Greatclubs Are Grrreeaatttt!!!

[jackofalllutes]

Most people don't know what awesome potential the greatclub possesses. Did you know that at level 2, without any assistance, you can do 6d8 dam with a greatclub? I know, you're like, "Hey, that's the dam of a Colossal greatclub!" :smallmad: Well it is, and it is the dam of an effectively colossal greatclub as well. :smallwink: Now this "effectively" colossal greatclub can be achieved in a very simple manner:

Step 1: Be a human.
Step 2: Take a level in Druid and both the monkey grip feat and the proficiency with martial weapons feat. Start off with a large greatclub! :smallbiggrin:
Step 3: Take a level in Sor/Wiz and learn the enlarge person spell.
Step 4: Cast both shillelagh and enlarge person on yourself.
Step 5: Bash baddies with a huge greatclub that is effectively a +1 colossal greatclub!!! Enjoy!!!

If anyone wants to spoil my fun with some RULE go ahead make my day...just sleep tight knowing I patrol the forests with the greatest club you've ever seen.

[Saintheart]

...you take a level in druid and don't take Greenbound Summoning?

[Deophaun]

A club is a simple one handed weapon.

A greatclub is a martial two handed melee weapon.

Shillelagh works on one of these, and not on the other. :P

[Jeraa]

A club is a simple one handed weapon.

A greatclub is a martial two handed melee weapon.

Shillelagh works on one of these, and not on the other. :P

That is correct. A club is a specific weapon, and Shillelagh only works on a club (or quarterstaff). A greatclub is not a suitable target for the spell.

[ThiagoMartell]

Most people don't know what awesome potential the greatclub possesses. Did you know that at level 2, without any assistance, you can do 6d8 dam with a greatclub? I know, you're like, "Hey, that's the dam of a Colossal greatclub!" :smallmad: Well it is, and it is the dam of an effectively colossal greatclub as well. :smallwink: Now this "effectively" colossal greatclub can be achieved in a very simple manner:

Step 1: Be a human.
Step 2: Take a level in Druid and both the monkey grip feat and the proficiency with martial weapons feat. Start off with a large greatclub! :smallbiggrin:
Step 3: Take a level in Sor/Wiz and learn the enlarge person spell.
Step 4: Cast both shillelagh and enlarge person on yourself.
Step 5: Bash baddies with a huge greatclub that is effectively a +1 colossal greatclub!!! Enjoy!!!

If anyone wants to spoil my fun with some RULE go ahead make my day...just sleep tight knowing I patrol the forests with the greatest club you've ever seen.

As pointed out, shillelagh does not work with greatclubs. Club + shillelagh + (greater) mighty wallop (you even dipped Sorcerer already) hits almost as hard, though.

[Ashtagon]

Good luck carrying that around inside a 10-foot corridor.

[ThiagoMartell]

Medium -> Huge (Shillelagh, 2 size increases) -> Gargantuan (Enlarge Person) -> Colossal (Mighty Wallop... let's use it instead of Monkey Grip to avoid a rules discussion :smalltongue:)
That's only 4d6, though, since it does not work on a greatclub.
The funny thing is the size of the club only increases due to Enlarge Person.

[Togo]

If I'm playing a Druid or Master of Many forms, I carry around a gargantuan club. Turn into a huge creature, weild the club two handed (at the usual penalty for oversized weapons), and then cast sheillegh.

This means the club does 6d6 damage.

Now you can turn into a garantuan creature weilding a colossal club, in which case the damage after sheillegh would go up to 8d6. However some tables won't allow that, ruling that the cap on weapon size restricts the damage step increases you can get on a weapon. Also, carrying around a colossal club is actually quite difficult, since it's now too big for a bag of holding. You could use a sizing weapon, but since sizing weapons are magical, you can't cast sheillegh on them.

[Amphetryon]

Monkey Grip? Why, exactly, did you take Monkey Grip? (The other aspects of this concept have been addressed).

[Gavinfoxx]

Monkey Grip is COMPLETELY obsoleted by a single item, you know. There is a way to spend a modest amount of gold and end up with an ability that not only doesn't stack with monkey grip, but is strictly better than Monkey Grip.

Strongarm Bracers in Magic Item Compendium. Look them up.

Also, you need houserules to a.) make Greatclub a Simple Weapon, b.) Make it a Druid weapon, c.) make Shillelagh work on it.

If you are curious as to what weapon size increase options the rules actually support without cheating or houserules, look at this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777

[Morph Bark]

Good luck carrying that around inside a 10-foot corridor.

A Huge club, presuming a Medium one to be two feet long and one inch thick and each size increase doubling all dimensions, would be eight feet long and four inches thick. No problemo.

[Ashtagon]

A Huge club, presuming a Medium one to be two feet long and one inch thick and each size increase doubling all dimensions, would be eight feet long and four inches thick. No problemo.

