Jason Todd [PF]

[ExemplarofAvg]

Jason Todd
Male Human Rogue (Roof Running Scout) 15
CN M
Init +5, Senses: Perception +21

Defense
AC 18, Touch 15, Flat-Footed 13 (+3 Armor, +5 Dex)
Hp ? (15d8+8),
Fort +7, Ref +13, Will +8
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion

Offence
Speed: 30ft,
Melee: Dagger +16 (1d4+4, 19-20/x2, 10ft)
Mid: Revolver +16 (1d8 20/x4, 20ft)
Range: Rifle +16 (1d10 20/x4, 80ft), Full-Round vs. Touch (Sight)
Back-Up: Unarmed Strike +16 (1d10+4)
Special Attacks: Scout’s Charge, Skirmisher, Up Close and Deadly.
Two-Weapon:
Dagger or Unarmed: +14/+14/+7/+7
Revolver: +12/+12/+5/+5
Reload: Revolver (Move Action), Rifle (Full-Round Action)
Statistics
Str 18, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 15
Base Attack +11, CMB +15, CMD 20
Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike (H), Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Superior Unarmed Strike, Quick Draw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Point-Blank Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency Firearms (B), Precise Shot, Amateur Gunslinger: Up close and Deadly (B), Extra Grit (B), Rapid Reload (Revolver)
Skills: Acrobatics +22, Climb +21, Disable Device +22, Escape Artist +22, Knowledge (Local) +20, Linguistics +20, Perception +21, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +22, Stealth +22.
Languages: Common, +17
Special Qualities: Rogue Talents (7), Roof Running, Tumbling Descent.
Combat Gear: Dagger x10, Revolver x2, Rifle x1, Far-Reaching Sight, Alchemical Cartridge x90, Studded Leather (+3, +5, -1)
Special Abilities:

Sneak Attack: +8d6 If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage (called "precision damage") anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a dexterity bonus or not), or or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Roof Running: At 1st level, a roof runner becomes entirely adept at moving across the tops of buildings, spires, and similar locations. Provided she is wearing light armor, the roof runner can move at full speed while traveling across the tops of buildings or similar structures, and takes no penalties on any Dexterity-based Skill checks or Reflex saves that might be incurred from moving about on a roof.
This ability replaces trapfinding
Rogue Talents
2: Fast Stealth: Move at full speed while using the stealth skill.
4: Bleeding Attack: Upon dealing a successful sneak attack opponent takes 1 bleed damage per sneak attack die, bleed damage occurs every round until stopped with a DC15 Heal Check), bleed damage does not stack with itself.
6: Ledge Walker: Move at full speed when using the acrobatic skill.
8: Fast Getaway: May move up to feel speed after making a sneak attack
10: Improved Evasion: Take no damage on successful reflex saves, half damage on unsuccessful.
12: Firearm Training: (Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms)
14: Grit (Amateur Gunslinger: Up Close and Deadly (Spend 1 Grit Point to Deal additional precision damage that stacks with other forms [4d6], Extra Grit: +2 Daily Grit, +2 Max Grit [3 per day, 6 Max])
Tumbling Descent: At 2nd level, a roof runner can use her Acrobatics skill to attempt a rapid descent from a rooftop or another surface, ricocheting against another surface and then diving through an opening (such as a balcony or window) directly below. So long as she has at least two surfaces no farther than 10 feet apart to bounce against, she can ricochet her body back from one to the next, descending great distances with a single check. The DC is 10 + 5 for every additional 10-foot increment descended beyond the initial 10 feet dropped. If she fails, she falls the full distance.
This ability replaces trap sense.

Scout’s Charge: At 4th level whenever a scout makes a charge her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Skirmisher: At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than attack this turn this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.
This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
Up Close and Deadly: At 1st level, when the pistolero hits a target with a one-handed firearm that is not making a scatter shot, she can spend 1 grit point to deal 1d6 points of extra damage on a hit. If she misses with the attack, she grazes the target, dealing half the extra damage anyway. She must choose to spend the grit point before she makes the attack roll this is precision damage and is not multiplied if the attack is a critical hit. This precision damage increases to 2d6 at 5th level, to 3d6 at 10th level, to 4d6 at 15th level, and to 5d6 at 20th level. This precision damage stacks with sneak attack and other forms of precision damage.
I've spoiled some stuff for length, this is meant to be the Red Hood version of Todd, yes Sniper would have been better for the ranged attacks, but remember Todd didn't always use firearms, so I thought Roof Runner would be a better fit (and Acrobat seemed too Nightwing/Richard Grayson) If someone could double check to make sure I didn't miss or mistype anything I'd appreciate it. I haven't done health, nor spent my WBL Gold (but I assume I'm under the max, if not, oh well, then you know what I end up being) I think I made the right choice with the single deed I get my other options would be:

Deadeye: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger#TOC-Deeds) Which seemed a little bit redundant to me, it's a great ability but with so few grit points, well I just wanted more bang for my buck (Pun very much intended)

Gunslinger's Dodge: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger#TOC-Deeds) −1 Grit Point for +2 AC and a 5-ft step, or +4 AC and prone, against ranged attacks only... See above pun

Quick Clear: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger#TOC-Deeds) Was the only other choice I thought would be a good fit as a misfire could mess with me, however the Quick Draw feat works as a "Crap, guns jammed, *holsters, draws other gun or dagger* that's better" and having it fixed later.

Focused Aim: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/mysterious-stranger) Wow, Charisma Bonus to damage with all firearm attacks for 1 round, for 1 grit point. And it stacks with an ability I want, but won't get.. Pass.

Steady Aim: (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/musket-master) The deed I replaced with an item, increase range, or full-action to make an attack from any range hit touch... Yeah.

[Tvtyrant]

I would have personally made him a daring outlaw with pistols, and then he simply fought with his fists before he got the guns. He did kinda suck afterall.

[Zonugal]

I think you'd really want to try to get any ability related to explosives.

Perhaps evening dipping into Alchemist for 2-4 levels would grant you the ability to lob out bombs and create explosive missiles.

[Midnight_v]

I really like jason todd... doesn't he fight with kukris?
Cool build overall though.

[ExemplarofAvg]

I would have personally made him a daring outlaw with pistols, and then he simply fought with his fists before he got the guns. He did kinda suck afterall.

Pathfinder, I figured Rogue because Batman (and his family) would know where to strike people to cause the most amount of damage, but still not kill them. (Jason Todd Lv 1 Rogue) Roof Runner just fits Batman and co. and Scout is about movement while fighting and Batman and co. just use that.


I think you'd really want to try to get any ability related to explosives.

Perhaps evening dipping into Alchemist for 2-4 levels would grant you the ability to lob out bombs and create explosive missiles.

I planned to buy some, there's an alchemical grenade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Fuse-Grenade) so, I just need to cut the fuse a little shorter as needed.


I really like jason todd... doesn't he fight with kukris?
Cool build overall though.

He fights with a knife that has a curve in it. More of a crescent knife of sorts. Plus Rogue doesn't get a Kukri, so a Dagger it is. At most I could do Shortsword.

All issues satisfied?

[Zonugal]

I planned to buy some, there's an alchemical grenade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services#TOC-Fuse-Grenade) so, I just need to cut the fuse a little shorter as needed.

Those are great. I'd probably still side a little bit more on the gadget side (I am biased towards the Batman family as huge gadget monkeys). Like I wonder what you could reasonably get away making if the character had access to Craft (Alchemy) or the Master Craftsman feat for Craft Wondrous Item.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Those are great. I'd probably still side a little bit more on the gadget side (I am biased towards the Batman family as huge gadget monkeys). Like I wonder what you could reasonably get away making if the character had access to Craft (Alchemy) or the Master Craftsman feat for Craft Wondrous Item.

Well Batman and Jason Todd, yes, Batman making them, yes, but remember the Red Hood got a lot of his stuff from Ras al Ghul. That's where I'm pulling from.

[Zonugal]

Well Batman and Jason Todd, yes, Batman making them, yes, but remember the Red Hood got a lot of his stuff from Ras al Ghul. That's where I'm pulling from.

Fair point!

[GreyMantle]

My knowledge on PF is rather rusty, I'll admit. But it seems mildly terrible that a 15th level character has 18 AC. In 3.x, at least, that's embarrassingly low for a character of this level.

Unless Jason Todd's ability in the comics was to always get hit by enemies, no matter what. I'm not at all familiar with him, so I guess that could be the case.

Also, 15th level seems a mite bit high for a character who is a sidekick for a dude who primarily spends his time beating up thugs. I could see Batman as being maybe 10th level, at most (in most of his interpretations that I'm familiar with), but certainly not 15th. Which implies that Robin is at most the same level as Batman, but presumably lower.

[Zonugal]

Batman, 10th level?

Ahahahaha.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Fair point!

Thank You.


My knowledge on PF is rather rusty, I'll admit. But it seems mildly terrible that a 15th level character has 18 AC. In 3.x, at least, that's embarrassingly low for a character of this level.

Unless Jason Todd's ability in the comics was to always get hit by enemies, no matter what. I'm not at all familiar with him, so I guess that could be the case.

Also, 15th level seems a mite bit high for a character who is a sidekick for a dude who primarily spends his time beating up thugs. I could see Batman as being maybe 10th level, at most (in most of his interpretations that I'm familiar with), but certainly not 15th. Which implies that Robin is at most the same level as Batman, but presumably lower.

