Shield Other Chain Link

[LanSlyde]

So I got this thought on how to exponentially increase party survival.

We are running a 3.5 campaign with a lvl 6 dragon totem barbarian
current max hp:96

A lvl 6 cleric
max hp: 66

a lvl 6 assassin
max hp: 48

and a lvl6 psion (nomad)
max hp 36

One of the house rules is you automatically receive max hp per level.

anyway, when I get 4th lvl spells get imbue with spell ability, allowing me to transfer up to 2 lvl1 spells and 1 lvl2 spell to my allies that they can cast.

So, I decided to give them all Shield Other. Creating a chain with the castings.

So its like this, the barbarian shields the psion (she is squishy, and the barbarian has the highest hp). The cleric shields the barbarian (as the front line fighter, it will be taking the most dmg, and the cleric has the 2nd highest hp). The assassin shields the cleric (the cleric usually does not take much dmg, due to stupid high AC, and the assassin is almost never targeted). And the psion shields the assassin (the psion is our backline caster and likes to warp about the field a lot.)

SO, example time:
B gets hit with 32 dmg, have gets transfered to C, so B only takes 16.
C takes half of the remainder, being 8, and sends the rest down the chain.
A takes half of 8, being 4.
P takes 2, and the last two dmg would be sent down the chain to C and B again.

Essentially this would pool our hp together. sending individual and party survivability skyrocketing.

Really, the only way the anything would pose a threat to us is if one of the linked members takes STUPID amounts of dmg all at once.

I did the math on it, and (assuming the barbarian gets hit first) it would take a whopping 580 dmg (with our current hp totals) to bring about a TPK. Thats assuming the barbarian takes the initial dmg, because with the division from Shield Other, if anyone else gets hit with that amount or less, we will have at least one member still standing.

What I want to know is what you people think about it.

[JBento]

That depends on how your DM interprets Shield Other. From the srd:


the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks that deal hit point damage

The damage from Shield Other is certainly not an attack, so I guess it depends on it counting as wound or not.

[Madcrafter]

Shield other in general is a fairly badly worded spell. There are whole threads about it if you look for them. It does really depend on how the DM interprets it (if the wounds are literally being transferred or not, if it is the shield that is doing the damage or not, what the type of damage is etc.), but personally I would let it fly.

[LanSlyde]

That depends on how your DM interprets Shield Other. From the srd:



The damage from Shield Other is certainly not an attack, so I guess it depends on it counting as wound or not.

It also says in parentheses in the PHB (including damage dealt by any special abilities).

I'm not sure of the exact definition of special abilities, but technically flaming an acidic could be special abilities of a longsword. So, technically, shield other would be a special ability.

[JBento]

It also says in parentheses in the PHB (including damage dealt by any special abilities).

I'm not sure of the exact definition of special abilities, but technically flaming an acidic could be special abilities of a longsword. So, technically, shield other would be a special ability.

I'm not entirely sure how you made that leap of logic. :smallconfused:

Regardless, Shield Other is a spell. Whether casting spells is a special ability or not (and what type; cue Factotum threads) is irrelevant. Once in place, Shield Other is an ongoing spell. The question is whether the damage it deals is considered a wound or not, which is up to DM adjudication.

[zlefin]

ur math is wrong. shield other won't increase teh damage required for a tpk; it changes the damage distribution so that people are less likely to die before the TPK point; but TPK still happens at the same total damage.
That aside; it's still useful to do; reminds me of the shared damage spell in warcraft 3.

[LanSlyde]

ur math is wrong. shield other won't increase teh damage required for a tpk; it changes the damage distribution so that people are less likely to die before the TPK point; but TPK still happens at the same total damage.
That aside; it's still useful to do; reminds me of the shared damage spell in warcraft 3.

Oh rly? assuming the barbarian gets hit first, and takes say.. 580 dmg. half of that would be 290, the barbarian is now dead. Half of 290 would be 145, the cleric is dead. Half of 145 is 72 (72.5, but it rounds down), The assassin is now dead. That leaves us with 36 damage, the exact amount to kill the psion.

Now, lets go through that again with the cleric as the initial target. Half of 580 is 290, shes dead. Then 145, the assassin is dead. Now 72 dmg, the psion is dead. Half of 72 is 36, the barbarian lives!

My math was not wrong under the scenario given. What I said was if a single party member takes an absurd amount of damage it would have to be at least 580 to pull off a TPK.

The hp total of the party at the current level is 246, run that number through the above scenario and see for yourself what happens.

