weak characters on the other (played by the DM).

- The powerful characters are complex, but the weak characters are very simplified and mostly homogenous to reduce bookkeeping. There may be groups of different types of enemies (e.g., 10 Goblins + 10 Kobolds) but never more unique creature types than there are unique PCs opposing them.


Wave combat, as presented here, usually has several problems. The simplicity and homogenity of enemies often means they aren't very interesting to interact with. The tactic used to defeat the first enemy of its type will also work to defeat the rest of its copies. Furthermore, the enemy side usually lacks any method to actually be a threat to the PCs except simple attrition. This makes attrition-survival tactics common to all wave encounters, which makes them all less interesting for it (I mean, if every encounter can be beaten in mostly the same way no matter who you're fighting... That's practically the definition of a bland, boring system).

The obvious methods of solving these problems, increasing enemy complexity and threat, often generate more problems than they solve. Making the DM run 40 fully-detailed PCs is far too much, and making each enemy able to threaten the PCs on their own would make these encounters impossibly difficult.



So, my question to you all is... are there any methods you've seen which actually succeed at making wave combat (as defined above) fun and interesting? In your opinion, why do they succeed at accomplishing this?

(This design is for a tabletop game, but mechanics from video games are perfectly acceptable.)

NichG
2012-05-25, 06:01 PM
One suggestion would be to treat a wave of weak enemies like a spell cast by a stronger enemy. That is to say, its got a finite duration whether or not the PCs address it or not, after which it moves aside for the next wave. I'd also suggest abstracting things - if there are 200 orc archers, don't roll 200 dice, but just assume that 10 will hit, and the bigger issue is not being a single target (if they can focus fire they will, which makes them very dangerous to that one guy).

Timing is also important. Have the goblin archers attack during rounds 1-2, and on round 3 some foot soldier support shows up, then on round 5 the casters are ready.

That said, I'm not sure I've ever had a wave combat that was incredibly successful.

Malachei
2012-05-25, 06:02 PM
One way is having variations on the mechanics, i.e. some mooks have more HP, better AC, but not adding this complexity to the core stats -- essentially forming a sub-group, if you are a goblin in team red, you always deal +25% damage, if you are a goblin in team blue, you always have a +4 better defense, etc.

Also, fate points can be a solution that does not add too much complexity. Each goblin has a set number of points that can be used to influence a result (dice roll) in offense / defense.

Dienekes
2012-05-25, 06:28 PM
Use a water elemental?

Ok that terrible, uninspired joke aside. What I would do in such a situation is write up a list of abilities and items. They can be anything really: sneak attack, iron heart surge, fireball, a battering ram, a wand of cure light wounds, whatever. After the first wave or two I would throw my players a group with a few of these goblins with ability 1, the next wave has a goblin with ability 2 and 3, the next wave I would have the wave do something like try to use that battering ram on the doors to somewhere you don't want the goblins to go. The next wave, I know it breaks your rules a bit, but if they were all goblins before I would "send in the cave troll" or something big, noticeable, yet still pretty easy to run. The trick I've seen to making wave combat fun, the two times I've tried, is that it can't be wave after wave of the same. There has to be a mix of abilities and unit types or it grows stale. But that doesn't mean you have to plan out a bunch of PCs, you can just cheat.

7RED7
2012-05-25, 06:47 PM
If you don't want the extra monster bookkeeping, and you didn't plan enough abilities for tiered waves like Dianekes mentioned, then don't change the enemies, change the environment.

It turns out that these ruins have long decayed, and haven't seen this much commotion in ages, so the floor starts giving way and bringing parts of the ceiling down with it. If you are using any sort of battlemat or tileset, put a black piece of paper over any square where the floor has given way, and put a red piece of paper over any square that currently has debris falling or is about to give way. At the top of initiative update the red squares to black squares as anyone standing on the hazardous ground is dropped through the floor or punched through by falling debris.

