Leveling up mid-dungeon?

[danzibr]

I'm in the process of making a dungeon. My players should be about halfway to their next level upon entering the dungeon and the dungeon has 3 floors. They should get enough experience to get to the next level before the final boss. Also, at that point they should be somewhat spent.

So here are my questions:

Should I let them level up before the final boss? I know leveling is supposed to require rest and meditation, but it'd be nice to have a power jump before fighting the BBEG.

What if they try to rest? They will have used up most of their resources and rest sounds tempting (perhaps I should have the battles be easier up to the BBEG). The bad guy won't sit still for 8 hours, of course. How do you handles these types of situations?

[Acanous]

Your party seems to be at some magical level where a 3 floor dungeon only levels them half of one, yet they don't have Rope Trick, Secret Shelter, Secure Cottage, Magnificent Mansion, Teleport, Shadow Step, or any of the other tricks for getting to a safe place and back mid-dungeon.

What level is the party?

Also, the party CAN rest in the dungeon, it's just usually inadvisable.

[Invader]

I never had a problem wit allowing my players leveling up in the middle of a dungeon even though I know that's completely taboo to some DM's.

Depending on the situation, they always have the option to leave for a day and come back. They run the risk of monsters making their way back into the dungeon but 1. they're stronger now from leveling up and 2. its only a day so maybe they'll only have 1 or 2 easy encounters before the BBEG.

I would say from the "fun" stand point of your players, there's nothing better than getting a bunch of new powers and spells and trying them out on a boss as long as them leveling isn't going to ruin the encounter.

[Fitz10019]

I prefer between-session leveling up. It's nice to attribute the level-up to defeating that boss, rather than to the routine forgettable death of Orc-the-Nameless#231. That said, you could have a memorable sub-boss, and have them level after that encounter.

Just tell the players to create the next-level versions of their characters, in case they do well. Imply it is only a remote chance.

If you have preparation-based spellcasters in the group, they may whine about how their new spell slots are empty. Tell them to be thankful for their new HPs and skill points.

[Grail]

Should I let them level up before the final boss? I know leveling is supposed to require rest and meditation, but it'd be nice to have a power jump before fighting the BBEG.

What if they try to rest? They will have used up most of their resources and rest sounds tempting (perhaps I should have the battles be easier up to the BBEG). The bad guy won't sit still for 8 hours, of course. How do you handles these types of situations?

Will they need to level up before they meet the boss?

If they will desperately need that level, let them level.

If they don't, then don't.

If you want to let them level, but demand they rest, then how are they resting? Are they using magic to have a nice little hidey-hole? Or are they just going to have a kip in a room that they've cleared out?

Ages ago, we were playing the Ruins of Undermountain in 2e with a party of all wizards (bar 1 Elf Fighter). We would blast our way through the enemies, then someone would throw up a Secure Shelter and we'd rest there for the night. During the night, whilst we were sipping on chardonnay and reading spellbooks, we could hear the sounds of building going on outside our shelter.

When the morning came, we would prepare our spells, lower the shelter and then all hell would break lose. You see, the BBEG that we were in there to get wasn't resting on his heels just as you've mentioned with yours. He had his minions build defenses, bring in ballistae and ready to take us on.

So, each game day we'd blast til our spells were low, then put up a shelter and prepare, whilst the enemy did likewise.

It was very amusing.

Anyway, back to your problem - there's no reason why the boss in your dungeon can't do something similar. If he knows the characters are there, take the offense to them, or take time to prepare his defenses. Just don't leave him sitting with a thumb up his bum like a dupe.

:smallbiggrin:

[Slipperychicken]

You could let them track the xp, but only add the level after the dungeon. If you'd rather they not level up mid-dungeon, say "only add the level once you're done with the mission".


If they try to rest, then the boss (and his remaining minions) comes to them. They killed half his base and now have the gall to sleep in it; show no mercy :smallamused: If you sleep in a dungeon, bad things will happen to you. Silence'd guys charge the guy on watch, cutting off their wake-up call. If they manage to wake up, drop BFC while they scramble half-dressed out of bed. If they don't wake up, keep the Silence going and CDG.

[danzibr]

Oooh thanks for the responses so far.

The problem is, I want them to level up and be rested halfway through the dungeon, but I don't want the bad guys to beef up and jump them during the night (they'll be only level 3), but I also don't want the bad guys to be really stupid.