[LanSlyde]

I'm not entirely sure how you made that leap of logic. :smallconfused:

Regardless, Shield Other is a spell. Whether casting spells is a special ability or not (and what type; cue Factotum threads) is irrelevant. Once in place, Shield Other is an ongoing spell. The question is whether the damage it deals is considered a wound or not, which is up to DM adjudication.

Alright alright, then would be considered a special ability?

[Andorax]

Given the investment (3 4th level spells, 4 2nd level spells), it's not foolproof, but it is a pretty good "return on investment" survivability tactic.

64 points of incomming damage is divided up thus:

Person hit: 32+2=34
First chain: 16+1=17
Second chain: 8+1=9
Third chain: 4=4

The damage isn't truly being distributed evenly throughout...the single point of damage is still going to be taking the brunt of the punishment. 34 vs 4 is a pretty big swing...two of those will drop anyone but the barbarian.

I certainly wouldn't call it an exponential increase in survivability, but it is a good, solid tactic, one I wouldn't shy away from recommending at my own tables.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oh rly? assuming the barbarian gets hit first, and takes say.. 580 dmg. half of that would be 290, the barbarian is now dead. Half of 290 would be 145, the cleric is dead. Half of 145 is 72 (72.5, but it rounds down), The assassin is now dead. That leaves us with 36 damage, the exact amount to kill the psion.

Now, lets go through that again with the cleric as the initial target. Half of 580 is 290, shes dead. Then 145, the assassin is dead. Now 72 dmg, the psion is dead. Half of 72 is 36, the barbarian lives!

My math was not wrong under the scenario given. What I said was if a single party member takes an absurd amount of damage it would have to be at least 580 to pull off a TPK.

The hp total of the party at the current level is 246, run that number through the above scenario and see for yourself what happens.

And why isn't the barbarian killed on the second turn?

Plus, this isn't exactly "skyrocketing survivability".

[Namfuak]

And why isn't the barbarian killed on the second turn?

Plus, this isn't exactly "skyrocketing survivability".

Except that most attacks don't deal 580 damage in one strike at 4th level. I think you would be hard pressed to even find one way to deal that much damage at that level short of infinite loops/extreme abuse.

As Andorax mentioned, this is still a fairly large expenditure of resources, although I think that your math may be off because damage has a minimum value of one (so it will infinitely loop and instantly kill all of you). Even assuming that that is not the case, it may not be so beneficial for the psion to use shield other in the first place, because he has so few hit points. Instead, having the barbarian take his casting and using it on the assassin (as well as casting one on the psion) might make more sense.

[ericgrau]

I did something similar before, but didn't quite reach the epicness of imbue with spell ability yet.

Anyway it combines really well with mass heals. Assuming that's the cleric's primary role then he doesn't need save DCs so he can make con his primary stat rather than wis (he could also cast mass buffs too). Tag on augment healing, ring of mystic healing IIRC, and other standard stuff and you're good to go. Consider mass cure light wounds at level 9 for 1d8+9. x4 averages out to 54 points healed. Cure critical wounds 1 level lower provides 27 HP. Mass cure moderate wounds heals 80 vs. heal's 110, but you don't have to wait for someone to get dangerously low to use it, you can cast it spontaneously and you can cast it at range. With augment healing it's closer at 104 vs. 116.

Survivability DOES go way up because in a typical party TPKs are rare. The biggest threat to a party is usually 1 PC dying. Now that problem will become almost nonexistant. Even if you do face a TPK situation you're more likely to survive because all 4 PCs will be alive longer and fighting rather than losing allies one at a time before finally TPK.

The build I did also had extra efficient self heals since I was the only one with shield other, but that might not be as major in your case. Don't forget enlarge spell or rods of enlarge to increase the spell's small range.

[TuggyNE]

I think that your math may be off because damage has a minimum value of one (so it will infinitely loop and instantly kill all of you).

Fortunately, shield other specifies that the remainder of dividing by two is taken by the original target of the damage:

Additionally, the subject takes only half damage from all wounds and attacks (including that dealt by special abilities) that deal hit point damage. The amount of damage not taken by the warded creature is taken by you.

It takes a bit more work to make shield other produce infinite feedback.

[LanSlyde]

And why isn't the barbarian killed on the second turn?


The barbarian is the last line in the link. By that time the dmg is minimal, therefore he lives.


Plus, this isn't exactly "skyrocketing survivability".

That dmg is calculated for our current level, being six. It's only going to get larger from there on out. So yeah, party survivability goes up.