If you are outside, then maybe the feygrown flora doesn't take kindly to the ruckus and lashes out with roots to knockdown friend and foe alike. Trees need their beauty sleep after all.

The environment can be easy to make more interesting as you don't have to worry about giving monsters abilities that would change their CR, or overthink the manner in which they are introduced. Put those skill checks to work :smallbiggrin:

Science Officer
2012-05-25, 08:46 PM
I'm planning on running an adventure something like this, PCs making a last stand against a hobgoblin army. My plans are something like this:

have multiple squads prepared, which each fight a little differently.
-standard hobgoblin platoon
-hobgoblin crossbowmen
-hobgoblin cataphracts
-ice troll mercenaries
-ogre mercenaries

EDIT: Dienekes has good ideas. they don't have to all be different, and they don't have to be very different. but adding some small or large changes to a few or all enemies would make things more interesting.

there will also be arrow volleys and warmachines fired at the PCs (stuff from Heroes of Battle)

and a few "boss characters". as each character dies, the player will get to control a powerful enemy to take down the rest of the party.

not sure how well this will work, but I'm hopeful.

NM020110
2012-05-25, 09:05 PM
The environmental suggestion is rather good. To expand on it with a few suggestions:

Give combat with masses of units an effect. The blood running from wounds will run on the ground, perhaps making it a little slippery. The piled corpses will make for difficult terrain. If too much gets piled into one place, it might break through the ground into a small cave.

Introduce weather effects. Heat or cold will probably hurt the army more than the players, but should still add an interesting dynamic. A random whirlwind picking up corpses and redistributing them can't really hurt things either.

Doorhandle
2012-05-25, 09:16 PM
I would suggest using somthing like the myriad rules for Legend, but slighlty reducing the damage and greatly increasing the number of "bodies" on the feild.

Seerow
2012-05-25, 09:28 PM
Do you play many tower defense games? I'd recommend taking a few notes from them:

-Make sure your different wave types are noticeably different. It may be differences in resistances, or maybe one type is much faster than another, or maybe some waves are smaller because they're made up of tougher (but still simple) creatures. Maybe you have waves of flying enemies. Plenty of options here, though what will work depends on the threat involved and what makes sense.

-Mix and match enemy types. The lone troll coming along with a wave of goblins, or a wave of goblins and one of kobolds will create some diversity in encounter tactics, without doing much to increase the complexity.

-Try to avoid having all of these encounters take place in the same area. Use terrain to spice up the party's tactics.

-Make (at least some of) the encounters about more than survival. Maybe the party needs to protect the castle wall. Maybe they need to force their way through these waves before the evil wizard can finish his ritual. Different situations will inspire different approaches to the combat. If you're on a strict time limit, a defensive approach won't work. If you're trying to defend a large area, your tactics are going to be different than if you need to defend a small item, or a single person.



Also I agree with Dienekes' suggestion of picking a number of tricks that independent of unit type, and assigning them to different waves. Especially important is to adapt it to the situation. Having a bunch of orcs with a shield phalanx set up is great if their goal is to block a pass to allow the bbeg time to escape. That same set up in an assault is going to be pretty useless. In a situation where wave combat is going on in the same area for an extended amount of time (more than a day or so) let the enemies start adapting, bringing in a new trick that counters what the players have been doing thus far, forcing them to reconfigure.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-05-25, 09:42 PM
I would suggest using somthing like the myriad rules for Legend, but slighlty reducing the damage and greatly increasing the number of "bodies" on the feild.

Hmm... I'm not terribly familiar with Legend, but I've never heard of this. Which page?

Everyone has great suggestions, but NichG's is the most interesting: It's a wonderful way to model a situation where the PC's goal isn't to win the battle by directly fighting the enemies, but instead accomplish something else while a large battle happens to be going on around them. Definitely gonna include that somehow, but it doesn't really solve the problem I'm looking at directly.

Doorhandle
2012-05-26, 01:40 AM
Bonus content, near the bottom.

