[3.P] Magus optimization, levels 5-9

[sol_kanar]

Hey!

I am soon starting a small campaign from level 5 to level 9, PBS 28, standard WBL (9000 GP), mix of PF and 3.5 splatbooks (no Dragon or Dragon Compendium).Thanks to a suggestion got in this marvelous forum, I took a look at the Magus class from Pathfinder, and I found it quite interesting.

So far, I got this:

5th-level Magus
Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 15+1 -> +2 item -> 18
Wis 10
Cha 8

Hp: 36 = 1d8 (full) + 4d8 + 10
AC: 16 = +2 Dex, +4 chainmail (up to 26 with spell shield + alter self)
Saves:
Fortitude +7 = +4 (magus) +2 (Con) +1 (item)
Reflex +6 = +1 (magus) +4 (Int) +1 (item)
Will +5 = +4 (magus) +1 (item)


My idea is something like:
- Round 1: swift arcana ("spell shield", +4 AC), alter self for troglodyte (+6 AC)
- Round 2: swift enhancement on weapon, spellcombat (true strike + power attack) with +21 to hit and an average of 24 damage
- Round 3: spellstrike (shocking grasp) with probably +9 to hit and an average of 34 damage
- Round 4 and following: repeat 2 or 3

Questions!

a) Do you think it could be improved? Is there some better tactic to deal damage with a Magus?

b) Feat selection: right now, I have Power Attack, Combat Casting and Insightful Reflexes (apply Int modifier instead of Dex modifier to Reflex save). Any other suggestion?

c) Arcana selection: Spell Shield is interesting, and I will probably take it. For the rest, Lingering Pain sounds great against spellcasters, but Close Range and Arcane Accuracy also look nice. What are your suggestions?

Thanks in advance! :-)

[Keneth]

A few points:
Why are you focusing on Int? Magi generally don't need a lot of Int, they mostly use spells that don't allow saving throws or buffs. I've seen a few magi that build on high Int (Hexcrafters mostly) but this is a wrong build for that.
Why are you using spell shield? It only lasts a round and wastes an arcane point which are far and few. Buy a wand of shield.
True strike is pointless, there's better spells to waste a round on (cat's grace/bull's strength, mirror image, reduce/enlarge person, fly, haste, ...). Go for more Dex (dervish dancer) or Str to buff your attack bonus, use shocking grasp for +3 against creatures with metal weapons/armor, use arcane accuracy if the target is highly armored. You should be able to hit most targets by default. (Shocking grasp also gives you an additional free attack, true strike doesn't.)
Lingering Pain and Close Range arcanas are useless; Lingering Pain costs an arcane point to use and lasts for a single round which is only good if you want to disable a caster for one round, plus it takes an immediate action to use, which you're gonna want to spend on something else (magus needs swift actions, remember you only get 1 swift or immediate action per round). Close Range won't do you much good since there aren't many ranged touch spells on your spell list unless you're gonna use Spell Blending, and even then you're better off using other spells.
Arcanas are kinda limited but Arcane Accuracy and Accurate Strike are more or less a must-have. For your lvl6 arcana consider Familiar (with Improved Familiar feat) for some extra actions, Spell Blending (since there's tons of awesome spells in 3.5), and perhaps Warding if 3rd party material is allowed (better than Spell Shield and frees up more gold for other stuff).
Arcane pool points are precious, use them for recalling spells when you run out, enchanting your weapon (and armor), and in extreme cases for arcane accuracy/accurate strike.
Take a weapon with a high crit range (scimitar is the most common) since it'll greatly increase your damage output (criting with spells is awesome). Take Weapon Focus with your weapon and maybe Arcane Strike (if you have too many feats). Power Attack is also quite cool once you get Accurate Strike but otherwise isn't worth it half the time. Lunge and Intensified Spell (Pathfinder) feats are also something to consider.

I could probably give you tons more advice but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I haven't been playing 3.5 for quite a while though, there's probably some cool stuff there that would be a better fit.

[sol_kanar]

A few points:
Why are you focusing on Int? Magi generally don't need a lot of Int, they mostly use spells that don't allow saving throws or buffs. I've seen a few magi that build on high Int (Hexcrafters mostly) but this is a wrong build for that.
Why are you using spell shield? It only lasts a round and wastes an arcane point which are far and few. Buy a wand of shield.


