Knife nut build

[Soranar]

Trying to optimize daggers as much as possible, this is what I have so far

Race: human
alignment: any
templates: none so far

Alternate class features

hit and run tactics (from DoTU, lose heavy armor proficiency and tower shield proficiency for DEX to damage vs flat-footed opponents)
sneak attack fighter (from UA, lose bonus feats for rogue's sneak attack progression)
zhentarim fighter (web, bonus abilities and skill access for roleplay requirements)

2 flaws

1 Fighter quick draw, weapon focus: dagger, point blank shot, rapid shot 1d6 sneak
2 Fighter
3 Human Paragon far shot skill trick: hidden blade, add Iaijutsu focus to class skills
4 Fighter 2d6 sneak
5 Fighter
6 Human Paragon open featskill trick: sudden draw, bonus feat weapon specialization: dagger
7 Invisible Blade 3d6 sneak
8 Invisible Blade
9 Invisible Blade ranged weapon mastery: slashing 4d6 sneak
10 Invisible Blade
11 Invisible Blade 5d6 sneak
12 Fighter open feat6d6 sneak

Combat : Obviously (like any sneak attack build) I intend to invest in hide and move silently (during human paragon and invisible blade levels) to get a sneak attack off in the surprise round (it's also a DEX heavy build so simply winning Initiative could do it too) but once that initial round is gone I still have a few tricks

Activate hidden blade, spend a move action to draw a concealed dagger, treat opponent as flat-footed

1rst dagger thrown

Opponent flat footed so you get

1d4 (base) + STR + DEX (hit and run tactics)+ sneak attack damage + Iaijutsu focus damage+ 4 (weapon specialization damage)

resume the rest of your iteratives

once you reach Level 11, feinting is a free action (though only once per round due to the errata)

so you can follow the first throw with a feint, treat your opponent as flat-footed, and have the same results as before

Sudden draw also lets you attack opponents your threaten with a concealed weapon (just use armor spikes to threaten), resulting in yet another sneak attack

STATS in order of importance DEX, STR, CHA, CON, INT, WIS

My problem is deciding what to do at higher levels.

1rst option: stick to fighter levels to keep gaining full BAB , sneak attack and take the greater weapon focus + greater weapon specialization feats (doesn't sound that interesting, 2 feats for +1 to hit , +2 to damage)

it would also lead to the higher level zhentarim fighter abilities

2nd option: find another base or prestige class to invest in (assuming human as human paragon's Iaijutsu focus is an invaluable part of the build)

Feel free to suggest other combos I could have overlooked. I'm also considering taking the last level of human paragon for +2 to DEX and , if you can think of any, feel free to suggest templates that would go well with this.

[Zilzmaer]

Dark template (+1 LA, Tome of Magic) would work well.

If you want to throw the daggers, Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) is good.

Factotum (base class, Dungeonscape) has every skill as a class skill, removing the need for Human Paragon, and gives you 8+ skill points per level.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Alternate Idea
Too bad you're not doing Pathfinder as there's a rogue archetype just for you (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master).

Concern
Iirc the Sneak Attack Fighter "Thug" also required you lower your armor to light as it also affected your skills(Increase) and Hp(Decrease). Which makes the DotU ACF redundant as you can't give up an ability twice. But I could remember incorrectly too.

Critique.
Iaijutsu Focus has always been cheddar to me. Intimidate Lockdown is alright, but that seems to be more of focus of the build than a method to utilize your daggers. Max Bluff if you're planning on Feinting. Find a more reliable way to Feint, DM's learn fast and Sense Motive will always be taken after the first while. Last note on Iaijutsu focus "This damage is not cumulative with sneak attack damage or similar abilities if your character has them." Strikes me as a "does not stack" clause. So Iaijutsu or Sneak Attack, but not both,

Suggestions
I think Master Thrower and Invisible Blade would be the best choices for a knife wielder, especially since they allow each part of the dagger to be useful mixing a nice blend of close and mid-range abilities. Maybe check out the Machine Gun Assassin build floating somewhere on the internet, I believe something similar can be pulled off with daggers (maybe not quite at the level they give, but still enough) Rogue, I can't help but think that Rogue would make this build better, only losing some feats.

I think that's it.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Yeah, that's it.

[Soranar]

Dark template (+1 LA, Tome of Magic) would work well.

If you want to throw the daggers, Master Thrower (Complete Warrior) is good.

Factotum (base class, Dungeonscape) has every skill as a class skill, removing the need for Human Paragon, and gives you 8+ skill points per level.

Dark template is definitely not off the table, it'll depend on my DM (whether or not LA can be bought off or not)

Master Thrower's abilities don't work with STR and don't progress sneak attack but, again, I'll think about it. My main beef with that class is that it gives you quick draw, which means I'd need to wait till level 6 to get hidden blade.