Kol Korran
2012-05-26, 02:05 AM
hhhmmm... the OP post refers mostly to tactics WITHIN a wave, not various waves. i have run a similar situation in a previous campaign, where the party and allies were besieged in a big church, having waves of various enemies try to attack them. here are some things that i found work well:

- simple abilities doesn't have to mean single abilities: i often make the "common soldiers" have 2-4 abilities. (for example: one melee, one ranged, one magical/ special item) this way they can either change tactics in mid wave, or some may do one thing, and some the other.

- synergistic/ complementing abilities between different kind of minions: some enemies can breath gases of poison? have others benefit from that (or be immune) don't let that be obvious from the get go, but a change they use in combat.

- using "non abilities" simple mechanics: this means all kind of "simple" mechanics: using a big log/ huge door as covering for the back troops, using terrain (in my example some broke through the windows above and peppered the characters with arrows), some trying to swarm and pin down (grapple some troops, setting the place on fire and so on. this was a HUGE thing in my battles.

- outside influence: if you have casters (or the equivalent technology) have effects come from the outside: catapult stones falling in open areas, earth quakes, sudden fireballs from invisible casters, entangling terrain, poison clouds and so on. if you can, have some of the troops gain some advantage from it (either by similar defensive spells or equipment)

- force multipliers/ changers: many kind of games have units that have some sort of an aura effect. if it's static it doesn't help much, but if it can be changed to introduce different changes to the battlefield: for example some unit that gives a hefty defensive bonus to advancing troops, changing it to a punishing aura once they reach melee range.

Between waves:
obviously changing some enemies, but you can also keep the same enemies, with 1-2 abilites altered (best down through changing equipment)- suddenly the got alchemical items, or minor charms causing undead or constructs to explode when destroyed and so on.

the main thing when fighting a few waves though, is that the enemies become tougher not just because they realise the threat and send stronger troops, but also because they learn of the party's tactics and tailor their abilities/ defenses and offenses against the party's tactics (to a reasonable degree).

hope this helps! :smallsmile:

Raum
2012-05-26, 08:48 AM
So, my question to you all is... are there any methods you've seen which actually succeed at making wave combat (as defined above) fun and interesting? In your opinion, why do they succeed at accomplishing this?1) Use tactics! (See Tucker's Kobolds (http://5711985.weebly.tal.ki/20110910/dd-story-time-856093/).)
2) Change the challenge - give them something to accomplish which can't wait, the repeated wave attacks are simply distractions.
3) Treat them as an environmental hazard rather than attackers - make the attackers a hazard that is simply always there in this location. They'll always have a -X distraction penalty, they'll have to roll Y to avoid wounds each turn, etc.
4) Treat the individual attackers as a more dangerous swarm - with stats of a swarm.

rrgg
2012-05-26, 06:38 PM
I don't really know what system you are using but some general ideas

Emphasize the numbers, fighting several enemies at once is not the same as fighting one after the other. Even if your heroes can cream a single enemy being attacked or surrounded by more than one at once should still be a serious threat. This requires a lot more thinking from the players in terms of terrain, formation, mobility etc.

Try adding some sort of moral system. If a group loses too many troops or its best guys have been killed then they should start fighting less agressively (less likey to charge or attempt a surround) and eventually flee. This gives some more elements of strategy to the players and reduces the number of guys that they actually have to fight.

Dehomoginize a little. When very large groups are concerned it's often best to not worry about individual hitpoints. If you have an aoe attack or a volley of arrows then instead of giving a -10% hp to every mook affected it looks much better (imo) if you just kill off 10% of the mooks.

As for decreasing bookwork I'd agree that your best defense would probably just be bringing a calculator and simply figuring out the probabilities instead of rolling hundreds of dice. Make some prepared equations if you can so that you know what the effect of an X hundreds of archers volley will look like and things of that nature.

erikun
2012-05-26, 11:04 PM
So, my question to you all is... are there any methods you've seen which actually succeed at making wave combat (as defined above) fun and interesting? In your opinion, why do they succeed at accomplishing this?
My first recommendation is to use sparingly, especially with very (40+) large groups. Fighting your first horde of orcs or kobolds is exciting. Fighting your 10th in six sessions isn't.