I don't see those three things happening together. So I can do a few things:

a) Make the dungeon easier.

b) Let them level up and rest without rest.

c) Screw it, it should be hard, see how they deal.

By the way, does anyone know of a 3.5 version of Kill Bargle?

[Seharvepernfan]

Here's how I do it. When the pcs' gain enough experience to level up, they level up the next time they rest for at least 8 hours (4 for an elf). They wake up a higher level.

It's simple, it's easy, and it kinda makes sense. You ever woken up with a really good idea?

[Eakin]

Oooh thanks for the responses so far.

The problem is, I want them to level up and be rested halfway through the dungeon, but I don't want the bad guys to beef up and jump them during the night (they'll be only level 3), but I also don't want the bad guys to be really stupid.

I don't see those three things happening together. So I can do a few things:

a) Make the dungeon easier.

b) Let them level up and rest without rest.

c) Screw it, it should be hard, see how they deal.

By the way, does anyone know of a 3.5 version of Kill Bargle?

I'd say tune the dungeon so that by the end of the second floor they're really spent but have enough XP to level, then give them a reason to retreat and regroup in town (maybe they find a prisoner or hostage that needs to be escorted back to town which, surprise surprise, gives them enough quest XP to push them into the next level). Then return the next day and force them through a couple tough encounters on the last floor so they end up at the boss with their new level, but at 60-70% capacity.

[Tvtyrant]

Oooh thanks for the responses so far.

The problem is, I want them to level up and be rested halfway through the dungeon, but I don't want the bad guys to beef up and jump them during the night (they'll be only level 3), but I also don't want the bad guys to be really stupid.

I don't see those three things happening together. So I can do a few things:

a) Make the dungeon easier.

b) Let them level up and rest without rest.

c) Screw it, it should be hard, see how they deal.

By the way, does anyone know of a 3.5 version of Kill Bargle?

This is a dungeon right? Wait until they are worn down and then script in a cave-in or tunnel flood that gives them a chance to rest. Then have the water subside, the floor beneath the cave-in collapse and so leave enough room for them to go through.

[danzibr]

I'd say tune the dungeon so that by the end of the second floor they're really spent but have enough XP to level, then give them a reason to retreat and regroup in town (maybe they find a prisoner or hostage that needs to be escorted back to town which, surprise surprise, gives them enough quest XP to push them into the next level). Then return the next day and force them through a couple tough encounters on the last floor so they end up at the boss with their new level, but at 60-70% capacity.

This is a dungeon right? Wait until they are worn down and then script in a cave-in or tunnel flood that gives them a chance to rest. Then have the water subside, the floor beneath the cave-in collapse and so leave enough room for them to go through.
Ooooh these are both excellent ideas. I think I'll go Eakin's for two reasons (though Tvtyrant, I really do like yours too): a missing person gives a better plot hook than I currently have for the party going to the dungeon; the dungeon is actually a fairly well-maintained keep, and far above ground, so I can't see how to implement the second idea.

[Tvtyrant]

Ooooh these are both excellent ideas. I think I'll go Eakin's for two reasons (though Tvtyrant, I really do like yours too): a missing person gives a better plot hook than I currently have for the party going to the dungeon; the dungeon is actually a fairly well-maintained keep, and far above ground, so I can't see how to implement the second idea.

Not insulted in the least! The prisoner one does sound pretty awesome.

[hoverfrog]

So the party break into your home, a sprawling castle, and begin killing your servants and guards. You're defences (tricks, traps, locks) are in place and you have many stationary guard posts but these are quickly being overwhelmed. Either your servants report back that the invaders are just too powerful or they don't report in at the scheduled times and your scouts find the looted corpses.

Things are pretty bad. It looks like this group might be assassins of one of your many enemies. They've got magic of their own and they're smart enough to use the resources that you've prepared for your servants against you.

You have a few tactics that you can use against them depending on their actions. Are they attacking as guerilla fighters, striking fast and getting away before you can mount a decent defence? Are they staging a form of trench warfare against you where they take a room or building and hold it against your counter attacks. Against guerillas you have to set up an ambush against them. Give them a target to attack and then strike after they are committed. Cut off avenues of retreat and keep hounding them with your toughest weapons.

