[3.5] Rebuild - Twenty Prestige Classes [PEACH]

[Rogue Shadows]

For those who came in late...
Rebuild (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B86CqQWWW_t7dGhHWUNSSlNEX3c/edit?pli=1) - A re-write of every race, class, feat, and spell list in Core D&D.
Master Spell List (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B86CqQWWW_t7UDBSTlFHdzBvNEk/edit?pli=1) - A re-write of every single spell in Core (that wasn't cut outright)

Both of the above are still in-progress, but coming along nicely. The above are the latest versions.

But continuing with my mad project: the default prestige classes:

Yo (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B86CqQWWW_t7Y2I1YWxGRm9yckE/edit)

As my goal is to rebuild Core, it follows that I need to re-work the prestige classes of the DMG: Power some up, power some down...and introduce a bunch of new ones. For the most part, I adopted the Pathfinder variations where applicable, although those were also modified.

I had a few more overt disign goals here than with the base classes.

1) Limit dead levels. With the exception of the mystic theurge, no prestige class has a dead level (BTW, I define "dead level" as an empty "Special" column). The mystic theurge I let slide with four dead levels because a Cleric 5/Wizard 5/Mystic Theurge 10 is essentially a Cleric 15/Wizard 15 insofar as spells are concerned, which I feel is spiffy enough.

2) Limit spellcasting. Again, with the exception of the mystic theurge (who can never achieve full spellcasting in either theurge'd class as a balancing factor), any prestige class that grants access to spellcasting has a "dead" spells per day column at 1st level. Most gain spells per day at 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th levels (allowing them to become 15th-level casters); the Blackguard, Dragonslayer, and Knight of the Chalice, being more martial-minded, instead gain spells per day at 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels. This is due to the fact that, in standard 3.5, martial classes have to give up class abilities in exchange for prestige class abilities (fair enough), while spellcasters often continue to gain spells per day unimpeded (or almost unimpeded) and get to fill in their dead levels. This is bull.

3) The reason for adding prestige classes was due to a desire to give every Core class at least two "natural" prestige class options. The Blackguard an the Assassin were not considered a part of this process, since PCs are not typically evil. However, overlap was considered acceptable.

Ideas and inspirations for these prestige classes came from across various sources. Most noteably from this site, we've got T.G. Oskar's Project Heretica (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554) for the Blackguard, and Pramxnim's Tattooed Monk base class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111792) for the Tattoed Monk prestige class. The thief-acrobat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class)) comes from...well, I just linked it.

Well, let's see how badly I screwed this up.

An unrelated note
This site really, really needs some new servers or hosting or something. It goes down more often than someone in a metaphor that the site's Code of Conduct won't let me talk about goes down.

[NeoSeraphi]

The link to the prestige classes is broken. Takes me to a Google docs page that does not exist.

Edit: This is due to some extra code in the link, it ends with </b> or something. Remove that from the link and it works fine. Will comment after I have finished reading.

[Rogue Shadows]

The link to the prestige classes is broken. Takes me to a Google docs page that does not exist.

Edit: This is due to some extra code in the link, it ends with </b> or something. Remove that from the link and it works fine. Will comment after I have finished reading.

I just copied the address from the address bar rather than using the one that Google was trying to give me. Should work now; at least, it works while I'm signed out of Google.

Ugh. Why would Google give two different addresses?

[eftexar]

Wow... Just... This is really impressive... The balance on the classes and prestige classes is superb (but so much work, how long have you been working on this?). From a glance everything looks to be around tier 3 with maybe a couple of low tier 2s and a couple tier 4s. Not only that, but you made the melee classes interesting and removing 8th and 9th level spells was a great choice.
I do feel like the ranger could use a little more though... And the monk still feels like the lost stepchild of the group even if it does have some cool stuff now (I say redo it from scratch).

[Rogue Shadows]

Wow... Just... This is really impressive... The balance on the classes and prestige classes is superb (but so much work, how long have you been working on this?).

