How do you (as a DM) assign experience? Fighter v. Warblade?

[danzibr]

I've been reading the rules in the DMG pretty thoroughly on assigning experience, and man does it seem off. Assuming both are slightly optimized, a level 5 Warblade should way outperform a level 5 Fighter (no ACFs or anything), but they give the same experience. Same could be said for any number of classes.

Then the whole NPC class being worth one less than a PC less CR-wise.

Also, you can pick 2 creatures with the same CR and have one be drastically stronger than the other.

Furthermore, I'm still not clear on assigning experience to things like information gathering or bribing or intimidating or any of these sorts of things. Say, for instance, you need to figure out the location of the dungeon and you're told who to go to. That person absolutely wants to divulge the information. Do you get any exp? What about if you have to do a diplomacy check or something? Then do you get exp?

So my question is... how do you assign experience? Do you closely follow the rules in the DMG or just assign exp so your characters level up when you want them to? Or something else?

EDIT: To make it really extreme, a level 20 human Wizard has a CR of 20 while a level 20 human commoner has a CR of 19. What.

[Ozreth]

I total up the XP for everything they killed at the end of the session based on CR. They get that XP at the beginning of the next session.

I've got enough to worry about running games I dont really care if the classes seem better than others, the team is all playing together anyways.

[Vladislav]

The CR system is broken, this much is true. Your main choices are:

1. Just go by the book. Sometime the book will steer you wrong in one direction, sometimes in the opposite direction. It will even up in the end.

2. Eyeball the challenge level, and hope you got it right.

[Lateral]

I total up the XP for everything they killed at the end of the session based on CR. They get that XP at the beginning of the next session.

Doesn't that... y'know, completely screw over anyone whose primary mode of attack isn't sticking pointy things or giant fireballs up their foes' asses?

[Amphetryon]

Doesn't that... y'know, completely screw over anyone whose primary mode of attack isn't sticking pointy things or giant fireballs up their foes' asses?
Why would it? They get the same XP as those who are built to do GBH to the enemies.

[Lateral]

Why would it? They get the same XP as those who are built to do GBH to the enemies.

...Hmm, I think I misread that post.

[Libertad]

So my question is... how do you assign experience? Do you closely follow the rules in the DMG or just assign exp so your characters level up when you want them to? Or something else?

EDIT: To make it really extreme, a level 20 human Wizard has a CR of 20 while a level 20 human commoner has a CR of 19. What.

My gaming group's usually well-optimized, but not extremely so. As such, I only use the CR system as a rough guideline and set up monsters based upon strengths they have against the party (no use throwing a horde of ettins against a bunch of wizards with overland flight).

I personally assign a CR to various noncombat challenges and skill checks were success helps move along the adventure or solve a challenge. The CR's usually equal to the average ECL of the party.

As for combat challenges, I usually extensively change around existing NPCs and monsters so that they can stand against the party, sometimes even give them a slight edge of bonus level. I still keep the CR the same and assign experience; far worse to give away easy experience than to up the ante but keep the reward the same.

I personally don't use NPC classes in combat except for hordes of mooks. I give Aristocrats with lots of power and authority some PC levels (to help them back up that authority with asskicking).

I also replace low-Tier PC classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) with more competent and powerful ones, like the Warblade for the Fighter. It allows PCs to do more stuff in combat, while it gives the enemy NPCs more options.

[erikun]

A lot of the rules for the system are fairly borked up; you'll just have to accept it or spend all your time re-writing basically everything. +/-2 CR would probably be appropriate, just so long as you aren't using it to justify giving less XP for challanges by adding a level of Commoner. (Just give less XP if you want to do that.) You simply are not going to find a way to balance a competent Druid 20 with a Monk 20 in the CR system.

Heck, a Monk 20 making use of Use Magic Device will be far more challanging than one who isn't.


Also, a doubling of a challange is roughly a +2 CR. I'm not sure where I recall hearing that, but it's a nice rule-of-thumb for eyeballing challanges (and is as wonky as the rest of the CR system).

[Acanous]

D&D is a puzzle game. CR is calculated, usually, by how hard an encounter is expected to be to solve. Monsters with multiple modes of travel, multiple senses, and spel-like abilities, for example, are going to take different measures to defeat, compaired with say, one high-HD thing that sits immobile but has a smattering of at-will spells.

Further, each encounter is not supposed to exist in a vacuum. As a DM, it's your job to build a series of encounters that the party must solve, in order, before regaining spells/hp/items. It's one part resource management, two parts creativity. Of course, there are hundreds of different classes and millions of combinations, so it's difficult to arbitrate one flat DC. The devs eyeballed monsters into a CR system using some quick math (the math is even in the book).