Second, you could try creatures with two different attack methods in a single wave - both meleers and archers - and just use them in each wave. For example, the meleers run up to the party while the archers group together away from combat.

Third, I've heard "group attacks" being an effective way to keep things interesting. That is, have attacks or actions that multiple opponents could do. One throwing a net on a character and many other joining into a grapple could be one. Multiple archers focus firing on a single PC could be another.

Daer
2012-05-26, 11:07 PM
Perhaps some war drums giving hint where and what will attack on next wave. If they can figure drum patterns in time.

perhaps chance to use traps or enviroment to take down attacks.

Something they need to do same time. Like get from place to other.

If you have played left 4 dead games those could give ideas.

Shadowknight12
2012-05-26, 11:42 PM
I break down combat into four basic elements.

The Protagonists, the Antagonists, the Terrain and the Unexpected.

The Unexpected is best used sparingly, or else it stops being unexpected, and it basically boils down to things that happen entirely out of left field and drastically change combat for all involved, such as a natural disaster, a magical mishap, a bomb, the release of poisonous gas and so on. They are things that I would not use to spice something up unless it was absolutely necessary or the final stroke in a masterpiece. So I will not be recommending using that.

What I will be recommending is, since you cannot make the Protagonists or the Antagonists varied and diverse (as you've already decided on them), all that's left to recommend is making some serious use of your ability to change the Terrain during combat.

What I suggest in the specific case of wave combat is to make each wave unique by adding, removing or changing aspects of the Terrain as they come.

An example (assuming none of the Protagonists or Antagonists can fly):

The first wave goes in normally, this is to let the players get used to it and serves as a warm up. The second wave features ice-themed minions, which turn the terrain icy, making movement tricky (slippery floors). The third wave introduces a friendly NPC that gives the players the power to collapse sections of the floor/ceiling/walls so that they can set up traps and ambushes as the wave wades in. The fourth wave introduces savvy minions with the ability to summon single-use force fields to cross over gaps or hold up ceilings and walls from collapsing, forcing the players to be smarter with their demolitions. The fifth wave plunges the room in darkness and introduces minions with Blindsense and Sneak Attack, as well as ways to counter the PCs light sources and attempts to dispel the darkness.

The sixth wave preserves the darkness and then introduces minions that can space-warp players, teleporting them to a random place in the battlefield (which, remember, is by now littered with ice, gaps, pits, force fields and crumbled walls/celing), and before the players can actually finish this wave, the eighth wave comes in and sets up turrets or magical sentries with pretty strong ranged attacks that travel in a straight line, therefore making players extremely conscious about their movement (in the darkness, remember) but gives them the opportunity to be smart and move other foes into the line of friendly fire to save up on spells/ammo/items/etc.

The ninth wave breaks out a dam or some other fluid contention and the battlefield now has additional jets of water that push anyone that comes across them in a given direction (towards, remember, gaps, pits, ice, ranged attacks and so on). The jets appear and disappear at random, which makes the battle a whole lot trickier than before. And finally, the tenth wave has a weather-controlling minion that whips up strong winds that push only the Protagonists, and sends them straight to harm's way.

This is all too easy to adapt to any type of battle. Obviously, the newly introduced elements will vary drastically depending on where the battle takes place. If it's an underwater battle, it will play out very differently than an aerial encounter. The basic gist of it is to add more and more hazards and complications to the battlefield with every wave, but trying to make it so that only one or two of the complications affect only the PCs. Ideally, 80% to 90% of the added complications should be usable by smart PCs to make wave-clearing easier and less awfully monotonous.

Draz74
2012-05-27, 02:26 AM
Hmm... I'm not terribly familiar with Legend, but I've never heard of this. Which page?