About this long (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205016), give or take (or give) a few months (cutting 8th and 9th level spells has been a long goal of mine, and goes back to a low-magic campaign setting I made once, back in...'03, maybe? It's been in the back of my mind, but actual development didn't begin until that thread)


From a glance everything looks to be around tier 3 with maybe a couple of low tier 2s and a couple tier 4s. Not only that, but you made the melee classes interesting and removing 8th and 9th level spells was a great choice.

In a Perfect World, they'd all be Tier 3, but I'm happy enough with between low Tier 2/high Tier 4 (after all, a fighter isn't trying to be useful in a variety of situations).


I do feel like the ranger could use a little more though... And the monk still feels like the lost stepchild of the group even if it does have some cool stuff now (I say redo it from scratch).

Roger. Once that's done...ugh, Skills.

[NeoSeraphi]

Listing thoughts as I have them:

Arcane Archer should not have Medium Fort. He's an archer with magic. That equals Good Ref, Good Will. No reason for him to have anything better than poor Fort.

Arcane Archer gains proficiency with scythes and greataxes. Doesn't make sense.

Arcane Archer gains proficiency with shields. What? :confused:

BAB Requirement is quite high for a gish class. Will require at least level 7, with 6 levels in ranger or a full BAB class and 1 level in wizard. Optimal entry seems to be Bard 8, which is still pretty late, but at least it's not a dual-entry class.

Enhance Arrows (Elemental): Is this chosen when the arcane archer gains the ability and cannot be changed, or is it chosen with each arrow the archer fires (so he could potentially shoot a shock arrow, then a flaming arrow, then a frost arrow, all in the same round?)

Arcane Trickster advances spellcasting, not arcane spellcasting. (So you could potentially go cleric 1/wizard 3/rogue 3 and then advance your cleric spellcasting with arcane trickster. It's not overpowered, just seems unintended).

Invisible Thief needs an action to suppress. Probably free, possibly immediate.

Surprise Spells- Finally, Sneak Attack in AOE form. Use Invisible Thief. Cast fireball on a crowd. Profit!

Assassin looks good.

Blackguards need Bluff as a class skill.

Frightful Presence has a pitiful DC. You should make it 10+class level+Cha mod, same as Death Attack.

I assume that your version of contagion still allows a saving throw. In which case, you need to specify a DC for the saving throw of the blackguard's spell-like ability.

Dragons aren't particularly smart. Why are you giving Dragon Disciples an Intelligence boost? Just make it Charisma.

Prerequisites: Favorite entry for this class hasn't changed: Barbarian 4/Bard 1. Which is fine by me.

Wings- I feel that creatures with wings should not be able to fly if they have a medium or heavy load, or at least that their flight should be heavily restricted. This is a personal belief, but in case you might share it, I thought I'd bring it up. I mean, picture a sorcerer 1/fighter 10/dragon disciple 9 flying around in full plate wrapped tightly around his wings.

Dragonslayer's prerequisites are kind of random and definitely light. I would add "Speak Language: Draconic" and perhaps the Favored Enemy (Dragons) feature. You said you wanted natural progression, right? I haven't seen a ranger one yet.

Dragonslayers don't get Evasion? That would be more helpful against dragons than DR 5/-.

Horde Master- Would replace Toughness with Leadership for prerequisites. Just fits better.

Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight has a typo. It references the Stealth skill.

Alright, read every class, and I have to say I didn't see a single class for the cleric. Period. You said you wanted classes for every base class, but...no. None for the cleric. It's disappointing, really, that if a cleric wants to prestige he either has to dip wizard and be a theurge or wait til level 11 and be a Knight of the Chalice (which he can't even finish before 20th level by that point). Why no cleric classes?