Yes, but do note that I have listed basic armour and have spent little of my characters wealth. And he is a hero in his own right now, he used to be a sidekick. Batman (or at Least Bruce Wayne was 20th level) now that Richard Grayson would be 20th level, Jason Todd is 15th (also the level for the game I'm playing him in) Tim Drake is 10th.


Batman, 10th level?

Ahahahaha.

Agreed.

[GreyMantle]

[about Batman not being 10th level]
Agreed.

Okay, so, clearly, Batman and Robin are both comic book characters that have existed for decades, and they have all had hundreds of people write them in different interpretations. And, because I don't really read comic books, I have personally read or even heard of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the various Batman stories. Honestly, the Batman I am most familiar with is probably Nolan's Batman, maybe followed by the Arkham vidjagegm's Batman.

But, as far as I know, Batman has never:

-Summoned powerful demons or extraplanar beings
-Disintegrated something with a touch
-Teleported long distances
-Had divinatory visions
-Controlled the weather
-Trapped someone's soul
-Turned into iron
-Animated a forest to fight for him
-Brought someone back to life, or even healed someone from grievous wounds in a matter of seconds
-Turned into something really big and hardcore
-Reversed gravity
-Rewritten reality without the magic of arbitrarium


Or, if he has done those things, they've been in weird spinoffs that most people do not know about.


Now, I'm not saying that Batman is not extremely hardcore. Because he totally is. Within the subenvironment of Gotham, he is about as hardcore as they come. And I'd be willing to give him an intelligence of at least 20 or 22. Because he's insanely smart. But he lacks the raw power that a level 10+ d20 character has.

But, by the metric of the d20 system, he does not regularly do things that 10th+ level d20 characters are expected to be able to do. You could make a level 10+ d20 character inspired by Batman or Tim Drake or whoever, but that character would probably murder his/her inspiration in a hypothetical matchup. Now, I'd definitely put my money on Batman over any member of the Fellowship, or many mythological heroes, or any character from aSoIaF. But, as far as I know, he only beats Superman when Supes is pulling his punches or has been written to act stupid and beatable.



Now I eagerly await for everyone to jump out with issue after issue of Batman komix where he does every single one of my "high-level" examples.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Okay, so, clearly, Batman and Robin are both comic book characters that have existed for decades, and they have all had hundreds of people write them in different interpretations. And, because I don't really read comic books, I have personally read or even heard of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the various Batman stories. Honestly, the Batman I am most familiar with is probably Nolan's Batman, maybe followed by the Arkham vidjagegm's Batman.

But, as far as I know, Batman has never:

-Summoned powerful demons or extraplanar beings
-Disintegrated something with a touch
-Teleported long distances
-Had divinatory visions
-Controlled the weather
-Trapped someone's soul
-Turned into iron
-Animated a forest to fight for him
-Brought someone back to life, or even healed someone from grievous wounds in a matter of seconds
-Turned into something really big and hardcore
-Reversed gravity
-Rewritten reality without the magic of arbitrarium


Or, if he has done those things, they've been in weird spinoffs that most people do not know about.


Now, I'm not saying that Batman is not extremely hardcore. Because he totally is. Within the subenvironment of Gotham, he is about as hardcore as they come. And I'd be willing to give him an intelligence of at least 20 or 22. Because he's insanely smart. But he lacks the raw power that a level 10+ d20 character has.

But, by the metric of the d20 system, he does not regularly do things that 10th+ level d20 characters are expected to be able to do. You could make a level 10+ d20 character inspired by Batman or Tim Drake or whoever, but that character would probably murder his/her inspiration in a hypothetical matchup. Now, I'd definitely put my money on Batman over any member of the Fellowship, or many mythological heroes, or any character from aSoIaF. But, as far as I know, he only beats Superman when Supes is pulling his punches or has been written to act stupid and beatable.



Now I eagerly await for everyone to jump out with issue after issue of Batman komix where he does every single one of my "high-level" examples.

He doesn't, you're just looking at the level 20 of the wrong classes. A non-lethal, unarmed strike sneak attack that can knock someone out right away, brought about from attacking from behind (after gliding through the night) or feinting your opponent, throwing multiple shuriken accurately, jumping, climbing, swinging, gliding. That is more Batman. The Batman Wizard Build is all about having the solution to problems with the utmost of preparedness and gadgetry, and is more of a battlefield controller (from what I understand) than a direct god. But as a direct representation of Batman, it does lack, a Monk, Ninja, Ranger or Rogue all fit Batman a little better due to skill sets and combat roles.
Batman isn't god, he's just a man in a mask doing the best that he can.

[GreyMantle]

He doesn't, you're just looking at the level 20 of the wrong classes. A non-lethal, unarmed strike sneak attack that can knock someone out right away, brought about from attacking from behind (after gliding through the night) or feinting your opponent, throwing multiple shuriken accurately, jumping, climbing, swinging, gliding. That is more Batman. The Batman Wizard Build is all about having the solution to problems with the utmost of preparedness and gadgetry, and is more of a battlefield controller (from what I understand) than a direct god. But as a direct representation of Batman, it does lack, a Monk, Ninja, Ranger or Rogue all fit Batman a little better due to skill sets and combat roles.
Batman isn't god, he's just a man in a mask doing the best that he can.

Then he's not a high-level character. Martial classes in 3.x, barring extreme MC intervention, are never high-level characters. They are incapable of participating in high-level challenges. Everything I know about PF sez that Bulmahn & co made a few minor changes and then shouted "Done!" and started selling their books. Which would imply that martial characters are similarly short in the pants in this area in comparison to their 3.x brethren.

Definitionally, have a CR of x implies that you are able to go 50/50 against most single creatures also of CR x. And it also implies that you are able to bypass high-level challenges. Now, I know that most 3.x martial characters cannot do those things. Back before 4E, they showed this pretty conclusively, like with tests and stuff. As far as I know, Batman can do neither of those things. If you put him against a Titan, or a big old dragon, or some major fiend, he's probably going to lose. But we shouldn't really care about that.

I have no problem with the concept of the "Batman Wizard." Actually, I totally dig it. It's a really cool build, and if I ended up on the player's side of the MC screen more often I would like to give it a shot. But "Batman Wizard" /= "Batman," like at all.

And this is because Gotham City is, fundamentally, a lowlevel environment. Batman spends most of his time fighting thugs and psychopaths. These people are mean, they are dangerous, but they're not actually high-level by any reasonable definition.

In 3.x we have a word for someone who "isn't god." And that word is "lowlevel."

[wayfare]

Then he's not a high-level character. Martial classes in 3.x, barring extreme MC intervention, are never high-level characters. They are incapable of participating in high-level challenges. Everything I know about PF sez that Bulmahn & co made a few minor changes and then shouted "Done!" and started selling their books. Which would imply that martial characters are similarly short in the pants in this area in comparison to their 3.x brethren.

Definitionally, have a CR of x implies that you are able to go 50/50 against most single creatures also of CR x. And it also implies that you are able to bypass high-level challenges. Now, I know that most 3.x martial characters cannot do those things. Back before 4E, they showed this pretty conclusively, like with tests and stuff. As far as I know, Batman can do neither of those things. If you put him against a Titan, or a big old dragon, or some major fiend, he's probably going to lose. But we shouldn't really care about that.

I have no problem with the concept of the "Batman Wizard." Actually, I totally dig it. It's a really cool build, and if I ended up on the player's side of the MC screen more often I would like to give it a shot. But "Batman Wizard" /= "Batman," like at all.

And this is because Gotham City is, fundamentally, a lowlevel environment. Batman spends most of his time fighting thugs and psychopaths. These people are mean, they are dangerous, but they're not actually high-level by any reasonable definition.

In 3.x we have a word for someone who "isn't god." And that word is "lowlevel."

I am not sure i take your point, but there are level 20 experts. Just because Wizards are OP doesn't mean that other classes don't have high levels.

Also, I thought CR was a party measure, not an individual measure -- with 4 people you should be able to fight 1 "X".

Finally, you are assuming that Gotham is a low CR territory, and its not. Its just not full of optimizers.

Joker = Joker Bard 20?

Mr. Freeze = Kineticist 16 with a focus on cold effects OR Expert X into Cryokineticist.

Bane = Rogue 6/Barbarian 14

Killer Croc: Barbarian 12

[GreyMantle]

I am not sure i take your point, but there are level 20 experts. Just because Wizards are OP doesn't mean that other classes don't have high levels.


The Expert class is completely irrelevant because, like 3.x martial classes, it cannot meaningfully compete at the high-level metrics. The idea of a level 20 expert, like a level 20 Commoner who isn't chicken-infested, needs to go die in a fire.



Also, I thought CR was a party measure, not an individual measure -- with 4 people you should be able to fight 1 "X".


This is actually not true. The 3.0 DMG is very clear, with charts and stuff, that being CR x means that you should be able to go 50/50 with most CR x creatures. We also have a wealth of information and character blocks that state that a character of level x is, at least nominally, CR x. Doubling the number of creatures in a group increases their group's CR (or EL) by 2. The standard party of 4 characters, all of level x, thus has a combined CR of x+4. This means that, in a basic cagematch, they should have a 100% win rate against a monster of CR x, a 75% win rate against a creature of CR x+2, and an even steven chance against a creature of level x+4. As I recall, the 3.0 DMG is really pretty clear on this stuff.

The 3.5 rerelease obfuscated this clarity by removing the charts and replacing them with additional verbiage, but I'm fairly certain that the actual content remains unchanged.

(4E, as far as I can tell, does not necessarily have a similar metric. But I haven't read enough of its books to know for sure.)



Finally, you are assuming that Gotham is a low CR territory, and its not. Its just not full of optimizers.

