Dragonfire Adept tier?

[WonderfulAngus]

???????????????????

[darksolitaire]

My guess is 4th. It's most comparable to Warlock, starting as bit stronger chassis, but doesn't get as much splat support, so cannot really be optimized further.

At least it's better off then Dragon Shaman.

[Urpriest]

It's generally thought of as somewhere in the 3-4 range, depending on how useful its invocations are viewed as being.

[Morph Bark]

If you are allowed to take Metabreath feats and use them on your breath weapon, you get a decent bump in power. Most say you can do that if you are a Dragonborn (saying that you can apply the metabreath feats even to breath weapons that don't have a stated recharge time and that you only need one to qualify for taking the feat, not using it); personally, I count the DFA's breath weapon as effectively having a recharge time of 1 round (or 0 rounds, depending on if you have ways to get more standard actions per turn).

[ThiagoMartell]

If you are allowed to take Metabreath feats and use them on your breath weapon, you get a decent bump in power. Most say you can do that if you are a Dragonborn (saying that you can apply the metabreath feats even to breath weapons that don't have a stated recharge time and that you only need one to qualify for taking the feat, not using it); personally, I count the DFA's breath weapon as effectively having a recharge time of 1 round (or 0 rounds, depending on if you have ways to get more standard actions per turn).

If this trick is allowed, DFA becomes t2, I think. If dealing damage to the whole world at once for how long you want is not a gamebreaker I don't know what is.

[TheGeckoKing]

If this trick is allowed, DFA becomes t2, I think. If dealing damage to the whole world at once for how long you want is not a gamebreaker I don't know what is.

And with the Power Surge feat (Dragon #313), you can tack on the 1 round recharge time you need for a 50% increase in duration. It's a 2-for-1 special!

[Answerer]

What are you using to do that?

Anyway, a single game-breaking trick doesn't really make a T2. It's more if you have simple, mechanical "Win" buttons at most if not all levels. Otherwise the Truenamer would be T2 or T1, since Conjunctive Gate is just patently absurd.

The DfA is pretty definitely better than the Warlock, but not better than, say, a martial adept. It's pretty solid high-T4/low-T3.

[Zombulian]

You can also use the Power Surge feat if you don't want to be Dragonborn.

Edit: freakin swordsages man

[Tvtyrant]

I think it's pretty definition tier 4; it's really good at one thing, and other than that it is in the meh range. It's one thing is AoE nuking, and everything else is almost trivial.

[LordBlades]

I think it's pretty definition tier 4; it's really good at one thing, and other than that it is in the meh range. It's one thing is AoE nuking, and everything else is almost trivial.

It's also quite a good diplomancer, especially if going undead, which switces your breath weapon DC to Cah, makung you SAD. I have one in my current group (spellscale necropolitan) and he's doing +22 Diplomacy at level 4

[Lateral]

Low three, high four. It's actually not the best at nuking, not by a long shot. (Well, at least not until level 15.) It's best at battlefield control. The breath weapon's damage scales pretty weakly, but the things that make it an effective combat tactic are the breath effects and Entangling Exhalation. At really low levels, Entangling Exhalation is almost impossible to beat, and it remains handy through the higher levels. By the time that's slowing down, though, your breath effects are hitting their stride- at 5th level, you get Slow Breath, which is incredible. It stops being quite so great once Slow Breath stops being so insane, but when you reach your 15th level breaths... well, let's just say that you can quit with the battlefield control, because now you can nuke. Fivefold Breath of Tiamat can pump out some truly ridiculous damage; too bad you have to be non-good to use it and that has some sizable backlash damage. Then again, by 15th level backlash damage should be small beans.

And along with this, you have a good number of useful utility invocations- Endure Exposure is the indispensable one, because it eliminates all friendly fire forever, Humanoid Shape is... well, it's an Alternate Form effect, so of course it's awesome, and Baleful Geas either sucks or is RIDICULOUS depending on how you read it. And then, all the other useful ones are Beguiling Influence, Draconic Knowledge, Magic Insight, Charm, Draconic Flight, Frightful Presence, Voidsense, Voracious Dispelling, Walk Unseen, Chilling Fog, Draconic Toughness, Terrifying Roar, Greater Draconic Flight, and Energy Immunity. So... yeah, plenty of versatility there. I'd call it a tier 3, just for all you can do with those toys, but it's definitely right on the line.