[Rogue Shadows]

Alright, read every class, and I have to say I didn't see a single class for the cleric. Period. You said you wanted classes for every base class, but...no. None for the cleric. It's disappointing, really, that if a cleric wants to prestige he either has to dip wizard and be a theurge or wait til level 11 and be a Knight of the Chalice (which he can't even finish before 20th level by that point). Why no cleric classes?

Huh, oops.

...nuts, I was really happy that I had 20 prestige classes. You know, d20 system, 20 prestige classes...it's pretty. Well, I wanted to add a "School master" prestige class for the wizard anyway, so adding a couple of cleric ones probably isn't a bad idea.

Any suggestions on classes from splatbooks to add?


Arcane Archer

The class was lifted basically wholesale from Pathfinder, explaining the weapons and armor (and shields). I'll change some things up there, but I don't think I want entry earlier than level 5 (I get the feeling that the class is balanced around a level 7 entry, and unfortunate things might happen to the game if this is dropped too low).

I think that elemental arrows are chosen once per day when spells are prepared. So for a day the arcane archer can have fire arrows, then tomorrow shocking ones, etc. That's what I read, anyway; I'll clean up the text to make it...cleaner.


Arcane Trickster

Will edit to be specifically arcane spells. Invisible thief will suppress as a free action on the thief's turn.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic about surprise spells, or if you genuinely like the idea...


Blackguard

Whoops, that's what happens when you copy/paste the Paladin's class skills. I'll change the Frightful Presence DC and edit in a saving throw DC for contagion.

EDIT
Wait, you said I should change the blackguard's Frightful Presence...to what it currently is. Did you mean to say 10 + 1/2 character level + CHA modifier?


Dragon Disciple

Dragons aren't particularly smart? I've always thought of them as being such...but, I see the point, and I'll change the ability boost.

Dragon's wings are way too small for them to fly anyway. I've always assumed some kind of voodoo is involved even if it is an extraordinary ability (after all, the EX description does state that EX abilities can break the laws of physics). I don't mind the idea of a flying juggernaut with tiny wings.


Dragonslayer

The ranger has at least two natural progressions - Horizon Walker and Arcane Archer. They can still get into Dragonslayer, but really I see this as more of a Paladin-type class.

I will add Evasion. In place of the DR, or complimenting it?


Horde Master

This PrC started life as the Eye of Gruumsh, incidentally. Anyway, I don't want Leadership as a prerequisite feat, because not every DM will be comfortable with the Leadership feat or its effects, but I don't want the prestige class necessarily locked out because Leadership was. Indeed, "Call the Horde" was actually tacked on at the last minute because I didn't think it was doing much Mastering despite its name.


Shadowdancer

Oops. Pathfinder, etc. I'll make the changes.

Thanks for the help!

[NeoSeraphi]

Huh, oops.

...nuts, I was really happy that I had 20 prestige classes. You know, d20 system, 20 prestige classes...it's pretty. Well, I wanted to add a "School master" prestige class for the wizard anyway, so adding a couple of cleric ones probably isn't a bad idea.

Any suggestions on classes from splatbooks to add?


No. I don't play clerics because they're pathetic and boring (in my opinion). There's a few from Complete Divine and Complete Champion that you could look up, but you should ask someone else about that.



Whoops, that's what happens when you copy/paste the Paladin's class skills. I'll change the Frightful Presence DC and edit in a saving throw DC for contagion.

EDIT
Wait, you said I should change the blackguard's Frightful Presence...to what it currently is. Did you mean to say 10 + 1/2 character level + CHA modifier?


No. When I read it, it was 10+1/2 blackguard level+Cha mod, so it capped at 15+Cha, which was terrible. 10+blackguard level+Cha mod would be better.




Dragons aren't particularly smart? I've always thought of them as being such...but, I see the point, and I'll change the ability boost.


I checked the SRD. True dragons have Int and Cha as tied for their second lowest ability score (just above Dex, which remains 10 no matter their Size). So, actually Wis would be more appropriate. :smallconfused: Go figure. But Cha is better for the class, as it is for spontaneous casters.