Joker = Joker Bard 20?


As 20th level Bard is extremely likely to be able to do things such as animate object to fight for him, use hardcore illusions at the drop of a hat, reprogram people's minds, and scry on people. I don't think the Joker regularly does this sort of thing at all.



Mr. Freeze = Kineticist 16 with a focus on cold effects OR Expert X into Cryokineticist.


My only real contact with Freeze comes from the godawful Schwarzenegger movie and Arkham City, but he didn't seem to use any abilities in that that could not be explained by a below level 10 character. If you have actual counterexamples and not just claims, please share them.

I don't think Freeze has ever teleported, induced insanity, or rewrote reality. He probably has used something like energy wave, but we don't actually because that's not actually an 8th level power.



Bane = Rogue 6/Barbarian 14

Killer Croc: Barbarian 12


I know virtually nothing about these characters.

Bane being 20th level would imply that he is able to go toe-to-toe with Superman or the Incredible Hulk. If you think that's possible, then please present relevant data to support this claim.

In KC's Arkham City bossfight, he seemed decently hardcore. Maybe 12th level is a good fit for him, I honestly don't know. I would probably say something 3 to 5 levels lower, but that's very much based on loose and inaccurate intuitions.




This seems to be the whole "Gandalf was a 6th level magicuser" thing. Just because someone is the most powerful individual within his or her personal setting does not that said person is level 20. Level/CR is meant to be an objective, absolute evaluation of powerlevel. And, judged on what objective evidence we can surmise or examine, no one in Batman's regular list of characters is a high-level character, by the d20 metric.

[Invader]

I like the build and the special abilities seem fitting but it seems like he has a lot powers for a 15th level character.

[Zonugal]

Now I eagerly await for everyone to jump out with issue after issue of Batman komix where he does every single one of my "high-level" examples.

First of all, Happy Memorial Day (if you are in the US)!

With that said, lets dissect your approach. Initially I can understand where you may be coming from if you aren't too familiar with the character of Batman. Now I'd be willing to drastically put the Nolan Batman at a lower-level (the version of the character you are most familiar with). I'd likely place him as a Human Rogue 1/Monk 1/Rogue 2/Urban Ranger 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1 as he isn't really going against very "intense" foes.

But the problem is taking this interpretation of the character & spreading it across to every single other version of the character.

Now for my approach to Batman being 20th-level I am going to use the DCAU version of the character and examine what it means to both be the guardian of Gotham City & be a founding member of the Justice League.

Now the first problem I have with your interpretation is the belief that non-casters can't reach high levels. This simply is only your belief, and you are entitled to it, but don't hold it as a hard & fast rule for the entire collective system & its attachments.

But you are right in a sense that Batman isn't playing around in the same field as a high level caster, because he isn't a high level caster. Batman is a skill user. He is the the skill user. In D&D he is the non-caster equivalent of a caster. He is smart enough, skilled enough and with enough resources to handle nearly any foe. This is a guy who has handled Darkseid, a living God in DC, on a battlefield. He's helped hold off alien invasions, he's stopped global emergencies, he's solved intricate conspiracies, ect... Basically if a spell doesn't need to be cast, Batman is likely to be able to handle the situation.

But I should be honest in my approach to how I might portray Batman in 3.5 E. He'd have countless skills so Rogue is naturally going to find its way in, he's a skilled combatant so a level or two of Fighter & Urban Ranger will be dropped in, he's a skilled martial artist so maybe a level of monk and most of all he'd have at least a couple levels of Artificer as he is the living embodiment of gadget-use. He'd end up looking something like this: Human Rogue 1/Monk 1/Rogue 4/Monk 1/Urban Ranger 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Artificer 5/Rogue 5. He'd end up at BaB +14 (which is reasonable for someone as skill-focused as he is), Sneak Attack 7d6, Unarmed Strike of 2d6 with Ascetic Rogue, and the ability to craft a scroll, potion, wondrous item, & armor/weapons with access to 4th-level spells from every spell-list in the game. Now this is a pretty rough build thrown together but it hopefully showcases where I am coming from.


Then he's not a high-level character. Martial classes in 3.x, barring extreme MC intervention, are never high-level characters. They are incapable of participating in high-level challenges. Everything I know about PF sez that Bulmahn & co made a few minor changes and then shouted "Done!" and started selling their books. Which would imply that martial characters are similarly short in the pants in this area in comparison to their 3.x brethren.

This is once again an approach built upon a vastly different perspective. A 20th-level skill monkey is handling different problems than a 20th-level caster, because they are different types of characters.


And this is because Gotham City is, fundamentally, a lowlevel environment. Batman spends most of his time fighting thugs and psychopaths. These people are mean, they are dangerous, but they're not actually high-level by any reasonable definition.

This is perhaps where I might win you over as your interpretation of Batman's foes is wildly off-base. These are not common foes... And in a standard D&D game they would be likely translated into this:

The Joker: A Vecna-Blooded Bard who is untraceable by any magical means and enough skill to seriously wreck any town given time to hatch a plan.
The Riddler: An Artificer focusing on high-scale traps requiring expert skill use to get past.
The Scarecrow: A caster focusing on fear-effects and air-born poisons.
Firefly: A Sorcerer focused towards fire-based spells & effects.
Ra's al Ghul: An immortal (so pick either Vampire or Lich) gish who launches global threats with his organization of highly trained ninjas.
Bane: A martial character built very well (some combination of Barbarian, Warblade, Crusader, and more).
Mr. Freeze: An Archivist focused towards cold-based spells & effects.

I mean out of those how many are spellcasters?

So while Batman's most common foe is a very low-level thug his rogue gallery is stacked with incredibly dangerous/powerful opponents.

[Dr_S]

The thing is batman is written in so many different ways, most of the comic writers were batman fans growing up so MANY batman comics read like bad fan fiction where to say batman has no superpowers is a bit of a stretch if not an outright lie. The cartoons scaled him back a little, and a lot of the better batman writers for comics put him at what I would call a lvl 16 range or so.

Nolan batman probably is close to 10, maybe higher because of all those wasted ninja levels (you can't have him train as a ninja in the movie and not give him ninja levels guy who posted before me who's name I can't see without scrolling down! ahem I mean Zonugal)

**** Grayson as night wing STILL cannot go toe to toe with batman... Batman and Bruce Wayne have different stats I'd say... specifically Charisma, as the Billionaire he's pretty good at faking being the life of the party, but in the Bat suit, his CHA is garbage... so his leadership score is probably only "meh"

so Grayson as Robin probably 3-4 Levels behind batman, and has probably gained a couple by now.

Then Todd was recruited at low level and had not gained enough experience yet so he wasn't ready for an encounter with Joker. When brought back to life Ras trained him for a few levels

but that lowered Batman's leadership score further, so even though Drake was with him for a long time he's probably at least 4-5 levels below batman. He hasn't had much time on his own to gain new levels so he's probably only a level or so higher now that he's solo.

Then there was the brief stint with Stephanie Brown who died but not really, not sure if that effected Batman's leadership score.

Which leads us to Damian Wayne who is a sociopath and their opposing alignments probably dropped batman's leadership score a little.

So pretending a good writer we're probably looking at:
Batman: 16
Grayson(Robin): 12
Grayson(Nightwing):14
Todd(Robin):8 (remember he didn't last all that long)
Todd(Red Hood):13 (He gives Grayson a run for his money but I don't think he's as strong, just willing to use dirtier tricks)
Drake(Robin):10
Drake(Red Robin):11
Wayne(Robin):8

Roughly, give or take depending on the writer again more than anything.
Nothing is more frustrating as a non-batman fan when Batman makes cross over appearances because then you find out that the writers for Green Lantern or Flash are Batman Fanbois too... So my scores above are assuming non-fanboi writers or at least writers willing to "dumb him down" to make a more interesting story because when he's dialed up to 20 it's a lot of cool scenes with no interesting story tying them together.

[Zonugal]

Nolan batman probably is close to 10, maybe higher because of all those wasted ninja levels (you can't have him train as a ninja in the movie and not give him ninja levels guy who posted before me who's name I can't see without scrolling down! ahem I mean Zonugal)

Oh, I did though. I just did a mix of Rogue & Monk with Ascetic Monk, which we all know not only confers the thematic idea of a Ninja but does it better than the actual Ninja class.


Batman and Bruce Wayne have different stats I'd say... specifically Charisma, as the Billionaire he's pretty good at faking being the life of the party, but in the Bat suit, his CHA is garbage... so his leadership score is probably only "meh"

Charisma is utilized in different ways. While as Bruce Wayne he is diplomatic and suave, when he's Batman he is intimidating and fierce. Both are charismatic, just in different applications.

[Dr_S]

I think he just takes ranks in intimidate... he doesn't really bluff or try to reason with people, he doesn't perform, he only intimidates, and at that level, he could have enough ranks in intimidate that his charisma modifier doesn't matter.

he does use disguise though obviously. But since he breaks WBL by being a billionaire (who inherited it so he had this at level 1) he probably gets a bonus for "masterwork disguise kit" and he doesn't really get up in people's faces who know bruce wayne. On the other hand he has had his identity discerned more than once so how good IS he at disguise? Either way both are class skills so ranks are perfectly acceptable.

He just comes across as socially inept when dealing with other good guys, and it would explain why his cohort was so many levels below him... P.S. whatever batman build you're making remember to give him leadership :P

I mean he can't have ALL good stats eh?

[Zonugal]

I don't know...

He uses a lot of disguises, not just Bruce Wayne.