The short answer to both is: I misread Spell Shield :-D



True strike is pointless, there's better spells to waste a round on (cat's grace/bull's strength, mirror image, reduce/enlarge person, fly, haste, ...). Go for more Dex (dervish dancer) or Str to buff your attack bonus, use shocking grasp for +3 against creatures with metal weapons/armor, use arcane accuracy if the target is highly armored. You should be able to hit most targets by default. (Shocking grasp also gives you an additional free attack, true strike doesn't.)


I was going with true strike because I was thinking of using it in combination with spell combat, thus having an attack with +20 and use the whole bab in power attack with a two-handed weapon (yes, we use the 3.5 power attack).

It's true that with spell combat + shocking grasp you have an "extra attack", but it's basically the same as using spellstrike + shocking grasp, with the additional bonus of not having the -2 to hit of spell combat.



Lingering Pain and Close Range arcanas are useless; Lingering Pain costs an arcane point to use and lasts for a single round which is only good if you want to disable a caster for one round, plus it takes an immediate action to use, which you're gonna want to spend on something else (magus needs swift actions, remember you only get 1 swift or immediate action per round). Close Range won't do you much good since there aren't many ranged touch spells on your spell list unless you're gonna use Spell Blending, and even then you're better off using other spells.


This is a very solid advice: you're completely right.



Arcanas are kinda limited but Arcane Accuracy and Accurate Strike are more or less a must-have. For your lvl6 arcana consider Familiar (with Improved Familiar feat) for some extra actions, Spell Blending (since there's tons of awesome spells in 3.5), and perhaps Warding if 3rd party material is allowed (better than Spell Shield and frees up more gold for other stuff).
Arcane pool points are precious, use them for recalling spells when you run out, enchanting your weapon (and armor), and in extreme cases for arcane accuracy/accurate strike.
Take a weapon with a high crit range (scimitar is the most common) since it'll greatly increase your damage output (criting with spells is awesome). Take Weapon Focus with your weapon and maybe Arcane Strike (if you have too many feats). Power Attack is also quite cool once you get Accurate Strike but otherwise isn't worth it half the time. Lunge and Intensified Spell (Pathfinder) feats are also something to consider.

I could probably give you tons more advice but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I haven't been playing 3.5 for quite a while though, there's probably some cool stuff there that would be a better fit.

Ok, thanks! :-)

[Acanous]

With a Dex of 14 and an Int of 18, Insightful Reflexes is giving you the exact same bonus as Quick Reflexes, which is normally considered a waste of a feat.
True, if you int focus, it will give you a greater bonus in the future, but really I think you could ditch that feat and take something else. There's some suggestions up there already.

[Keneth]

I was going with true strike because I was thinking of using it in combination with spell combat, thus having an attack with +20 and use the whole bab in power attack with a two-handed weapon (yes, we use the 3.5 power attack).

It's true that with spell combat + shocking grasp you have an "extra attack", but it's basically the same as using spellstrike + shocking grasp, with the additional bonus of not having the -2 to hit of spell combat. You can't use spell combat with a two-handed weapon (you need one hand free) and you can't spellstrike with true strike so would have to wait until your next turn to make good on it. The 3.5 Power Attack is a slight improvement but here's what you're getting:

At level 9 with full power attack you get an almost surefire way to hit once for say 2d6 + 1 (enhancement) + 9 (assuming Str score 22) + 12 (power attack) + 1d6 elemental (let's say flaming) = ~31 damage and another attack that is likely gonna miss since true strike only lasts for one attack so you're at -11 penalty.

Meanwhile, a dervish dancer with a scimitar uses spell combat and spellstrike to make two full attacks and two free attacks for a total of six attacks. Assuming he hits with only half of them that's 3d6 + 3 (enhancement) + 12 (Dex 18) + 10d6 (shocking grasp) + 3d6 elemental = ~71 damage.

Any questions? :smallbiggrin:

[sol_kanar]

You can't use spell combat with a two-handed weapon (you need one hand free)


No. That's the whole point of Duskblades (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.fr/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html) using two-handed weapons.



Although the rules don't mention it, letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand or putting a free hand back on the weapon is a free action for you.