I will add Evasion. In place of the DR, or complimenting it?


Remove DR and replace it with Evasion and Improved Evasion, and add the Evade Reach class feature from the Titan Mauler barbarian archetype. If you're going to be fighting dragons, Evade Reach makes sense.

[Rogue Shadows]

No. I don't play clerics because they're pathetic and boring (in my opinion).

Pathetic? CoDzilla is pathetic? What game are you running?

But otherwise yeah, I don't play clerics either, so I dunno.


No. When I read it, it was 10+1/2 blackguard level+Cha mod, so it capped at 15+Cha, which was terrible. 10+blackguard level+Cha mod would be better.

Ah, comprende. Changed it (and I changed the horde master's as well).


I checked the SRD. True dragons have Int and Cha as tied for their second lowest ability score (just above Dex, which remains 10 no matter their Size).

Well, yeah, but a typical human has INT or CHA 10 or 11, and a big part of the dragon's enhanced STR and CON is in their size...I mean, a red Great Wyrm has STR 45 and CON 31, but if you were to reduce it to Medium it's just be STR 13 and CON 15, whereas Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma remain the same, "the same" being considerably above human average (and remember that all the monsters in the MM were built with 10s and 11s as bases)

(interestingly it also ends up with DEX 14).

EDIT


Remove DR and replace it with Evasion and Improved Evasion, and add the Evade Reach class feature from the Titan Mauler barbarian archetype. If you're going to be fighting dragons, Evade Reach makes sense.

^
I did this too. Evasion at 3rd, Improved Evasion at 9th, and Evade Reach (5 ft) at 3rd and improving to 10' at 6th and 15' at 9th.

[NeoSeraphi]

Pathetic? CoDzilla is pathetic? What game are you running?

But otherwise yeah, I don't play clerics either, so I dunno.


It's a nice little fantasy that people have, but I've never seen a cleric actually used in any particularly useful fashion at a real table. Its spell list is boring and repetitive, especially in Core, and even if you buff your score, enlarge yourself, and give yourself full BAB, you're still just fighting in melee combat, except you spent all your feats to let you make the effect last longer, so you're not actually as good as a fighter who spent his feats to let him be effective.

Just my personal opinion. I know lots of people call the cleric a Tier 1 class, but I just don't see it. To me, he has all the versatility, but none of the power. I think he's a low Tier 3.



Ah, comprende. Changed it (and I changed the horde master's as well).


Yep.



Well, yeah, but a typical human has INT or CHA 10 or 11, and a big part of the dragon's enhanced STR and CON is in their size...I mean, a red Great Wyrm has STR 45 and CON 31, but if you were to reduce it to Medium it's just be STR 13 and CON 15, whereas Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma remain the same, "the same" being considerably above human average (and remember that all the monsters in the MM were built with 10s and 11s as bases)

(interestingly it also ends up with DEX 14).


It's all relative in some way or another. Either way, an Int bonus just doesn't make sense.

[Rogue Shadows]

Right. I added three new prestige classes: the Divine Disciple, the Magister, and the Pantheist.

The Divine Disciple is just the 5-level prestige class, extended out over 10 levels. The Magister is a super-specialized wizard, basically like the Red Wizard of Thay but without the tattoos or magic circles.

The Pantheist is new and takes advantage of how clerics gain spells in the Rebuild. Namey, clerics of a god get locked into 5 domains from 1st level, whereas clerics without a patron deity get to select any 4 domains at 1st level (within alignment restrictions). The pantheist is for the latter; it lets them gain an additional 3 domains, plus basically construct their own domain as they level up.

[Anton Spohn]

I was curious as to why the Loremaster was reduced to half-casting progression. It wasn't all that powerful to begin with and the update to it has actually reduced its power level considerably.

I would advise revision regarding that one.

Otherwise it looks pretty cool. :smallsmile: