OOTS #854 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Hell yeah!

[Dumbledore lives]

Fantastic, a reasonable discussion is such a novel thing nowadays.

[Lycar]

It would seem that Tarquin likes/respects Malak enough to take his feelings into account.

But then again, with a guy like Tarquin you have to wonder how much of this is really respect and how much is just playing along not to lose a useful ally/tool. :smallconfused:

[Argok]

It would be awesome if in the book this is in. they had a bonus 2 or 3 panels about that Rajah. anything about their old group really.

[Thokk_Smash]

And this is why Tarquin is so dangerous: he's calm, rational, and knows when to admit his mistakes, or at least soothe his friend's anger. Good update, though I'm still anxious to see V back (which probably won't be for awhile).

Edit: Also, what Argok said; Tarquin has to have had as many whacky adventures as the OOTS, if not more, and what better place to show them than the books?

[Timeless Error]

Wow, I must say I'm very impressed with the way Malack and Tarquin resolved their differences. A true friendship! More proof that evildoers can be reasonable people just like the good guys.

[Lord Raziere]

Ah, these guys are evil but reasonable…. a dangerous combination indeed….:smalleek:

[CoffeeIncluded]

So how much of what Tarquin said is true?

[ThePhantom]

Well, this make sense. No way that Tarquin could have gotten this far without being able to get along with his team.

[Magnera]

I would love to see how the Rajah happened.

[Gift Jeraff]

Wow, 35 years of fighting? That makes Tarquin like 50+. He looks better for his age than I thought.

And I really like Qarr's "Hey, I'm back" line for some reason. :smalltongue:

[Caivs]

I love the exchange between the two of them, great writing there Giant. Malack does have some cajones, talking to Tarquin like that. Now we just have to wonder if Tarquin' apologies are sincere or just pragmatism...

And thus it is confirmed Tarquin wasn't fighting with all his skills...

[Crisis21]

I wonder who else read the exchange between Malack and Tarquin and immediately thought of the Emotional Responses article (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/XbsQgS9YYu9g3HZBAGE.html) featured on this sight?

[ti'esar]

Ah, you gotta love when fictional characters behave like reasonable adults. Tarquin (and Malack, to a lesser extent) just went up quite a few points in my esteem.

Also, this more or less confirms that they are trying to "pull a Belloq" and meant that stuff about just attacking to prod the Order into motion. Good to know.

Incidentally, that "Thog" outfit does not look good on Tarquin without his mask and/or helmet.

[Gusion]

Nale must be so confused

[The Extinguisher]

I'm positive that this is sincere, or at least sincere enough that it doesn't matter. Besides, it's much easier long term to actually befriend you're allies, than just pretend you are.

[Caivs]

Incidentally, that "Thog" outfit does not look good on Tarquin without his mask and/or helmet.

Heh, I thought it looked great on him. Gives a whole different personality than the red one (And the green one meh, didn't look good at all). The purple armor gives him some knight look, I don't know how to explain it. Like a mix of assassin and soldier.

[Lycan 01]

I honestly can't tell if Tarquin's just showing off his poker face, or if he genuinely feels apologetic to his friend. I wouldn't be surprised if he's just using Malak, but at the same time, he may just as easily value him as a real friend and legitimately feel bad for his actions.


I blame my confusion on the Giant's expertise at making awesome and complex characters. :smalltongue:

[Zea mays]

35 years?
But aren't Nale and Elan in their very early twenties? :smallconfused:

So presumably Malak was already working with Tarquin before he married the boys' mother. Long time.

[Forikroder]

35 years?
But aren't Nale and Elan in their very early twenties? :smallconfused:

So presumably Malak was already working with Tarquin before he married the boys' mother. Long time.

we already knew that

absolutely beautiful strip glad to see no more of the "Malack and Tarquin hate each other" posts

[Pokonic]

35 years?
But aren't Nale and Elan in their very early twenties? :smallconfused:

So presumably Malak was already working with Tarquin before he married the boys' mother. Long time.

Yep. And apperently, they can work out there differances easly, which is a far cry from the other old adventuring team active before the comics start.

[Whiffet]

Eh. Mixed feelings here.

I do like seeing how Tarquin and Malack interact, and I'm curious about just what the Rajah incident was. I'm also glad to see Qarr is back. It'll be interesting to see what the only character completely loyal to the IFCC does.

That said, I'm getting to where I really want to see things happen. Undoubtedly the pacing will feel much better in the book, but right now it's like almost no progress is made in each update.

[ti'esar]

35 years?
But aren't Nale and Elan in their very early twenties? :smallconfused:

So presumably Malak was already working with Tarquin before he married the boys' mother. Long time.

Eh, I don't really see that as news. I always understood the timeline as, essentially:


Tarquin, Malack, and the rest of their team adventure together
Tarquin retires from adventuring and settles down with Elan and Nale's Mom
Tarquin gets divorced, takes baby Nale, and tries to conquer the Western Continent (talk about your midlife crisis)
Tarquin calls the old team back together for his scheme


So nothing new there, except that now we have more of a guess towards what the actual years were.


we already knew that

absolutely beautiful strip glad to see no more of the "Malack and Tarquin hate each other" posts

Indeed. You don't spend that long working together to fall out over one dispute like this, even if it's a pretty serious one. (And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure Tarquin is, for all intents and purposes, sincere here).

[Dr.Epic]

Character development!

Also, I think Tarquin looks better in purple.

[Gift Jeraff]

The dangerous thing about Tarquin is that he can be sincere and have an ulterior motive. He was sincere about loving and helping Elan, yet he also helped out his archnemesis. Even if he does plan on choosing Elan over Nale in the long-run, simply letting Nale live and freeing Zz'dtri is putting Elan and his friends' lives at risk.

Likewise, I think he's sincere about being impressed by and helping Nale, but he is obviously planning something with Malack. So he may be sincere with his apology and be up to something.

[137beth]

No chance, it would require Elan and Nale to be the "reasonable adults" in Sabine's fear. Their jobs are completely safe.

[EpsilonShawn]

absolutely beautiful strip glad to see no more of the "Malack and Tarquin hate each other" posts

Those posts are still going to happen. Personally I'm hoping that Tarquin was being genuine.

[fwiffo]

I loved the "Grown-ups are talking, Nale" line. I expected the usual ego trip from Nale at that point, but I guess he was so taken aback that he forgot about it. That takes skill.

+1 to Tarquin awesomeness score.

[Conuly]

Although I, too, wish to know what happened with the rajah I can see that it's probably funnier if we never find out.

[Hendel]

I wonder what dark energy Malack was planning to unleash in his hand while yelling at Tarquin.

[Finagle]

Odd that Tarquin puts down Nale and then refers to him as commander almost in the same breath.

How do you "take the measure" of a bard? All he does is play his little tune and give his team bonuses. What else could Tarquin possibly have expected?

As soon as Tarquin apologizes, it's all smiles with Malack again. I seem to remember reading one of the articles on this site where two evil villains were friends just because they had known each other so long, while the PCs tried to enlist one's help against the other. Pretty much the same thing, here.

And what could Qarr have possibly been up to? He said he was reporting in to the Directors...but what could he have to report? An update on Vaarsuvius' behavior during the wizards' duel?

[Deuce]

But then again, with a guy like Tarquin you have to wonder how much of this is really respect and how much is just playing along not to lose a useful ally/tool. :smallconfused:

And yet, the funny thing is - respect can really be rooted in that. He respects Malak's usefulness to him. Absolute really altruistic respect is almost unheard of - might not even exist. I'm not sure there's really anything that unhealthy about mutually beneficial friendships. A thief needs her fence, an assassin needs his client, and Tarquin needs his healer (and Malak needs his meat shield).

I guess I'm just trying to say that sometimes the lines blur.

[brized]

If you take a moment to consider just how much trust Tarquin's scheme (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) requires, how many things could go wrong with it, and how long it's been going on successfully, you should have a good idea of how tight Tarquin and his team really are.

[Chantelune]

Nice update, like the way Tarquin and Malack interact with each other. I tend to think T is genuinly apologizing to M there, though he might have several other reasons other than friendship to do so. Evil characters are always hard to keep working together, loyal evil being the "easiest" to deal with. They wouldn't had last as a rather successfull team for 35 years without being more than just allies or tool to each other.

And love how Nale goes from a happy expression to disappointment while witnessing the two arguing then making up. :smallamused:

[deuxhero]

This is why I love Tarquin as an antagonist.

[Mutant Sheep]

Tarquin is too rational. And Malack calmed down like he was some sort of cold blooded creature. I am quite confused. :smalltongue:

[Euodiachloris]

I just love the reactions of the peanut gallery: Nale's expression changes are priceless. But, the sheer dumbfounded affront both Qarr and Sabine manage? Heeee. :smallbiggrin:

[Nephrahim]

Likable villains.

Man, Xylon is going to flay them to pieces when he shows up, and I will be sad.

[Bobb]

I think Tarquin has finally admitted to himself that either Malack or Nale has to go, permanently.

I think in panel nine he is agreeing with what Malack says in panel seven and is going to save Nale from Malack and kill Malack, breaking his longstanding protocols and his stability as ruler of the continent for family ties.

EDIT: And panel eight is him trying to; find any possible scenario where both his lifelong friend and his son live, being frustrated at his sons foolishness and needless arrogance, making peace with having to kill his best friend, reminiscing in all the times they've shared over 35 years, figuring out the logistics of defeating him and staying in control of Nale and Sabine while beating Elan to the gate, all while figuring out how and why Elan is masking his true potential during this fight. :smallwink:

[oppyu]

See, that's what makes Tarquin such a dangerous antagonist. Not Xykon-level dangerous, but certainly dangerous enough to be a big bad in his own right if the epic-level undead lich sorcerer wasn't around. Cunning, people skills, and a considerable amount of badass.

[MReav]

:nale:: Strange, they don't have murderous feelings toward each other for legitimate slights, lets alone quasi-imagined ones.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I blame the Internet... :smallfurious:

[tcrudisi]

Nice update, like the way Tarquin and Malack interact with each other. I tend to think T is genuinly apologizing to M there, though he might have several other reasons other than friendship to do so. Evil characters are always hard to keep working together, loyal evil being the "easiest" to deal with. They wouldn't had last as a rather successfull team for 35 years without being more than just allies or tool to each other.

And love how Nale goes from a happy expression to disappointment while witnessing the two arguing then making up. :smallamused:

The first time I read it, I got the impression that it wasn't a genuine apology. It had to do with me misreading a line. I read, "Next time we face, I won't goof around like that." And I thought he was subtly threatening Malak. But now that I re-read it, "Next time we face them, I won't goof around like that", the line has a genuine feel to it.

This comic does feel like a setup. Tarquin and Malak having a problem, the promise to resolve it. What happens the next time Tarquin puts himself before Malak? I don't think Malak would flip sides, but I could see him just up and leaving.

[t209]

I think we see Tarq's traits now (Smart, powerful defensive ability and knows when to apoligize).
This is the first comic update that I read in Burma and wow, it is a good timing after we got electricity back on after a black out.

[Warren Dew]

Maybe I have a weird sense of humor, but I find Nale's expression in the penultimate panel absolutely hilarious.

Sabine's line in the final panel is just as great.

[brionl]

In regards to Sabine's last comment, that's how you can tell the Internet hasn't been invented yet. :)

[brionl]

I love the exchange between the two of them, great writing there Giant. Malack does have some cajones, talking to Tarquin like that. Now we just have to wonder if Tarquin' apologies are sincere or just pragmatism...


"Sincerity. If you can fake that, you've got it made!"

[SpaceBadger]

LOL! "Grown-ups are talking, Nale." :smallbiggrin:

Nice one, Giant. Helps us understand what is going on between Tarquin and Malack and "It's business!"

[The Shadow]

There's no question in my mind but that Tarquin's apology is sincere.

And that 'long-standing protocols' line just cements what I've suspected all along - that Tarquin has promised Malack Nale's head when this is all finished.

[ti'esar]

And that 'long-standing protocols' line just cements what I've suspected all along - that Tarquin has promised Malack Nale's head when this is all finished.

Ooh - I didn't really consider that, but you could well be right.

[Anarion]

There's no question in my mind but that Tarquin's apology is sincere.

And that 'long-standing protocols' line just cements what I've suspected all along - that Tarquin has promised Malack Nale's head when this is all finished.

Yeah there's probably something like that. This comic makes it crystal clear that Tarquin and Malack have a system and, personal indulgences notwithstanding, they adhere to that system. Considering how much influence Tarquin's party has over the whole continent, I can see why they stick to what works.

[Exediron]

Aww :smallsmile:

I for one found it to be very heartwarming. Although I can't shake the feeling that Tarquin may just be appeasing his important ally (who also happens to be a close friend) now that he has the information he wanted. I don't think he's the sort who does basically anything 'without taking into consideration' something which would be so obvious to himself.

I don't think it's setting them up for a falling out, however - I think it's more in line of contrasting the way they handle disagreements with the way pretty much every other group (and particularly the other villains) handle such incidents.

[RMS Oceanic]

So how much of what Tarquin said is true?

I'm actually inclined to say all of it, or at least 95%. Rich has previously demonstrated the philosophy that being evil is no barrier to having friends and family you care about. They may yet be planning some kind of backstab against Nale, but I see no reason to think they're going to be at each other throats. It would take another external source of tension to introduce the possibility of that.

[Emperordaniel]

And what could Qarr have possibly been up to? He said he was reporting in to the Directors...but what could he have to report? An update on Vaarsuvius' behavior during the wizards' duel?

He was also reporting on Sabine, apparently. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html)

As for today's comic: I liked it. It gives us more insight into the workings of Tarquin's team (and that creamed spinach incident sounds hilarious). :smallbiggrin:

[Grail]

I loved the "Grown-ups are talking, Nale" line. I expected the usual ego trip from Nale at that point, but I guess he was so taken aback that he forgot about it. That takes skill.


Nale is probably used to that line from his father.
Also, Nale knows he needs his father and his allies to do anything. Getting into an argument here would be self-defeating, and though Nale has exhibited this kind of petulance before, we haven't seen it when his father is involved, who Nale is obviously scared of.

[Almaseti]

That's a great strip. Tarquin just keeps going up in my estimation.

[A Weeping Angel]

Great update! I really like the dynamic between Malack and Tarquin. I also especially liked the last panel and sabines comment.

[Hamiltonz]

Awesome. It's nice to see Tarquin showing those leadership skills that has kept him in power all these years. That not something that Zykon has. He has to rely apon Red Cloak for that.

[Faltenin]

OMG IT WAS TARQUIN UNDER THE MASK!!??!!!

:smallsmile::smallsmile::smallsmile:

As a side note, if Mr T holds back his punches until he sees Elan demonstrate his leadership, he might wait quite a while :smalltongue:

[Red XIV]

How do you "take the measure" of a bard? All he does is play his little tune and give his team bonuses. What else could Tarquin possibly have expected?
Bards can also cast spells. And Tarquin knows Elan's also a Dashing Swordsman (though he presumably doesn't know how many levels of it).

[Lizard Lord]

It would seem that Tarquin likes/respects Malak enough to take his feelings into account.

But then again, with a guy like Tarquin you have to wonder how much of this is really respect and how much is just playing along not to lose a useful ally/tool. :smallconfused:

Malak said "per our long standing protocols". I'm guessing he is talking about protocol's that Tarquin created or helped create (or at the very least adhered to for a very long time). Therefore I would think it is more about a lawful character realizing that he is breaking his own rules if nothing else.

[ss49]

Don't human fighters start at 14-15? Making Tarquin maybe 50.

[Mike Havran]

Awesome strip. I have no doubt Tarquin has been fully sincere here. You can not adventure with a friend for 35 years and still be successful at faking sincerity. Tarquin's group members must be very loyal to each other, otherwise their scheme would have ended long time ago.

I also loved Nale's deflated expression in next-to-last panel. It must be finally dawning on him that he is ultimately screwed, and only deux ex machina could save him now.

[RMS Oceanic]

Don't human fighters start at 14-15? Making Tarquin maybe 50.

The minimum age for any human adventurer is 16, so if Rich is following those rules he is at least 51.

[dtilque]

Don't human fighters start at 14-15? Making Tarquin maybe 50.

At least 51, since the youngest a fighter can be is 16 (as I understand it). But I expect he's actually closer to 60 than 50.

The "Class and Level Geekery" has his age at about 41, based on Belkar's guess as to his age. But Belkar doesn't know his age any more than we do.

[KoboldRevenge]

What's with the blood coming out of shouting Malack's mouth? Vampire or what?

[RMS Oceanic]

I think that's just spit.

[Emperordaniel]

OMG IT WAS TARQUIN UNDER THE MASK!!??!!

...you didn't know that until now? :smallconfused:

[The Pilgrim]

Bro's before ho's, without doubt.

[King of Nowhere]

Nice piece of character depicting in there.
If Tarquin's party has stayed united for decades, it's certainly because they were always willing to talk their problems. They probably also set some rules about personal not being equal to important, and tarquin realized he was breaking them.

I also liked how tarquin was able to shut nale with a few words. Says something about how carismatic he can be.

And I'm wondering what happened with the incoronation. I hope we see that in a bonus comic

[Sutremaine]

Malack must be bothered if he's worked up enough to be spitting blood (it's been mentioned that he's pretty frail).


Bro's before ho's, without doubt.
Who are the hos (hoes?) here and why are you using a sexist slur to describe them?

[Burner28]

This is a surpiringly sweet scene.

[FAD!]

Love that fourth panel Malack! :smallbiggrin:

Also, Nale should fear them now, right?

[A_Moon]

The Giant's ability to create villains I like so much never ceases to astound me.

[t209]

At least comic is getting on its humor track after seeing Resistance crushed, Tsukiko's death and V's vengeance (and unintended death of Draketooths and the people they have kids with). I like how you manage to shift the tone of the comic, Rich.

[androkguz]

If you take a moment to consider just how much trust Tarquin's scheme (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) requires, how many things could go wrong with it, and how long it's been going on successfully, you should have a good idea of how tight Tarquin and his team really are.

+1

Tarquin's scheme could never work if the members of the party didn't trust each other so much.

In my mind, the narrative purpose of this turn of events is similar to the one in this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html): to subvert a trope. So far we were thinking "ohh, I see, distrust among the ranks, that's definitely what will destroy this very efficient evil duo. As you know, evil characters can't really care for someone else, it is always manipulation", so the Giant is telling us "well, you know what? They can! Also, reasonable adults don't suddendly become irrational when the protagonists arrive"

[Icedaemon]

Odd that Tarquin puts down Nale and then refers to him as commander almost in the same breath.

That's similar to how his team has operated often enough for the last handful of years though.

I do like the character interactions in this strip. Reasoned responses and honestly appraised grievances in an ostensibly evil group? Nice.

[pendell]

Fascinating.

THANK YOU Malack for ending the sequence and getting this show on the road.

Hmm .. Tarquin's and Malack's approach to problem solving is entirely different from Nale's holding of needless grudges and petty revenge for decades. Will he learn from it?

And of course anyone watching this discussion knows darn well there will be a reckoning between Malack and Nale after Nale has served his purpose.

Also, the dynamic between Nale and Tarquin clearly indicates that Tarquin has settled into his familiar role of true power behind the throne -- Nale is commander in name only, just as the Empress of Blood is ruler in name only. Tarquin still holds all the power.



"ohh, I see, distrust among the ranks, that's definitely what will destroy this very efficient evil duo. As you know, evil characters can't really care for someone else, it is always manipulation", so the Giant is telling us "well, you know what? They can! Also, reasonable adults don't suddendly become irrational when the protagonists arrive"


Because Rich Burlew is not R.A. Salvatore, whose antagonists constantly backstab each other. The War of the Spider Queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Spider_Queen) is nothing but five books on the themes of villains behaving stupidly.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Euodiachloris]

Hmm .. Tarquin's and Malack's approach to problem solving is entirely different from Nale's holding of needless grudges and petty revenge for decades. Will he learn from it?

To be honest, I'm not going to put any money down on the chance he will. He's had how long to see Dad & Mates in action, and still hasn't twigged? This cannot be the first time he's seen flare ups (maybe not about something so fundamental, that I'll grant you).

Nah: if Nale is very, very clever and very, very wise, he'll learn. However, his wisdom score is about as high as Elan's intelligence one. :smalltongue:

[elros]

It is such a pleasure to read about competent villains. I'm not sure which pair of villains is more dangerous, Malack & Tarquin or Xykon & Red Cloak. Team Evil may have higher levels, but the Linear guild is showing signs of intelligent planning and teamwork. Can't wait to see how the order handles them both!

[Heksefatter]

I believe that this is the first time that I have seen anyone settling their differences reasonably and within a short time frame in the OotS-verse.

[ulgulanoth]

what I whant to know is why the LG wanted the OotS to go inside the pyramid, maybe Tarquin does know he is a second rate villain and that Xyclon and Red Cloak will teleport (epic teleport) next to the gate for a 3(?) way battle or something...

[Cuthalion]

I believe that this is the first time that I have seen anyone settling their differences reasonably and within a short time frame in the OotS-verse.

Well, they are old adventuring pals.
Anyway, I liked this comic, though it might have been interesting to see that previous gag. :smallcool: Malack's character is quite enjoyable. I think Malack corresponds to V more than Durkon, though I'm not sure..

[Bulldog Psion]

I believe that this is the first time that I have seen anyone settling their differences reasonably and within a short time frame in the OotS-verse.

Yes, it is quite rare.

It's kind of unfortunately that I like Malack because I'm guessing his chances oа surviving this book are around zero. :smallfrown:

[Palthera]

I've been underwhelmed by the last few comics, but this? This was amazing! It was really well written and had me smiling by the end of it... :D

[Omergideon]

I......I Just.............

sigh.


Not for me. That is all that can be said. So Tarquin really was just playing around with the order and was not fighting at anywhere near full capacity. And calms Malack down quickly and easily.

Well I thought the character development for the 2, Malack especially, was really great. But Tarquin is still coming across to me as a smug git who needs to be utterly decimated and destroyed ASAP. He himself does not interest me. And I dislike him so completely and utterly I cannot fairly review any strip that has him as a mjor part.

I truly despise having to read about him and watch his smugness coat the screen. So in short, Tarquin is one of my least favourite antagonists of all time and the sooner he is gone the better.


Still love the comic, and will of course read it and debate specifics. But no review as I could not be fair right now when my personal opinion is such a massive factor, even compared to normal.

[RNGgod]

Personally, I really like the contrast between the Tarquin's group (we need a fancy name for them, by the way) and the Order of the Scribble.

One group out to rule a significant portion of the world, behaves harmoniously, while the other, out to save all of existence, fights among their ranks.

[Cynric]

He just keeps getting more and more awesome. I'd vote for him... If he had elections... Or was willing to give the pretence of standing in them...

[pendell]

Personally, I really like the contrast between the Tarquin's group (we need a fancy name for them, by the way) and the Order of the Scribble.

One group out to rule a significant portion of the world, behaves harmoniously, while the other, out to save all of existence, fights among their ranks.

Not surprising.

IME, there's always one or two people who are the heart and soul of the team. That person may not be the leader. They may be the least effective person on the team. But it's their character, their heart , that changes the group from a disparate group of individuals into a family.

In the OOTS, that is Roy. The OOTS falls apart when he's not around. And Elan is a close second. Together they make a whole person -- The OOTS would not exist if Elan had not helped Roy with the recruiting in the initial recruiting, and Elan's zaniness keep Belkar and Haley reconciled to Roy's uptightness. Roy provides the intelligence and strength of will that Elan lacks. Put these two together, and you have the nucleus of a team. Remove one or the other, the order falls apart.


In the Scribble, I believe that was Kraagor and Serina. Somehow he was the glue that kept the lawful good soon and the chaotic-something Gerard fighting together. Once the glue was gone, the team exploded from long-simmering tensions and disagreements.

I haven't seen enough of Tarquin's team to understand the dynamics there, but I suspect that without Tarquin or Malack the team would likewise fall apart.

So maybe it's not one person that's the heart and soul of a team -- it's a partnership between two individuals that makes the foundation. If that partnership exists, the team will live. Strike that fundamental relationship, everything falls apart.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Winter]

I also like the difference between Tarquin & Malack (&LG) and Team Evil.

Both are antagnoists, both have a leader, but how it works out is entirely different.

[RNGgod]

Not surprising.

IME, there's always one or two people who are the heart and soul of the team. That person may not be the leader. They may be the least effective person on the team. But it's their character, their heart , that changes the group from a disparate group of individuals into a family.

In the OOTS, that is Roy. The OOTS falls apart when he's not around. And Elan is a close second. Together they make a whole person -- The OOTS would not exist if Elan had not helped Roy with the recruiting in the initial recruiting, and Elan's zaniness keep Belkar and Haley reconciled to Roy's uptightness. Roy provides the intelligence and strength of will that Elan lacks. Put these two together, and you have the nucleus of a team. Remove one or the other, the order falls apart.


In the Scribble, I believe that was Kraagor and Serina. Somehow he was the glue that kept the lawful good soon and the chaotic-something Gerard fighting together. Once the glue was gone, the team exploded from long-simmering tensions and disagreements.

I haven't seen enough of Tarquin's team to understand the dynamics there, but I suspect that without Tarquin or Malack the team would likewise fall apart.

So maybe it's not one person that's the heart and soul of a team -- it's a partnership between two individuals that makes the foundation. If that partnership exists, the team will live. Strike that fundamental relationship, everything falls apart.

Respectfully,

Brian P.


I like this, but I think it's a teensy bit more complicated. The few images we have of the Order of the Scribble, pre-Kraagor's death, are not ones of absolute harmony. I'm sure there are tensions in Tarquin's group, too, but it seems to me that if Kraagor was the glue, as you put it, he was the very last drop of glue; that is to say, he was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the catalyst for problems within the group in the first place.

I think without Tarquin/Malack, his group would fall apart, but not in the way the Scribblers did. With them gone, tensions and schisms would appear, not come to a head.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[skaddix]

I like this, but I think it's a teensy bit more complicated. The few images we have of the Order of the Scribble, pre-Kraagor's death, are not ones of absolute harmony. I'm sure there are tensions in Tarquin's group, too, but it seems to me that if Kraagor was the glue, as you put it, he was the very last drop of glue; that is to say, he was the straw that broke the camel's back, not the catalyst for problems within the group in the first place.

I think without Tarquin/Malack, his group would fall apart, but not in the way the Scribblers did. With them gone, tensions and schisms would appear, not come to a head.

Yeah you saw some tension although I am not sure I saw anything worse then some of the stuff the OOTS does to each other.

[homeslice]

:smallbiggrin:

That was a great strip.

I love the little noodle incident that was put in there as well.

[RNGgod]

Yeah you saw some tension although I am not sure I saw anything worse then some of the stuff the OOTS does to each other.

Quite possibly, in which case we can draw distinctions between the forces of good- Stick and Scribble- and our medium evil. By that, I mean Tarquin's group, because our big bad evil, Xykon and Co., is certainly NOT harmonious in any way.

[factotum]

Quite possibly, in which case we can draw distinctions between the forces of good- Stick and Scribble- and our medium evil. By that, I mean Tarquin's group, because our big bad evil, Xykon and Co., is certainly NOT harmonious in any way.

I don't think that has anything to do with degree of evilness--Tarquin is certainly right up there with Xykon on that front after what he did to those escaped slaves. If it *does* have anything to do with alignment, it's probably more that he and Malack are closer in alignment than Xykon and Redcloak on the law/chaos axis--but it could just be that these guys are genuine friends and are acting on that basis, whereas the alliance of Xykon and Redcloak is purely one of convenience with no friendship or even respect between them.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, the dynamic between Nale and Tarquin clearly indicates that Tarquin has settled into his familiar role of true power behind the throne -- Nale is commander in name only, just as the Empress of Blood is ruler in name only. Tarquin still holds all the power.The comic made it quite clear that Nale gave an order which Tarquin followed (and twisted for his personal objective). That is quite different from what we've seen of the Empress of Blood, the Weeping King, Queen Shvitzer, and Lord Tyrinar. They seem to have no say and all executive decisions stem from Tarquin & friends.

[Winter]

The comic made it quite clear that Nale gave an order which Tarquin followed (and twisted for his personal objective).

Yes, do not kid yourself Nale has any influence on the executive side of things. Tarquin will twist, ignore or argue against any orders Nale gives he does not like.

What his true outlook on all this is shown in this comic "Grown-ups are talking, Nale". That is how much influence he has and how many "orders" he can give: Zero.

Tarquin just tried to use this as excuse vs. Malack which did not work as Malack is way too smart to fall for this.

[Burner28]

Personally, I really like the contrast between the Tarquin's group (we need a fancy name for them, by the way)

The Crimson Grandmasters?:smalltongue:





And of course anyone watching this discussion knows darn well there will be a reckoning between Malack and Nale after Nale has served his purpose.



How more powerful is Malack than Nale?


Not surprising.

IME, there's always one or two people who are the heart and soul of the team. That person may not be the leader. They may be the least effective person on the team. But it's their character, their heart , that changes the group from a disparate group of individuals into a family.

In the OOTS, that is Roy. The OOTS falls apart when he's not around. And Elan is a close second. Together they make a whole person -- The OOTS would not exist if Elan had not helped Roy with the recruiting in the initial recruiting, and Elan's zaniness keep Belkar and Haley reconciled to Roy's uptightness. Roy provides the intelligence and strength of will that Elan lacks. Put these two together, and you have the nucleus of a team. Remove one or the other, the order falls apart.


In the Scribble, I believe that was Kraagor and Serina. Somehow he was the glue that kept the lawful good soon and the chaotic-something Gerard fighting together. Once the glue was gone, the team exploded from long-simmering tensions and disagreements.

I haven't seen enough of Tarquin's team to understand the dynamics there, but I suspect that without Tarquin or Malack the team would likewise fall apart.

So maybe it's not one person that's the heart and soul of a team -- it's a partnership between two individuals that makes the foundation. If that partnership exists, the team will live. Strike that fundamental relationship, everything falls apart.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Interesting, although I believe it may be possible that everyone in Tarquin's team is the "glue."

[skaddix]

I think its clear Malack is stronger. He already owned Nale with Harm. Not to mention Sabine was scared to fight.

[RNGgod]

I don't think that has anything to do with degree of evilness--Tarquin is certainly right up there with Xykon on that front after what he did to those escaped slaves. If it *does* have anything to do with alignment, it's probably more that he and Malack are closer in alignment than Xykon and Redcloak on the law/chaos axis--but it could just be that these guys are genuine friends and are acting on that basis, whereas the alliance of Xykon and Redcloak is purely one of convenience with no friendship or even respect between them.

Apologies; I meant "medium" and "big bad" in terms of story impact, not depth of evilness.

[RMS Oceanic]

It is such a pleasure to read about competent villains. I'm not sure which pair of villains is more dangerous, Malack & Tarquin or Xykon & Red Cloak. Team Evil may have higher levels, but the Linear guild is showing signs of intelligent planning and teamwork. Can't wait to see how the order handles them both!

You've just reminded me that Team Tarquin also provides an interesting contrast to Team Evil. As has been pointed out in this thread already, Rich does not subscribe to the idea that evil people working together are incessantly striving to backstab each other. With this in mind however, Team Evil actually does fit that stereotype. Redcloak may not be actively planning to screw Xykon over when this is all said and done, but their entire relationship is based on deceit, and the last story arc showed us Xykon was actively looking for other options.

It underlines the theme of trust I've seen in this book: Girard's paranoia about Soon, Ian's refusal to look past blood, Haley's realisation that she's mostly developed above such distrust, V not confiding in the Order about what happened that fateful lunchtime, Team Evil's connivance against each other, and now Tarquin and Malack demonstrating perhaps the healthiest trust in the comic, but against our heroes. I look forward to reading what Rich has to say about it in the commentary.

[Icedaemon]

IRT Pendell:

With Tarquin's team though, all six seem to be able to function if not independently then at least paired with any one of the others and still manage their part of the Disposable Despot game well enough that the system has worked for years. We do know that Tarquin is the mastermind and strategist of the group. Malack is the healer and (main) divine caster, yes. He is also sickly and might have some sympathy from one or two of the others due to that. However, the other four have not been fleshed out in-comic. They all need to be competent and capable of cooperation - no Belkar or v-like members, not more than one at least.

It has been establish that they have exchanged partners while obtaining new figureheads. Thus, it's not even an issue of 'of these six people, these three pairings work best', since several other pairings need to work as well.

[LordofNaught]

This was a nice little strip. It didn't really advance the plot, but it showed how strong the bond between Tarquain and Malack is. That apology was genuine (I hope), something I don't expect to see often, if at all, from a designated villain.

[Felixc-91]

Nale must be so confused^^ Probably very true.
ALERT, ALERT: competent high level LE character detected. this could get tough.
Also, random thought: it looked like Malak was yelling (or as close as he could get to yelling) when he first started talking to Tarquin. Is it possible Haley heard some of that? T and M are standing on the pyramid at this point, so depending on how deep into the pyramid that trap is they might not be that far from the order...

[Doug Lampert]

How do you "take the measure" of a bard? All he does is play his little tune and give his team bonuses. What else could Tarquin possibly have expected?

He could have expected that Elan would sing for one round, and then fight while continuing to sing, maintaining bard song for combat bonuses isn't an action.

He could have expected Elan to sing for one round, cast spells for five rounds while the bonuses linger, and then sing for one more round so the party is never NOT getting the bonuses.

Singing should NEVER be all your bard does in combat. It takes one round and then continues, the fight lasted more than one round. Ergo, Elan should have been doing more than giving his team bonuses.


Bards can also cast spells. And Tarquin knows Elan's also a Dashing Swordsman (though he presumably doesn't know how many levels of it).

Yep, Tarquin knows Elan has melee combat skills, and you can melee combat while maintaining song.

DougL

[LordRahl6]

:smallbiggrin:

That was a great strip.

I love the little noodle incident that was put in there as well.

Agreed Homeslice, I find it interesting and fun because they worked things out. (At least temporarily.):smallwink:

Also the biggest differences betwwen Team Evil and Team Tarquin is the each is on the opposing sides of Law-Choas chart in the Evil department. Chaaotically aligned individuals hardly ever work together as long as Team Evil has, and even there are signs that Redcloak is planning to do in Xykon. Tarquin, though evil, is working to organize the forces under his control for something that he perceives as better.

[NENAD]

Redcloak is Lawful.

[Aotrs Commander]

Beautifully done. I really like to see rational, reasonable and still Evil characters. I tip my hat to you once more, O great Giant!

[Forum Explorer]

Amazing comic and I really really hope that the Giant makes a prequel comic book focused on Tarquin and his adventuring group.

[Forikroder]

There's no question in my mind but that Tarquin's apology is sincere.

And that 'long-standing protocols' line just cements what I've suspected all along - that Tarquin has promised Malack Nale's head when this is all finished.

i think the protocols are more about rulkes they set up when they all went into bussiness of conquering the continent to make sure things didnt go awry (like no personal feelings are to be put above bussiness)

[skaddix]

Agreed Homeslice, I find it interesting and fun because they worked things out. (At least temporarily.):smallwink:

Also the biggest differences betwwen Team Evil and Team Tarquin is the each is on the opposing sides of Law-Choas chart in the Evil department. Chaaotically aligned individuals hardly ever work together as long as Team Evil has, and even there are signs that Redcloak is planning to do in Xykon. Tarquin, though evil, is working to organize the forces under his control for something that he perceives as better.

The biggest differences. Are Team Evil hates each other, does not trust each other and has different goals. None of that applies to team Tarquin. Although alignment wise Tarquin says he does not work with loose cannons like Thog. So presumably he likes LE and NE.

[Icedaemon]

LN and TN are probably fine too.

[Cuvalwen]

The comic made it quite clear that Nale gave an order which Tarquin followed (and twisted for his personal objective). That is quite different from what we've seen of the Empress of Blood, the Weeping King, Queen Shvitzer, and Lord Tyrinar. They seem to have no say and all executive decisions stem from Tarquin & friends.

Strictly speaking, Tarquin requested permission to follow a course of action which Nale approved (#849).
It's subtler than the mindgames pulled on the rulers you mentioned (because Nale is probably more aware of his father's techniques- the apple not falling very far from the tree and all that), but no less manipulative. And still Tarquin's idea.

[King of Nowhere]

Also the biggest differences betwwen Team Evil and Team Tarquin is the each is on the opposing sides of Law-Choas chart in the Evil department. Chaaotically aligned individuals hardly ever work together as long as Team Evil has, and even there are signs that Redcloak is planning to do in Xykon. Tarquin, though evil, is working to organize the forces under his control for something that he perceives as better.


The biggest differences. Are Team Evil hates each other, does not trust each other and has different goals. None of that applies to team Tarquin. Although alignment wise Tarquin says he does not work with loose cannons like Thog. So presumably he likes LE and NE.

I think the biggest difference between Team evil and Tarquin's team is that the members of team evil have different goals (Xykon don't know exactly what is redcloak's goal, but he surely figured redcloak don't want to conquer the world just to give the power to Xykon).
On the other side, in Tarquin team everyone share the same goal, i.e. domination over the continent through manipulations of the various fighting warlords. They decided to pursue this goal, and they decided to put aside any personal feeling while following it ("this is business"). So they can get along much better.

By the way, Malak's desire to not have durkon killed is as personal as tarquin's toying with the order. I wonder if that will lead to something?

[Forikroder]

I think the biggest difference between Team evil and Tarquin's team is that the members of team evil have different goals (Xykon don't know exactly what is redcloak's goal, but he surely figured redcloak don't want to conquer the world just to give the power to Xykon).
On the other side, in Tarquin team everyone share the same goal, i.e. domination over the continent through manipulations of the various fighting warlords. They decided to pursue this goal, and they decided to put aside any personal feeling while following it ("this is business"). So they can get along much better.

By the way, Malak's desire to not have durkon killed is as personal as tarquin's toying with the order. I wonder if that will lead to something?

he desires to kill Durkon himself and i dont see him wining that Tarquin threw Durkon around

[gamephil]

By the way, Malak's desire to not have durkon killed is as personal as tarquin's toying with the order. I wonder if that will lead to something?

I thought Malak wanted to handle Durkon himself, not necessarily let him live. Is that wrong?

[Caivs]

He said he wanted to ''handle'' him himself, and said Durkon deserved that honor, regardless of his minor deception. The fact he complained at the acid balls implies that he either wants a duel on completely even grounds, or he intends to have him live.

Personally I think that while he doesn't care about the lives of the other OotS, he indeed hopes to spare Durkon. He'll probably offer him a safe-conduct during the battle, but if Durkon denies him I suppose he'll attack.

[Cuvalwen]

I thought Malak wanted to handle Durkon himself, not necessarily let him live. Is that wrong?

That's my reading of it, too. He'd bonded somewhat with Durkon; and while he's prepared to accept that his clerical colleague's death may be necessary, he's not keen on the idea of Durkon being some collateral damage caused by Nale's own 'kill Elan' mania. My interpretation is that Malak feels that Durkon is owed a more honorable end than one he would receive from Nale- who is the base murderer of his- Malak's- family.
I think this might turn out to be pivotal. Exactly how, I'm not sure- I don't think that it's enough to turn Malak against Tarquin- but it's probably enough to make him finally snap against Nale at a key point.

[LordofNaught]

That's my reading of it, too. He'd bonded somewhat with Durkon; and while he's prepared to accept that his clerical colleague's death may be necessary, he's not keen on the idea of Durkon being some collateral damage caused by Nale's own 'kill Elan' mania. My interpretation is that Malak feels that Durkon is owed a more honorable end than one he would receive from Nale- who is the base murderer of his- Malak's- family.
I think this might turn out to be pivotal. Exactly how, I'm not sure- I don't think that it's enough to turn Malak against Tarquin- but it's probably enough to make him finally snap against Nale at a key point.

Now I have to wonder...could it be Malack is the one that'l send Durkon home in a casket? It's certainly possible. I still don't know about Malack turning on Tarquain, but Malack snapping and going after Nale is bound to happen, unless the Giant wills otherwise for whatever reason.

[Subzero008]

I honestly can't tell if Tarquin's just showing off his poker face, or if he genuinely feels apologetic to his friend. I wouldn't be surprised if he's just using Malak, but at the same time, he may just as easily value him as a real friend and legitimately feel bad for his actions.


I blame my confusion on the Giant's expertise at making awesome and complex characters. :smalltongue:

Knowing the clever bastard, it's probably both.

Again, another reason why Tarquin could just as easily be the Big Bad as Xykon.

[Cuvalwen]

Now I have to wonder...could it be Malack is the one that'l send Durkon home in a casket? It's certainly possible. I still don't know about Malack turning on Tarquain, but Malack snapping and going after Nale is bound to happen, unless the Giant wills otherwise for whatever reason.

Erk! Misspelt Malack's name all through my earlier post. Not even a typo... :smalleek:

I'm with you re. Tarquin's apology being genuine- if for no other reason than that after 35 years Malack would be familiar enough with Tarquin's style to be able to spot when he's faking it. Plus, of course, after all that time either genuine respect and friendship develops or one would have already sold out the other for personal gain. So- no, I don't see Malack turning on Tarquin because of Durkon.

I can see a possible deal-breaker of a conflict between Malack and Tarquin, to do with each's offspring, but it'll take some time to formulate and probably calls for its own thread- which might happen later but it's late for me now.

[DenDresden]

I don't think that has anything to do with degree of evilness--Tarquin is certainly right up there with Xykon on that front after what he did to those escaped slaves. If it *does* have anything to do with alignment, it's probably more that he and Malack are closer in alignment than Xykon and Redcloak on the law/chaos axis--but it could just be that these guys are genuine friends and are acting on that basis, whereas the alliance of Xykon and Redcloak is purely one of convenience with no friendship or even respect between them.

Tarquin killed the slaves because they were rebellious and escaped. Xykon kills things because he can.

I guess I feel Tarquin has to be convinced to kill people (doesn't take much convincing, but he doesn't just murder people), whereas Xykon has to be convinced not to.

[Forikroder]

Tarquin killed the slaves because they were rebellious and escaped. Xykon kills things because he can.

I guess I feel Tarquin has to be convinced to kill people (doesn't take much convincing, but he doesn't just murder people), whereas Xykon has to be convinced not to.

i dont think weve seen enough of Tarquin to say that so quickly

and since "making me look a tiny itty bit microscopicly amount bad in front of my son and ill arrange for you to fight your friend to the death in the colloseum" id say him and Xykon are pretty equal when it comes to senseless killing but Xykons alot less far sighted (wanted to kill off the horde because no more use for them)

[XanKrieger]

Now I have to wonder...could it be Malack is the one that'l send Durkon home in a casket?
That seems to Malack's plan. He states that "He alone shall handle the dwarf" when they are compiling the team to go after the OotS. Sidenote, we haven't seen KilKil at all since 849

[factotum]

Tarquin killed the slaves because they were rebellious and escaped. Xykon kills things because he can.

I guess I feel Tarquin has to be convinced to kill people (doesn't take much convincing, but he doesn't just murder people), whereas Xykon has to be convinced not to.

It was more the method of the deaths that concerns evilness, in my mind--both Xykon and Tarquin have been shown to happily torture people to death. The *reasons* for killing them are law/chaos related--Tarquin needs a good reason to kill someone because he's Lawful, whereas Xykon will happily kill anyone for fun because he's Chaotic.

[Ekul]

This brings to my thoughts the conundrum of who actually killed Malack's children.

I honestly can't tell if Tarquin either did it himself or ordered Nale to do the deed- From the fact that Nale didn't instinctively try to set the record straight it seems to point towards Tarquin's innocence.

The best move for Nale is to get Malack to believe Tarquin did it, or that Nale did it on Tarquin's order. He could TRY to use Suggestion, but Malack's will save is probably impossible to overcome. He's going to have to use actual trickery.

The best move for Tarquin is, whether he's innocent or not, to Geass/suggestion/blackmail Nale into accepting full blame for it, and he's probably already got a back up plan if he was the murderer.

The best move for Malack is Zone of Truth and hold person.

The final possibility that I can forsee occuring is that Tarquin's actions led to their deaths, and he was afraid of Malack's retribution, so he sacrificed his own son.

The weakness with lawful evil is that often the idea of controlling your friends is often too tempting to pass up even at risk of losing them. Then again, Tarquin is genre savvy, pragmatic and intelligent, so maybe the sheer usefulness and force of friendship is too much to pass up. However, Tarquin's diplomacy/bluff may be high, but Malack has a wide assortment of intent-detection systems in place, such as discern lies, zone of truth, sense motive as a class skill tied to his primary attribute. And yet, for all those intent detections, he did not detect the bluffing of the party. So that's a point against that defense of Tarquin's morality...

Then again, if Malack realizes what's going on, Tarquin probably will lose unless he has some reliable fallback plan, and Malack turning from an asset to a hazard is one of the worst things that could happen. Tarquin is the type that would be opposed to an action with such a dangerous (and abrupt) potential cost, even at a high benefit. At any rate, if that was the case, he really should have just let Malack kill Nale. It's otherwise too risky to leave him alive.

A major theme of Rich's work seems to be that Evil is self-destructive. Yet, this chapter points to the opposite conclusion in Tarquin's case- indeed, it's been self-sustaining with no sign of slowing for years and years. This is the main evidence in my mind that Tarquin and Malack will ultimately oppose each other, but it's admittedly circumstantual.

I'm probably just overthinking it.

[Murray]

Looks like someone got caught with their hand in the cookie jar!


This brings to my thoughts the conundrum of who actually killed Malack's children. [..]

Kinda happy to see this brought up again. I still can't help but wonder who Tarquin considers a "somebody."

[skaddix]

This brings to my thoughts the conundrum of who actually killed Malack's children.

I honestly can't tell if Tarquin either did it himself or ordered Nale to do the deed- From the fact that Nale didn't instinctively try to set the record straight it seems to point towards Tarquin's innocence.

The best move for Nale is to get Malack to believe Tarquin did it, or that Nale did it on Tarquin's order. He could TRY to use Suggestion, but Malack's will save is probably impossible to overcome. He's going to have to use actual trickery.

The best move for Tarquin is, whether he's innocent or not, to Geass/suggestion/blackmail Nale into accepting full blame for it, and he's probably already got a back up plan if he was the murderer.

The best move for Malack is Zone of Truth and hold person.

The final possibility that I can forsee occuring is that Tarquin's actions led to their deaths, and he was afraid of Malack's retribution, so he sacrificed his own son.

The weakness with lawful evil is that often the idea of controlling your friends is often too tempting to pass up even at risk of losing them. Then again, Tarquin is genre savvy, pragmatic and intelligent, so maybe the sheer usefulness and force of friendship is too much to pass up. However, Tarquin's diplomacy/bluff may be high, but Malack has a wide assortment of intent-detection systems in place, such as discern lies, zone of truth, sense motive as a class skill tied to his primary attribute. And yet, for all those intent detections, he did not detect the bluffing of the party. So that's a point against that defense of Tarquin's morality...

Then again, if Malack realizes what's going on, Tarquin probably will lose unless he has some reliable fallback plan, and Malack turning from an asset to a hazard is one of the worst things that could happen. Tarquin is the type that would be opposed to an action with such a dangerous (and abrupt) potential cost, even at a high benefit. At any rate, if that was the case, he really should have just let Malack kill Nale. It's otherwise too risky to leave him alive.

A major theme of Rich's work seems to be that Evil is self-destructive. Yet, this chapter points to the opposite conclusion in Tarquin's case- indeed, it's been self-sustaining with no sign of slowing for years and years. This is the main evidence in my mind that Tarquin and Malack will ultimately oppose each other, but it's admittedly circumstantual.

I'm probably just overthinking it.

I think its quite clear Tarquin did not do it. Otherwise Nale would have said otherwise by now. Not to mention Tarquin gains nothing from screwing a 30 year long ally in such a way. Tarquin with all his genre savvy should know doing that to ally is utterly stupid.

As for the party, Malack only talked to Durkon and V extensively whereas Tarquin had sizable interactions with the whole party.

I am not sure that is theme. We have seen good guys self-destruct case and point Miko. Haley's dad is pretty darn self destructive. Not to mention the Collapse of the Order of Scribble. So are some bad guys self destructive yes but no more then the good guys.

[Killer Angel]

Tarquin's apology being genuine- if for no other reason than that after 35 years Malack would be familiar enough with Tarquin's style to be able to spot when he's faking it. Plus, of course, after all that time either genuine respect and friendship develops or one would have already sold out the other for personal gain.

..and the long-standing protocols must be a strong enforcer of all this. :smallwink:

[Scactha]

:smallbiggrin:

That was a great strip.

I love the little noodle incident that was put in there as well.Me too. I can´t put my finger on it, but I like Rich's comic for similar reasons I love Wattersons. Something about the ability to storytell on different levels at once. E.g. Watterson likes art yet ridicules its self importance and Rich presents the genre loaded fantasy in a satirical, yet with deeply developed characters.

[ThePhantasm]

Knowing the clever bastard, it's probably both.

Again, another reason why Tarquin could just as easily be the Big Bad as Xykon.

So clever... equals big bad? No matter what the story and plot itself has indicated?

Xykon is the big bad. Tarquin isn't. I have no doubt everyone will see why once Xykon shows up and the two meet.

[NoobOntheSlide]

Where were the strips on Malak's Children? I forgot about all that back story?

[Tigrita]

There sure are a lot of reptiles desiring familial revenge in this comic. The ABD and her son, Yokyok (the LG kobold in Cliffport) and his father, and now Malack and his (her? has it been specified?) children. Hey, Vaarsuvius was even a lizard once!

Clearly the only conclusion is that Roy is a polymorphed lizardfolk! :smallbiggrin:

[Threadnaught]

Tarquin is obviously the Big Bad of the Desert Empire Triad.
While Xykon is the Big Bad of the main plot. With the Dark One being the Bigger Bad.


Meanwhile Malack cements his status as a badass, forever.

[Icedaemon]

There sure are a lot of reptiles desiring familial revenge in this comic. The ABD and her son, Yokyok (the LG kobold in Cliffport) and his father, and now Malack and his (her? has it been specified?) children. Hey, Vaarsuvius was even a lizard once!

Clearly the only conclusion is that Roy is a polymorphed lizardfolk! :smallbiggrin:

No.

However, in order to finally have a chance to beat Xykon, Roy will be permanently polymorphed into some form of huge dinosaur-based beastman.

[Omergideon]

Tarquin is obviously the Big Bad of the Desert Empire Triad.
While Xykon is the Big Bad of the main plot. With the Dark One being the Bigger Bad.


Meanwhile Malack cements his status as a badass, forever.

More like Tarquin is the arc villain or possibly set up for a later full confrontation being teased now (not my preference but it could happen.

Xykon is the main bad guy of the major plot line and the more important villain.

The Dark One is more of a "man behind the man" type baddie. Not involved enough to be the big bad, but present enough to need accounting for.

And the IFCC are a potential spanner in the works, foreshadowed well enough that I suspect when they play their hand it will be significant.


Anyways my own distaste for the character of Tarquin aside I will say that this strip does showcase a good point. Evil need not be a backstabby horde of nasty fellas who want to burn the world and so on. They can have many virtues from patience to tolerance too. And many of the great villains were quite virtuous in some areas. Mature even. Malack certainly seems to be evil (for being a clear follower of Tarquin and an active participant in the evil regime). But he is also sensible as well. Tarquin too. This is a point that was established well in this strip, by showing, not telling.

I may dislike where some parts of the story are going, but I must admit the Giant is good at what he does.

[Gusion]

This brings to my thoughts the conundrum of who actually killed Malack's children.

I'm probably just overthinking it.

You are, by a lot.

I really thought this was a settled matter and it was extremely clear that it was Nale.

[Winter]

I really thought this was a settled matter and it was extremely clear that it was Nale.

It is? Where? We only know for sure that Malack very strongly believes Nale did it. We have no other source for that information. We also know that Nale's reaction when confronted by Malack is not a sign of the story being correct (I'm not saying it's proof for this or that, but in the only scene where Nale could have confirmed this, he did not).

It might very well be that Nale did it and that is all to it, but the entire setup so far seems questionable enough for me not being surprised should it turn out there's some twist involved.

[Xavon]

I don't know what Sabine is worried about. She can always just go back to being an anthropomorphic personification of really naughty sex. Not like people learning to talk out their differences will decrease the need for that. Heck, she might even find herself with more work.

[Kareasint]

Well, that is not something that you see everyday, Sabine. I would not worry too much about job security. Good character development though. I like the writing in this one.

[Mike Havran]

It is? Where? We only know for sure that Malack very strongly believes Nale did it. We have no other source for that information. We also know that Nale's reaction when confronted by Malack is not a sign of the story being correct (I'm not saying it's proof for this or that, but in the only scene where Nale could have confirmed this, he did not).

It might very well be that Nale did it and that is all to it, but the entire setup so far seems questionable enough for me not being surprised should it turn out there's some twist involved.

For me, it is not questionable. The "How's the family?" thing is completely within Nale's character, taunting his enemy for the heck of it even when he's totally screwed. Nale had several opportunities to claim innocent and he did not even try it (he rather grasped the straw about Xykon), which suggests that the affair has been cut&dried long ago; Nale did it and everybody knows. Nale may be many things, but deliberately keeping a deadly enemy in knowing he had murdered his offspring, especially if Nale's innocent, is far below his level of stupid/unwise.

Also if Nale didn't do it who did, then? Only Tarquin was mentioned, and that would be WAY out of character for him. Killing children of one of his closest friends? Why?

[RNGgod]

Furthermore, we HAVE an example of people believing Tarquin killed someone, while others believed Nale was responsible. A quite recent one, in fact.

And even if the fact that this was already used doesn't make you think we should take "Nale killed Malack's children" seriously, this might: the last time someone's killer was unknown, the Giant gave us a huge clue with Tarquin looking confused at Nale's accusation.

There is no reason for Nale to taunt Malack about his dead children, or stand by with no reaction while said murder is discussed, if he is confused about being accused.

[Gusion]

It is? Where? We only know for sure that Malack very strongly believes Nale did it. We have no other source for that information.

In addition to what 2323Mike and RNCgod said, I encourage you to go look at comic 822 again - panels 6-8 in particular. Nale is actively mocking Malack (again) when Tarquin tells him to get over it.

That is in addition to comics 820, and 811.

I realize that it is unlikely everybody will ever be convinced since there are people who still believe the earth is flat and the sun revolves around us too... but really I don't know how Giant could make it any more plain. I guess if he showed Nale killing Malack's family somebody somewhere would say, "Oh well that could be Tarquin polymorphed!"

[LordRahl6]

Yeah you guys are hitting my point on the nail exactly. (even without Redcloak being LE)

However I do have one issue that popped into my head and no doubt has been discussed at length here. Sabine most likely works for the IFCC correct. Also IFCC stands for Infernal Forces of Choas and Corruption, yes? If the Infernal language is of Devils in 3.5 then aren't they LE by definition? Why are they known as the IFCC?:smallconfused: Is it because it is a better flowing name. I mean I can see perversion corruption and the like, but chaos?:smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Also IFCC stands for Infernal Forces of Choas and Corruption, yes?
...Uh, what? No. Not a single one of those words matches.

Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission.

Why would you think it was that other thing?

[Killer Angel]

Also IFCC stands for Infernal Forces of Choas and Corruption, yes?


...Uh, what? No. Not a single one of those words matches.

Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission

I'll be so nice to provide even a link (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html). :smallwink:

[St Fan]

Incidentally, that "Thog" outfit does not look good on Tarquin without his mask and/or helmet.

Yes, I've been telling myself the same thing. At first I thought it was something like "purple isn't Tarquin's color"... the black and red armor sure looked better.

But then, I finally put my finger on it: it's the lack of cape. We've always seen Tarquin with a cape before; without it, he looks less impressive. A cape does make a villain look better.

:redcloak: I concur.

[J's]

Wait, we are missing something important. How long have T and M left the red dragon without handlers? They even took KilKil, the top paper pusher with them. And how long will this little side quest take them? Anyone else think they will have a rebellion to quash when they get back? (for the purpose of the question let us assume they will return and not get distracted by gate quest/ die permanently).

I wonder if Ian has noticed certain peoples absence.

[Forikroder]

Wait, we are missing something important. How long have T and M left the red dragon without handlers? They even took KilKil, the top paper pusher with them. And how long will this little side quest take them? Anyone else think they will have a rebellion to quash when they get back? (for the purpose of the question let us assume they will return and not get distracted by gate quest/ die permanently).

I wonder if Ian has noticed certain peoples absence.

Ian probably has spent the entire time since escape getting as far away from the palace as possible, and i dont think theres any chance of the empress staging a rebellion theres jsut no foreshadowing at all to hint at it

[factotum]

I don't think he was worried about the Empress staging a rebellion--why would she rebel against herself? All the slaves and other downtrodden people might have a go, but an empire like this one *has* to have multiple levels of authority in it--they can't be going back to ask Tarquin what to do every time the most minor incident happens (not if they want to keep their heads, anyway).

Fundamentally, though, if there was any chance of there being some sort of rebellion in his absence, Tarquin would not have gone--he's not stupid.

[Euodiachloris]

Wait, we are missing something important. How long have T and M left the red dragon without handlers? They even took KilKil, the top paper pusher with them. And how long will this little side quest take them? Anyone else think they will have a rebellion to quash when they get back? (for the purpose of the question let us assume they will return and not get distracted by gate quest/ die permanently).

I wonder if Ian has noticed certain peoples absence.

Meh: she was getting annoyingly expensive to feed, anyway. Quick little rebellion against her sparks up, come back, squash it... back to business as usual after making sure the "rebels" got her, first.