If this trick is allowed, DFA becomes t2, I think. If dealing damage to the whole world at once for how long you want is not a gamebreaker I don't know what is.
Yeah... that's not so much Tier 2 material as 'abuse of metabreath stacking.' It has nothing to do with the class other than that it happens to have a breath weapon. Besides, while you can nuke the whole planet for years, you wouldn't be able to use your breath weapon again for an absurd length of time. We're talking years.

...Think about it this way: That's like saying Commoners are tier 2, because with the Chicken Infested flaw and a spell component pouch they can destroy the world in an infinite wave of chickens.

[Venusaur]

I'd say it is tier 3. Humanoid shape, entangling exhalation, the ability to only need CON, and slow breath are all strong. The DFA is also really good if your DM insists on using crit fails. You should never have to make an attack roll.

[Thrawn183]

Don't forget that a DFA doesn't need to make any attack rolls. Just stick the guy in full plate, max Con like it's nobody's business and take Endurance/Steadfast Determination.

Now you've got a tank with great AC, the most HP of any character that's still relevant, and Fort/Will saves that are out the wazoo.

This style may be a bit repetitive in terms of play style, but it is very, very good at what it does.

[Big Fau]

If this trick is allowed, DFA becomes t2, I think. If dealing damage to the whole world at once for how long you want is not a gamebreaker I don't know what is.

Enlarge Breath abuse falls well into theoretical optimization territory, and isn't even that effective because LoE can be blocked by the natural geography (such as the natural curve of the planet you are standing on). It takes so much stupidity to allow that to work that it really doesn't affect the Tier of the class at all.

Also, anything that survives (which there will be a lot of, seeing as the damage isn't that great without the Fivefold Breath of Tiamat) will kill you in under a month.

[hex0]

I'm under the assumption that DFA doesn't qualify for Metabreath feats. :smallfurious:

[Lateral]

I'm under the assumption that DFA doesn't qualify for Metabreath feats. :smallfurious:

Yes, that's a reasonable assumption.
...What's with the furious smiley?

[hex0]

Yes, that's a reasonable assumption.
...What's with the furious smiley?

Because I'd rather give a leg up to Dragon Shaman than Dragon Adept! :smallcool:

[Lateral]

Because I'd rather give a leg up to Dragon Shaman than Dragon Adept! :smallcool:

Sure... except that doesn't change the fact that the smiley was incongruent with the thing you actually said. :smallconfused:

[hex0]

Sure... except that doesn't change the fact that the smiley was incongruent with the thing you actually said. :smallconfused:

I think it was neccesary because so many assume that DFA qualifies for Metabreath. :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

Because I'd rather give a leg up to Dragon Shaman than Dragon Adept! :smallcool:

There are a number of fixes which simply combine the two, since they are both pretty weak as is. Then you can get the best of both worlds!

[Tokiko Mima]

One of my favorite Dragonborn DFA Meta-breath abuses uses Maximize Breath and Lingering Breath to secure a campsite for the night. Choose a tight corner, well suited to the exact shape of your breath weapon. Prepare your party members (well, the ones you like) with the Endure Exposure invocation. Now, prior to sleep breath (use your racial breath) all over your campsite and apply Maximize and Lingering... but Lingering for 4200 rounds.

You now have 7 hours of sleep in a comfortable cloud of energy that will admit no one except your teammates without maiming them instantly and every round they stay. There is a 7 hour refractory period on your breath weapon after you wake up, but that's why you used your racial breath.

[Empedocles]

I think general consensus is high tier 4 without metabreath, high tier 3 with metabreath.

[Zombulian]

I think it was neccesary because so many assume that DFA qualifies for Metabreath. :smallwink:

No one was assuming anything...:smallconfused: Any time someone brought up Metabreath it was quickly followed up with tricks as to how to qualify for it.

[Deophaun]

Enlarge Breath abuse falls well into theoretical optimization territory, and isn't even that effective because LoE can be blocked by the natural geography (such as the natural curve of the planet you are standing on).
Stand? DFAs fly.

[Lateral]

I think general consensus is high tier 4 without metabreath, high tier 3 with metabreath.

Noooo. The metabreath makes its primary trick- the breath weapon- more powerful. It's nice, but it doesn't add enough in the way of versatility to justify a tier bump.

[Tokiko Mima]

Stand? DFAs fly.

Demonstation: Bahamut teaches you the proper position to use uber-Enlarged Meta-Breath from. (www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiGzZI_AuPY)

Yay dragons!