Since Legend Myriads were going to be my suggestion too, I'll give you the link (http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Myriads.pdf) to their rules.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-05-27, 05:53 AM
Since Legend Myriads were going to be my suggestion too, I'll give you the link (http://www.ruleofcool.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Myriads.pdf) to their rules.

Ooooh, one of those blog supplements. Thanks!

This should also be semi-convenient to implement since I already have rules for treating multiple creatures as a single creature broken up into multiple parts. (My intention was to allow for stuff like Ice Assassin without it wrecking the game. You can't make total copies of yourself to double your effectiveness but you can break your abilities and resources up so you can do things like be in two places at once.) Problem was it started to break down and stop making much sense if you broke up into more than 4-5 pieces: The "bodies" rule gives me an excellent idea on how to fix this, so it should scale better. Thanks again!

Seharvepernfan
2012-05-27, 03:06 PM
If I were to run a wave encounter (and I have before, I think every campaign should have a few here and there), here are some things that I do.

Let's say we're talking about a horde of goblins.

-The most important thing when fighting goblins is, where you are fighting goblins. They do best in tight quarters, like small-sized honeycomb tunnels in the dirt and roots under a forest (or something). If the pc's are fighting in a tunnel that they can't turn around in, while crawling, that's interesting in and of itself. If the tunnels open up to the sides, from below, and from above, and frequently, that also is interesting. Even if they're just fighting 200 1st level goblin warriors.

-Goblin warriors. When I make a big group of 1st goblin warriors, they aren't "warriors", they're more like half warrior/half rogue: 1d8 hp, +1 bab, +2 fort, 4+int skill points - listen/spot/hide/MS/climb/etc., light armor, maybe a shield, shortsword, +1d6 sneak attack (bought for a feat). Maybe have some wearing leather, some wearing bone (somewhere between hide and leather). Swarmfighting is also a good feat. If the tunnels are small even for goblins (where the pcs have to crawl), give the goblins tunnel fighting.

-200 1st level goblin warriors. No. Split that into maybe a dozen warbands who attack the party intermittently, don't just throw 200 at once. Give the chance for the pcs to waste their spells on smaller groups, or to let their spell durations run out. Don't give them time to rest.

-200 1st level goblin warriors. Make a certain % of them higher level, or a different class (like adept "shamans" or actual rogues, maybe a wizard or sorc or two). Throw in some dire rats, groups of normal (or fiendish) rats, even a rat swarm or two. Have the rats fight in and among the goblins and pcs, even in the tight quarters. Maybe wolves? Wolves can fight in the same tunnels that goblins can, simply by nature of build.

-If the pcs' AC is so high that most goblins don't have a chance to hit, even if flanking, then have them use their numbers to change that. Have most of them use aid another to give one of them a serious bonus to hit, or better yet, have them all grapple. If they have swarmfighting, you can get a huge number of goblins on one pc. If the gobs have spellcasters, make sure they pick spells which really help out the mooks (like obscuring mist or silent image). A single sorcerer spamming ray of enfeeblement from greater cover while prone is a pain in the ass to hit, and a ray of enfeeblement while in the middle of a huge group of mooks is way worse than in other conditions. If it can force the armored pcs to a standstill, they become highly vulnerable to rat swarms.

That would be an interesting fight, right?

Now, if you can't have them fighting in tight quarters (which you probably could if you got creative, it doesn't have to be dirt tunnels), then things get more difficult. Out in the open, 200 goblins don't have much of a chance.

Can the pcs take on 200 at once? No? Goblins have 30ft. speed, does the rest of the party? Have the melee half of the goblins get in the pcs way while the ranged half move out or ahead, then bombard them as they try to run. Have the ranged ones all sit around with readied actions to shoot anyone casting a spell.

Do the goblins have any concealment at all? Forest? Tall grass? Burn something to make smoke? Anything that keeps the wizard from blasting half of them with one spell and gives them the chance to sneak. Better yet, have them attack at night or wait/stall for night, if possible. Have them run away, leaving a few scouts behind, and wait for the pcs to rest.