Or, if she gets ideas beyond cow-eating, well, so be it. Swap-time! Time to stage your own "rebellion".

So, the same old thing, except without the warehouse eating red pain in the neck and somebody new in the hot-seat. :smallwink:

[Burner28]

It was more the method of the deaths that concerns evilness, in my mind--both Xykon and Tarquin have been shown to happily torture people to death. The *reasons* for killing them are law/chaos related--Tarquin needs a good reason to kill someone because he's Lawful, whereas Xykon will happily kill anyone for fun because he's Chaotic.

Xykon's killing is Chaotic not because of fun but because of how it is based on a whim.

[FAD!]

Fundamentally, though, if there was any chance of there being some sort of rebellion in his absence, Tarquin would not have gone--he's not stupid.

Plus, he's been teaching his guards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0766.html). :smallwink:

[Mike Havran]

Fundamentally, though, if there was any chance of there being some sort of rebellion in his absence, Tarquin would not have gone--he's not stupid.

Maybe there is something going on that Tarquin hasn't anticipated. Gourntonk's sensitive information (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html) may be quite important. That saying, there would probably no rebellion against the Empire itself, but the Empress may stand up against Tarquin and Malack. She is one Owl's Wisdom away from realising her true position and has quite a bad temper.

[Lynn]

If there is a rebellion when Tarquin comes back, there will probably be a dozen of factions competing to take the power. Tarquin will just offer his help to the dumbest leader and put them on the throne.

[Forikroder]

Maybe there is something going on that Tarquin hasn't anticipated. Gourntonk's sensitive information (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html) may be quite important. That saying, there would probably no rebellion against the Empire itself, but the Empress may stand up against Tarquin and Malack. She is one Owl's Wisdom away from realising her true position and has quite a bad temper.

i doubt it, Tarquin and Malack have been doing this for years im sure there quite adept at doing what they need to do as slyly as possible im sure it would take a smart person to be already suspicious of them to notice something not right

although i am really interested in what the lizard was going to tell her, the arc seems to be wrapping up so i doubt theyll be returning to the EoB so i dont see what this could be foreshadowing


If there is a rebellion when Tarquin comes back, there will probably be a dozen of factions competing to take the power. Tarquin will just offer his help to the dumbest leader and put them on the throne.

the beauty of it is he doesnt really have to he just has to fight with the empress until someone else wins and then "serve" him noone in the continent but his party and a few exceptionals like ian see him as anything more then a freelance general who will serve anyone for money and since he is an amazing general and comes with a powerful high priest the new king/queen wont have a reason not to keep him on the only problem would be if they brought there own general/high priest cause then they have to stage some assasinations

[J's]

Meh: she was getting annoyingly expensive to feed, anyway. Quick little rebellion against her sparks up, come back, squash it... back to business as usual after making sure the "rebels" got her, first.

Or, if she gets ideas beyond cow-eating, well, so be it. Swap-time! Time to stage your own "rebellion".

So, the same old thing, except without the warehouse eating red pain in the neck and somebody new in the hot-seat. :smallwink:

Yes I was not thinking that she would rebel, more that as the handlers are gone she might be in a position where she makes a decision, without someone competent and loyal to T to intercept. I am assuming anything she chooses in that regard would be bad, at least from T's point of view. And the stuttering of the gov may give people ideas. Though it is also possible that people of the EoB are too inured to the oppression to be upset by the oppression and strive to change it.

[LordofNaught]

Today's subject seems to be on the Empress of Blood rebelling, or some form of rebellion occurring in Tarquain's absence. As someone pointed out earlier, the general would not have left if there was even the slightest chance of one happening. As for the empress herself, as well as the "sensitive information", her behavior is either genuine and she's really got a lower intelligence score than a white dragon of Krynn, or its just a ruse and she's just waiting for the right moment to do something.

As for the sensitive information, 50/50 chance its a Chekhov's Gun or just a random event the Giant put in and will have little to no effect on the story. With this world, and especially in the Empire of Blood, its hard to tell.

[rewinn]

Today's subject seems to be on the Empress of Blood rebelling....

The Empress thinks she's in charge, and she doesn't seem to have any beef with Tarquin (...insert cow pun here ...).

[Subzero008]

So clever... equals big bad? No matter what the story and plot itself has indicated?

Xykon is the big bad. Tarquin isn't. I have no doubt everyone will see why once Xykon shows up and the two meet.

While Tarquin may not be the current Big Bad, he could easily become either the next, or topple Xykon, arrange his death, etc.

The Big Bad is not always stronger than the Dragon. But ultimately, the Big Bad is the Final Boss, and its a toss-up between Xykon and Tarquin. (Obviously, they are not affiliated with one another, but a suitable replacement would be the Secret Boss and the Final Boss.)

[Gift Jeraff]

Remember when the archfiends were the guys people said were the new main villains? Well, when that was the case, someone on these boards once said "Xykon and Redcloak are first-stringer villains, the Linear Guild are second-stringers, and the IFCC are third-stringers" (paraphrased). The same could be applied to the recent discussions about Tarquin becoming the new lead antagonist. Except I'd go as far to call him a fourth-stringer.

Tarquin is just a major antagonist introduced halfway through the story. If this was an on-going series with no definite conclusion, then yes, I could see Tarquin becoming the new main villain. But it's not.

Yes, he can kick 5 OOTSers' asses by himself. Yes, he's been given a lot of screentime. Yes, he presents an interesting moral conundrum (villain assisting the Good Guys). Yes, he's a more personal enemy to the heroes than Xykon. But Miko was also all of those...and then she died.

[ThePhantasm]

While Tarquin may not be the current Big Bad, he could easily become either the next, or topple Xykon, arrange his death, etc.

He'll be important for this arc, but I highly doubt he'll be around beyond that.

(I also suspect the LG won't survive this arc either)

[Mike Havran]

Tarquin is just a major antagonist introduced halfway through the story. If this was an on-going series with no definite conclusion, then yes, I could see Tarquin becoming the new main villain. But it's not.

Yes, he can kick 5 OOTSers' asses by himself. Yes, he's been given a lot of screentime. Yes, he presents an interesting moral conundrum (villain assisting the Good Guys). Yes, he's a more personal enemy to the heroes than Xykon. But Miko was also all of those...and then she died.

True, but there are a few distinct differences between them.

1. Miko's presence spanned roughly through two whole arcs and about 300 strips. Tarquin has more depth than Miko, so I somehow don't buy the idea he'll find his doom at the Girard's gate and be done in, say, 150 strips.

2. Given Miko's personality, beliefs and actions, her end was extremely climatic. Given Tarquin's personality, beliefs and actions, it would be anticlimatic and underwhelming if Xykon just offed him in the Girard's pyramid, or he died there in some way because of Elan's actions (Tarquin is not the kind of a man for a noble heroic sacrifice). No, their conflict should be finished in spotlight, without Team Evil's presence overshadowing it.

3. Miko has been killed off for good without any chance of her been raised again. Even if Tarquin died, that would only lead to speculations about whether his buddies from the other Empires can find that level 17 cleric or not. He would have to be "unmade" by Snarl, and I doubt it will appear in this arc. I see it being hidden for the big reveal at Kraagor's gate.

[Gift Jeraff]

1. Miko's presence spanned roughly through two whole arcs and about 300 strips. Tarquin has more depth than Miko, so I somehow don't buy the idea he'll find his doom at the Girard's gate and be done in, say, 150 strips.I disagree that Tarquin has more depth than Miko. Perhaps only slightly more depth. But I agree that he will not meet his end here. My guess is he will die in the next book, along with all his allies (except possibly Malack, who I feel is tied to Odin's prophecy from Origins).


2. Given Miko's personality, beliefs and actions, her end was extremely climatic. Given Tarquin's personality, beliefs and actions, it would be anticlimatic and underwhelming if Xykon just offed him in the Girard's pyramid,Really? Getting casually offed is a perfectly fitting death for a man who's big on dramatic conventions. But again, I don't think he'll die here, and I also don't think he'll be around for Kraagor's Gate (or wherever the endgame will be). EDIT: Oops. Misread your 3rd point as saying Tarquin will be around for Kraagor's Gate.

[Forikroder]

i dobut Tarquin will die, if he does then the time invested showing Elans plan was pointless Elans plan will somehow remove Tarquin and Malack from the battle

[Omergideon]

I disagree that Tarquin has more depth than Miko. Perhaps only slightly more depth. But I agree that he will not meet his end here. My guess is he will die in the next book, along with all his allies (except possibly Malack, who I feel is tied to Odin's prophecy from Origins).

Really? Getting casually offed is a perfectly fitting death for a man who's big on dramatic conventions. But again, I don't think he'll die here, and I also don't think he'll be around for Kraagor's Gate (or wherever the endgame will be). EDIT: Oops. Misread your 3rd point as saying Tarquin will be around for Kraagor's Gate.

I agree with this for the most part. Also though I think that Miko was a much deeper and more interesting character then Tarquin by a country mile and then some. So I could see him dying in this arc.......or more accurately want him to dies sooner rather than later. But with his love of drama, sense of importance and personal ties to the heroes it would be an ultimately sublime subversion in some ways if Xykon were to just smush and zombify him without much effort.

Even if I think, and am becoming more convinced, that he is a physically superior foe meant to be a test for the order where they develop some more impressive strategy and nuance to their combat style/adventuring style. Someone for them to prove themselves against by beating. I fear it is not this, and Tarquin is meant for "bigger" things, but I hope and believe he is not going to be a big deal outside this arc.

[B. Dandelion]

It rubs me the wrong way when the strip uses this kind of hype. It would have been more than enough just to show us that Tarquin admits his own wrongdoing and makes peace with Malack as a result. Having Sabine and Qarr talk him up (albeit ironically) in the background comes off like the audience needs it explained to them how reasonable and adult Tarquin is while emphasizing how special and unique that makes him.

I want to make up my own mind in how I feel about characters. I resent a narrative that insists on making it for me. When it comes off that I can't read the strip until and unless I fully embrace Tarquin's all-around awesomeness, it diminishes the degree of engagement I can ordinarily have with a well-crafted story. Tarquin is awesome should be a conclusion I can reach by myself, not a premise spoon-fed to me.

[factotum]

I thought Sabine's comment was intended largely as a joke, and besides, it isn't just bigging up Tarquin--Malack was involved in this little spat as well! I also don't think the Giant intends for us to see Tarquin as awesome; if he did, he wouldn't have made it clear what an evil little skunk he is with the slave-burning episode.

[B. Dandelion]

I thought Sabine's comment was intended largely as a joke, and besides, it isn't just bigging up Tarquin--Malack was involved in this little spat as well! I also don't think the Giant intends for us to see Tarquin as awesome; if he did, he wouldn't have made it clear what an evil little skunk he is with the slave-burning episode.

It's a joke. But it's an annoying joke because it fits into a larger pattern of character shilling. What Sabine says is that Tarquin is a reasonable, mature adult, and if other people behaved as he did, evildoers from the lower realms would have a much harder time getting anything done. The humor comes from her expressing this ironically -- from her POV that is a BAD thing. Implicit is the suggestion that we should accept her evaluation, just not her dissatisfaction with it.

I'm not using "awesome" as the antonym of "evil". We're supposed to admire his intelligence, flair and competency while still regarding him as a villain. It annoys me when the narrative can't seem to just show those traits, but shows them and then insists on explaining to us how we should interpret what we were just shown. (Admittedly this is preferable to never showing them at ALL but telling us about them as if they had. Doing it this way, for me the result was that the action worked fine and then the punchline made me roll my eyes and killed the effect.)

As for Malack, dude was practically breathing fire until Tarquin's mea culpa. It reflects well on him that he accepted the apology, yeah. But it was Tarquin's reasonableness that got center stage.

[pendell]

It rubs me the wrong way when the strip uses this kind of hype. It would have been more than enough just to show us that Tarquin admits his own wrongdoing and makes peace with Malack as a result. Having Sabine and Qarr talk him up (albeit ironically) in the background comes off like the audience needs it explained to them how reasonable and adult Tarquin is while emphasizing how special and unique that makes him.

I want to make up my own mind in how I feel about characters. I resent a narrative that insists on making it for me. When it comes off that I can't read the strip until and unless I fully embrace Tarquin's all-around awesomeness, it diminishes the degree of engagement I can ordinarily have with a well-crafted story. Tarquin is awesome should be a conclusion I can reach by myself, not a premise spoon-fed to me.

I don't think that was what the Giant was attempting to do. I think he was trying to add a punch line to what was otherwise a very serious comic. That's typically what the end panel is for, at least to my mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hydra Druid]

I like the line "Grown-ups are talking Nate."
Didn't Tarquin JUST say that Nate would be in charge, that was only a few strips ago, true there is a line about how long he had to wear that hood under his helmet, so it didn't JUST happen, but the point is that at the VERY FIRST chance Tarquin got, he disrespected the person who is 'in charge.'

That being said, some very good points have been made about just how 'perfect' a thing Tarquin has going. The 'queen' is too stupid to do anything or make any kind of choices outside of what she is going to eat next.
If someone does try to take over then Tarquin can just pick the rebals who pay him the most, and fit his other guide lines, and help them, or wait to see who ends up in charge. If he doesn't like whoever comes out on top then he can just help one of the other groups take over. The 'New King/Queen' will not even have time to get new T-shirts made!

It has also been pointed out that there are many levels of government, and Tarquin has guided the formation of it all, any big changes will take lots of time to be implemented, and he will have plenty of time to get back and 'fix' whatever he thinks needs 'fixing'.
Part of this is making sure that he knows everything for the king/queen's ears/ear holes only. Tarquin and his team has no doubt cast some form of spell that makes sure that they know everything that is told to any of the 'rulers' of these nations that they are controlling.
After all, knowledge is power, and you can't control the the dummy when they have more power then you do, that is part of why you can't let them see the strings. (Just ask Red Cloak.)
Now there is a though: Tarquin and Red Cloak see each other, fight, and somehow Tarquin realizes that Red Cloak is just as much a puppet master as he is, or at least at a close enough level that they join forces.
This will probably NOT happen, but I can see it happening...
Then again I can also see the monster in the dark throwing off that stupid umbrella in THE VERY LAST comic and being revealed to be the smallest creature in the history of fiction, so don't take that to mean anything. (Hint: He isn't just HIDING in the darkness, he is actually MADE out of darkness!)

[Kish]

I like the line "Grown-ups are talking Nate."
Didn't he JUST say that Nate would be in charge, that was only a few strips ago, true there is a line about how long he had to wear that hood under his helmet, so it didn't JUST happen, but the point is that at the VERY FIRST chance he got, he disrespected the person who is 'in charge.'
Who is Nate?