[ThiagoMartell]

Noooo. The metabreath makes its primary trick- the breath weapon- more powerful. It's nice, but it doesn't add enough in the way of versatility to justify a tier bump.

Well, a single gamebreaking trick is what gets you from tier 3 to tier 2.

[Suddo]

I actually really want to play one. They seem Tier 3 to me, with entangling exhaust which if memory serves correct is allowed RAW, I mean its good in combat it's invocations are pretty cool, its skill list isn't bad. I thought that would make it Tier 3.

[ThiagoMartell]

I actually really want to play one. They seem Tier 3 to me, with entangling exhaust which if memory serves correct is allowed RAW, I mean its good in combat it's invocations are pretty cool, its skill list isn't bad. I thought that would make it Tier 3.

Entangling Exhalation is not a metabreath, so it's allowed.

[Morph Bark]

If this trick is allowed, DFA becomes t2, I think. If dealing damage to the whole world at once for how long you want is not a gamebreaker I don't know what is.

Not any more than anything else with a breath weapon. Besides, it's very debateable whether you can apply the same metabreath effect to a breath weapon more than once. There are several metabreath feats that specify they can be, like Clinging Breath and Lingering Breath, but I doubt you could use Enlarge Breath (or was it Widen Breath?) up 'til infinity. And even if you could, a DFA would have to wait infinite rounds due to the recharge times increases from metabreath effects.

[Answerer]

Well, a single gamebreaking trick is what gets you from tier 3 to tier 2.
No, it isn't.

[Axier]

Dragonfire Adept's do have a recharge time, of zero rounds!

But no, seriously, giving DFA metabreath feats is far from gamebreaking.

As for the Tier even without Metabreath, they have more versitility than most of the other Tier 4s, so I would think that it would be more like Tier 3, with optimization to tier 2.

[Tokiko Mima]

Not any more than anything else with a breath weapon. Besides, it's very debateable whether you can apply the same metabreath effect to a breath weapon more than once. There are several metabreath feats that specify they can be, like Clinging Breath and Lingering Breath, but I doubt you could use Enlarge Breath (or was it Widen Breath?) up 'til infinity. And even if you could, a DFA would have to wait infinite rounds due to the recharge times increases from metabreath effects.

Actually, Enlarge Breath is cited on page 66 of Draconomicon as an example of a meta-breath that can be stacked on itself as many arbitrary times as you like. It mentions a young white dragon applying Enlarge Breath twice to increase a 40 ft. cone to an 80 ft. cone.

Now, the math on a worldwide breath weapon is a little harsh. Assuming an earth shaped/sized planet (7926.41 miles diameter at the equator, it's widest point) a dragon or DFA would need to fly to an altitude of 10,851 and a half miles above the pole to be far enough to where a 30 degree wide cone would hit everything in a single hemisphere. That's only about a twentieth the way to the moon, though.

Once there, they would have to apply the effect Enlarge Breath feat many times. Assuming a tenth level or greater DFA (cone of 30 ft) the result would make their breath weapon unusable for 593 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours 37 minutes. So, this is the kind of thing you'd only want to do before you retire. But it is possible! :smallwink:

[darksolitaire]

^ Will use that in campaign somehow. Good stuff :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Actually, Enlarge Breath is cited on page 66 of Draconomicon as an example of a meta-breath that can be stacked on itself as many arbitrary times as you like. It mentions a young white dragon applying Enlarge Breath twice to increase a 40 ft. cone to an 80 ft. cone.

Now, the math on a worldwide breath weapon is a little harsh. Assuming an earth shaped/sized planet (7926.41 miles diameter at the equator, it's widest point) a dragon or DFA would need to fly to an altitude of 10,851 and a half miles above the pole to be far enough to where a 30 degree wide cone would hit everything in a single hemisphere. That's only about a twentieth the way to the moon, though.

Once there, they would have to apply the effect Enlarge Breath feat many times. Assuming a tenth level or greater DFA (cone of 30 ft) the result would make their breath weapon unusable for 593 years 11 months 5 days 15 hours 37 minutes. So, this is the kind of thing you'd only want to do before you retire. But it is possible! :smallwink:

Which is why the trick shouldn't affect the class' Tier: It's too vindictive towards the DM, and it is only a one-shot effect. You aren't going to give a repeat performance, as the character will be dead before the recharge ever happens and you missed a huge portion of the planet (basically anything underground or indoors or resistant to the energy type).

It is little more than a thought exercise not meant to be used at all. We don't alter the Tier of the Paladin because of Supermount because that trick really is not feasible in a serious campaign, nor do we alter the Tier of the Beguiler because it can get access to the Shadow Miracle trick (well, a somewhat lesser version anyway).


Theoretical optimization does not affect the Tier of a class, especially when that is the only trick the class has.

[Tokiko Mima]

^ Will use that in campaign somehow. Good stuff :smallbiggrin:

Great! Remember you can juice that up a bit, too. At 15th level DFA's get Force Breath, and you can use Shape Breath to turn that into a cone that has no elemental type, and damage objects, and even incorporeal things.

Also, if you're going to be a jerk to an entire hemisphere, why not do it with a gusto? 100 years extra on the recharge can get you 50 years of Lingering damage.. nothing gets to go outside for all that time. :smallamused:

[ThiagoMartell]

No, it isn't.
You must be very familiar with the discussions on how the tier system was established to make such a concise statement with such certainty.
But allow me to ask - why does the Binder become T2 with online vestiges?
Or are you familiar with the years long debate about the d2 crusader making a crusader t2 or not (final consensus was that it doesn't, since it depends on a dip or outside help)? Or maybe you're familiar with the wilder tier debate and how the class is either t4 or t2 (but not t3) because of action economy abuse? Have you got any idea of how many people started opposing the idea of the tier system once WRT and IHS chesse were disconsidered from the debate?
I'm guessing you know all that, because otherwise you couldn't have made such a bold statement, could you?

[Morph Bark]

^ Will use that in campaign somehow. Good stuff :smallbiggrin:

I actually have. My pirate campaign world was created by two dragons doing this to both sides of the planets, one with fire, one with cold. Now the world is flat as a pancake while frozen on one side and deserted on the other.

[TheGeckoKing]

You must be very familiar with the discussions on how the tier system was established to make such a concise statement with such certainty.
But allow me to ask - why does the Binder become T2 with online vestiges?
Or are you familiar with the years long debate about the d2 crusader making a crusader t2 or not (final consensus was that it doesn't, since it depends on a dip or outside help)? Or maybe you're familiar with the wilder tier debate and how the class is either t4 or t2 (but not t3) because of action economy abuse? Have you got any idea of how many people started opposing the idea of the tier system once WRT and IHS chesse were disconsidered from the debate?
I'm guessing you know all that, because otherwise you couldn't have made such a bold statement, could you?

Are you saying Pun-Pun alone means Paladins are T2?

[Lateral]

You must be very familiar with the discussions on how the tier system was established to make such a concise statement with such certainty.
But allow me to ask - why does the Binder become T2 with online vestiges?
Or are you familiar with the years long debate about the d2 crusader making a crusader t2 or not (final consensus was that it doesn't, since it depends on a dip or outside help)? Or maybe you're familiar with the wilder tier debate and how the class is either t4 or t2 (but not t3) because of action economy abuse? Have you got any idea of how many people started opposing the idea of the tier system once WRT and IHS chesse were disconsidered from the debate?
I'm guessing you know all that, because otherwise you couldn't have made such a bold statement, could you?
...You do realize that you're going off on a tangent, don't you?

You do realize that, of the examples given, one is irrelevant, and another actually supports our conclusion that metabreath doesn't make it tier 2, don't you?

You can understand the difference between Zceryll making Binder tier 2 because it gives you very powerful abilities like level-appropriate Summon Monsters every five rounds and saying that Metabreath makes DFA tier 2 because Enlarge Breath lets you nuke the planet once in your entire career, can't you?

You don't think that Commoners are tier 2 because, with a spell component pouch and Chicken-Infested, they can destroy the world in a flood of chickens at level 1, do you?


I actually have. My pirate campaign world was created by two dragons doing this to both sides of the planets, one with fire, one with cold. Now the world is flat as a pancake while frozen on one side and deserted on the other.
I don't think dragonbreath creates any outward pressure (unless you had it also apply Hurricane Breath, which would be sweet), and it's kind of an instantaneous effect, but that's... that's really cool.

[olentu]

...You do realize that you're going off on a tangent, don't you?

You do realize that, of the examples given, one is irrelevant, and another actually supports our conclusion that metabreath doesn't make it tier 2, don't you?

You can understand the difference between Zceryll making Binder tier 2 because it gives you very powerful abilities like level-appropriate Summon Monsters every five rounds and saying that Metabreath makes DFA tier 2 because Enlarge Breath lets you nuke the planet once in your entire career, can't you?