One of them is so good that he is able to beat a Telepath.

Nuff said...

[wayfare]

The Expert class is completely irrelevant because, like 3.x martial classes, it cannot meaningfully compete at the high-level metrics. The idea of a level 20 expert, like a level 20 Commoner who isn't chicken-infested, needs to go die in a fire.

As 20th level Bard is extremely likely to be able to do things such as animate object to fight for him, use hardcore illusions at the drop of a hat, reprogram people's minds, and scry on people. I don't think the Joker regularly does this sort of thing at all.

My only real contact with Freeze comes from the godawful Schwarzenegger movie and Arkham City, but he didn't seem to use any abilities in that that could not be explained by a below level 10 character. If you have actual counterexamples and not just claims, please share them.

I don't think Freeze has ever teleported, induced insanity, or rewrote reality. He probably has used something like energy wave, but we don't actually because that's not actually an 8th level power.

Bane being 20th level would imply that he is able to go toe-to-toe with Superman or the Incredible Hulk. If you think that's possible, then please present relevant data to support this claim.

In KC's Arkham City bossfight, he seemed decently hardcore. Maybe 12th level is a good fit for him, I honestly don't know. I would probably say something 3 to 5 levels lower, but that's very much based on loose and inaccurate intuitions.


This seems to be the whole "Gandalf was a 6th level magicuser" thing. Just because someone is the most powerful individual within his or her personal setting does not that said person is level 20. Level/CR is meant to be an objective, absolute evaluation of powerlevel. And, judged on what objective evidence we can surmise or examine, no one in Batman's regular list of characters is a high-level character, by the d20 metric.

Ok, we are using very different metrics here (Movies v. Comics), which I will get to, but i think the fundamental issue is one of optimization:

Nothing in the rules states that a Rogue can't make it to 20. Just because Wizards and Clerics are BETTER at 20 doesn't mean that other classes can't make it.

Secondly, CR is not objective. CR is a bad ruler if treated as law and an ok ruler if treated as a suggestion. Case in point...any wizard with prep ever; Any Artificer with a pile o magic items; That Damn Crab; Angels Planetar through Solar. All of these are higher CR than the number at the bottom of the page suggest. Solars can summon armies, That Damn Crab will kill a party through crunchy squishiness, and a prepped wizard can create a loop or a trap or a "transmute city into hedgehogs" bomb.

Which leads me to my second point. Level =/= CR. Martial classes (that are not the ToB classes) have a CR 2-3 points below their level.

Wizard/Cleric/Archivist/Artificer/Psion/Sorcerer have a CR thats 2-3 levels above their level If not optimized.

The Tier 3-4 classes are right about correct CR.

Ok, as for the characters themselves, this is a case in point kind of situation:

Joker is a Joker Bard who does not animate objects to fight. He has an extensive spy list (scrying), can drive people mad, coerce folks like nobody else, and is immune to divination (except in the movie).

Your suggestion about Bane really drives this home. See, Rogue 5, Barbarian 15 isnt a bad build for the guy -- he is a person who can briefly make himself very mildly super strong. Like able to lift a ton.

D&D is not built to support a superman type character. He has no levels, he is a greater divinity. This guy moves at ftl speeds, can contain black holes with his hands, can dodge lasers, etc.
Hulk has punched asteroids the size of the moon in two, held open dimensional portals with main strength, and carried a mountain range. Not a mountain -- several mountains.

Could you get numbers that match some of these feats...maybe, with punpun you certainly could. But they would be Stupidly high, like in the tens of thousands?

[GreyMantle]

Thank you for your thoughts, Zonugal. They were informative and engaging.

Now, to consider some specific points.



Now the first problem I have with your interpretation is the belief that non-casters can't reach high levels. This simply is only your belief, and you are entitled to it, but don't hold it as a hard & fast rule for the entire collective system & its attachments.


I don't actually believe this, and I apologize if this was the opinion I seemed to be advocating for. I am by no means a "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" dude.

I do believe that most, if not all, of the published 3.x martial classes cannot compete in a highlevel environment without a nonconsiderable amount of MC fiat. You can make ubercharger fighters and such that can often kill highlevel creatures, but they lack the abilities to participate in most relevant story and environmental events.

Now, such characters could totally exist within a D&D/PF setting. If we're staying within the superhero milieu, we'd take inspiration from The Hulk, Superman, Ironman, Jean Grey, Magneto, Martian Manhunter, etc, etc.

But I don't honestly know if Batman is a legitimately high-level character.



This is once again an approach built upon a vastly different perspective. A 20th-level skill monkey is handling different problems than a 20th-level caster, because they are different types of characters.


I don't think that you are correct here. If, in 3.x, a character is level x, then that character should be able to handle most level x threats. Some characters will be better at fighting certain threats, yes. But, in the aggregate, if you have some number of level x characters and some number of level x threats, each character should be able to handle roughly equivalent numbers of threats.

Now, a skill-based character will handle threats in a different way than a caster character would. This is something we actively want and desire, to prevent 4E-esque homogeneity. I would not expect Ironman and The Hulk to handle a problem in the same way. That would be stupid. But they should both be able to handle the same problems.



But you are right in a sense that Batman isn't playing around in the same field as a high level caster, because he isn't a high level caster. Batman is a skill user. He is the the skill user. In D&D he is the non-caster equivalent of a caster. He is smart enough, skilled enough and with enough resources to handle nearly any foe. This is a guy who has handled Darkseid, a living God in DC, on a battlefield.


I barely know who Darkseid is. But apparently he is a god. Okay. Cool.

First, we should state the obvious: someone being a god does not establish a real estimation of their power.

Examples: In Malazan Book of the Fallen, being a God just means that you're, at the very least, more hardcore than most common footsoldiers. But there are many mortals who are way more powerful than most of the gods.

In Thor (the recent movie), Thor is (more or less) a god, and I can't see him as being more than 12th or 13th level.

In the Old Testament, YHWH is unable to clear some dudes for his followers because they had chariots of iron. I imagine Batman could definitely accomplish that.



"And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."


So, Batman defeating Darkseid, a divinity, does not inherently mean anything. But it easily could. So could you please explain Darkseid's statistics and powers. Does he actually seem like he would be a lvl 15+ character in 3.x? I don't know here.



He's helped hold off alien invasions, he's stopped global emergencies, he's solved intricate conspiracies, ect...


Neither of those are necessarily highlevel threats. The European conquest of America, for example, was an alien invasion that was solidly lowlevel. And the Da Vinci Code was an intricate conspiracy that did not feature a single character above level 3.

They totally could be highlevel threats. In Whedon's Avengers movie, that invasion is solidly level 10+. The conspiracy in Deus Ex involves cyborgs that could be like level 8 or 9, maybe. But saying that Batman has fended them off does not make him a highlevel character.



Now for my approach to Batman being 20th-level I am going to use the DCAU version of the character and examine what it means to both be the guardian of Gotham City & be a founding member of the Justice League.


I am fairly unfamiliar with DCAU's version of Batman beyond the fact that it exists. Presumably Batman interacts with Superman and other highlevel characters in it. But when he does, does he survive via author fiat and such, or does he actually develop powers commensurate with the highlevel supers. I'm assuming some degree of power creep happens, but how noticeable is it?



The Joker: A Vecna-Blooded Bard who is untraceable by any magical means and enough skill to seriously wreck any town given time to hatch a plan.
The Riddler: An Artificer focusing on high-scale traps requiring expert skill use to get past.
The Scarecrow: A caster focusing on fear-effects and air-born poisons.
Firefly: A Sorcerer focused towards fire-based spells & effects.
Ra's al Ghul: An immortal (so pick either Vampire or Lich) gish who launches global threats with his organization of highly trained ninjas.
Bane: A martial character built very well (some combination of Barbarian, Warblade, Crusader, and more).
Mr. Freeze: An Archivist focused towards cold-based spells & effects.


Okay, so these are all D&D characters very clearly inspired by their DC counterparts. I have no qualms with you claiming that. But do their actual DC portrayals have abilities that place them, in 3.x's level metric, as level 10+ adversaries? We've both agreed that Nolan's Batman is E6 material. But, say, Arkham City's Batman does not seem noticeably more hardcore than C-Bale. I remember also reading a comic in which Gotham had been more or less abandoned after an earthquake. And, in that one, Batman was hardcore, but I don' think he was hardcore in any way that, say, a Shadowrun character could not be hardcore. And Runners reach like 8th level at best, in 3.x terms.




So far, this discussion has witnessed a noticeable lack of actual evidence presented by either side. So please show legitimate data that present Batman as a highlevel character. And then we'll have resolution.

[GreyMantle]

[Apologies for the double post, but I figured I'd have a go at Wayfarer too.]




Nothing in the rules states that a Rogue can't make it to 20. Just because Wizards and Clerics are BETTER at 20 doesn't mean that other classes can't make it.


Rogues can totally be level 20 characters. As can Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Samurai, and Healers. But that does not make them highlevel characters.

Rogues actually can be highlevel characters, mostly from the Hurler Build and UMD. Which is pretty cool.

But Fighters, Barbs, etc. never really make it into the high-level arena.



Secondly, CR is not objective. CR is a bad ruler if treated as law and an ok ruler if treated as a suggestion. Case in point...any wizard with prep ever; Any Artificer with a pile o magic items; That Damn Crab; Angels Planetar through Solar. All of these are higher CR than the number at the bottom of the page suggest. Solars can summon armies, That Damn Crab will kill a party through crunchy squishiness, and a prepped wizard can create a loop or a trap or a "transmute city into hedgehogs" bomb.