[Palthera]

It's a joke. But it's an annoying joke because it fits into a larger pattern of character shilling. What Sabine says is that Tarquin is a reasonable, mature adult, and if other people behaved as he did, evildoers from the lower realms would have a much harder time getting anything done. The humor comes from her expressing this ironically -- from her POV that is a BAD thing. Implicit is the suggestion that we should accept her evaluation, just not her dissatisfaction with it.

I'm not using "awesome" as the antonym of "evil". We're supposed to admire his intelligence, flair and competency while still regarding him as a villain. It annoys me when the narrative can't seem to just show those traits, but shows them and then insists on explaining to us how we should interpret what we were just shown. (Admittedly this is preferable to never showing them at ALL but telling us about them as if they had. Doing it this way, for me the result was that the action worked fine and then the punchline made me roll my eyes and killed the effect.)

As for Malack, dude was practically breathing fire until Tarquin's mea culpa. It reflects well on him that he accepted the apology, yeah. But it was Tarquin's reasonableness that got center stage.

I think Malack was also being extremely reasonable, I had thought the strip was something of a dig at all the fantasy works where people are ALWAYS unreasonable, sometimes to the point where it stretches credibility. Where for some reason everyone acts like a sulky teenager regardless of age or supposed wisdom.
The fact that one friend apologised to the other, the other accepted it and the two moved on was just a wonderful contrast to how unreasonable Nale is for example. Sabine is childish and over-reacts and she and her kind play off those over-reactions and unreasonable emotions that most fantasy characters seem to wear on their sleeves.
I read her little comment at the end as about the whole exchange, not just Tarquin admitting he was wrong and sincerely apologising, but Malack accepting his sincere apology because they are friends, who aren't going to fall out over something silly.

[Hydra Druid]

Who is Nate?

So sue me, I put a 't' where I should have put an 'l'.
I meant, Nale, bother of Elan, son of Tarquin.
(Note: If you do sue me, then you will not get very much, I only work 12 hours a week for minimum wage, and I have a wife, a cat and a dog. Translation, I have -$3^27 in the bank!)
EDIT: Just to be clear, that is a negative sign right there, for those of you who didn't know that, that means that I have LESS than $0.00. Also for those of you who are not good at math, that is 3 raised to the 27th power, or 3 multiplied by itself 27 times.
If 3 x 3 = 9, then what happens if you take 9 and multiply it by 3, over 20 times!
Also if you can't tell, this was meant as a small joke, I am not really that far into debt, however I probably will be by next Friday, or maybe the Friday after.)

[rewinn]

.... I have -$3^27 in the bank!)

You're only ONE MINUS SIGN away from owning every particle in the universe!

If you can get that little sign problem fixed, can I be your minion?

[pendell]

I think Malack was also being extremely reasonable, I had thought the strip was something of a dig at all the fantasy works where people are ALWAYS unreasonable, sometimes to the point where it stretches credibility. Where for some reason everyone acts like a sulky teenager regardless of age or supposed wisdom.
The fact that one friend apologised to the other, the other accepted it and the two moved on was just a wonderful contrast to how unreasonable Nale is for example. Sabine is childish and over-reacts and she and her kind play off those over-reactions and unreasonable emotions that most fantasy characters seem to wear on their sleeves.
I read her little comment at the end as about the whole exchange, not just Tarquin admitting he was wrong and sincerely apologising, but Malack accepting his sincere apology because they are friends, who aren't going to fall out over something silly.

Compare and contrast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kalrany]

I think Malack was also being extremely reasonable, I had thought the strip was something of a dig at all the fantasy works where people are ALWAYS unreasonable, sometimes to the point where it stretches credibility. Where for some reason everyone acts like a sulky teenager regardless of age or supposed wisdom.
The fact that one friend apologised to the other, the other accepted it and the two moved on was just a wonderful contrast to how unreasonable Nale is for example. Sabine is childish and over-reacts and she and her kind play off those over-reactions and unreasonable emotions that most fantasy characters seem to wear on their sleeves.
I read her little comment at the end as about the whole exchange, not just Tarquin admitting he was wrong and sincerely apologising, but Malack accepting his sincere apology because they are friends, who aren't going to fall out over something silly.

I have to agree.... Sabine's utter shock at the end made me laugh, too. I will simply say that I thought it was a wonderful comic and I hope that it is something that we can take at face value story-wise. I like the dynamic and hope it holds. Overall, great comic.

[mrmcfatty]

Nale, bother of Elan


omg he is Elan's bother!

[Kish]

omg he is Elan's bother!
His problem is that he wants to be Elan's nemesis but is actually only Elan's bother.

[FujinAkari]

So sue me, I put a 't' where I should have put an 'l'.
I meant, Nale, bother of Elan, son of Tarquin.
(Note: If you do sue me, then you will not get very much, I only work 12 hours a week for minimum wage, and I have a wife, a cat and a dog. Translation, I have -$3^27 in the bank!)

I somehow doubt you have -$7,625,597,484,987 in the bank. This causes the validity of the rest of your post to be cast into question.

[Euodiachloris]

His problem is that he wants to be Elan's nemesis but is actually only Elan's bother.

Noooo, I don't think so. <shifts glasses back from the tip of her nose>

Nale's major problem is that he's his own nemesis, and doesn't realise it. :smallwink:

[oppyu]

Noooo, I don't think so. <shifts glasses back from the tip of her nose>

Nale's major problem is that he's his own nemesis, and doesn't realise it. :smallwink:
I disagree entirely. In my professional opinion, Nale's major problem is that, despite his intellect, he is a colossal moron.

[raymundo]

The day has come when raging Tarquin haters indeed are at least as annoying as the Tarquin lovers. Woe is us readers, who merely try to enjoy a work a fiction and delight in other people's insights of it. Woe, I say!


WOE!!!

[B. Dandelion]

I don't think that was what the Giant was attempting to do. I think he was trying to add a punch line to what was otherwise a very serious comic. That's typically what the end panel is for, at least to my mind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't think it just delivers a punchline. Tarquin was being insensitive and he got called on it. He was able to work things out with Malack instead. If that were it, plus a punchline, I'd think it was frankly awesome.

But the entire narrative changes because that's not the thread that the punchline makes sure to close us on. That thread is that Sabine and Nale's hopes of a fractured alliance between Malack and Tarquin were dashed -- because "even when Tarquin loses, he wins."

Frankly I'm a little tired of that narrative. I thought Tarquin's aw-shucks moment with Malack was undermined in importance as a result of focusing on it.

[Concept]

I somehow doubt you have -$7,625,597,484,987 in the bank. This causes the validity of the rest of your post to be cast into question.

It seems believable to me. I know I have even more than that.

[jere7my]

But the entire narrative changes because that's not the thread that the punchline makes sure to close us on. That thread is that Sabine and Nale's hopes of a fractured alliance between Malack and Tarquin were dashed -- because "even when Tarquin loses, he wins."

I'm not sure where you're seeing that in the text. The strip closes with Sabine and Qarr, who are worried that calm reason will put them — i.e., fiends who exploit mistrust and interpersonal friction — out of a job. It's not a joke about Tarquin at all — Sabine is referring to the worldwide "cooperation economy," so to speak.

It's like a lawyer saying, "Well, if people keep communicating calmly and cheerfully, we'll be out of a job!" or a doctor saying, "Well, if people keep getting over this terrible disease on their own, we'll be out of a job!" That's the funny.

[B. Dandelion]

I'm not sure where you're seeing that in the text. The strip closes with Sabine and Qarr, who are worried that calm reason will put them — i.e., fiends who exploit mistrust and interpersonal friction — out of a job. It's not a joke about Tarquin at all — Sabine is referring to the worldwide "cooperation economy," so to speak.

It's like a lawyer saying, "Well, if people keep communicating calmly and cheerfully, we'll be out of a job!" or a doctor saying, "Well, if people keep getting over this terrible disease on their own, we'll be out of a job!" That's the funny.

I understand what the joke is. I'm talking about what it does to the narrative to end in focusing on that angle with what came before it. Sabine and Nale plainly relish the idea of a fallout between Malack and Tarquin, and they're annoyed when they work out their differences reasonably. Nale doesn't get lines, but his expression is telling. Qarr doesn't seem to much care, but serves the function of giving Sabine a person to explain the situation to. So Sabine complains to him and stresses "us".

[Euodiachloris]

I disagree entirely. In my professional opinion, Nale's major problem is that, despite his intellect, he is a colossal moron.

That was my point. :smallbiggrin: Whatever he does, however close he gets to a goal, he manages to shoot himself in the foot.

[jere7my]

I understand what the joke is. I'm talking about what it does to the narrative to end in focusing on that angle with what came before it. Sabine and Nale plainly relish the idea of a fallout between Malack and Tarquin, and they're annoyed when they work out their differences reasonably. Nale doesn't get lines, but his expression is telling.

I'm really not following. Obviously, the whole strip is focused on Tarquin once again putting the cap on the Malack volcano. Will there come a time when that doesn't work, and everything goes kaplooie? Probably, but we'll have to wait and see. Tarquin has averted this crisis, that's all.

So I could see you being annoyed by the strip itself, if what you really want to see is Tarquin losing control of the situation. But the punchline goes from the specific (Tarquin and Malack) to the general (worldwide cooperation levels). It doesn't say anything about Tarquin.


Qarr doesn't seem to much care, but serves the function of giving Sabine a person to explain the situation to. So Sabine complains to him and stresses "us".

But Sabine doesn't use the word us. She does say "we", in "we'll both be out of a job" — herself and Qarr, who were sent to the prime material plane to stir up interpersonal tensions.

[Forikroder]

It rubs me the wrong way when the strip uses this kind of hype. It would have been more than enough just to show us that Tarquin admits his own wrongdoing and makes peace with Malack as a result. Having Sabine and Qarr talk him up (albeit ironically) in the background comes off like the audience needs it explained to them how reasonable and adult Tarquin is while emphasizing how special and unique that makes him.

I want to make up my own mind in how I feel about characters. I resent a narrative that insists on making it for me. When it comes off that I can't read the strip until and unless I fully embrace Tarquin's all-around awesomeness, it diminishes the degree of engagement I can ordinarily have with a well-crafted story. Tarquin is awesome should be a conclusion I can reach by myself, not a premise spoon-fed to me.

the comment was more for Quarr to show up and give him more sustance then "oh look that imp backs" and set up for the joke

[RNGgod]

The day has come when raging Tarquin haters indeed are at least as annoying as the Tarquin lovers. Woe is us readers, who merely try to enjoy a work a fiction and delight in other people's insights of it. Woe, I say!


WOE!!!

I like Tarquin- not love, but like- and I couldn't agree more.

For pete's sake, everyone, enough with the "every time Tarquin succeeds at anything at all, it's Rich making him invincible!"

He's not invincible, but he's experienced and powerful. He will have his fall; the fact that he hasn't YET doesn't mean the story is being ruined.

[rgrekejin]

For pete's sake, everyone, enough with the "every time Tarquin succeeds at anything at all, it's Rich making him invincible!"

He's not invincible, but he's experienced and powerful. He will have his fall; the fact that he hasn't YET doesn't mean the story is being ruined.

I love it when people talk sense on these forums.

[Yoyoyo]

They'll need Tarquin to be invincible with Xykon coming. Oh please, oh please, oh please, let that battle happen.

[LordofNaught]

The problem is, Tarquain will probably withdraw after assessing Xykon's power, and probably reappear with his entire army or old adventuring party at the best possible dramatic moment while standing on a cliff or some high place when the sun is in the EXACT perfect location and the wind just happens to be blowing at a dramatically correct moment. And all this while striking an awesome pose to make Power Rangers and Super Sentai jealous.

Or at least that what I hope he does. Then the climactic battle can occur.

[Chessgeek]

The problem is, Tarquain will probably withdraw after assessing Xykon's power, and probably reappear with his entire army or old adventuring party at the best possible dramatic moment while standing on a cliff or some high place when the sun is in the EXACT perfect location and the wind just happens to be blowing at a dramatically correct moment. And all this while striking an awesome pose to make Power Rangers and Super Sentai jealous.

Or at least that what I hope he does. Then the climactic battle can occur.

I don't think a climactic battle between Tarquin and his army against Xykon is likely to occur. In part because Xykon doesn't have time to waste killing a B-list villain unless it's for the gate. Xykon won't care about Tarquin unless Tarquin is in the way of Xykon getting a gate, IMO.
Also because that seems too dramatic for Xykon, compared to his rather blunt sense of humor.
Now, if it were just a quick "Meteor Swarm" I could see it. Possibly followed by zombification and use against Elan for chuckles, if Xykon realized they were related. But for the sake of drama? That seems to go against his style.

Edit: Or if some of Tarquin's items look "badass". Then maybe Xykon would go a little out of his way to kill him.

[LordofNaught]

I never said anything about Xykon being dramatic. Did I? I'm trying not to start another argument spanning two pages worth of posts. All I said was Tarquain would probably (keyword "probably", its ultimately up to the Giant) withdraw upon discovering Xykon's power and role, and come back with his old adventuring team or the Empire of Blood's army (or both), at the dramatically appropriate time in a dynamic fashion that'l end up on TV Trope's Crowning Moment of Awesome archives.

[Chessgeek]

I never said anything about Xykon being dramatic. Did I? I'm trying not to start another argument spanning two pages worth of posts. All I said was Tarquain would probably (keyword "probably", its ultimately up to the Giant) withdraw upon discovering Xykon's power and role, and come back with his old adventuring team or the Empire of Blood's army (or both), at the dramatically appropriate time in a dynamic fashion that'l end up on TV Trope's Crowning Moment of Awesome archives.

That is true. I misread your post. Sorry. I stated a harmless counter-arguement. I wasn't insulting you.

Also, I never assumed you said anything with certainty. But if, for example, someone was to say, "Haley is probably going to turn around and betray the order to hope for some pay from the LG," they would still be making an absurd claim, regardless of whether or not they said "probably".

Either way, my first point still stands. Xykon is a man lich of action. He (probably) wouldn't find any point in fighting Tarquin unless it was over a gate or he got some amusement out of it.

Edit: Tarquin's old team may pose a challenge to Xykon, or possibly not. I wanted to add this to make it clear that I did read your entire post.

[LordofNaught]

Which makes me wonder what Xykon would do if the scenario I suggested does happen. You said a quick spell from Xykon, which is probably what he'd do. That Lich is more trigger happy than Offler. But then Tarquain would probably have a heap of spells protecting him, and heaven knows what else. Only time can tell.