You don't think that Commoners are tier 2 because, with a spell component pouch and Chicken-Infested, they can destroy the world in a flood of chickens at level 1, do you?

Actually I think a dragonborn commoner might also be able to zap a planet with metabreath abuse.

[Lateral]

Actually I think a dragonborn commoner might also be able to zap a planet with metabreath abuse.

With Shape Breath also applied, easily. Heck, a Dragonborn Anything-With-Decent-Class-Features 1 with those feats would be stronger than a DFA with them because, hey, after he nukes the planet he can at least still use his primary class features. As a DFA, all you have left is your invocations. Your single, piddling least invocation, if you're doing this at 1st level somehow.

[darksolitaire]

Great! Remember you can juice that up a bit, too. At 15th level DFA's get Force Breath, and you can use Shape Breath to turn that into a cone that has no elemental type, and damage objects, and even incorporeal things.

Also, if you're going to be a jerk to an entire hemisphere, why not do it with a gusto? 100 years extra on the recharge can get you 50 years of Lingering damage.. nothing gets to go outside for all that time. :smallamused:

Sure, and all this is done with racial breath weapon, meaning that DFA's normal breath weapon is still usable.:smallamused: As a was listening to Skyrim's theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5urR7Hwp0Vo) while reading this, I'm somehow imagining Dragon Born Dragonfire Adept using breath weapon as shouts, and reserving racial breath weapon for some suitably epic challenge.:smallbiggrin: As for actually using it in game instead of just backround, hmm...




I actually have. My pirate campaign world was created by two dragons doing this to both sides of the planets, one with fire, one with cold. Now the world is flat as a pancake while frozen on one side and deserted on the other.

Somehow, this reminds me of certain other pirate world (http://images.wikia.com/onepiece/images/3/38/Punk_Hazard_The_Island.jpg). I assume that guy copied you? :smalltongue:

[Morph Bark]

I don't think dragonbreath creates any outward pressure (unless you had it also apply Hurricane Breath, which would be sweet), and it's kind of an instantaneous effect, but that's... that's really cool.

There were some other things involved, but yes. Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

It's also very literally cool.


Somehow, this reminds me of certain other pirate world (http://images.wikia.com/onepiece/images/3/38/Punk_Hazard_The_Island.jpg). I assume that guy copied you? :smalltongue:

The One Piece world is round. I actually got the idea of a flat world with one cold side and one hot side from both the Medieval idea that the world was flat and solar-stationary planets (ones that have one side always facing the sun). The desert-side does not face the sun 24/7, but it does face the sun more often (say, 66% of the time). One can travel from one side to the other either through tunnels through the Earth or by falling off the edge like in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End.

I keep thinking I should post this world...

[Answerer]

the Medieval idea that the world was flat
No one who was educated (not that many were), nor anyone who lived near the ocean, believed this even in medieval times. I don't know how widespread the belief was among inland peasantry, mostly because no one at the time cared what they did or didn't believe about the shape of the world, but suffice to say that the world was well beyond the "flat Earth" theory by medieval times. Greek philosophers had even come up with remarkably good estimates for the Earth's circumference.

Neither Columbus, nor anyone he was arguing with, for example, would have thought the Earth was flat or that anyone else seriously believed this. The argument was about the size of the Earth – Columbus thought it was much smaller than they did. As it turns out, the figure they were using was quite accurate, and Columbus was very much wrong – but it turns out the Americas were there to catch him.

Just for your information.

[ThiagoMartell]

Are you saying Pun-Pun alone means Paladins are T2?
Pun-Pun is not Paladin only and the tier system ignores wealth by level, so the Pazuzu ascension Pun-Pun doesn't fit in it anwyay.


...You do realize that you're going off on a tangent, don't you?
Now that you mentioned it, I do.

You do realize that, of the examples given, one is irrelevant, and another actually supports our conclusion that metabreath doesn't make it tier 2, don't you?
You misunderstand. I'm trying to build a point around DFA being T2 with metabreath feats. I'm saying it is debatable and you can't simply say "no it is not" in such a case.


You can understand the difference between Zceryll making Binder tier 2 because it gives you very powerful abilities like level-appropriate Summon Monsters every five rounds and saying that Metabreath makes DFA tier 2 because Enlarge Breath lets you nuke the planet once in your entire career, can't you?
The nuke is just a single aplication of metabreath feat stacking in a DFA. Stack lingering breath onto itself for a minute, go invisible, win a encounter. Use enlarge breath for actual greater range, efectively sniping with area effects.
I can understand the difference and I think you do too. So please don't be patronizing towards me, because I'm not being patronizing towards you.