A Medium club is in theory 2-4 feet long, averaging 3 feet. Even if carrying around weren't a problem, you're not swinging it around at all comfortably. You're either pulling your punches or smashing it against the wall with every attack that misses the enemy.

[Amphetryon]

A Medium club is in theory 2-4 feet long, averaging 3 feet. Even if carrying around weren't a problem, you're not swinging it around at all comfortably. You're either pulling your punches or smashing it against the wall with every attack that misses the enemy.

When making arguments based on real-world physics and dimensions in a fantasy RPG, please, think of the catgirls.

[ThiagoMartell]

If I'm playing a Druid or Master of Many forms, I carry around a gargantuan club. Turn into a huge creature, weild the club two handed (at the usual penalty for oversized weapons), and then cast sheillegh.

This means the club does 6d6 damage.

Now you can turn into a garantuan creature weilding a colossal club, in which case the damage after sheillegh would go up to 8d6. However some tables won't allow that, ruling that the cap on weapon size restricts the damage step increases you can get on a weapon. Also, carrying around a colossal club is actually quite difficult, since it's now too big for a bag of holding. You could use a sizing weapon, but since sizing weapons are magical, you can't cast sheillegh on them.

Doesn't a colossal club deal 4d6 damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)? :smallconfused:
1d6 (Medium) -> 1d8 (Large) -> 2d6 (Huge) -> 3d6 (Gargantuan) -> 4d6 (Colossal)
EDIT: Oh, I understand, you're using one of those Colossal++ things. Yeah, many tables wouldn't accept that.

[Invader]

A Hugsaffe club, presuming a Medium one to be two feet long and one inch thick and each size increase doubling all dimensions, would be eight feet long and four inches thick. No problemo.

A club is 1 inch thick and 2 feet long? I'd have to say a more average size is is going to be be 2 1/2 - 3 feet long and at least 4 inches around. That being said its still only going to be 10-12 feet long and 16 inches around. You're not going to be carrying it as a staff but more like a sword so Its conceivable that it would fit in most dungeons.

[Morph Bark]

A Medium club is in theory 2-4 feet long, averaging 3 feet. Even if carrying around weren't a problem, you're not swinging it around at all comfortably. You're either pulling your punches or smashing it against the wall with every attack that misses the enemy.

True, but then, as a Huge creature you'd prolly not be walking around in 10x10 ft corridors. :smalltongue:


A club is 1 inch thick and 2 feet long? I'd have to say a more average size is is going to be be 2 1/2 - 3 feet long and at least 4 inches around. That being said its still only going to be 10-12 feet long and 16 inches around. You're not going to be carrying it as a staff but more like a sword so Its conceivable that it would fit in most dungeons.

X inches around =/= X inches thick. A club of 1 inch thick would be 2*1*pi inches around, so actually thicker than the club you're suggesting.

But eh, I'm no expert on clubs. I prefer bars or movie theaters.

[Invader]

True, but then, as a Huge creature you'd prolly not be walking around in 10x10 ft corridors. :smalltongue:



X inches around =/= X inches thick. A club of 1 inch thick would be 2*1*pi inches around, so actually thicker than the club you're suggesting.

But eh, I'm no expert on clubs. I prefer bars or movie theaters.

That was more of a mistype. Instead of 4 inches around i meant 4 inches thick and 16 inches thick.

And as a point of reference a club 1 inch thick would just be 1*pi not 2*1*pi.

[Eonas]

Most people don't know what awesome potential the greatclub possesses. Did you know that at level 2, without any assistance, you can do 6d8 dam with a greatclub? I know, you're like, "Hey, that's the dam of a Colossal greatclub!" :smallmad: Well it is, and it is the dam of an effectively colossal greatclub as well. :smallwink: Now this "effectively" colossal greatclub can be achieved in a very simple manner:

Step 1: Be a human.
Step 2: Take a level in Druid and both the monkey grip feat and the proficiency with martial weapons feat. Start off with a large greatclub! :smallbiggrin:
Step 3: Take a level in Sor/Wiz and learn the enlarge person spell.
Step 4: Cast both shillelagh and enlarge person on yourself.
Step 5: Bash baddies with a huge greatclub that is effectively a +1 colossal greatclub!!! Enjoy!!!

If anyone wants to spoil my fun with some RULE go ahead make my day...just sleep tight knowing I patrol the forests with the greatest club you've ever seen.

This is pure awesome.

[ericgrau]

So 2/day, only when you get 2 buffing rounds, you get 4 more damage than raging barbarian 2 but compared to him you're at a -6 to hit plus 1 lost feat. And the -6 is whether or not you get buffing rounds, so the other half the time it hurts BAD. Yeah, that hurts more than it helps.

As detailed above you might get 11 or 18 more damage at a -8 to hit. Still not worth it. I mean it's a slightly better deal than power attacking for 8, but you'd never PA for 8 because you won't hit that often.