[Forikroder]

Which makes me wonder what Xykon would do if the scenario I suggested does happen. You said a quick spell from Xykon, which is probably what he'd do. That Lich is more trigger happy than Offler. But then Tarquain would probably have a heap of spells protecting him, and heaven knows what else. Only time can tell.

Xykon is not trigger happy, Redcloak is more trigger happy then Xykon is Xykon only engages the enemy if A) hes already started the fight with them (like the paladins at Azure city) B) as self defence (like VS V) and C) after having his chat (like both times he fough roy, when he took his sweet time to smash the warning beacon when they found the deva in the tower, during redcloaks tests)

Xykon is not some murder obsessed crazy lich who likes to kill everyone around him for the slightest reasons, hes actually very conservative with his spells only using 2 to kill all the paladins in the throne room and resorting to physical violence against V the first chance he gets and instead of going mano eh mano against Roy jsut breaks the dragon

[Chessgeek]

Which makes me wonder what Xykon would do if the scenario I suggested does happen. You said a quick spell from Xykon, which is probably what he'd do. That Lich is more trigger happy than Offler. But then Tarquain would probably have a heap of spells protecting him, and heaven knows what else. Only time can tell.

Oh. Uh... okay. You actually weren't looking for a fight. I didn't think you meant it.

Yeah, that's a possibility. Depending on who he brings with him and the items he has, he'd be pretty tough to bring down. It does, come down to time, more specifically the time until we can compare the strength of the order and the strength of Tarquin with that of Team Evil. The Order and the LG are fairly balanced, IMO, but Xykon hasn't really been contested by either (Darth V notwithstanding, since he failed to plan much of anything in that assault, and was just outsmarted more than outpowered.) Since, what? Roy vs. Xykon at Azure City? There are a lot of variables here. You're right of course. Only time will tell.

[Euodiachloris]

Xykon is not trigger happy, Redcloak is more trigger happy then Xykon is Xykon only engages the enemy if A) hes already started the fight with them (like the paladins at Azure city) B) as self defence (like VS V) and C) after having his chat (like both times he fough roy, when he took his sweet time to smash the warning beacon when they found the deva in the tower, during redcloaks tests)

Xykon is not some murder obsessed crazy lich who likes to kill everyone around him for the slightest reasons, hes actually very conservative with his spells only using 2 to kill all the paladins in the throne room and resorting to physical violence against V the first chance he gets and instead of going mano eh mano against Roy jsut breaks the dragon

Uh: right.

Well, I don't know the exact number of goblinoids who've died both on-screen and off just because Xykon got a bit bored. I do know they would like to take issue with most of the above. Spells, paralysing touch, random traps, terrible bets... you name it, Xykon's thrown it at them.

And, then there's anybody else he's found it amusing to kill time killing.

He's trigger happy, and not afraid to use it. Plus, he knows exactly how many spell-slots he has to burn. And, uses them as he wishes. Sometimes with tactical thought, sometimes not. It depends on what part of the mood-swing he's on.

[Forikroder]

Uh: right.

Well, I don't know the exact number of goblinoids who've died both on-screen and off just because Xykon got a bit bored. I do know they would like to take issue with most of the above. Spells, paralysing touch, random traps, terrible bets... you name it, Xykon's thrown it at them.

And, then there's anybody else he's found it amusing to kill time killing.

He's trigger happy, and not afraid to use it. Plus, he knows exactly how many spell-slots he has to burn. And, uses them as he wishes. Sometimes with tactical thought, sometimes not. It depends on what part of the mood-swing he's on.

thats not being trigger happy, then being sadistac and evil and easily bored being trigger happy means you shoot first ask questions later and shoot at anything the second you think it could be an enemy

i think considering how much time hes spent chatting with roy, hes obviously not trigger happy hes actual very good at strategizing in battle

[Chessgeek]

Xykon is not some murder obsessed crazy lich who likes to kill everyone around him for the slightest reasons

While what you said may have been true as a whole, this quote, (especially the second part) and other of your examples are fairly disagreeable.

In SoD,He kills and zombifies Xavion, and then uses Xavion's and Xykon's grandmother's zombies to kill his parents. He also killed all the humans and lizardfolk near the Saphire Guard fortress, and the ambassador because his name was too hard to remember.
He also killed Fyron (and his son) because his crown looked "badass."
Not to mention, although he didn't actually act, he found it humorous both when his minions were attacked by acid spitting roaches (or whatever they were), and that it was funny to watch untrained warriors slip and fall on their weapons.

I'd say Xykon's a big fan of murder, necessary or otherwise.

[Euodiachloris]

thats not being trigger happy, then being sadistac and evil and easily bored being trigger happy means you shoot first ask questions later and shoot at anything the second you think it could be an enemy

i think considering how much time hes spent chatting with roy, hes obviously not trigger happy hes actual very good at strategizing in battle

As I stated in the quote you quoted:-


He's trigger happy, and not afraid to use it. Plus, he knows exactly how many spell-slots he has to burn. And, uses them as he wishes. Sometimes with tactical thought, sometimes not. It depends on what part of the mood-swing he's on.

I don't deny that when Xykon puts the business hat on, he does tactics like a pro. Medium to long-term strategy, however, is... not really his forté. And, sometimes even short-term bores him to tears (well, it would, if he had tear ducts, that is). It's a fault of his he knows about. Hence the whole going with the Gate plan from Redcloak in the first place?

[Forikroder]

While what you said may have been true as a whole, this quote, (especially the second part) and other of your examples are fairly disagreeable.

In SoD,
Spoiler

He also killed Fyron (and his son) because his crown looked "badass."
Not to mention, although he didn't actually act, he found it humorous both when his minions were attacked by acid spitting roaches (or whatever they were), and that it was funny to watch untrained warriors slip and fall on their weapons.

I'd say Xykon's a big fan of murder, necessary or otherwise.

allow me to clarify my position more then

he doesnt kill just for the pleasure of killing, he kills when he has a reason, murder to him is an end not the goal, theoretically he could be convinced to never kill anything ever again if you managed to find something amazing enough to distract him with


I don't deny that when Xykon puts the business hat on, he does tactics like a pro. Medium to long-term strategy, however, is... not really his forté. And, sometimes even short-term bores him to tears (well, it would, if he had tear ducts, that is). It's a fault of his he knows about. Hence the whole going with the Gate plan from Redcloak in the first place?

none of that makes him trigger happy though just means he has an extremely short attention span and the personality of a 15 year old

[Chessgeek]

allow me to clarify my position more then
he doesnt kill just for the pleasure of killing, he kills when he has a reason, murder to him is an end not the goal, theoretically he could be convinced to never kill anything ever again if you managed to find something amazing enough to distract him with

Being trigger-happy isn't killing for the pleasure of killing. It's killing at little provocation.
He killed Fyron for the crown.
To compare, that would be like hijacking a car for the bumper stickers.

[Forikroder]

Being trigger-happy isn't killing for the pleasure of killing. It's killing at little provocation.
He killed Fyron for the crown.
To compare, that would be like hijacking a car for the bumper stickers.

killing for fun isnt being trigger happy

if as soon as he entered battle he started throwing around metero swarms, and fireballs and chain lightining and other high powered spells he would be trigger happy, but he doesnt he always trys to concerve his spells and fight using the least amount of spells neccesary

furthermore hes not quick to join a battle either hes perfectly content (as demonstrated numerous times) to delay the fighting for as long as possible generally with witty banter

despite what people seem to think Xykon doesnt actually seem to neccesarily enjoy slaughter (at least not the point where he seeks it out) he has no problem massacring his enemies to reach his goals, and is willing to kill to kill time but if theres a reasonable alternative he has no problem taking it

[Gusion]

I think the important thing to note with Xykon is that he'll kill at a whim, but when he's actually faced with a potential threat he does assess the situation first.

He's not "trigger happy" in the sense that he's stupid. He's not stupid, even if he is a sorcerer. He's just... well, chaotic evil.

I think comic 657 shows how he is actually thoughtful about some things.

[Chessgeek]

He killed Fyron for the crown.

killing for fun isnt being trigger happy

... Fun = Crown?

despite what people seem to think Xykon doesnt actually seem to neccesarily enjoy slaughter (at least not the point where he seeks it out)


In SoD,He kills and zombifies Xavion, and then uses Xavion's and Xykon's grandmother's zombies to kill his parents. He also killed all the humans and lizardfolk near the Saphire Guard fortress
----------
he found it humorous both when his minions were attacked by acid spitting roaches and to watch his untrained warriors slip and fall on their weapons.
...

and is willing to kill to kill time but if theres a reasonable alternative he has no problem taking it
... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html)
Technically that is an example of "almost killing to kill time", but the point is that he enjoys killing people. The reason to take a "reasonable alternative" would be if he were
a. not bored enough to want to kill something.
b. in the mood for torture over death.
Not to mention the fact that you literally said that he doesn't seem to enjoy slaughter, I think that I've already proven you fundamentally wrong.

furthermore hes not quick to join a battle either hes perfectly content (as demonstrated numerous times) to delay the fighting for as long as possible generally with witty banter
:roy: "Now stop wasting time and get moving!"
:haley: "Relax, speaking is a free action." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html)
My response here is just to point out that he is technically not delaying, since it is taking no time.

I think the important thing to note with Xykon is that he'll kill at a whim, but when he's actually faced with a potential threat he does assess the situation first.
This is slightly more accurate IMO, and I would also like to add that he probably enjoys "playing with his food."

So in summary:
Objection!

[J's]

I like Tarquin- not love, but like- and I couldn't agree more.

For pete's sake, everyone, enough with the "every time Tarquin succeeds at anything at all, it's Rich making him invincible!"

He's not invincible, but he's experienced and powerful. He will have his fall; the fact that he hasn't YET doesn't mean the story is being ruined.

Fie, I say fie!

Tarquin will ascend to godhood without having to die, team up with the dark one and eliminate the other gods. Making redcloak and the rest of the goblins superfluous, so TDO abandons them and RC losses his power. All other clerics also lose their power and chaos ensues in the realm of mortals. But that chaos is irrelevant as the death of most of the beings that stiched reality together allows the snarl to escape and destroy everything.

Notice the order is not need for this storyline :smalltongue:

[Forikroder]

... Fun = Crown?

are you really expecting me to list every conceivable reason he would kill somsone?

the crown was cool, Xykon wanted it so he took it


...

hes bored, its entertainment, 2+2 still equals 4


...
Technically that is an example of "almost killing to kill time", but the point is that he enjoys killing people. The reason to take a "reasonable alternative" would be if he were
a. not bored enough to want to kill something.
b. in the mood for torture over death.
Not to mention the fact that you literally said that he doesn't seem to enjoy slaughter, I think that I've already proven you fundamentally wrong.

i guess his sega is out of batteries -.-

he (was) stuck in a medieval setting sitting in a city with no form of art that he would enjoy, its not like there were many forms of entertainment available to him its either have the warriors fight or sit in his room staring at the wall for the 16 hours each day he literally has nothing to do


"Now stop wasting time and get moving!"
"Relax, speaking is a free action."
My response here is just to point out that he is technically not delaying, since it is taking no time.

talking is a free action if you just say something having a conversation is not a free action you cant debate physophy in character and expect your DM to allow it between actions


This is slightly more accurate IMO, and I would also like to add that he probably enjoys "playing with his food."

So in summary:
Objection!

hell kill on a "whim" (like hey that looks cool i want it) but generally the whim isnt jsut to kill (like i have no reason to kill but im going to kill you jsut because your standing there when i felt like killing someone), unless im wrong hes never killed anyone jsut cause theres always been some reason behind it

[saltysugar96]

unless im wrong hes never killed anyone jsut cause theres always been some reason behind it

I think the biggest problem here is that people are operating under different different definitions.

For the record:

trig·ger-hap·py (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trigger-happy) [trig-er-hap-ee]
adjective Informal
1.ready to fire a gun Meteor Storm at the least provocation, regardless of the situation or probable consequences:

In other words, being trigger-happy isn't about why you react in a situation, but how.

Now whether you believe this to be an accurate definition or not, can you see how people label Xykon as trigger-happy using this definition?

[Math_Mage]

Are we still arguing about this? :smallsigh: I find it especially ironic given that the initial poster whose hypothesis triggered this whole argument specifically said that he didn't want to trigger one of these arguments. And we're arguing po-tay-to po-tah-to anyway.

[Omergideon]

Now whether you believe this to be an accurate definition or not, can you see how people label Xykon as trigger-happy using this definition?

But then Xykon does not seem to go in guns blazing for any situation. Even his most "charge ahead whatever" moment in the comic, that being vs the Saphire Guard, he had some gear stashed specifically for such a situation that he could whip out at a moments notice. And generally when he fights he does so in a reasonably smart fashion.

I see why some people would call him trigger happy, but I disagree. He is certainly eager and ready to kill when bored. Or for relatively spurious reasons. But he doesn't act in a half cocked, no thought fashion very often. He does consider consequences to his actions and prepares when he percieves there may be a threat to him somewhere in there. But when bored and with minions he kills because he knows he can get away with it.


And to risk incurring some wrath, we all know I hate Tarquin. But in previous strips I have explained why I find his presence in the story annoying. And with the arguement thing......well it fits a trend of Tarquin coming out on top with little to no difficulty or issue that does not sit well with some. Success is not the issue, uninterrupted and unmitigated success for this guy is. Maybe.

[factotum]

Even his most "charge ahead whatever" moment in the comic, that being vs the Saphire Guard, he had some gear stashed specifically for such a situation that he could whip out at a moments notice.

Gear that he wasn't sure would actually work, I think...certainly Redcloak didn't think the trick with the Symbol of Insanity would work, according to #449. The fact is, Xykon was never supposed to blast straight into the throne room without support from the army, and the fact he did so shows how much of a loose cannon he can be.

[Burner28]

omg he is Elan's bother!

Best post in this thread!:smallbiggrin:

[Forikroder]

In other words, being trigger-happy isn't about why you react in a situation, but how.

Now whether you believe this to be an accurate definition or not, can you see how people label Xykon as trigger-happy using this definition?

no i cant hes extremely conservative with his spells

he didnt throw a single spell at Roy (jsut one at his sword) first time they met

he only used 2 spells the second time they met

he only used one spell to kill the paladins (and one to toy with Ochul)

against Darth V he resorted to smashing him with a stone and choking him instead of more metoer swarms and finger of death

Xykon is not trigger happy


Gear that he wasn't sure would actually work, I think...certainly Redcloak didn't think the trick with the Symbol of Insanity would work, according to #449. The fact is, Xykon was never supposed to blast straight into the throne room without support from the army, and the fact he did so shows how much of a loose cannon he can be.

loose cannon? absolutely

trigger happy? no

[Valyrian]

And to risk incurring some wrath, we all know I hate Tarquin. But in previous strips I have explained why I find his presence in the story annoying. And with the arguement thing......well it fits a trend of Tarquin coming out on top with little to no difficulty or issue that does not sit well with some. Success is not the issue, uninterrupted and unmitigated success for this guy is. Maybe.
As someone who's usually irritated by that, too, I found the current strip refreshing. At least Tarquin got opposition from somewhere he didn't expect, and had to genuinely concede that he was wrong.