You don't think that Commoners are tier 2 because, with a spell component pouch and Chicken-Infested, they can destroy the world in a flood of chickens at level 1, do you?
:smallsigh:
The tier system does not consider Dragon Magazine material and also does not consider applying real world physics to D&D.

[Morph Bark]

No one who was educated (not that many were), nor anyone who lived near the ocean, believed this even in medieval times. I don't know how widespread the belief was among inland peasantry, mostly because no one at the time cared what they did or didn't believe about the shape of the world, but suffice to say that the world was well beyond the "flat Earth" theory by medieval times. Greek philosophers had even come up with remarkably good estimates for the Earth's circumference.

Neither Columbus, nor anyone he was arguing with, for example, would have thought the Earth was flat or that anyone else seriously believed this. The argument was about the size of the Earth – Columbus thought it was much smaller than they did. As it turns out, the figure they were using was quite accurate, and Columbus was very much wrong – but it turns out the Americas were there to catch him.

Just for your information.

That first part here is very important. A lot of people indeed weren't educated and still thought this, even people living close to the sea. I admit that I thought that the church didn't accept the Earth being spherical until the 18th century, due to the loss of nearly all Ancient Greek writings (including Eratosthenes, who made that really good estimation of the Earth's circumference). In China and Japan the belief persisted until the 17th century though.


Having learned about Power Surge now thanks to this thread, I kind of want to replace the dragons in the creation myth with Dragonfire Adepts. :smallcool:

[Suddo]

I'm confused why they aren't Tier 3, I mean they are decent in combat (flying around, dealing damage with fire breath, slowing with entangling); they have other options beyond that, they are have some cha usually and have social skills as class skills; They have some pretty unique abilities (unlimited identify); And some generally useful ones (unlimited flight and see invisible). They do pretty much all the jobs (I think they might fail in the sneak department). I mean if the encounter doesn't include ranged attacks or the ranged attacks are weak a Dragonfire Adept using entangling breath can tear through a group of enemies.
Maybe I haven't played them enough but they seem solid Tier 3 to me.

If we want to compare them to Warlocks their Breath, versus Eldritch Blast, does more than just damage (entangling breath) it always does damage (outside of evasion). Their Invocations are considered better than Warlock's. They just seem to be an upgrade (although very different) of a warlock.

[Morph Bark]

No one who was educated (not that many were), nor anyone who lived near the ocean, believed this even in medieval times. I don't know how widespread the belief was among inland peasantry, mostly because no one at the time cared what they did or didn't believe about the shape of the world, but suffice to say that the world was well beyond the "flat Earth" theory by medieval times. Greek philosophers had even come up with remarkably good estimates for the Earth's circumference.

Neither Columbus, nor anyone he was arguing with, for example, would have thought the Earth was flat or that anyone else seriously believed this. The argument was about the size of the Earth – Columbus thought it was much smaller than they did. As it turns out, the figure they were using was quite accurate, and Columbus was very much wrong – but it turns out the Americas were there to catch him.

Just for your information.

That first part here is very important. A lot of people indeed weren't educated and still thought this, even people living close to the sea. I admit that I thought that the church didn't accept the Earth being spherical until the 18th century, due to the loss of nearly all Ancient Greek writings (including Eratosthenes, who made that really good estimation of the Earth's circumference). In China and Japan the belief persisted until the 17th century though.


Having learned about Power Surge now thanks to this thread, I kind of want to replace the dragons in the creation myth with Dragonfire Adepts. :smallcool:

[Answerer]

That first part here is very important. A lot of people indeed weren't educated and still thought this, even people living close to the sea. I admit that I thought that the church didn't accept the Earth being spherical until the 18th century, due to the loss of nearly all Ancient Greek writings (including Eratosthenes, who made that really good estimation of the Earth's circumference). In China and Japan the belief persisted until the 17th century though.
Everything I have found suggests that belief in a spherical earth was "widespread" in medieval Europe.

Yes, China was much later to understanding the sphericity of the Earth.