The complete reference can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a).



and you can't spellstrike with true strike so would have to wait until your next turn to make good on it. The 3.5 Power Attack is a slight improvement but here's what you're getting:

At level 9 with full power attack you get an almost surefire way to hit once for say 2d6 + 1 (enhancement) + 9 (assuming Str score 22) + 12 (power attack) + 1d6 elemental (let's say flaming) = ~31 damage and another attack that is likely gonna miss since true strike only lasts for one attack so you're at -11 penalty.

Meanwhile, a dervish dancer with a scimitar uses spell combat and spellstrike to make two full attacks and two free attacks for a total of six attacks. Assuming he hits with only half of them that's 3d6 + 3 (enhancement) + 12 (Dex 18) + 10d6 (shocking grasp) + 3d6 elemental = ~71 damage.

Any questions? :smallbiggrin:

I think you are right: I did not realize that you could use spellstrike AND spellcombat at the same time! Starting at level 5, and rearranging my ability scores thanks to your advice, my normal attack bonus with a greatsword will be something like:

+9 = +3 (bab) +4 (Str) +1 (weapon) +1 (weapon focus)

True strike: to-hit +20 (more or less), damage 2d6 (base) + 6 (Str) + 1 (weapon) + 2d6 (energy) + 6 (power attack) = average 27

Shocking grasp:
1 - regular attack with spellcombat) to-hit +7 (-2 spell combat), damage 2d6 (base) + 6 (Str) + 1 (weapon) + 2d6 (energy) = average 21
2 - shocking grasp cast through spellstrike) to-hit +10 (-2 spell combat, +3 shocking grasp) , damage 2d6 (base) + 6 (Str) + 1 (weapon) + 2d6 (energy) + 5d6 (shocking grasp) = average 39

Not bad.

For the defense, since Spell Shield sucks, do you have any advice except Alter Self into a troglodyte?

[Keneth]

No. That's the whole point of Duskblades (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.fr/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html) using two-handed weapons. It may be the point of duskblades but magi can't use spell combat with two-handed weapons. You can cast a spell while wielding a two-handed weapon and even spellstrike with it but spell combat is effectively like dual-wielding, so you can do either one or the other. This is confirmed and there are no loopholes at this time unless you get an extra partial action. :smallsmile:


To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand.


For the defense, since Spell Shield sucks, do you have any advice except Alter Self into a troglodyte? Well 3.5 alter self gives you a nice natural armor bonus. Other than that, you're gonna want to get celestial armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celestial-armor) if possible (normal or plate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celestial-plate-armor) depending on your build), a ring of protection if you can afford it, and a wand of shield is great as mentioned eariler (or you can cast shield normally). Warding arcana is cool for some extra bonus if your GM allows you to get it. These things alone will give you a decent AC but you'll also want to grab mirror image and blur for tough battles. Additionally, haste gives you another +1 bonus to AC, fly will generally take you out of harm's way (or at least prevent flanking), take displacement if there's a lot of mooks, and lastly warding weapon is great to avoid AoOs when casting. Finally you have a bunch of debuffs which will work just as well to prevent offensive actions on the enemy side, such as slow, frigid touch, frostbite, pyrotechnics, and ray of exhaustion.

[sol_kanar]

It may be the point of duskblades but magi can't use spell combat with two-handed weapons. You can cast a spell while wielding a two-handed weapon and even spellstrike with it but spell combat is effectively like dual-wielding, so you can do either one or the other. This is confirmed and there are no loopholes at this time unless you get an extra partial action. :smallsmile:


Ouch, I misread again!



Well 3.5 alter self gives you a nice natural armor bonus. Other than that, you're gonna want to get celestial armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celestial-armor) if possible (normal or plate (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/celestial-plate-armor) depending on your build), a ring of protection if you can afford it, and a wand of shield is great as mentioned eariler (or you can cast shield normally). Warding arcana is cool for some extra bonus if your GM allows you to get it. These things alone will give you a decent AC but you'll also want to grab mirror image and blur for tough battles. Additionally, haste gives you another +1 bonus to AC, fly will generally take you out of harm's way (or at least prevent flanking), take displacement if there's a lot of mooks, and lastly warding weapon is great to avoid AoOs when casting. Finally you have a bunch of debuffs which will work just as well to prevent offensive actions on the enemy side, such as slow, frigid touch, frostbite, pyrotechnics, and ray of exhaustion.

Ok! Thanks a lot! :-)