Oh, definitely. CR is a total mess. Throughout 3.x's lifespan, there have a hilarious number of situations in which the real CR of something is blatantly not even remotely close to its assigned CR. I don't think we have any disagreement here.

Minor quibble: I have no problem with Solars, who are CR 23, being able to summon an army. I would probably be more offended if they were not able to summon an army.



Joker is a Joker Bard who does not animate objects to fight. He has an extensive spy list (scrying), can drive people mad, coerce folks like nobody else, and is immune to divination (except in the movie).


The Joker can do a lot. But it seems like he generally requires a bit of preparation and downtime before he can assemble a spy network. Whereas a Bard can ping! up to a new level, learn scrying, and use it with zero prep-time. (Besides acquiring the material focus.) Similarly, I don't think the Joker has ever driven someone insane in less than 5 or 10 minutes. insanity has a casting time of 1 standard action. There is a huge difference in the possible utility of being able to drive someone insane in 10 minutes versus being able to do it in less than 6 seconds.



Your suggestion about Bane really drives this home. See, Rogue 5, Barbarian 15 isnt a bad build for the guy -- he is a person who can briefly make himself very mildly super strong. Like able to lift a ton.


Okay, that's a valid point. However, checking the 3.5 PHB reveals that a Str score in the mid 20s can let you lift 1000 lbs. Which is definitely achievable way before level 20.



D&D is not built to support a superman type character. He has no levels, he is a greater divinity. This guy moves at ftl speeds, can contain black holes with his hands, can dodge lasers, etc.
Hulk has punched asteroids the size of the moon in two, held open dimensional portals with main strength, and carried a mountain range. Not a mountain -- several mountains.


Actually, I'd consider Superman a decent example of a level 20 noncaster character. When you consider the completely rikokulous shenanigans a level 20 wizard can do, many of Superman's achievement do not seem all that absurd.

[wayfare]

Ok , Batman feats

1) Builds Brother Eye, a sentient satellite that hacks into the worlds systems and effectively grants permanent mega-scrying. (Pre-infinie Crisis)

2) Dodges the Omega Sanction, an energy blast of incalculable power that can render most beings to ash and bring Superman to his knees. (DCAU)

3) Creates mech-suit strong enough to battle Wonder Woman to a stand-still. Is also a good enough fighter to match her blow for blow (Wonder Woman is a hair less powerful than superman, and it is established that she is a better fighter [being an amazon and all]). (Kingdom Come)

4) Creates an nano-suit that can shapeshift, defend against psychic attacks, grant superhuman strength, agility and durability (Imagine combining the powers of a soulknife, with the buffs of a 10th level cleric). (Batman Beyond)

5) Bluffs psychics.

6) Lifts a gorilla, beats up multiple tigers, etc

7) Builds Bat-everything: planes, subs, even a flying fortress.

Basically, he is a high level artificer/rogue

[GreyMantle]

Nice, data! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPm_9YWRKMA)



1) Builds Brother Eye, a sentient satellite that hacks into the worlds systems and effectively grants permanent mega-scrying. (Pre-infinie Crisis)


That seems fairly hardcore. Definitely at least 9th level. My question, though, is this: What sort of opposing resources does Batman have to contend with to do this? That is, does each system have its own superhacker that Batman rips apart and defeats? Or is it more of a CIA thing, where he just overcomes a vast array of mook defenses to put in place his own systems?



2) Dodges the Omega Sanction, an energy blast of incalculable power that can render most beings to ash and bring Superman to his knees. (DCAU)


Are you talking about this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y8WqbrhAs4)? Because that is fairly impressive. But it's not necessarily that much worse than a disintegrate spell. Which is an 11th level ability.



3) Creates mech-suit strong enough to battle Wonder Woman to a stand-still. Is also a good enough fighter to match her blow for blow (Wonder Woman is a hair less powerful than superman, and it is established that she is a better fighter [being an amazon and all]). (Kingdom Come)


This also feels pretty neato. My only caveat is thus: Is the Wonderwoman portrayed in Kingdom Come presented as the sort of character who is only slightly less powerful than Superman? If so, I have no problem in conceding this one.



4) Creates an nano-suit that can shapeshift, defend against psychic attacks, grant superhuman strength, agility and durability (Imagine combining the powers of a soulknife, with the buffs of a 10th level cleric). (Batman Beyond)


... So he's a 10th level cleric?



5) Bluffs psychics.


Clearly depends on the psychic in question. For example, Mr. Bennet in heroes can totally bluff Matt Parkman, and Mr. Bennet is totally a lowlevel character.



6) Lifts a gorilla, beats up multiple tigers, etc


If we go by 3.5's assigned CRs, these are not highlevel threats. Even if they're Dire animals.



7) Builds Bat-everything: planes, subs, even a flying fortress.


Now this is really where a level system breaks down. I mean, Nick Fury and SHIELD build that giant helicarrier thingy, and I'm assuming that Nick Fury is not as individually hardcore as Tony Stark. As you mentioned in your earlier post, crafting often destroys a CR system. I'm willing to sort of concede, sort of handwave this point.



But cool. We are definitely reaching a consensus, and we seem to have established that highish level interpretations of Batman seem to exist.

[Zonugal]

Thank you for your thoughts, Zonugal. They were informative and engaging.

Thank you.

AND HERE WE GO!


Now, to consider some specific points.

I don't actually believe this, and I apologize if this was the opinion I seemed to be advocating for. I am by no means a "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" dude.

I do believe that most, if not all, of the published 3.x martial classes cannot compete in a highlevel environment without a nonconsiderable amount of MC fiat. You can make ubercharger fighters and such that can often kill highlevel creatures, but they lack the abilities to participate in most relevant story and environmental events.

Now, such characters could totally exist within a D&D/PF setting. If we're staying within the superhero milieu, we'd take inspiration from The Hulk, Superman, Ironman, Jean Grey, Magneto, Martian Manhunter, etc, etc.

But I don't honestly know if Batman is a legitimately high-level character.

I think it merely depends on the situation. Because just like in comics there are some threats/obstacles/problems that Superman can't over-come, same for Batman. Each character has a supreme set of talents.


I don't think that you are correct here. If, in 3.x, a character is level x, then that character should be able to handle most level x threats. Some characters will be better at fighting certain threats, yes. But, in the aggregate, if you have some number of level x characters and some number of level x threats, each character should be able to handle roughly equivalent numbers of threats.

Now, a skill-based character will handle threats in a different way than a caster character would. This is something we actively want and desire, to prevent 4E-esque homogeneity. I would not expect Ironman and The Hulk to handle a problem in the same way. That would be stupid. But they should both be able to handle the same problems.

I believe the build I presented for Batman could handle most level-appropriate challenges. He'd, just like in the comics/TV/films, have to have time to prepare.


I barely know who Darkseid is. But apparently he is a god. Okay. Cool.

First, we should state the obvious: someone being a god does not establish a real estimation of their power.

Examples: In Malazan Book of the Fallen, being a God just means that you're, at the very least, more hardcore than most common footsoldiers. But there are many mortals who are way more powerful than most of the gods.

In Thor (the recent movie), Thor is (more or less) a god, and I can't see him as being more than 12th or 13th level.

In the Old Testament, YHWH is unable to clear some dudes for his followers because they had chariots of iron. I imagine Batman could definitely accomplish that.

So, Batman defeating Darkseid, a divinity, does not inherently mean anything. But it easily could. So could you please explain Darkseid's statistics and powers. Does he actually seem like he would be a lvl 15+ character in 3.x? I don't know here.

I'll just copy & paste his abilities/powers perhaps?


Powers

New God Physiology: The beings of Apokolips call themselves Gods and live outside of normal time and space in a realm called the Fourth World. These New Gods have evolved due to their close proximity to the Source, a primeval energy, believed to be one of the ultimate foundations of the Universal Expression of Energy, along with their superior technology, into beings of genetic stability and evolutionary perfection. The denizens of New Genesis are immortal, stronger, faster, and smarter than homo sapiens, despite their resemblance.

Superhuman Strength: Darkseid is an extremely powerful alien hailing from planet Apokolips, who possesses colossal super-strength. Darkseid's full strength potential varies depending on the incarnation. Overall, because he is a high-tier cosmic being, Darkseid can easily overpower and kill humans and most galactic beings, he can bend and break through virtually any man-made material, and can lift extremely heavy objects, decimate full-sized buildings and other structures with his might. He possesses enough strength to match beings such as Superman and Wonder Woman in combat. Depending on the incarnation, he could overpower Superman with nothing but brute strength, or vice versa. As a god of New Genesis, he is able to break even the strongest of metals, once breaking a Green Lantern Ring with his bare hands. It is generally accepted that Darkseid is sufficiently strong to lift 100 tons with minimal effort and is among the universe's strongest beings.

Superhuman Speed: Although rarely displayed, Darkseid can react and maneuver faster than the healthiest and strongest human athlete who partakes in daily exercise. However, Darkseid can't run or move nearly as fast as speeders like Superman or the Flash. In some cases, however, he would often surprise Superman by appearing right behind him. It has been seen that Darkseid can react in microseconds.

Superhuman Stamina: It is generally accepted that Darkseid can maintain continuous movement and strenuous exercise for unlimited periods of time without ever getting weary or tired in the process, and in that regard, he can battle other aliens for extended amounts of time before tiring.