Usually, things got pushed to the shallow side of the pool, and the CRs given aren't actually supposed to challenge any mid-op parties of thier level.

Of course, the devs also counted on derpy DMs, too. Look at the Aboleth, for example.

Now, if I throw an Aboleth, just one, at a Level 7 party, they're in serious danger of a wipe, even in an environment like a river or beach, where retreat is an easy option. I did this once to a group, they learned nothing except "Run away, fast."
A certain friend of mine once busted out an aboleth at the *Exact same players*, in a high-seas adventure with no land but the boat they were in. He had no idea how to use one, so they facerolled it.

The lesson here is; it's not the monster, it's how you use it.
Or
Tucker's Kobolds are not CR 1/2.

[candycorn]

Amusing side note: I've had a CR 7 Aboleth nearly cause a TPK on a level 14 party.

The rogue failed a climb check and fell into the pool. Party hears screaming for help, and flies in to see the rogue, in the water, grappled by an aboleth. What they don't know is that the aboleth managed to pin the rogue, and create a slightly altered view of events via illusion. The party cleric flies in and uses Harm to touch the Aboleth, and ends up touching the rogue. The BDF moved in to engage a round later, and was Enslaved. The wizard moves forward, only to have the flying BDF begin pummeling him. Cleric uses Hold person on the BDF, after wizard is brought to negatives in one attack, then casts lesser vigor on the wizard and then true seeing and enters the water to engage the aboleth in melee. It darted in and out, letting the mucus cloud slowly damage. The BDF makes a lucky save and enters the water, beating on the cleric. At this time the wizard wakes up, in the water, and drops a Rod Maximized chain lightning into the water, after flying out. Cleric brought to negatives, BDF brought to negatives, rogue was dead, and wizard was at 2 HP.

But the aboleth was dead. After that, the party left, recovered, and tried again. From then on out, the cleric used Blindsight to determine the difference between real things and illusions, before Harming them.

[sol_kanar]

I don't know if it's really relevant to your question, but since my group likes leveling up relatively quickly, I make them level up after each adventure in a campaign (2-4 sessions), completely disregarding the XP.

[sonofzeal]

This is (partly) why I don't even use xp. Our sessions are big, so you level up every second session, or every session if you're a level or more behind the group average. Significant amounts of crafting or other xp expenditures will put you a session (generally half a level) behind, but that rarely comes up in our games.

Works well for us!

[danzibr]

I don't know if it's really relevant to your question, but since my group likes leveling up relatively quickly, I make them level up after each adventure in a campaign (2-4 sessions), completely disregarding the XP.
How long is one of your sessions? When I DM'd in real life we met for 2-3 hours and consistently leveled up every 2 sessions. Then again, I know this is really fast.

EDIT: Also, how about the acquiring information? I assume getting the info from someone should work like overcoming a CR whatever, but what if they want to give it to you? What if you have to persuade them?

[Malachei]

How long is one of your sessions? When I DM'd in real life we met for 2-3 hours and consistently leveled up every 2 sessions. Then again, I know this is really fast.

EDIT: Also, how about the acquiring information? I assume getting the info from someone should work like overcoming a CR whatever, but what if they want to give it to you? What if you have to persuade them?

84 hours and you're epic? Wow, that can be done in a week.

My party levels about once every three sessions, which are usually 4-8 hours (average ~6).

[sol_kanar]

How long is one of your sessions? When I DM'd in real life we met for 2-3 hours and consistently leveled up every 2 sessions. Then again, I know this is really fast.


I'd say 3-5 hours, depending on the time we have at our disposal.



EDIT: Also, how about the acquiring information? I assume getting the info from someone should work like overcoming a CR whatever, but what if they want to give it to you? What if you have to persuade them?

My point of view is a bit drastic: I think that assigning XP is just needlessly complicated. If you really plan to do that, you should reward information gathering, combat, exploration, roleplaying and so on and so forth. Do you really want to keep track of all of this? Also, if XP are assigned separately to each PC, then players might lose their notes and/or forget the number of XPs they have...it's potentially a mess. And I don't think it's worth your time.

I might be wrong, but the main reason I see to assign XP is to "reward" some aspects of players' behavior that you deem important (such as roleplaying or showing up at sessions). While this pattern has a reason to exist, over the course of the years I've been playing more and more with people who actually like roleplaying :-D , so they don't have to be rewarded for showing up or roleplay: they already do that. So, XP have become unimportant.

When planning a campaign or a short series of adventures, I just decide which level the PCs are going to be in each adventure, and tell them "ok, you level up!" when they finish one adventure. In recent years, it has been 1 adventure (2-4 sessions of 3-5 hours each) = +1 level.

[Rogue Shadows]

2. Eyeball the challenge level, and hope you got it right.

My general rule for my gaming group is that starting at about 6th level, decrease all CR values by 1 for monsters in the Monster Manual, unless it can turn invisible, in whcih case +1, or is naturally invisible, in which case it's a TPK.

(My players, for some reason, are horrible at dealing with invisible monsters. They nearly got slaughtered by 3 will-o'-wisps once. At level 9. Otherwise, however, they murderize anything they come across)

[danzibr]

84 hours and you're epic? Wow, that can be done in a week.
Hhhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooollllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyy yy s********************************t. 12 hours of D&D per day? That's totally wack by my standards. I'm a much more casual players, only getting one session per week, so we level up twice a month. About ten months to get to epic.

However, if we (my group and I) were hardcore D&D players, I would totally slow the exp acquisition rate down.

My point of view is a bit drastic: I think that assigning XP is just needlessly complicated. If you really plan to do that, you should reward information gathering, combat, exploration, roleplaying and so on and so forth. Do you really want to keep track of all of this? Also, if XP are assigned separately to each PC, then players might lose their notes and/or forget the number of XPs they have...it's potentially a mess. And I don't think it's worth your time.

I might be wrong, but the main reason I see to assign XP is to "reward" some aspects of players' behavior that you deem important (such as roleplaying or showing up at sessions). While this pattern has a reason to exist, over the course of the years I've been playing more and more with people who actually like roleplaying :-D , so they don't have to be rewarded for showing up or roleplay: they already do that. So, XP have become unimportant.

When planning a campaign or a short series of adventures, I just decide which level the PCs are going to be in each adventure, and tell them "ok, you level up!" when they finish one adventure. In recent years, it has been 1 adventure (2-4 sessions of 3-5 hours each) = +1 level.
I like to assign exp as we go, but I don't want all the exp to be from completing quests and beating/otherwise overcoming dudes. For this reason I wish to assign exp to the usual plot hooking and whatnot, but I'm not sure how to do it.

[sol_kanar]

I like to assign exp as we go, but I don't want all the exp to be from completing quests and beating/otherwise overcoming dudes. For this reason I wish to assign exp to the usual plot hooking and whatnot, but I'm not sure how to do it.

I understand. You could try to write down a set of "objectives" for the adventure (e.g. "become friendly with the Duke", "discover all the Duke's family history", "solve a riddle", "surprise the DM" :-)) and assign a CR to each one, equal to the level of the group or higher if you think that the task is particularly difficult.

Before doing all that, however, I think it could be useful to ponder pros and cons: is it worth your time? Wouldn't it be better to exploit the time you have to create even more awesome plots/opponents/choices/locations for your players? :-)

[thisisnotspam]

They get a new LvL when I say they do and i say they do when the plot is about to throw stronger enemies at them.

[danzibr]

I understand. You could try to write down a set of "objectives" for the adventure (e.g. "become friendly with the Duke", "discover all the Duke's family history", "solve a riddle", "surprise the DM" :-)) and assign a CR to each one, equal to the level of the group or higher if you think that the task is particularly difficult.

Before doing all that, however, I think it could be useful to ponder pros and cons: is it worth your time? Wouldn't it be better to exploit the time you have to create even more awesome plots/opponents/choices/locations for your players? :-)
Yeah... it's good to ponder that. In the past I used to not do it at all and I feel it would be a good change. Perhaps it it's really not worth the time I can go back to "giving" levels when the players are going to face stronger baddies, as thisisnotspam said.

As for the objectives, I think I get the idea. And ya know, I just realized something. Perhaps the players shouldn't get any experience from someone who is willing to tell them everything they know. Then make the NPCs slightly less friendly, perhaps cautious, etc. etc. I mean, the party is a bunch of randoms nobody knows. Start at indifferent, go from there.

[Amphetryon]

<snip> And ya know, I just realized something. Perhaps the players shouldn't get any experience from someone who is willing to tell them everything they know. Then make the NPCs slightly less friendly, perhaps cautious, etc. etc. I mean, the party is a bunch of randoms nobody knows. Start at indifferent, go from there.
For low levels, sure, that makes sense. Once they get somewhere above 5th level, though, unless they got all that experience from a single massive underground/faraway dungeon, they're probably good enough to have developed a reputation with NPCs that are important enough to drop info at their feet.