Finally, Factotum is a great class but, unlike human paragon, it doesn't add to your class skill list forever (which is why dipping human paragon is so good).

It's also only x6 skillpoints per level.

thanks for the input

[Urpriest]

And why does this build seem to lack Surprising Riposte (Drow of the Underdark)?

[Soranar]

Alternate Idea
Too bad you're not doing Pathfinder as there's a rogue archetype just for you (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/knife-master).

Concern
Iirc the Sneak Attack Fighter "Thug" also required you lower your armor to light as it also affected your skills(Increase) and Hp(Decrease). Which makes the DotU ACF redundant as you can't give up an ability twice. But I could remember incorrectly too.

Critique.
Iaijutsu Focus has always been cheddar to me. Intimidate Lockdown is alright, but that seems to be more of focus of the build than a method to utilize your daggers. Max Bluff if you're planning on Feinting. Find a more reliable way to Feint, DM's learn fast and Sense Motive will always be taken after the first while. Last note on Iaijutsu focus "This damage is not cumulative with sneak attack damage or similar abilities if your character has them." Strikes me as a "does not stack" clause. So Iaijutsu or Sneak Attack, but not both,

Suggestions
I think Master Thrower and Invisible Blade would be the best choices for a knife wielder, especially since they allow each part of the dagger to be useful mixing a nice blend of close and mid-range abilities. Maybe check out the Machine Gun Assassin build floating somewhere on the internet, I believe something similar can be pulled off with daggers (maybe not quite at the level they give, but still enough) Rogue, I can't help but think that Rogue would make this build better, only losing some feats.

I think that's it.

Thug and sneak attack fighter are 2 different alternate class features. You can combine them but you don't have to, since DEX to damage is that interesting I decided no to go the thug route.

I reread the text to be sure, Iaijutsu focus specifies that it does stack with sneak attack, where are you getting your text? Did I miss an errata?

Rogue would be an ok choice at best, you lose HP, BAB and the ability to take ranged weapon mastery (which increases your range by 20ft on top of adding 2 damage to every throw). Rogues do get a bucketload of skillpoints though but I like not freaking out whenever my character gets into melee.

[Invader]

Whisper knife is nice as well.

Here's the dagger thrower build I came up with. It relies more on multiple attacks than sneak damage but it still might give you some ideas.

Strong Heart Halfling Lvl 7 -- Fighter 2, Rogue 2, Swashbuckler 1, Whisperknife 1, Master Thrower 1
Feats

Str 10
Dex 21
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 11

Feats:
1st Point Blank Shot, Two Weapon fighting, Far Shot
2nd Precise Sot
3rd Weapon Focus Dagger
4th Evasion
5th Weapon Finesse
6th Dead Eye
7th Quick Draw

BAB Attacks per round 10/10/10/10/10/10/5/5
1st +1 Mainhand
2nd +2 Palm Throw
3rd +2 Rapid Shot
4th +3 Rapid Shot Palm Throw
5th +4 Off Hand
6th +5 Off Hand Palm Throw
7th +6/+1


Equipment Throwing dagger (small) 1d3+5 range 40ft. crit x2 Type S/P

[Soranar]

And why does this build seem to lack Surprising Riposte (Drow of the Underdark)?

Because I just plain forgot that thing existed. Now that could grant me flat-footed damage on every throw, definitely worth the feats. I'll be back with a new build shortly

[docnessuno]

I think you can get a better mileage out of master thrower and bloodstorm blade, setting aside the sneak attack route

1 Warblade - Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial study, Martial stance
2 Fighter - Precise Shot
3 Fighter - Point Blank Shot - Shadow hand
4 Fighter
5 Fighter - Weapon focus - [Cross class Sleight of hand 4 ranks]
6 Master thrower - Palm throw - Quick draw (bonus) - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Master thrower
8 Master thrower - Two with one blow
9 Master thrower - Weapon finesse
10 Master thrower - Weak spot
11 Factotum [Balance 8 ranks, Iaijutsu focus]
12 Bloodstorm blade - Throw anything (bonus), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13 Bloodstorm blade
14 Bloodstorm blade - Power attack
15 Bloodstorm blade - Rapid shot
16+ Open

Highlights:
SAD (Dex to hit and damage)
Hits touch AC
Power attacks with thrown weapons
Can throw two weapons with each attack roll
Can take -4 to hit to hit two adjacent enemies with each attack
Weapons thrown istantly return back, you can catch them as free action

[Soranar]

you can't power attack with light weapons

[docnessuno]

You can with Aptitude weapons afaik.