There is so much you can do to make wave encounters fun and interesting (or a serious pain if the ass - which isn't boring).

Edit: Diseases. Goblins should have rusty, dirty swords that inflict filth fever and tetanus (dex damage + lockjaw, which makes verbal components difficult). Their tunnels should be filthy, where anyone with a wound has a chance to contract filth fever. Rats carry filth fever. Have the goblins draw back and give the disease a chance to incubate. Goblins are immune to filth fever.

randomhero00
2012-05-27, 03:17 PM
OP: yes, and I've done it before.

1st. Make some worth more GP than others. Hopefully set this up beforehand. I do it by introducing a few well beforehand and mentioning something like "it looks like it has a particularlly fine coat".... edit: to explain this often makes a character or two go off in persuit of such, thereby splitting the group up.

2nd. It's simple really. Make all the waves have similar hps or same hps but give each wave a different weakness based on description. So for instance metallic creatures are highly conductive and weak vs electricity/lightning. Slimy is weak vs fire...etc.Give them an equally obvious strength.

Then throw a few captain/elite types in there. Same type but simply stronger and with a few more abilities combined with giving an aura type to their minions to make them stronger while they're around.

You can also do secret bonuses. Like for swarming creatures. If they are adjacent to an ally they gain +1 or + whatever to attack and AC.

All that adds a lot of strategy.

HeadlessMermaid
2012-05-27, 08:38 PM
So, my question to you all is... are there any methods you've seen which actually succeed at making wave combat (as defined above) fun and interesting? In your opinion, why do they succeed at accomplishing this?
All the environment/terrain/tactics (Tucker's kobolds etc) suggestions were great, so I won't repeat what the others have said. Just a few thoughts.

1) In games where the players have finite resources, waves upon waves of enemies can make combat very challenging. That's exciting in itself, in my book. If there's a real danger of running out of spells, ammunition etc, a large group of otherwise weak foes will keep players on their toes.

One of the most exciting combats I've ever run was against wolves, if you believe it. A LOT of wolves. Timing was important: just when you thought that you were finally getting the upper hand, there was another wave coming. Positioning was important: just when you thought you had only that part of the map to worry about, another wave of wolves appeared and surrounded you from the other side. Terrain was important: it was snowing, the snow was deep, the wind was howling, movement was a hassle and visibility a problem.

The upshot was that it felt like real combat: messy, unpredictable and life-threatening. Add some juicy descriptions of the wolves in action (a good DM can make even the lowest CR monster sound incredibly scary), and we had a wild ride. Surviving felt like a huge reward.


2)Just because the foes are homogenous crunch-wise, that doesn't mean they need to be bland in terms of flavor. If you describe the encounter exclusively with phrases like "fifteen goblins attack", "one goblin falls", "the goblin nearest to you strikes you", then of course it's gonna be boring.

So first things first, begin with the set up. Roleplaying is a story, and combat is part of that story. Even if the attack came out of the blue as far as the players are concerned, the DM should know exactly why the goblins are attacking the powerful PCs. Are they desperate? Are they blood-thirsty berserkers ignoring the danger? Are they too stupid to assess the danger, but prone to fleeing if push comes to shove? Are they driven by revenge? Are they defending themselves (e.g. the PCs attacked first)?

Depending on the set up, the goblins will act differently. They may fight cautiously or recklessly, ready to flee or ready to sacrifice themselves, shooting from cover or charging in the open. They may yell in anger or in frustration. They may taunt the players, or plead for their lives. They may die terrified or they may die defiant. And the DM can show all that.

In short, if you want combat to be interesting, make it feel like real creatures of flesh and blood are involved, not generic unnamed goblins. Even if it's a piece of cake crunch-wise, provoking some emotional response can make it compelling.