If they are engaged in trench warfare then keep them awake all night and whittle away at their resources. Send in strike teams to attack for a round or two and then flee. Try to destroy their supplies while they are defending. Cut off their supply train. If they've brought food and water then attack them with fire or acid (or sewage bombs) and try to destroy their stuff so that they have to give ground. Have someone sneak in and cut waterskins or steal food. If they have to use magic for food and water then you've taken away one of their resources that they were using to attack you. Surround their "trench" with traps and snipers, mine them in and make it difficult to move. You tactics are about attrition, not defeat. Wear them down.

It makes sense to have these kinds of "trenches" in a dungeon for defence even if your enemy can use them too. That is especially true if the defenders have secret tunnels to get behind the invaders.

A party that tries to level up or just rest for the night will have to engage in the trench warfare option. Even having a goblin rogue lock the door to the room they're hiding in will delay them and a few spring mounted crossbows will make a small difference and slow them down.

As a DM if you want to give them the option to level up mid dungeon then either place a natural "no man's land" in the dungeon that the party can easily defend (and that can be defended by the NPCs on the other side). A long corridor or tunnel lined with murder holes at both ends does this well. Or have a group of allies offer them sanctuary. Maybe the prison section\mine\old guard\slave pen was overrun by escaped prisoners and the evil duke hasn't been able to get control yet. The prisoners can't escape but it is defensible enough that they can't be attacked. In exchange for food and weapons the former prisoners (miners, rebels, slaves, etc) will keep watch while the party train and learn spells.

Alternatively you could really cheat and have the party find a one way teleport portal to a nearby store or town. That allows the party to escape, train and return and give the NPCs time to recruit and replenish supplies.

[Malachei]

I dislike leveling up mid-dungeon, but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

But as you can plan ahead right now, why not break up the dungeon levels into two or three dungeons? They could be geographically close, but this would still give your characters a chance to rest, and, perhaps, level up in between. You'd have to improvise entrances and how the characters gain information on the other dungeon's location, but otherwise, everything could stay pretty much the same.

If you prefer a distinct 1st edition feel, of course, you may intentionally go for a long dungeon crawl, but to me, several smaller sites are more fun.

[Flickerdart]

Gaining a level doesn't have to be something you go and stand in line for at the DMV. Just like it's implied that a multiclassing character was cribbing notes from the party Wizard, it can be similarly implied that said party wizard was working on some new spells, and either was able to field-test older spells enough to get the numbers he needed to write a better one, or had an epiphany after tripping on yet another dose of deadly poison. If he levels during the middle of the day he won't have a chance to prepare this new spell, but he'll still gain the capacity for preparing it. Likewise, the increment of HP and saves has nothing at all to do with meditation, and everything with getting better at taking hits and dealing hits after a long enough time of getting hit and hitting back.

[CIDE]

Myself and all the DM's in our group (we cycle through games) support the level up on the fly. In fact we all generally plan the dungeon around the party getting stronger mid-dungeon. Mostly because of how we mechanically and fluff-wise view leveling up.

For a fighter you've been swinging a sword and after a hundred more goblins down you get an epiphany. You can all of a sudden do it better. So, a feat comes to you as you level up. It just makes sense. We don't even require you to rest up.

The only exception so far has been an Everquest D20 game that requires you to visit a guild to spend your training points. Otherwise, we still allow level ups; you're just limited on what you can gain from said level up with EQ.

[Vladislav]

To me, levels are an abstract game concept that has no parallel in the game-world. If a character gains enough XP, he levels at the table, and that's that. In-game, he continues as he was.

[ericgrau]

I'm a fan of versimilitude: Leveling up after training, having foes give you trouble if you try to rest, etc. Instead of leveling up the boss could simply be a level lower. It's not just about being semi-accurate, it also opens up new levels of strategy and new kinds of encounters based on the ways the world runs. Night ambushes, the need to get somewhere to rest & resupply, cutting off access to such things, X spell sometimes countered with Y, etc.

But mechanically nothing will fall apart if you do it either way. Mostly it's up to you.

[danzibr]

or had an epiphany after tripping on yet another dose of deadly poison
Funniest moment of the thread so far.

To me, levels are an abstract game concept that has no parallel in the game-world. If a character gains enough XP, he levels at the table, and that's that. In-game, he continues as he was.
Good distinction. I'll have to closely examine the encounters and see if they can get to the BBEG and not be totally drained.