[Soranar]

The Knife Nut 2.0


Race: Human
Alignment: any
Templates : none (though I may buy an umbral collar to gain the dark template momentarily)

STATS (32 pts)

STR 8 (opted to dump it)
DEX 18 (main stat)
CON 12 (with d10 hitpoints for most levels this should be enough)
INT 14 (for combat expertise and skill requirements)
WIS 8
CHA 14 (for bluff checks)

alternate class features

hit and run tactics (DoTU, lose hvy armor , tower shields, for DEX to damage vs flat-footed opponents)
sneak attack fighter (UA, lose bonus feats for sneak attack progression)
zhentarim fighter (web, add bluff to your skill list )

2 flaws

1 Fighter Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Surprising Riposte, Two Weapon Fighting1d6
2 Fighter
3 Fighter Point blank shot 2d6
4 Human Paragon add Iaijutsu focus to skill list
5 Fighter
6 Fighter Far shot 3d6
7 Human Paragon bonus feat: Precise Shot
8 Human Paragon DEX +2
9 Swordsage weapon focus: dagger, Weapon specialization: dagger 5d6 (assassin's stance)
10 Master Thrower Quick Draw, Trip Shot
11 Invisible Blade 6d6
12 Invisible Blade Improved Precise Shot
13 Invisible Blade 7d6
14 Invisible Blade
15 Invisible Blade Ranged Weapon Mastery: slashing 8d6
16 Master Thrower
17 Master Thrower Palm Throw
18 Master Thrower Improved TWF
19 Master Thrower Weak Spot
20 still open, not sure what to put here

Fighting style

from 1-9

You rely on feint and sneaking to trigger sneak attacks. Since you don't have place for weapon finesse, use a pair of feycraft daggers to get your DEX to hit. Hit and Run already gives you your DEX to damage vs flat-footed opponents.

Maxed skills: bluff, Iaijutsu Focus, hide, move silently,
utility skill : sleight of hand for PrC qualifications (and eventually for skill tricks)

10 + You can start to throw your daggers and use the hidden blade, sudden blade skill tricks to trigger Iaijutsu damage. You can also do trip shots to hinder dangerous opponents.

15+ feinting is a free action which makes every attack you make a sneak attack (through surprising riposte, assuming the bluff checks wins)

19+ attacks are touch attacks, again I'm not sure if this is even worth it (considering how late in the game it would apply, may have to put that a lot earlier or drop it altogether for more sneak attack damage)


Note: Not certain how palm throw and weapon specialization stack, if I remember right specialization is not precision damage thus it increases every projectile in a volley (effectively doubling it's usefulness with palm throw).

[White_Drake]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dont seem to have a means to apply your feinting to ranged attacks?

[docnessuno]

Also:
- Why are you delaying Master thrower 5 to level 19? hitting touch AC is probably the best feature you get in the whole build.
- Why i don't see Shadow hand in the talents? Is Dex to damage always on so bad for you?
- As already noted you cannot combine hit and run tactics and Thug (or, as you call it, sneak attack fighter). You are giving up heavy armor and tower shield proficiency twice.
- By taking your lvl3 Zhentarim fighter substitution level you don't get your lvl3 Thug sneak attack dice
- Hit and run tactics is not abaiable to humans:
This chapter explores the options available to drow characters, presenting new uses for skills, new feats, alternative class features, and new spells and invocations.

In exchange for a fi ghter’s access to heavy armor, a drow fighter gains strong fi rst-strike capability.

[candycorn]

Other options: Get a wand of grease, and UMD it. Most balancing creatures are flat footed.

[Averis Vol]

i'd try to fit in a str of 13 and pick up power & brutal throw, power attack jsut seems like a nice layer to add on. but thats all personal preference, my thrower builds are generally str based.

[togapika]

I still don't understand how you managed 4 feats at first level, when you don't have any flaws listed...

[GnomeGninjas]

- As already noted you cannot combine hit and run tactics and Thug (or, as you call it, sneak attack fighter). You are giving up heavy armor and tower shield proficiency twice.
-


Class Skills

Add the following skills to the fighter's class skill list: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand. The thug gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).
Class Features

The thug has all the standard fighter class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Thugs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.
Bonus Feats

A thug doesn't gain the normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level. Also, add Urban Tracking to the list of fighter bonus feats available to the thug.

Fighter

Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug variant.
Gain

Sneak attack (as rogue).
Lose

Bonus feats.
They are two different varients that are often combined because if you take SA fighter you aren't getting your first level bonus feat anyways and you probably want a bit of stealth so you won't be wearing heavy armor anyways.

[White_Drake]

Thug and Sneak attack Fighter can stack, but you can't stack that with hit and run tactics :smallannoyed: (I like light fighters.)

[Soranar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dont seem to have a means to apply your feinting to ranged attacks?