Now, it's obviously an unnecessary hassle for the DM to make up 20 distinct goblin characters that will only die in a few rounds. But he can think of a couple of quirks for some of them (a weird piece of clothing, a strangely decorated weapon, a silly haircut, a scar, a stammer, an especially shrill or booming voice) that will make them feel unique in a small way. That helps a lot with immersion, and immersion can make interesting even the easiest fight.

And it's a good idea to have one or two enemies (in the back, so that they don't die first) be a bit more fleshed out. Say, you may pick an imposing leader, a particularly young boy, and an obviously mad old woman. Each with specific appearance, motivation, and in any case something that makes them stand out. The goal is to make them memorable. Memorable is fun.

-----

tl;dr
I believe you don't need specific mechanics to make wave combat fun. You need unpredictability and/or immersion. The first is accomplished by encounter design. The second is accomplished by story-telling DM skills.

Runeward
2012-05-27, 08:51 PM
Let the little monsters team up to take a single action. Let them roll a d20 for every monster in the bundle and add +1/2 damage per monster. So 10 goblins make a single attack at 10d20 (take the highest) and deal normal damage +5. This way, it is fun to see a horde of d20 get rolled but still quick and the damage is a little more meaty. Lots of crits, too, which will help with the still low damage. Players also feel rewarded, because they can mow through their bundle. If they kill four in a turn, that is 4 less d20 and 2 less damage when they inevitably hit.

It isn't perfect, but it is quick, simple, and will do the trick.

ericgrau
2012-05-27, 09:00 PM
The way Left 4 Dead handles it is to have a small number of unique foes. Weaker than normal because there are also so many foes in the waves, but still strong with interesting and complex special abilities. The general response in that game is for the players to instantly focus their attention on the unique foes while trying to get around the hordes of weak ones in the way. This heightens the interest of fighting the unique foe more than if there was nothing in the way.

In D&D besides blocking melee the waves of weak foes also provide a +4 cover bonus to AC against ranged attacks. The weak foes may then become simple stat blocks -AC, HP, saves, attack bonus(es) and damage - without a problem since you focus the special stuff on the unique foes. The unique foes might also have special abilities that interact well with the waves of weak foes. Disrupting vision, disrupting movement, mass buffs (preferably those that hit everything to avoid book-keeping) and being a glass cannon are some examples.

I strongly recommend against messing with numeral mechanics since it often leads to huge errors either against or in favor of the players for either a TPK or trivial encounter. DMs typically underestimate the impact of a change and go way too far.

Frenth Alunril
2012-05-28, 08:09 AM
I actually use a lot of this...

My players love it because they are constantly terrified.

The big trick is to set up schedule for the encounter, your "Waves" if you will.

The most successful is when you set them up so that they release at different times, but arrive at the same time!

When my Kobolds started the attack in the tall grasses, the players could hear them but not see them.

When the Orc started charging, the players started with their ranged weapons.

When the (magically enthralled) Frost Giant (thrull ((story bits get confusing)) ) started his charge, The orcs were almost upon them, they weren't aware of the Kobolds yet, and they were terrified.

When the giant arrived, the party freaked and ran for their lives!

Had they properly approached combat by focusing on the Giant from the beginning, instead of mucking about with tiny orcs, things would have been different, but they spent 5 rounds waiting! I was able to put my kobolds into action at the same time as the giant! The point is...

You are going to be defeated, as the DM, it is going to take your idea of a rational CR and an efficient approach. In my last battle, I put anyone who exposed themselves up against a 10 percent chance of being hit by an archer, and a 15 percent chance of being stabbed by an infantry man. The big problem was the hidden Rakshasa that had tricked the army into following along and starting an assault on their own crack stormtroopers squad.

As others said before, you want to minimize what you can, and just roll for large lumps of combat (as suggested in Heroes of the Battle Field) and this is the perfect time when the Fighter can finally go up against the Troll Merc, hit a Hobgoblin, killing it, and then cleave into another hobgoblin, killing it as well, before taking a great shot at the Troll Merc... etc...