[ThiagoMartell]

Having learned about Power Surge now thanks to this thread, I kind of want to replace the dragons in the creation myth with Dragonfire Adepts. :smallcool:

Whether Power Surge qualifies or not a DFA for metabreath feats was the subject of many flamewars, akin to Hellfire/Strongheart Vest. Proceed with care. :smalltongue:

[Draz74]

They have some pretty unique abilities (unlimited identify);

While I personally agree with you that they should be considered Tier 3 -- I mean, Humanoid Shape, alone, makes them way more flexible than a Warlock -- the unlimited-Identify trick is, strictly speaking, no longer unique. It's duplicable by a magic item, the Artificer's Monocle from MIC. A skill trick also partially duplicates it.

[ThiagoMartell]

While I personally agree with you that they should be considered Tier 3 -- I mean, Humanoid Shape, alone, makes them way more flexible than a Warlock -- the unlimited-Identify trick is, strictly speaking, no longer unique. It's duplicable by a magic item, the Artificer's Monocle from MIC. A skill trick also partially duplicates it.

Breath effects being separate from invocations also helps them considerably.

[Answerer]

Breath effects being separate from invocations also helps them considerably.
Considering that they get fewer invocations known, doesn't that work out to Wizards just forcing you to get breath effects where the Warlock can choose whether or not to get essences and shapes? I mean, the effects are often way better so that's still probably a good deal, just curious if there's something I'm missing on this point.

[Azernak0]

I always put them low Tier 3.

Like a Beguiler (someone I think most people would put as a high, high Tier 3) DFA's have amazing crowd control abilities and have a couple of ways to buff their allies. While not as good as a Beguiler in terms of raw power, DFA's don't just crap themselves when they see stuff with True Seeing + Mindblank.

Basically, a DFA is less powerful than a Beguiler but is never as gimped as one if the fight is unfavorable. Metabreath options are available but usually just Slow Breath or Entangling Exhalation is enough to shut down enemies. The best thing about DFA's is that Friendly Fire is.

[Tokiko Mima]

To be fair, there's a couple other powerful aspects most overlook with DFA. Take Baleful Geas, for example. Looks like it sucks, right? Just a Geas/Quest spell-like variant.. until you think about it for a minute.

Normally that's a ten minute casting time no-save enchantment spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm), however as a DFA invocation it's only a standard action to cast. Combine that with the telepathy most will pick up as a matter of course from the Mindbender + Mindsight PrC combo, and you'll quickly be converting every living enemy creature into your service. This is why Mind Blank is so popular, I think. :smallcool:

[ThiagoMartell]

Considering that they get fewer invocations known, doesn't that work out to Wizards just forcing you to get breath effects where the Warlock can choose whether or not to get essences and shapes? I mean, the effects are often way better so that's still probably a good deal, just curious if there's something I'm missing on this point.
DFAs get 8 invocations plus 6 breath effects while warlocks only get 12 invocations and must choose their essences and shapes from among them, so I'd say no.


To be fair, there's a couple other powerful aspects most overlook with DFA. Take Baleful Geas, for example. Looks like it sucks, right? Just a Geas/Quest spell-like variant.. until you think about it for a minute.

Normally that's a ten minute casting time no-save enchantment spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm), however as a DFA invocation it's only a standard action to cast. Combine that with the telepathy most will pick up as a matter of course from the Mindbender + Mindsight PrC combo, and you'll quickly be converting every living enemy creature into your service. This is why Mind Blank is so popular, I think. :smallcool:
That's... debatable.

A dragonfire adept's invocations are spell-like abilities: using an invocation is therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Looks like the writer thought all spell-like abilities were standard actions.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.
I think RAW is clear that it's a standard action, but intent is kinda whacky here. I've always played with invocations as standard actions, though.

[Tokiko Mima]

DFAs get 8 invocations plus 6 breath effects while warlocks only get 12 invocations and must choose their essences and shapes from among them, so I'd say no.


That's... debatable.

Looks like the writer thought all spell-like abilities were standard actions.

I think RAW is clear that it's a standard action, but intent is kinda whacky here. I've always played with invocations as standard actions, though.

Very true, however that has later been clarified in the Rules Compendium.


Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted. If the spell like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than one standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

So, no debate! :smallwink:

[Duke of URL]

I think most of the posters in this thread are missing the point. It's not the raw power of a class that alone defines its tier, it's the class' versatility as well.


Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

By these definitions, a DFA is Tier 3. It does one thing quite well - crowd control (and nuking at high levels), and is capable of doing other things both in and out of combat reasonably well. A properly-built DFA is never useless, which is the main difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4.