Yeah that's one of the problems of this build, thus me delaying the emphasis on thrown weapons since melee tends to be more effective. I can still apply Iaijutsu focus on every melee attack by drawing a weapon and dropping it each time (which is definitely clunkier than using quickrazors).

Basically fighting starts (hopefully) with the surprise round, during which I throw, and then I melee whatever comes running at me (assuming there is such a thing).


Also:
- Why are you delaying Master thrower 5 to level 19? hitting touch AC is probably the best feature you get in the whole build.
- Why i don't see Shadow hand in the talents? Is Dex to damage always on so bad for you?
- As already noted you cannot combine hit and run tactics and Thug (or, as you call it, sneak attack fighter). You are giving up heavy armor and tower shield proficiency twice.
- By taking your lvl3 Zhentarim fighter substitution level you don't get your lvl3 Thug sneak attack dice
- Hit and run tactics is not abaiable to humans:

As I answered whitedrake, while ranged attacking is nice it is not always feasible or even useful. Thus me preferring to delay relying on it too much.

You can't get the same bonus to something twice unless it's specified otherwise. Thus I can't get DEX to damage from hit and run tactics + DEX to damage from shadowblade. Hit and run tactics doesn't always work but it works in melee and ranged and doesn't cost me anything so I prefer that one.

As I've mentioned before (and as other people mentioned) thug does not = sneak attack fighter. They are 2 different ACF that you can combine, not that you have to combine.

I thought Zhentarim didn't give you anything? I'll have to look into that.



i'd try to fit in a str of 13 and pick up power & brutal throw, power attack jsut seems like a nice layer to add on. but thats all personal preference, my thrower builds are generally str based.

I'd consider a power throw build for a master thrower focused build. Maybe a skiprock champion halfling that uses touch attacks. In this build I'm just feat starved to consider it.



I still don't understand how you managed 4 feats at first level, when you don't have any flaws listed...

I do have flaws listed (2 flaws) but I haven't bothered to pick them yet since, typically, my DM picks them.

[Curmudgeon]

You can't get the same bonus to something twice unless it's specified otherwise. Thus I can't get DEX to damage from hit and run tactics + DEX to damage from shadowblade.
I think you're confused. You can't get a bonus from the same source twice, but "DEX" isn't a source. A named class feature like sneak attack is a source. Here's a quote from the DMG with an example. From page 180:
Sneak Attack

This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). If an assassin gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses on damage stack. Rogue sneak attack and Assassin sneak attack are damage bonuses from instances of the same source (the same named class feature) and thus normally wouldn't stack. That last sentence overrides the usual stacking limitation.

[Soranar]

I think you're confused. You can't get a bonus from the same source twice, but "DEX" isn't a source. A named class feature like sneak attack is a source. Here's a quote from the DMG with an example. From page 180: Rogue sneak attack and Assassin sneak attack are damage bonuses from instances of the same source (the same named class feature) and thus normally wouldn't stack. That last sentence overrides the usual stacking limitation.

I guess I could just dump ranged fighting altogether and rely on melee, master thrower has annoying prerequisites anyway. But that would mean losing Iaijutsu Focus and the whole feel of the build would change dramatically, I'll consider it.

[Metahuman1]

Craven would be a good feat for a character like this.


And since fighting with lots of weapons is gonna hurt you on keeping them magicked up to par for your level, I'd just ask your DM if in order to help balance that out he'd allow you to apply shadow blade to your melee and ranged attacks with just the daggers, and then drop the Drow of the Underdark thing. I'd also think about asking if you can apply the heavy weapon property (It's extra ordinary so it shouldn't be too much of a money tax.) to the daggers you buy, and get Shadow Blade+Weapons Finesse +Power Attack and then picking up four levels of blood storm blade to get the throw it and it comes back trick worked in and a bit more damage from power attack. Or barring that if the DM will just tweak getting into blood storm blade for you to make it more dex base friendly so that you can get in far enough to get your daggers to come back.

[White_Drake]

If you can make room for it, Bloodstorm Blade 2 would allow you to choose whether to make a thrown weapon count as a melee or ranged attack (and on melee thrown weapons you could feint).

[Zombulian]

I'm being lazy right now so I didn't read through All the responses, but Daggerspell Mage and Daggerspell Shaper are kinda cool too. Not sure if anyone else recommended those.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why sneak attack fighter when you can get most of the goodies for Hit and Run and other stuff by Fighter 2, grab 2 feats, bail, multiclass into rogue (for hte love of gods, make rogue your 1st level, of course...skill points!), do that for a while, then go on to the prestige classes and swordsage dip and whatever else?

The feats are more valuable than the SA dice. Craven alone will be giving up to +20, that's the equivalent of almost 6d6 right there. Having dex to damage 2 or 3 times will also likely make up a huge chunk of damage. You can afford to let the SA dice fall behind a bit.