Pathfinder joint lock grappler?

[Fitch3k]

I do martial arts and wrestling, and would really like to make a build similar to this. Even when using weapons most real combat comes down to grapples, trips, and locks. Knights used to use joint locks to disarm attackers, trips or throws to bring them to the ground, then use that leverage to push down on their sword's guard to pierce the other guys armor.

Is there a way to build something useful that uses trip, grapple, and disarm? Maybe I can't picture it right just from reading the book but the combat maneuvers seem like wasted actions when they should be devasting. For ex, a trip a guy (with a feat I can get an attack), he gets up on his turn, I get an AoO, so if I'm a monk I give up 6 attacks for one AoO? Seems pointless. Grapple seems like you just hold the guy in place rather than injurying a limb with a lock or choking him out.

Any help on how this can be helpful would be appreaciated.

[Spiryt]

Combat in 3.5/PF is pretty extremely non detailed, so all kind of joint/spinal locks fall under damaging your opponent in Grapple.

Just like exact effect of sword strikes beating AC etc. isn't really described at all.

There's always some decent Homebrew floating around though.

[Arbane]

I know the Tetori Monk archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/tetori) is entirely made for grappling, but I haven't seen it in play.

[The Glyphstone]

There's assorted Imp Unarmed Strike/Imp Grapple feats that do 'special moves' - Bonebreaker, for example, makes your Stunning Fist deal Str or Dex damage, or Neckbreaker for Str/Dex damage against pinned enemies.

But yeah, Grappling is highly abstracted in 3.x/PF. If you want a detailed grapple system with specific rules for things like joint locks, this is not the system for you.

[RndmNumGen]

. For ex, a trip a guy (with a feat I can get an attack), he gets up on his turn, I get an AoO, so if I'm a monk I give up 6 attacks for one AoO? Seems pointless. Grapple seems like you just hold the guy in place rather than injurying a limb with a lock or choking him out.


Ah, but tripping is an attack, not a standard action; if you have 6 attacks, you can trip once and then follow up with 5 attacks(with the enemy now having -4 to their AC). Better yet, if you have the Greater Trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-trip-combat---final) feat, when you trip him you get to make an Attack of Opportunity(as do all your allies who threaten him), follow up with 5 attacks, an if he's still alive, make another attack when he gets up on his next turn - all of these attacks with -4 to the target's AC.

Sadly, in Pathfinder Grapple/Disarm aren't as good as Trip. Grapple is a standard action, so you won't be able to get as many attacks off as with a trip, though each turn you maintain the grapple you get to damage your opponent. Unfortunately this isn't very useful against melee opponents, since if they have a light weapon(such as a dagger) they can full attack you, while you still only damage them once per round. Against spellcasters though, you severely limit their casting ability unless they're using the Still Spell feat.

Disarm doesn't see a lot of use, mostly because so many enemies use natural weapons, spell-like abilities, magic, or a wide variety of other effects which can't be disarmed. Against a warrior without Improved Unarmed Strike, disarming can be an effective way to reduce their combat effectiveness.

[Doorhandle]

The above being said, grapple has its uses. For one, getting greater grapple lets you maintain a grapple, once started, as a move action, leaving your standard free for other things, and eventually you get rapid grapple, so you can spend a swift action to maintain the grapple instead and thus still be able to full attack. It’s even better for the before-mentioned Tetori, as the get grab and constrict, doing their unarmed damage when making the check and being able to make an attempt whenever they hit someone with a melee attack.

Agile grappler(for Tetori monks), and improved savage grappler (for brutal pugilist barbarians), allow you to retain your dexterity bonus an opportunity attacks, making the grapple much harder to break as spell casting will prompt 2 spell casting checks instead of one, and you can still threaten surrounding squares.

As for what you wants, the X*-breaker series of feats is what you want. All do nasty ability damage, all of them can only be used in a grapple or pin, and they sound like the joint-lock sort of thing. Also, you will want chokehold, both because it increases the size of things you can pin (in pathfinder, you can grapple everything, you just can’t pin everything, which is what you want to do as it’s very limiting as the foe can’t fight back.), and because it strangles targets and thus makes it that much harder to cast spells, as there are no somatic OR verbal components they can utilise.
*(Bone, back and neck respectively)

The real problem with grappling is that a fairly common effect, freedom of movement, means you cannot be grappled. However, the Tetori monk (with one of it’s powers) and a Barbarian (through the superstion rage-power chain and the “Spell sunder” rage power) can dispel these effects: and will likely have a wizard friend to aid them in that purpose.

Barbarians have the additional advantage of being able to get the strength-surge power, allowing them to make the really hard checks, being able to fall back on a great sword should it fail, plus full B.A.B and rage, always useful for this sort of thing. The Tetori monk, however, gets the necessary feats for free, and therefore has a bit more flexibility in terms of feats, and gets other usual grappling powers, plus he effectively has full-B.A.B for grappling anyway. It really depends on weather you want to be Adre the Giant or Ray Mysterio.

In the end, grappling-focus is best when used against spell-casters and spell-like abilities, or against mobile opponents who would otherwise get EVERYWHERE. It can also be helpful for immobilising and preventing attacks from simairly-sized opponents who can thus be pinned. However, you should try grappling a dragon once, just to prove that you can, and pinning a pit lord should be easy once you are on it's level (Remember, outsiders breathe, and can thus suffocate! Not to mentions the spell-likes the barstard will pack...).

[Callous]

Riddle of Steel

[RndmNumGen]

Riddle of Steel

What? You mean this?


Riddle of Steel (Su): Your sacred bond with metal gives you insight into its form and function. Once per day, you may spend 10 minutes meditating on the structure of a piece of unworked metal or ore to gain a +5 insight bonus on your next Craft check to make something using that metal.

I fail to see how that is relevant. Perhaps you would like to add a little more information in regards to what you mean?

[grarrrg]

Ah, but tripping is an attack, not a standard action; if you have 6 attacks, you can trip once and then follow up with 5 attacks(with the enemy now having -4 to their AC). Better yet, if you have the Greater Trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-trip-combat---final) feat, when you trip him you get to make an Attack of Opportunity(as do all your allies who threaten him), follow up with 5 attacks, an if he's still alive, make another attack when he gets up on his next turn - all of these attacks with -4 to the target's AC.

You're getting there.
*internet rummaging > repost*
A Flowing Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/flowing-monk) with some Rogue levels (Sneak Attack), that focuses on Tripping, and has the Imp. Trip line of feats and Vicious Stomp (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vicious-stomp-combat).
As part of a Flurry they can replace an Unarmed Strike with a Trip, so the first attack is a trip, if successful they get TWO AoO's against the victim, 1 from Greater Trip, another from Vicious Stomp, if EITHER of them is successful, the victim must make a REF save or be considered Flat-Footed. Continue Flurry-ing. Victim WILL be prone, and either eats the -4 attack/AC penalty for being prone, or attempts to stand up. If they stand up they eat ANOTHER AoO.
Rinse and repeat.

[Crasical]

Riddle of Steel


What? You mean this?
I fail to see how that is relevant. Perhaps you would like to add a little more information in regards to what you mean?

Riddle of Steel is another game system that I recall being described as having a more 'gritty realism' feel than Pathfinder or DnD, but with a more complex or detailed grappling system, which I assume Callous believes is more suited to Fitch3k's use than pathfinder.

[RndmNumGen]

Riddle of Steel is another game system that I recall being described as having a more 'gritty realism' feel than Pathfinder or DnD, but with a more complex or detailed grappling system, which I assume Callous believes is more suited to Fitch3k's use than pathfinder.

Ah, okay. Thanks.