[Seharvepernfan]

I give what I feel the persons' CR actually was.

For instance, if you don't think a fighter 6 should be CR 6, make him CR 4 or something.

I personally have only DMed low level adventures, so my experience is limited to that. One thing I do that isn't in the books is to split CR down even further. I have CR 1.5 and CR .75 and so on.

[Balmas]

My group consists of my two younger brothers, both first time D&D players. I've been fairly generous with the XP, if only to move the story along and keep them interested.

General rule of thumb: Award the XP according to how difficult it was for them. If it was a difficult fight that put the fear of dying into your PCs, call it CR +1 or +2. If they had to fight well, XP=CR. If it's an easy fight, CR -1. If they one-shot it, don't even bother.

I also award XP for roleplaying. For example, they went to a blacksmith's shop to forge daggers for a rebellion they're funding. The half-hour of talk that went into it earned the wizard enough XP to gain a level.

[killianh]

My group are EXP HOGS. They buy all of the spells with exp costs, and if they want to make a custom item I simply work the math out on the cost, then add it to an appropriate treasure find (unless someone plays artificer).

What I do EXP wise (since my players are all good friends of mine and can't always make it to a game) I simply do a group exp pool. I add between 1\6 to 1\10th of a level to the pool after each encounter and tell them when they leveled. Its easier for them for tracking character progression, and easier for me since they always stay at the same ECL as the rest of the party

[Malachei]

Hhhhhhhhhoooooooooooooooollllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyy yy s********************************t. 12 hours of D&D per day? That's totally wack by my standards. I'm a much more casual players, only getting one session per week, so we level up twice a month. About ten months to get to epic.

I wish I could play once per week. My group is, well, regionally distributed. To compensate, I'm playing play-by-post instead.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm curious - to all the DMs who assign a flat amount of experience on a per-session basis, or to DMs who auto-level characters after a certain point (or as the campaign demands it), how do you handle characters that lose XP in various ways (crafting items, spells, LA buyoff, Raise Dead, etc.)?

I've played with a couple of DMs who did things this way, but it meant that characters who lost XP in some way never really caught up. In one particularly bad example, after you'd died a couple of times, it was more worthwhile to just roll up a new character. New characters came in at the party level, while characters that lost a level somehow would stay behind the rest of the party forever...

(It also meant that the party wizard could craft items until he got JUST shy of losing a level... it didn't matter what his XP level was, he was just going to level up when the rest of the party did.)

[The Mormegil]

I'm curious - to all the DMs who assign a flat amount of experience on a per-session basis, or to DMs who auto-level characters after a certain point (or as the campaign demands it), how do you handle characters that lose XP in various ways (crafting items, spells, LA buyoff, Raise Dead, etc.)?

I've played with a couple of DMs who did things this way, but it meant that characters who lost XP in some way never really caught up. In one particularly bad example, after you'd died a couple of times, it was more worthwhile to just roll up a new character. New characters came in at the party level, while characters that lost a level somehow would pretty much never catch up...


For me, it's very simple: I don't play with that stuff and never will. It's been years since I used a system that had it, and even then, ignored it.

[Remmirath]

I don't really like the CR system and never have, so I don't use it. I assign XP to each creature based on how much I think it was worth. Same goes for traps, ideas, and anything else I might feel like giving out a bonus for. As I always give XP at the end of the campaign or adventure (campaign for the normal group, adventure for others), there's generally also some sort of completion bonus pertaining to how much I felt the campaign/adventure ended up being worth.

I do keep it internally consistent, so if I gave 1000 XP for a particular kind of creature in one campaign once, if it shows up again later with the same stats it's still worth 1000. I usually assign a sort of 'expected value' of XP to creatures in my campaign plan, which I then adjust according to how tough the fight ended up actually being.

I also don't do the whole 'must rest on level up' thing, as I tend to assume that it's actually a gradual process and this is just when the effects show up rather than that one has to go off for more training. I do allow people to level up multiple times at once if they have the necessary XP for it.

As for losing XP... well, it wouldn't be a penalty if it was made up for, now would it? They lost it, it stays lost, they are now somewhat behind. 'Twould be rather pointless in my mind if they just got more XP to make up for it. If somebody insists on making loads of magical items or casting many spells that cost them XP, why then, they are quickly going to find themself significantly lower level than the rest of the party.

[Othesemo]

I primarily use Ad-hoc exp. When I use the DMG exp table, I'll generally make a fight that I think is appropriate for the party ad hand, and then give them exp for defeating an appropriate challenge. The other half or so of exp, I give out for roleplaying.