And while skill points are limited enough, you can typically choose one of three paths, all of which are massively useful:

1) Social skills, diplomancer style (great if using CHA-save invocations as well)
2) Knowledge skills, pair with Draconic Knowledge invocation (Extra Invocation, 6th level feat) and the Collector of Stories Skill trick. You can now ID pretty much anything you run across that you have any prayer of fighting.
3) UMD (with enough skill points, this folds into #1)

The whole debate on metabreath doesn't change the DFA's tier level -- the raw power increase isn't enough to make it Tier 2 (which has the same raw power as Tier 1, but less versatility). Personally, I'd allow metabreath feats, although I've never taken them in any games I've played in as a DFA, even if they were allowed.

There are two "must" invocations: Endure Exposure to protect your allies and Humanoid Shape (I call shenanigans on the debate over whether you lose your breath weapon in an alternate form -- it's not a racial feature, but rather a class ability, so you retain it and can use it as long as you can actually breathe in the alternate form). I strongly recommend using Extra Invocation at 6th for either Beguiling Influence or Draconic Knowledge, depending on which skill path you're following.

[ThiagoMartell]

Very true, however that has later been clarified in the Rules Compendium.



So, no debate! :smallwink:

Wow, I never noticed that. Good catch.

[Lateral]

I strongly recommend using Extra Invocation at 6th for either Beguiling Influence or Draconic Knowledge, depending on which skill path you're following.

You know that you get two lesser invocations before you even get access to least invocations, right? You can take Endure Exposure and one of those two, although you miss out on the tastiness that is Magic Insight.

[Duke of URL]

You know that you get two lesser invocations before you even get access to least invocations, right? You can take Endure Exposure and one of those two, although you miss out on the tastiness that is Magic Insight.

I assume that Endure Exposure and Magical Insight are the obvious choices for the first two invocations, yes. Besides, at roughly 6th level is when things like diplomacy or knowledge specializations start paying off, and the big boosts to them from the specific extra invocation can make a huge difference at that point.

It makes DFA 6 such a tasty level, too... boosts to all three saves, +1 DC on your breath weapon, Humanoid Shape invocation, and either a +6 to Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate or +5 to all Knowledge/Spellcraft (and can use untrained) and (with a 2 skill point investment) another +5 on Knowledge to ID creatures.

I'm currently in a game playing a DFA 5 and I'm just salivating at getting those last few hundred XP I need to hit level 6...

[eggs]

1) Social skills, diplomancer style (great if using CHA-save invocations as well)
2) Knowledge skills, pair with Draconic Knowledge invocation (Extra Invocation, 6th level feat) and the Collector of Stories Skill trick. You can now ID pretty much anything you run across that you have any prayer of fighting.
3) UMD (with enough skill points, this folds into #1)
I don't want to dig up the years of Factotum/Rogue tier flamewars, but this is the same argument that goes for Rogue tier placement. Without weighing in on either side it's safe to say that those skills aren't enough to make a clear or indisputable case for T3, unless the class makes a meaningful and unique contribution to their use (bonuses don't count).

[Duke of URL]

I don't want to dig up the years of Factotum/Rogue tier flamewars, but this is the same argument that goes for Rogue tier placement. Without weighing in on either side it's safe to say that those skills aren't enough to make a clear or indisputable case for T3, unless the class makes a meaningful and unique contribution to their use (bonuses don't count).

DFA is a solid tier 3 even without considering skills. The main difference between tier 3 and tier 4 is that a tier 3 should never be completely useless, and a reasonably-built DFA should always be able to contribute something in a CR-appropriate situation.

[Annos]

recover breath metabreath feat gets rid of one rounds worth of waiting at the cost of one feat, can be a gamechanger... mabey.:smalltongue:

[Zaq]

While I personally agree with you that they should be considered Tier 3 -- I mean, Humanoid Shape, alone, makes them way more flexible than a Warlock -- the unlimited-Identify trick is, strictly speaking, no longer unique. It's duplicable by a magic item, the Artificer's Monocle from MIC. A skill trick also partially duplicates it.

As does an utterance! (Sorry, contractual obligation.)

Anyway, yeah, they're pretty solidly T3, in my experience. Never useless, rarely overpowered, and with several viable routes of optimization? That's pretty textbook T3.

Also, people who stick them in plate are doing it wrong. As an area-based character (whether you like blasting or BfC), you CANNOT afford to tank your initiative. You just can't. Whether you want to burn them all while they're nice and clumped, or whether you want to freeze them in place before they can reach Team Hero, you NEED to go before your foes. Just FYI.