Invulnerability: Darkseid is extremely resistant to most forms of physical and mental harm. Darkseid's full durability capacity varies depending on the incarnation. Overall, because he is a high-tier cosmic being, humans couldn't even begin to harm him, bullets bounce off him, rockets, bombs and lasers won't even leave a mark on him, and high-voltage energy emissions can't penetrate through him. He is completely immune to all earthly diseases and viruses. Despite his resistance, other high-tier cosmic beings like Superman or the Martian Manhunter can cause him great distress and pain. Also, materials forged from his home world can hurt him as well.

Immortality: As a god of New Genesis, Darkseid live almost indefinitely, as he can't age, wither, or degrade. However, though it is nearly impossible for him to die, other high-tier aliens like Kryptonians can kill him.

Omega Effect: Darkseid wields a cosmic energy field called "Omega Effect", which proves integral, as it is the core from which his other abilities manifest from. This effect allows him to transverse through time and space, also enabling him to break interpretable barriers and force-fields.

Omega Beams: Darkseid's main power. He focuses this power as a form of energy that he fires from his eyes. This effect is not only a relentless attack, but it is capable of teleporting the target to any location Darkseid chooses and recall them later or erase the target from the universe and similarly reform them. Darkseid has pinpoint control over his Omega Beams, and his unerring aim allows it to travel in straight lines or bend, twist or curve around corners. It has been shown that the Omega Beams are ineffective against the bracelets of Wonder Woman, as they were created from the Olympian Aegis. He has claimed that no being had yet withstood the full force of the Omega Beam, but Doomsday and Superman nonetheless survived the attack.

Telepathy: Darkseid can easily read minds of others anywhere in entire Universe. In this ability, he can also attack or invade someone's mind with images.

Mind Control: Darkseid can control the actions, thoughts and speech of humans just by thinking. In the scope of this ability, he can apparently, control and take over 100 individuals at once, indicating the capacity potential his brain can achieve.

Telekinesis: Darkseid can mentally influence the movement of objects and people with his mind; he often makes things float with simple gestures of his hand.

Matter Manipulation: Darkseid can transmute and manipulate matter, and in extension atoms, at will; he can destroy humans with a mere thought, and as such, he can even create his own creature complexions by design out of nothing, as he did when he created the being known as Strayne. Also, Darkseid can cause organisms to degrade and de-evolve.

Molecular Dispersion: He is also able to dissipate and disperse the molecules of an object or organism, effectively erasing them from existence.

Avatar Creation: A simple thought allows Darkseid to create liable avatars if/when the need arises.

Psionic Possession: He possesses psychic abilities to possess an individual and negate any superhuman abilities they may have.

Teleportation: Darkseid can teleport himself and other beings anywhere in the entire Universe even through other dimensions at a mere thought.

Size Alteration: Darkseid can easily manipulate his size, density and mass just by thinking, enabling him to become any size he wants.

Time Travel: Darkseid can move and transverse through time at ease.

Divine Empowerment: Darkseid could endow his lesser subjects with enormous powers. either granting them new abilities, increasing old ones they already possess or restoring lost powers to others at higher levels. He's done so with Mantis, Dr. Bedlam, Mary Marvel and his son; Kalibak.

Abilities

Genius-Level Intellect: Darkseid possesses intelligence that surpasses even the greatest minds in the universe. With this he is an excellent strategist, and has proven that not only sheer force of strength and power has aided him in battles.

Master Strategist: He is a master planner and strategist and his armies are nearly unbeatable under his leadership.

Intimidation: With his frightening visage and ruthless nature, Darkseid instills fear in friend and foe alike, something he no doubt enjoys.

Master Combatant: Darkseid is a highly-trained Apokoliptian warrior. He has held his own against powerful opponents, such as Superman. Despite his impressive fighting skills, however, Darkseid rarely resorts to personal combat to defeat his foes. Instead, he uses his servants to defeat his enemies for him. Apparently, Darkseid only fights opponents he deems worthy, such as Superman, Batman or Orion.

Strength level
Class 100+; Darkseid can lift 100 tons effortlessly.

Weaknesses

Radion: Darkseid and all of the New Gods are vulnerable to a substance called Radion. It source is unknown and its effects are toxic only in sustained amounts or after explosive exposure. The average New God can be slain by an application of Radion from a Radion blaster or bomb. More advanced beings such as Darkseid, protected by their power, armor and sheer toughness, have been known to take two hits and survive. Perhaps it requires the mysterious Element X to create it.

Obsessive Personality: His obsession with finding the Anti-Life Equation, obsession to get even with people who have gotten the better of him. Meta-humans or other beings of colossal strength are able to hold their own in a fight against him.

Willpower Concentration: Darkseid requires an immense amount of willpower to perform a majority of his powers and abilities, should his willpower be disrupted in anyway, he is unable to completely focus on his own abilities and powers.

So there you go, he is powerful. Within D&D he is a full-blown god, no argument. And just to be fair, Batman helped kill him.


Neither of those are necessarily highlevel threats. The European conquest of America, for example, was an alien invasion that was solidly lowlevel. And the Da Vinci Code was an intricate conspiracy that did not feature a single character above level 3.

They totally could be highlevel threats. In Whedon's Avengers movie, that invasion is solidly level 10+. The conspiracy in Deus Ex involves cyborgs that could be like level 8 or 9, maybe. But saying that Batman has fended them off does not make him a highlevel character.

Within the DCAU he has fended off three large-scale alien invasions as well as a couple domestic plays for world domination.

* He, with the Justice League, prevented the Imperium invasion, a race that wiped out everyone on Mars.
* He personally deactivated the nuclear device which was melting the polar ice-caps as perpetrated by Orm during the Atlantis usurpation.
* He has single-handily defeated Copperhead, Shade, Solomon Grundy, Star Sapphire, and Tsukuri in a fight.
* He, with the Justice League, prevented the Thanagarian invasion of Earth.
* He was able to psychologically turn the Ultra-Humanite, Cheetah, Copperhead, The Shade, Solomon Grundy, Star Sapphire and Lex Luthor against each other.
* Rescued the entire Justice League from Dr. Destiny's spell-based entrapments while fending off his telepathic attacks/abilities out of sheer will power
* He, with the Justice League & others, prevented the invasion of Earth by Darkseid.

So, I'd say he's handeled low to high-scale threats.


I am fairly unfamiliar with DCAU's version of Batman beyond the fact that it exists. Presumably Batman interacts with Superman and other highlevel characters in it. But when he does, does he survive via author fiat and such, or does he actually develop powers commensurate with the highlevel supers. I'm assuming some degree of power creep happens, but how noticeable is it?

It is a bit hard within the DCAU to exactly pin-point. Within Justice League & Justice League unlimited he is the smartest member of the team (and arguably one of the third smartest people on Earth, Luthor & Superman being the other two). He is almost always the person to figure out a trap/problem/situation and through martial arts/gadgets/knowledge holds his own against really powerful foes. This is a pretty good source of some niffty stuff he does throughout the series. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPHSEWul5rU)

Beyond everything you have the remember that he is the world's greatest detective. He solves the hardest problems known on the planet. Also in Grant Morrison's first storyline in JLA, Superman describes Batman as "the most dangerous man on Earth," able to defeat a team of superpowered aliens by himself in order to rescue his imprisoned teammates.


Okay, so these are all D&D characters very clearly inspired by their DC counterparts. I have no qualms with you claiming that. But do their actual DC portrayals have abilities that place them, in 3.x's level metric, as level 10+ adversaries? We've both agreed that Nolan's Batman is E6 material. But, say, Arkham City's Batman does not seem noticeably more hardcore than C-Bale.

I'd say some of his foes likely hit up in the high field. Someone like Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy or Ra's al Ghul are up there.

Also I'd say the Batman within Arkham Asylum/City far out-paces the Nolan Batman.


So far, this discussion has witnessed a noticeable lack of actual evidence presented by either side. So please show legitimate data that present Batman as a highlevel character. And then we'll have resolution.

No such data/evidence exists, at all. There is no legitimate comparative model between the two because one is a fictional representation & the other a rule-based role-playing game.


Rogues can totally be level 20 characters. As can Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Samurai, and Healers. But that does not make them highlevel characters.

High-leveled characters aren't high-leveled?

I think you need to define your terms.


The Joker can do a lot. But it seems like he generally requires a bit of preparation and downtime before he can assemble a spy network. Whereas a Bard can ping! up to a new level, learn scrying, and use it with zero prep-time. (Besides acquiring the material focus.) Similarly, I don't think the Joker has ever driven someone insane in less than 5 or 10 minutes. insanity has a casting time of 1 standard action. There is a huge difference in the possible utility of being able to drive someone insane in 10 minutes versus being able to do it in less than 6 seconds.

I'm going to be honest here and say when I make the Joker a Bard it is because, within the universe of a common D&D game (at least to me), he'd likely be a sadistic-vile Bard. It's a bit of artistic liberty but so is the endeavor of translating any character into D&D.


Actually, I'd consider Superman a decent example of a level 20 noncaster character. When you consider the completely rikokulous shenanigans a level 20 wizard can do, many of Superman's achievement do not seem all that absurd.

Ha-wha? Superman is like the glowing embodiment of a 20th-level caster.


Are you talking about this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y8WqbrhAs4)? Because that is fairly impressive. But it's not necessarily that much worse than a disintegrate spell. Which is an 11th level ability.

It's an ability similar to the disintegrate spell that according to Darkseid has never missed its target ever.


... So he's a 10th level cleric?

More like Artificer.


Clearly depends on the psychic in question. For example, Mr. Bennet in heroes can totally bluff Matt Parkman, and Mr. Bennet is totally a lowlevel character.