Just remember to make it fun and challenging.

On a side note, you could probably also come up with your strategy, then have them catch someone who gives up the strategy, or, even, send in a spy that learns the defense strategy so that they can create a counter strategy, and get huge story points!

Oh, I am going to farm this idea for myself!

Saintheart
2012-05-28, 09:37 AM
Obligatory mention here of The Spartan Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963) which, whilst it's directed at creating parties rather than NPCs, has a lot of useful advice for teamwork tactics in situations rather like this.

jackattack
2012-05-28, 10:35 AM
1. Treat the homogenous combatants as a single entity, as far as attacks go, and create a mechanic that reflects this.

For example, the opponents have their melee attack score, plus one for every additional opponent in a square adjacent to the PC (so up to +7). Or, their attack score is constant, and their damage is based on how many of them can reach the PC.

If the opponents have ranged attacks, you might rule that 1dX-Y are able to fire at a PC in any round. The result of that roll might be a bonus to their attack score, or their damage. Alternatively, you might decide that all opponents between X and Y squares away from a PC will use ranged attacks.

Using a multiple attacker mechanic is going to save you time. Using a different mechanic in different combats will keep the players on their toes.

2. Throw in a few "champion" opponents who are a cut above the rest of the opponents.

They might not be visually distinctive, or they might be obvious. If players can spot the champions, they have the option of going after them or avoiding them. You can offer a mix of visual cues to make it harder (the champions have helmets and maces, for example).

Champions might all be the same, or they might all be unique. They might be a little better than the rest of the wave, or an order of magnitude. Again, switching things up between encounters keeps players guessing.

3. Include some "wave abilities" and a way to counter them.

For example, if four opponents are in adjacent hexes, they can try to grapple with the PC, who can't attack until he breaks free. The solution is not to let that many opponents get too close.

If a PC is completely surrounded, the opponents can throw a net over him. The solution is to back up against a wall or another PC.

If more than X opponents with missile weapons are in adjacent squares, they get a huge bonus to attack and/or damage. PCs have to watch for this, and break up any efforts for opponent missileers to gather.

And so on.

4. Make movement a factor.

If the opponents are sufficiently numerous, then players won't be able to move around freely. A couple of house rules for maneuvering in combat (in addition to various feats) might make things interesting.

The first is that when a PC kills an opponent in an adjacent square, he can step into the opponent's square as a free action.

The second is that if a PC does at least half the possible damage of a melee attack to an opponent, and takes less damage from the same opponent in the same round, he can force the opponent into any of the three squares behind the opponent (barring walls, obstacles, and other creatures occupying the squares already).

If the wave can actually force the characters to move towards danger or away from a goal (high ground, possible escape, better weapons, whatever), then there is another factor to consider during combat.

5. Create another out.

If there is a goal other than defeating (every single opponent in) the wave, or a way to escape the combat, then you can throw completely overwhelming numbers at the PCs without necessarily being unfair.

For example, the objective might be to fight their way to a door the opponents can't get through, or to a tunnel they can collapse behind them. There might be a magical weapon or a cultural icon that will destroy or subdue the opponents if the characters can just get to it. Killing champion opponents might make blocks of opponents (their underlings, or all within X squares) take a severe penalty, or run away, or even join the PCs.

Jay R
2012-05-29, 09:07 AM
1. The purpose of the waves is to use up the spellcasters' spells. You can't kill the tenth wave of goblins the same way you killed the first one, unless you have ten lightning bolts.

2. Waves don't always come from the same direction. A flank attack while another wave is still active, or a bunch of flying monsters who drop rocks while the goblins are being chewed adds a new dimension (literally).

3. After a couple of waves, a wave of illusions are more devastating, since players are likely to believe them.

4. An invisible wave can get close enough to engage, while more orcs are charging and being fried.

(All this is based on 2E or earlier. If newer rules make it unlikely to work, I wouldn't know about it.)