[prufock]

To me, levels are an abstract game concept that has no parallel in the game-world. If a character gains enough XP, he levels at the table, and that's that. In-game, he continues as he was.

I agree with the premise, but I normally award xp at the end of the session and let them level up between sessions. I find that the bookkeeping of leveling up during the game is just another interruption.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Relevant! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

Also disappointed that I didn't see it here already.

[jackattack]

We used to play that leveling actually required training and/or study. The fighter had to find a combat instructor, the magic-user had to find a magical library to do research (and copy spells), and so on. The idea was that collecting XP reflected increasing proficiency with what you already knew, but going from one level to another required someone to show you new things. It also gave us some nice hooks for roleplaying and plots.

On the other hand, I had a druid/ranger who leveled during dreams sent by his patron deity. No muss, no fuss.

What if there was a trap in the dungeon that sent the characters into a pocket dimension or a dreamscape where time moves differently. There would be a certain irony in the bad guy giving them the time to level up, thus giving them the means to defeat him.

[killem2]

I'm a "give xp at end of session" dm. If that might level them up in a dungeon so be it, but see I always give them ample time before and after each session to get everything in order.

[Daftendirekt]

I'm a "give xp at end of session" dm. If that might level them up in a dungeon so be it, but see I always give them ample time before and after each session to get everything in order.

Hurray for bringing back a thread two weeks after it stopped being a thing.

[killem2]

Hurray for bringing back a thread two weeks after it stopped being a thing.

Oh my apologizes, I didn't realize Giantitp.com is so far on the cutting edge of internet media that two weeks is considered necro material. (I've been blasted for necroing once already and this is well with in the limits of such a thing around here.)

I like the topic, it pertained to me, just because YOU might not see any value in new comments, the OP might. I know I never look down on someone replying to any of my threads, even if it might be a couple weeks out.

[danzibr]

Oh my apologizes, I didn't realize Giantitp.com is so far on the cutting edge of internet media that two weeks is considered necro material. (I've been blasted for necroing once already and this is well with in the limits of such a thing around here.)

I like the topic, it pertained to me, just because YOU might not see any value in new comments, the OP might. I know I never look down on someone replying to any of my threads, even if it might be a couple weeks out.
Indeed, I do appreciate your input. The problem is I'm going to be doing PbP, so there is no between-session. Then again, I guess regular ol' D&D can be thought of continuous game-wise but not time-wise, if that makes sense, and then leveling between sessions would be like getting a burst of power in-game.

As an aside, IIRC thread necro is 6 weeks around here, but I'd have to check the rules to be sure.

[killem2]

Indeed, I do appreciate your input. The problem is I'm going to be doing PbP, so there is no between-session. Then again, I guess regular ol' D&D can be thought of continuous game-wise but not time-wise, if that makes sense, and then leveling between sessions would be like getting a burst of power in-game.

As an aside, IIRC thread necro is 6 weeks around here, but I'd have to check the rules to be sure.

Aye, 6 weeks it is :).

I didn't realize this was PbP, it still could work, could be even more useful, gives players that much more time.

[Oscredwin]

I'm actually a fan of leveling up asap for thematic reasons. I like the idea of someone pushing to the limit and getting a new skill on the spot. A level 5->6 Sorcerer who, when in trouble suddenly flies for the first time. The Barbarian who gets wilder than he's ever been power attacking for full with his Great sword doing double his max crit while only hitting, the Ranger who takes no damage from a fireball. It doesn't work nearly as well for prepared casters, but they're all tier 1 anyway.

[killem2]

I'm actually a fan of leveling up asap for thematic reasons. I like the idea of someone pushing to the limit and getting a new skill on the spot. A level 5->6 Sorcerer who, when in trouble suddenly flies for the first time. The Barbarian who gets wilder than he's ever been power attacking for full with his Great sword doing double his max crit while only hitting, the Ranger who takes no damage from a fireball. It doesn't work nearly as well for prepared casters, but they're all tier 1 anyway.

I don't mind waiting till the end of a session as I said, but the main reason is, so the dungeon I make for that session is still scaled some what appropriately with CR ratings already completely BS for the most part, have it offset mid swing really doesn't help things.

Though I might be in trouble, I started age of worms, but I let them start at level 4, so they are going to waltz right through the whispering cairn, and they were just at the edge of level 5 and got up to level 5 in the first part of the dungeon now.