In Batman: Knightfall he escapes the psychic attack of Shondra Kinsolving (a low-level psychic healer) who's powers are amplified so intensely she's able to kill an entire town's population at once. When forced to eliminate Batman psychically his disguise is the mental/emotional identity that is killed instead of him.

Which roughly means his disguise was so good it fooled a high-level telepathic assault upon him.


Now this is really where a level system breaks down. I mean, Nick Fury and SHIELD build that giant helicarrier thingy, and I'm assuming that Nick Fury is not as individually hardcore as Tony Stark. As you mentioned in your earlier post, crafting often destroys a CR system. I'm willing to sort of concede, sort of handwave this point.

But Nick Fury didn't build everything that SHIELD uses.

Batman built his toys (except for a few interpretations like the Nolan films).


But cool. We are definitely reaching a consensus, and we seem to have established that highish level interpretations of Batman seem to exist.

Good.

[Hecuba]

That seems fairly hardcore. Definitely at least 9th level. My question, though, is this: What sort of opposing resources does Batman have to contend with to do this? That is, does each system have its own superhacker that Batman rips apart and defeats? Or is it more of a CIA thing, where he just overcomes a vast array of mook defenses to put in place his own systems?
Neither. Be builds it himself with no-one noticing, launches it into space with no-one noticing, and operates it for some time before people notice (when it becomes evil).


Are you talking about this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y8WqbrhAs4)? Because that is fairly impressive. But it's not necessarily that much worse than a disintegrate spell. Which is an 11th level ability.
It's actually important that the para-demon gets hit instead. To compare against disintegrate, the omega sanction does not require a roll to hit: it tracks the opponent unerringly. It can be deflected by a few items of godly-level craft (i.e. by Wonder Woman's bracers), but otherwise the only way to get it not to hit you is to force some thing else into it's path.




This also feels pretty neato. My only caveat is thus: Is the Wonderwoman portrayed in Kingdom Come presented as the sort of character who is only slightly less powerful than Superman? If so, I have no problem in conceding this one.
Than Kingdom Come Superman? That's unclear-- their feats of strength never get much of a direct comparison in that setting, IIRC.

More generally, Superman's power levels vary wildly: sometimes he needs aid to breathe in space. In other settings, he can blow out a sun like a candle.

More over, there are some examples of Batman taking multiple Superman level threats. There is, for an example, a Justice League arc (from the 90's IIRC) that deals with White Martian criminals mascaraing as salvation bringing superheros. A Martian (green or white) is generally about as powerful as a Kryptonian: Super strength, flight, density control, some of the most powerful psychic abilities in the universe, pressure vision, and near limitless shape-shifting [list continues for some time].

The rest of the Justice League struggles to take 1 or two a piece. Batman takes 4.


Clearly depends on the psychic in question. For example, Mr. Bennet in heroes can totally bluff Matt Parkman, and Mr. Bennet is totally a lowlevel character.
Martians and Saturnians. Batman has a demonstrated ability in many iterations to hide from an entirely block some of the most powerful psychics in the setting. Depending on who is writing him, he can sometimes simply be presumed to pass anything that gives a will save.

[turkishproverb]

Why are people assuming SUPERMAN is high level? He acts more "low level with massive racial bonuses and powers" than high level. Heck the fact his powers are based on species supports that heavily.

[Zonugal]

Why are people assuming SUPERMAN is high level? He acts more "low level with massive racial bonuses and powers" than high level. Heck the fact his powers are based on species supports that heavily.

He's extremely gifted in a wide variety of fields.

In one story he crafts miniature suns for example.

[GreyMantle]

Time for yet another wall of text.



Why are people assuming SUPERMAN is high level? He acts more "low level with massive racial bonuses and powers" than high level. Heck the fact his powers are based on species supports that heavily.

I know that I, at least, have been using CR and level with mild interchangability. In truth they're related but not identical terms. You could make the argument that Superman is a unique creature with no progression. However, he seems to have some sort of progression (at the very least you could say Superboy -> Superman). Most importantly, I'd say we're considering him to be a highlevel character because we want to make D&D characters that start out small and grow into Superman.

[Zonugal spews information about Darkseid]

Okay, he seems to be pretty hardcore. Superman level, maybe?



* He, with the Justice League, prevented the Imperium invasion, a race that wiped out everyone on Mars.


This sounds fairly impressive.



* He personally deactivated the nuclear device which was melting the polar ice-caps as perpetrated by Orm during the Atlantis usurpation.


Unless this is a nuclear device made out of arbitrarium, I don't see why this is necessarily a highlevel task.



* He has single-handily defeated Copperhead, Shade, Solomon Grundy, Star Sapphire, and Tsukuri in a fight.


Of those, I only know who Solomon Grundy is. But Sol seems basically like Hulk-lite. I don't know if I would put him about CR 10, but wha'evz.



* He, with the Justice League, prevented the Thanagarian invasion of Earth.


As with the Imperium, I don't know what that proper noun means, but the fact that you state the invasion to be Earth-spanning implies a fair degree of high-levelery.



* He was able to psychologically turn the Ultra-Humanite, Cheetah, Copperhead, The Shade, Solomon Grundy, Star Sapphire and Lex Luthor against each other.
* Rescued the entire Justice League from Dr. Destiny's spell-based entrapments while fending off his telepathic attacks/abilities out of sheer will power
* He, with the Justice League & others, prevented the invasion of Earth by Darkseid.


Once again, we're getting a lot of proper nouns that I don't recognize. But I'm willing to imagine that many of these are highlevel threats.




No such data/evidence exists, at all. There is no legitimate comparative model between the two because one is a fictional representation & the other a rule-based role-playing game.


Clearly, but the examples you've presented seem to be doing a decent job of providing data.



High-leveled characters aren't high-leveled?

I think you need to define your terms.


Yes, I do. Generally, when I'm saying "highlevel," I mean "can participate in a wide variety of highlevel challenges without being an active detriment to the rest of the team." So a level 20 Barbarian or Expert is at a high level, but still fails to be a highlevel character in the sense that a Rogue or Wizard is. I'll try to be more clear.



Ha-wha? Superman is like the glowing embodiment of a 20th-level caster.


Superman seems to rely on a few schticks that are individually very powerful. For any given writer, he does not have a wide range of abilities to draw upon. To me, that suggests noncaster. He clearly has "magical" powers, but magical powers are more or less necessary if you're going to be a viable 20th level character.



It's an ability similar to the disintegrate spell that according to Darkseid has never missed its target ever.


1) If Darkseid is a 15th or 20th level character, then the chances of him missing with any given ranged touch attack seem fairly slim. Also: Who else has he actually killed with his blast thingy? Because if he's primarily targeted characters not especially known for their dodge-i-ness, then Batman's dodging becomes slightly less omgwtfbbq awesome.




Now switching to Hecuba.



Neither. He builds it himself with no-one noticing, launches it into space with no-one noticing, and operates it for some time before people notice (when it becomes evil).


I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant was: How well guarded are the world's computer systems in the DC Universe? Does Brother Eye just overwhelm the defenses of a bunch of mook programmers, or does it actually defeat skilled, elaborate hackers?





Okay, I clearly have no choice but to admit that Justice League Batman is totally a highlevel character. Level 15+, by all means. That being said, I still don't see Gotham-only Batman being more than like level 10 or something.

I also don't know if Zonugal's [Human Rogue 1/Monk 1/Rogue 4/Monk 1/Urban Ranger 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Artificer 5/Rogue 5] proposed Batman build seems to fit the JLA Batman, but I wonder if that is more a problem with 3.x's martial classes than anything else.

So congratulations, y'all. You have won an argument, on the Internet.

[turkishproverb]

Time for yet another wall of text.




I know that I, at least, have been using CR and level with mild interchangability. In truth they're related but not identical terms. You could make the argument that Superman is a unique creature with no progression. However, he seems to have some sort of progression (at the very least you could say Superboy -> Superman). Most importantly, I'd say we're considering him to be a highlevel character because we want to make D&D characters that start out small and grow into Superman.

I never said no progression, just fairly little, and most of that even relates to stuff he has.

In most continuities, He's more like a LA+10 or so with maybe 3 levels in a character class



Okay, he seems to be pretty hardcore. Superman level, maybe?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4351yXbyz1rnvppd.gif


Superman's a mild annoyance by Darkseid's standards. And yet batman can get Darkseid to back down.



Of those, I only know who Solomon Grundy is. But Sol seems basically like Hulk-lite. I don't know if I would put him about CR 10, but wha'evz.

Grundy would be at LEAST CR 12. He's next-to unkillable, has no particular weaknesses outside an alien mystic metal, etc...

And that's assuming we're talking about the weaker versions.

Shade is an almost elemental level power as well, equivilant to a fairly high level caster in many ways.


Star Sapphire is a green-lantern level threat.

Copperhead lowest on the lsit of people bat's was facing in that fight, with some intersting reptile themed abilities.

TsuKuri is a world class martial artist, really top of the hill pseudo superhuman stuff. Think TOB.



As with the Imperium, I don't know what that proper noun means, but the fact that you state the invasion to be Earth-spanning implies a fair degree of high-levelery.

Think of a species of mostly- D&D barbarians with heavy magical-equiptment focus, excellent tacticians, and spies. And full flight capabilities.


Once again, we're getting a lot of proper nouns that I don't recognize. But I'm willing to imagine that many of these are highlevel threats.

most of them are.

Lex luthor is a man superman knows is dangerous, whom by this poitn had a powered battlesuit equivilant to the stuff an artificer might pull in dingeons and dragons, whom was known for MAKING SUPERVILLAINS.