[LordofNaught]

I specially said I didn't want to start an argument of this sort! Heavens above, all I did was post a hypothesis about what may happen, and it leads to THIS! Now I can't wait for the next page, if only because all this arguing and some such will be forgotten in lieu of a new set of arguing and discussing. And the chain of events will continue 'till the end of the comic, and maybe past it.

[Forikroder]

I specially said I didn't want to start an argument of this sort! Heavens above, all I did was post a hypothesis about what may happen, and it leads to THIS! Now I can't wait for the next page, if only because all this arguing and some such will be forgotten in lieu of a new set of arguing and discussing. And the chain of events will continue 'till the end of the comic, and maybe past it.

its impossible to start an argument for it to end with only that argument unless its something super basic that ends after one reply

[zimmerwald1915]

I specially said I didn't want to start an argument of this sort! Heavens above, all I did was post a hypothesis about what may happen, and it leads to THIS! Now I can't wait for the next page, if only because all this arguing and some such will be forgotten in lieu of a new set of arguing and discussing. And the chain of events will continue 'till the end of the comic, and maybe past it.
Welcome to the Internet. We hope you enjoy your stay.

[LordofNaught]

Oh I will, I will. I suppose I'll just state my opinions and hypotheses watch the arguments pan out from them, even if I don't want pointless arguments started. So, who else here think that at some point we'll see Tarquain and his adventuring party have a dynamic entrance?

[Forikroder]

Oh I will, I will. I suppose I'll just state my opinions and hypotheses watch the arguments pan out from them, even if I don't want pointless arguments started. So, who else here think that at some point we'll see Tarquain and his adventuring party have a dynamic entrance?

i consider it very unlikely, his team hasnt even gotten names for the most part i think they only exist to develop tarquins character and aside from malack wont have any story importance

[Mike Havran]

So, who else here think that at some point we'll see Tarquain and his adventuring party have a dynamic entrance?

I think we may see them in action somewhere in another story arc, but not as a whole party, but as individual characters or pairs.

[rewinn]

Are we still arguing about this? :smallsigh: I find it especially ironic given that the initial poster whose hypothesis triggered this whole argument specifically said that he didn't want to trigger one of these arguments. And we're arguing po-tay-to po-tah-to anyway.
I find it double-especially ironic considering the last panel of the strip we are ostensibly discussing. It certainly proves the truth of the title!


I love it when people talk sense on these forums.

No offense intended but your love must be often frustrated :smallwink:


... Tarquin once again putting the cap on the Malack volcano. Will there come a time when that doesn't work, and everything goes kaplooie?....

I so wish Malack had taken a level of barbarian ...... when a High Priest goes Lou Ferrigno, the ground itself quakes!

[rgrekejin]

No offense intended but your love must be often frustrated :smallwink:

Oh, you have no idea. :smallsigh:

[KrytenKoro]

no i cant hes extremely conservative with his spells

he didnt throw a single spell at Roy (jsut one at his sword) first time they met

he only used 2 spells the second time they met

he only used one spell to kill the paladins (and one to toy with Ochul)

against Darth V he resorted to smashing him with a stone and choking him instead of more metoer swarms and finger of death

Xykon is not trigger happy



loose cannon? absolutely

trigger happy? no
"Trigger happy" does not mean he has to be using a gun or a certain spell, or has to spam attacks. It means he attacks at the slightest provocation. It means that your solution for any problem or disturbance is "attack, Attack, ATTACK!"

Xykon likes to brag and taunt the other guy when dealing with major characters, but he's generally eager to attack when dealing with any issue (problem or otherwise) when there's minions or generic characters in the room. So, somewhere between triggerhappy and restrained, soitenly.


hell kill on a "whim" (like hey that looks cool i want it) but generally the whim isnt jsut to kill (like i have no reason to kill but im going to kill you jsut because your standing there when i felt like killing someone), unless im wrong hes never killed anyone jsut cause theres always been some reason behind it

he (was) stuck in a medieval setting sitting in a city with no form of art that he would enjoy, its not like there were many forms of entertainment available to him its either have the warriors fight or sit in his room staring at the wall for the 16 hours each day he literally has nothing to do
So, killing for entertainment ("fun"), yeah.

I can't find the actual strip right now, but I recall that when they just got the Hobgoblin army he was killing random soldiers then for s***s and giggles too.

Also, how do you always remember to capitalize character names, but never the first words of a sentence?

[Forikroder]

It means he attacks at the slightest provocation.

show it then

show him attacking at the slightest provocation i dare you find a single strip where the first thing he does is blast something


So, somewhere between triggerhappy and restrained, soitenly

so hes trigger happy

but hes restrained

do you know what that makes him? NOT TRIGGER HAPPY


Also, how do you always remember to capitalize character names, but never the first words of a sentence?

names are pronouns and are supposed to be capatilized dont try to understand it i dont undersand it either

[jere7my]

names are pronouns and are supposed to be capatilized dont try to understand it i dont undersand it either

Names are proper nouns, not pronouns. And a lot of other things are supposed to be capitalized, too. Try "always capitalize the first word in a sentence," if you want a nice easy rule.

[Chessgeek]

show it then

show him attacking at the slightest provocation i dare you find a single strip where the first thing he does is blast something

Okay then, I think I'll post this again.

In SoD,He kills and zombifies Xavion, and then uses Xavion's and Xykon's grandmother's zombies to kill his parents. He also killed all the humans and lizardfolk near the Saphire Guard fortress, and the ambassador because his name was too hard to remember.
He also killed Fyron (and his son) because his crown looked "badass."
SoD is official, even if it isn't posted in strips on the site.

Being trigger-happy isn't killing for the pleasure of killing. It's killing at little provocation.
killing for fun isnt being trigger happy
are you really expecting me to list every conceivable reason he would kill somsone?

the crown was cool, Xykon wanted it so he took it
2 things:
1. You seemed to misread my post the first time, since I said "he doesn't kill for fun" to which you felt a need to counter with, "killing for fun isn't being trigger happy." I never said that it was.
2. But unless your argument is that "Killing for a crown is the same thing as killing for fun," then he did kill at little provocation (in this case it was because he wanted a crown). So while killing for fun could be trigger happy (since they really didn't provoke it in any way besides existing,) it would also extend to killing for a cool looking crown.
Now if Fyron had walked up to him on the street and said, "You are a sorcerer, and I will now kill you," then retaliating isn't being trigger happy.
But if nothing from SoD strikes you as Xykon being trigger happy, then you have an unusual definition of trigger happy.
Actually, I'm curious. You keep mentioning that he only uses X amount of spells at a time. That doesn't matter. If I see a guy walking towards me with a knife, who is shouting, "I'm going to kill you, chessdudeguy," then it would not be trigger happy of me to pull out my (hypothetical) revolver and fire all six shots. It would be trigger happy to see someone walking in my direction with his hand in his pocket, if my response were to pull out the revolver and shoot him, even if I only used a single bullet.
Now, I realize that you have cited a few examples where he talks first then acts, but if you really want an example, here's the first example I found (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html). (It took about 7 random clicks. This was the second strip wherein I saw Xykon, the first where he wasn't just talking to RC. This is undoubtedly not the only example.
Lastly, to LordofNaught, (and everyone who thinks I'm an overly argumentative jerk) sorry, but even if you don't want an argument, there are too many people on the internet who are stubborn and don't have the same opinion for there not to be a really good chance of an argument breaking out over something. Forikrroder and I are among them. So is this guy. (http://xkcd.com/386/)

[oppyu]

You guys realise you're going through the effort of an angry wall-of-text argument about the proper meaning of 'trigger-happy', right?

[Forikroder]

Okay then, I think I'll post this again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessdudeguy
In SoD,
Spoiler

He also killed Fyron (and his son) because his crown looked "badass."
SoD is official, even if it isn't posted in strips on the site.

i must have missed the part where Fryon sought out Xykon and got blasted by him


2. But unless your argument is that "Killing for a crown is the same thing as killing for fun," then he did kill at little provocation (in this case it was because he wanted a crown). So while killing for fun could be trigger happy (since they really didn't provoke it in any way besides existing,) it would also extend to killing for a cool looking crown.

killing for a crown is not provocation, if Fryon had asked him to pass him the salt and Xykon proceeded to meteor swarm then that would be little provocation or if Fryon snuck up behind him or did something that could possibly be thought of as "i think that guy might attack me"

Fryon had something Xykon wanted so Xykon stole it thats not being trigger happy


Now, I realize that you have cited a few examples where he talks first then acts, but if you really want an example, here's the first example I found. (It took about 7 random clicks. This was the second strip wherein I saw Xykon, the first where he wasn't just talking to RC. This is undoubtedly not the only example.

example of what? it shows my point well and hurts your point some but since the monsters had taken over the tower he kept the diary then you cant call it unjustified at all for him to kill them

[Kalrany]

You guys realise you're going through the effort of an angry wall-of-text argument about the proper meaning of 'trigger-happy', right?

I must be over-tired.... I saw "tigger-happy" instead of "trigger-happy" and wondered why people were arguing about a Winnie the Pooh character. Sure, he's awsome, but....

.....going back to work now.....

[oppyu]

I must be over-tired.... I saw "tigger-happy" instead of "trigger-happy" and wondered why people were arguing about a Winnie the Pooh character. Sure, he's awsome, but....

.....going back to work now.....
Tigger's cool. He's totally worth an angry wall-of-text argument.

[Chessgeek]

i must have missed the part where Fryon sought out Xykon and got blasted by him

I have to agree with the masses on this one, it just isn't worth arguing about. (Although oppyu is right Tigger is awesome and text wall deserving).

(And I meant the fact that a fairy sylph whatever that was calmly approached him, and he killed it and turned it into a zombie.)

However, this will be my last post on this argument. I simply don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this.

[Forikroder]

I have to agree with the masses on this one, it just isn't worth arguing about. (Although oppyu is right Tigger is awesome and text wall deserving).

(And I meant the fact that a fairy sylph whatever that was calmly approached him, and he killed it and turned it into a zombie.)

However, this will be my last post on this argument. I simply don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this.

"halt evildoers, this tower is sanctified to the forces of light, if you walk the path of evilship you will find naught but destruction within its walls" is considered calmy aproaching someone?

[Bulldog Psion]

"halt evildoers, this tower is sanctified to the forces of light, if you walk the path of evilship you will find naught but destruction within its walls" is considered calmy aproaching someone?

Well, it's more like a stern warning than a frenzied screaming attack in my book --

-- wait, I'm actually getting involved in this? :smalleek: *Backs out quickly*

[Chessgeek]

"halt evildoers, this tower is sanctified to the forces of light, if you walk the path of evilship you will find naught but destruction within its walls" is considered calmy aproaching someone?

No, you're ... gah! *Rolls 19 on will save*
No comment.

[Forikroder]

Well, it's more like a stern warning than a frenzied screaming attack in my book --

-- wait, I'm actually getting involved in this? :smalleek: *Backs out quickly*

but its not calming aproaching someone, thats totally picking a fight

[Gift Jeraff]

...offering redemption is picking a fight?

I think this is the third time I've seen you deny a central aspect of a character. What gives?

[Forikroder]

...offering redemption is picking a fight?

I think this is the third time I've seen you deny a central aspect of a character. What gives?

hes not trigger happy

and saying "im going to destroy you" is picking a fight

[Bulldog Psion]

but its not calming aproaching someone, thats totally picking a fight

So she's supposed to say, "will you please come in and occupy our tower, Mr. Lich?" in a whiny voice when he shows up with his minions and army to take the place over?

The fight was already picked just by Xykon showing up with an army, and she was just trying to warn him off, as far as I can see.

Tactically, she probably just should have attacked, but she was trying to step down the situation. And that was a mistake, even if a well meaning one, because Xykon already meant to kill anything he met there. Because Xykon is, well, Xykon.

[Math_Mage]

hes not trigger happy

and saying "im going to destroy you" is picking a fight

Fine, whatever, he's some shade of kills-for-whimsy that fits the hypothetical LordOfNaught originally wanted to talk about, but doesn't fit the exact definition of "trigger-happy".

We done? Can we go back to discussing things that people actually want to discuss now?

[Forikroder]

So she's supposed to say, "will you please come in and occupy our tower, Mr. Lich?" in a whiny voice when he shows up with his minions and army to take the place over?

The fight was already picked just by Xykon showing up with an army, and she was just trying to warn him off, as far as I can see.

Tactically, she probably just should have attacked, but she was trying to step down the situation. And that was a mistake, even if a well meaning one, because Xykon already meant to kill anything he met there. Because Xykon is, well, Xykon.

ya well since THEY broke into and conquered HIS tower id say hes jsutified


Can we go back to discussing things that people actually want to discuss now?

if people didnt want to discuss it they wouldnt be, you dont want to discuss it and are trying to make people talk about what you want to talk about

[Chessgeek]

Fine, whatever, he's some shade of kills-for-whimsy that fits the hypothetical LordOfNaught originally wanted to talk about, but doesn't fit the exact definition of "trigger-happy".

We done? Can we go back to discussing things that people actually want to discuss now?

I doubt it. This 'discuss' you speak of: is that fancy talk for argue?
If not, what place does it have on these forums?

[Gift Jeraff]

ya well since THEY broke into and conquered HIS tower id say hes jsutifiedOh no...Not you! I thought the mods had banished all talk of you from these parts!

....Oh wait, you're Mr. Jsutified. Sorry, you looked like this "Morally" fellow we used to know...

[Bulldog Psion]

if people didnt want to discuss it they wouldnt be, you dont want to discuss it and are trying to make people talk about what you want to talk about

I will say, as an interesting side note, these forums have certainly amply demonstrated to me the basic futility of discussion, though. :smallsmile: Everyone has their opinion, nobody really manages to change anyone else's opinion, so the discussions can more or less go on infinitely since it's everyone reiterating their point.

I could draw some general philosophical points from that, but I can see a way it would devolve into dangerous territory fast, so I'll refrain.

[LordofNaught]

It also shows how a SINGLE comment, ONE hypothesis by ONE person, can cause a full fledged blaze.