A safer trick is to hand a barbarian 50 gp oil of shillelagh and a 50 gp potion of enlarge person. When you get 2 buffing rounds he goes nuts, they don't make noise when he uses them so he's more likely to get 2 rounds instead of 1, and when he doesn't have 2 buffing rounds he's still just as good as before.

[Eonas]

So 2/day, only when you get 2 buffing rounds, you get 4 more damage than raging barbarian 2 but compared to him you're at a -6 to hit plus 1 lost feat. And the -6 is whether or not you get buffing rounds, so the other half the time it hurts BAD. Yeah, that hurts more than it helps.

As detailed above you might get 11 or 18 more damage at a -8 to hit. Still not worth it. I mean it's a slightly better deal than power attacking for 8, but you'd never PA for 8 because you won't hit that often.

A safer trick is to hand a barbarian 50 gp oil of shillelagh and a 50 gp potion of enlarge person. When you get 2 buffing rounds he goes nuts, they don't make noise when he uses them so he's more likely to get 2 rounds instead of 1, and when he doesn't have 2 buffing rounds he's still just as good as before.

I fail to see how a raging barbarian even with a base of +4 str and a greatsword can deal an average of 21 damage/attack. Rage pumps up your strength to +6, so that's a Str bonus of +9 to damage rolls. And a greatsword deals 7 damage average. 7+9=18 damage. And that's assuming the Druid/Wizard has a non-positive Str bonus.

I also don't see where the -6/-8 penalties to attack rolls come from.

[Boci]

I fail to see how a raging barbarian even with a base of +4 str and a greatsword can deal an average of 21 damage/attack. Rage pumps up your strength to +6, so that's a Str bonus of +9 to damage rolls. And a greatsword deals 7 damage average. 7+9=18 damage. And that's assuming the Druid/Wizard has a non-positive Str bonus.

I'm guessing they were factoring in the greatsword's superior crit range. That whirling frenzy.


I also don't see where the -6/-8 penalties to attack rolls come from.

-2 for monkey grip, -2 for not having increased strength, -2 for inferior BAB (although this is only -1 with fragmented BAB).

[Darrin]

As has been pointed out, YDIW:

Not called GREAT Club for nothing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49522)

[Morph Bark]

That was more of a mistype. Instead of 4 inches around i meant 4 inches thick and 16 inches thick.

And as a point of reference a club 1 inch thick would just be 1*pi not 2*1*pi.

Big mistype. :smalltongue: But you are certainly correct. The formula is 2*radius*pi, but I used the 1 inch as the radius in there, not the diameter, which is what I have been talking about. Thank you for the correction.

Still though, a club 4 inches thick? That's at least an inch thicker than a baseball bat (I think the ones I've always used were 2 1/2 inches thick). If a club would be that thick, how thick would a greatclub have to be? :smalleek: Remember, a club has a cost of "-" and can therefore just be any stick you pick up from the ground. Most sticks like that aren't 4 inches thick at all. Greatclubs though? Yeah, I can certainly see them being that thick or up to 6 inches even.

[Togo]

Doesn't a colossal club deal 4d6 damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize)? :smallconfused:
1d6 (Medium) -> 1d8 (Large) -> 2d6 (Huge) -> 3d6 (Gargantuan) -> 4d6 (Colossal)
EDIT: Oh, I understand, you're using one of those Colossal++ things. Yeah, many tables wouldn't accept that.

To be clear, I'm assuming that damage steps increase beyond the listed amount for a colossal version of the given weapon, as per the MM, even if the the size of the weapons themselves (and objects generally) are capped at colossal. But yes, the rule is widely disputed, and thus not to be relied on.

[Togo]

Still though, a club 4 inches thick? That's at least an inch thicker than a baseball bat (I think the ones I've always used were 2 1/2 inches thick). If a club would be that thick, how thick would a greatclub have to be? :smalleek: Remember, a club has a cost of "-" and can therefore just be any stick you pick up from the ground. Most sticks like that aren't 4 inches thick at all. Greatclubs though? Yeah, I can certainly see them being that thick or up to 6 inches even.

Clubs in 3.5 are actually small poles or long truncheons if you look at the given dimensions, which isn't how most people think of a club at all. It's closer to pool hall than caveman. By the time you get to gargantuan and larger, you're basically looking at using a spindly tree as a weapon. Some DMs have, no unreasonably, questioned whether such a mighty timber would really be 'free', and readily available for sale in small hamlets, desert nomad encampments, and tiny tundra trading camps. Keeping wood shape memorised may help prevent arguements.

[Morph Bark]

How far do those damage progression go anyway?

1 -> 1d2 -> 1d3 -> 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 -> 2d6 -> 3d6 -> 4d6 -> 6d6 -> 8d6 -> 12d6 -> 16d6 -> ???

1d10 -> 2d8 -> 3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8 -> 16d8 -> ???