Ultrahumanite was an ultra-intelligent super-gorilla bodied guy with high level tech ability.
Doctor destiny is powered by a freaking Eldriditch horror of sorts.
Darkseid's ARMY is usually only kept at bay by a planet filled with physical Gods. Darkseid himself sees this as a minor annoyance, and not because he's over-confident.

I'd say look up the rest.


Yes, I do. Generally, when I'm saying "highlevel," I mean "can participate in a wide variety of highlevel challenges without being an active detriment to the rest of the team." So a level 20 Barbarian or Expert is at a high level, but still fails to be a highlevel character in the sense that a Rogue or Wizard is. I'll try to be more clear.

If we're playing raw here, I can take most of what you'd throw at a high level anything with a freaking monk. Fighter, maybe. Quite possibly a barbarian and expert, simply because of the holes their abilities leave.


1) If Darkseid is a 15th or 20th level character, then the chances of him missing with any given ranged touch attack seem fairly slim. Also: Who else has he actually killed with his blast thingy? Because if he's primarily targeted characters not especially known for their dodge-i-ness, then Batman's dodging becomes slightly less omgwtfbbq awesome.


No, the OMega beams are canonically UNABLE to miss their target normally.

Also, which set of eye-blasts? The ones that exist soulley to cause pain, to insta kill things up to the level of some gods, or to make someone suffer repeated lifetimes, each worse than the last?

In any event, they've been seen bulls-eying SUPER-SPEEDSTERS. I'm not sure you get much more dodgy than that.


And cannonically, many of them are literally undodgable. Including, at least base dupon appearance, the ones batman dodged.



I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant was: How well guarded are the world's computer systems in the DC Universe? Does Brother Eye just overwhelm the defenses of a bunch of mook programmers, or does it actually defeat skilled, elaborate hackers?

It defeats hackers several times, and generally world comps are well guarded even if beatet enough. People are designing firewalls etc. to keep out sentient computer programs like braniac and Cyborg Superman.

[Hecuba]

[Zonugal spews information about Darkseid]

Okay, he seems to be pretty hardcore. Superman level, maybe?

In most iterations of the two, the best Superman can manage is to keep him busy.

Darkseid is literally, a deity. He is the God of Evil. Capital G, capital E.


I. Am. The. New. God. All is one in Darkseid. This mighty body is my church. When I command your surrender, I speak with three billion voices. When I make a fist to crush your resistance. It is with three billion hands. When I stare into your eyes and shatter your dreams. And break your heart. It is with six billion eyes! Nothing like Darkseid has ever come among you: Nothing will again. I will take you to a hell without exit or end. And there I will murder your souls! And make you crawl and beg! And die! Die! Die for Darkseid!

(I may hate Morrison's stories, but dang can the man write a good evil rant)


Now switching to Hecuba.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant was: How well guarded are the world's computer systems in the DC Universe? Does Brother Eye just overwhelm the defenses of a bunch of mook programmers, or does it actually defeat skilled, elaborate hackers?

There are people in the DCU whose "superpower" is that they are very good hackers: Oracle & the Calculator top the list but there are others. They had no idea it had happened until Brother Eye/Brother I started turning people into blue android mind-slaves.

[Zonugal]

Unless this is a nuclear device made out of arbitrarium, I don't see why this is necessarily a highlevel task.

We just have to translate it into the realm of D&D in which it would likely be the most difficult magical security/trap and thus be very hard to deactivate.


Yes, I do. Generally, when I'm saying "highlevel," I mean "can participate in a wide variety of highlevel challenges without being an active detriment to the rest of the team." So a level 20 Barbarian or Expert is at a high level, but still fails to be a highlevel character in the sense that a Rogue or Wizard is. I'll try to be more clear.

I can understand where you are coming from. I just think, through my experiences watching the Justice League & other superhero teams, they tend to divide the obstacles as correlating to the problem at hand. So while Superman is fighting a giant robot, Batman is dismantling a highly-complex bomb. Both high-level problems but in two different ways.


Superman seems to rely on a few schticks that are individually very powerful. For any given writer, he does not have a wide range of abilities to draw upon. To me, that suggests noncaster. He clearly has "magical" powers, but magical powers are more or less necessary if you're going to be a viable 20th level character.


In most continuities, He's more like a LA+10 or so with maybe 3 levels in a character class

I would disagree in that throughout stories Superman has been shown to be an excellent combatant (even without his powers) and displays knowledge, skill & powers that are in tune with a high-level caster. Beyond his racial powers (which we could easily say are spells/psionic powers for simplicity's sake) he has used Kryptonian technology to construct great items & to maintain the Fortress of Solitude. In All-Star Superman he makes a liquified form of his Kryptonian DNA which grants Lois Lane all his superpowers for 24 hours. He also crafts miniature suns to feed a monster called the Sun-Eater that well, eats suns... In the same story he creates a parallel universe.

I'd honestly put him within epic levels with a couple divine ranks.


1) If Darkseid is a 15th or 20th level character, then the chances of him missing with any given ranged touch attack seem fairly slim.

He isn't, he's epic. In D&D he would have divine ranks (as would Superman most likely).


Okay, I clearly have no choice but to admit that Justice League Batman is totally a highlevel character. Level 15+, by all means. That being said, I still don't see Gotham-only Batman being more than like level 10 or something.

I'd concede that point. Within just the scope of Gotham he is significantly lower-level which makes his defeat of his foes impressive as he tends to do so with out-side-the-box thinking. But even with all this he's still "the world's greatest detective," so I would put him anywhere from level 10-13 maybe (but only for his time in Gotham before the scenarios of the Justice League).


So congratulations, y'all. You have won an argument, on the Internet.

http://evansheline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/victory-baby-2.jpg

[Hecuba]

I'd honestly put him within epic levels with a couple divine ranks.

While I would certainly peg most of the higher level versions of Superman as Epic, I wouldn't put divine rank on any but a few edge incarnations.

There are simply a lot of things that are implied by Divine Rank that Supes doesn't have:

Immunity to cold, electricity, acid (even if from a higher ranked source): it's pretty hard to electrocute Superman to any notable degree, but it's been done.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting affects.
Remote Sensing of Worshipers, holy sites, etc
Portfolio Sense
etc


This isn't to say that most versions aren't arguably epic enough to go head-to-head with someone who does have those (at least in the absence of some of the more OP SDAs), but more that there is little case for assigning Divine Rank to him as it relates to thing actual effects of divine rank.

There are some edge cases where the power level is advanced so far and/or he's presented with quasi-divine status in certain iterations: the DC 1,000,000 version and the version where he's considered to be the mortal incarnation of Rao come to mind. But these would seem to be edge cases to me.

Also, that time he blew out a sun like a candle. Because, really, Alter Reality seems like a prerequisite for that.


I'd concede that point. Within just the scope of Gotham he is significantly lower-level which makes his defeat of his foes impressive as he tends to do so with out-side-the-box thinking. But even with all this he's still "the world's greatest detective," so I would put him anywhere from level 10-13 maybe (but only for his time in Gotham before the scenarios of the Justice League).
A good way to measure this would likely be to consider his opponents in Gotham: many of them (Clayface, Poison Ivy, Mr Freeze) have ability sets that seem like they would be easier to map to 3.5 than his own.

From there, he should be a couple levels above them at least, since he tends to do better than 50/50.

[Zonugal]

A good way to measure this would likely be to consider his opponents in Gotham: many of them (Clayface, Poison Ivy, Mr Freeze) have ability sets that seem like they would be easier to map to 3.5 than his own.

From there, he should be a couple levels above them at least, since he tends to do better than 50/50.

I mean I found it pretty easy to build Batman in E6.

It just takes around 340 feats to accomplish.

[ExemplarofAvg]

So, now that I've been entertained through the Batman through the Levels/Ages discussion. Is my character build, at least an acceptable representation of Jason Todd as the Red Hood? For those of us not familiar with the comics here's a sample of combat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLLfhO0zXGI) abilities (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3VkJzsCVg&feature=related). And some non (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcoLFnVba2I) combat abilities.

Do you guys believe that as my character is now, that he can perform at this level of skill?

[wayfare]

So, now that I've been entertained through the Batman through the Levels/Ages discussion. Is my character build, at least an acceptable representation of Jason Todd as the Red Hood? For those of us not familiar with the comics here's a sample of combat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLLfhO0zXGI) abilities (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os3VkJzsCVg&feature=related). And some non (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcoLFnVba2I) combat abilities.

Do you guys believe that as my character is now, that he can perform at this level of skill?

I think you got the skills right, but Red Hood seems more like a gunslinger/rogue (Nimble would help some with the build).

His AC needs to be way higher -- at least 5 points higher.

[ExemplarofAvg]

I think you got the skills right, but Red Hood seems more like a gunslinger/rogue (Nimble would help some with the build).

His AC needs to be way higher -- at least 5 points higher.

Nimble won't scale enough for what I'd like, and yeah, I know, I haven't spent any gold yet, so it'll go to AC pump.

[Tanuki Tales]

Eh, Superman is either massively high level or massively (and properly) CRed.

Prior to the Flashpoint Reboot, Superman as a whole was more powerful than any statted d20 character outside of possible Pun Pun.

Same goes for Darkseid or any other upper end comic character.

Really, once you get to Mid-Herald, you can't stat them up since the game doesn't do power that high.

Just my 2 copper.

Edit:

Also, you can't really use Solomon Grundy as evidence since his power scale varies to a massive degree. He can be as weak that Batman handily beats him down with little effort or so powerful he's tanking a JLA roster.