This can't be right [Epic Seed development]

[Calanon]

Spellcraft DCs for epic seeds are generated from a base DC of 10. Why 10? Many basic effects in D&D have DCs that start at 10, so epic seeds have the same foundation as skill checks, saving throws, and other effects. The actual DC for each seed is figured by looking at the lowest-level spell that’s truly representative for a given seed among the spells in the Player’s Handbook. Using that spell as a basis, the maximum ranks in Spellcraft that a sorcerer powerful enough to cast the spell would have determines the base Spellcraft DC of the seed. That number is added to the base DC of 10. For example, the animate dead spell in the Player’s Handbook is the lowest-level representative of the animate dead seed. A sorcerer would have to be 10th level to cast it. A 10th-level sorcerer has a maximum of 13 ranks in Spellcraft. So, 13 + 10 = 23, and the Spellcraft DC of the animate dead seed is 23.

I checked the Errata for the Epic level handbook and it still doesn't make sense... Oh? you don't understand? well allow me to explain: You see Animate dead (The 4th level spell) can be casted by a Sorcerer at 8th level meaning that the maximum spellcraft ranks possible at this level would be 11 and not 13... meaning that the DC for the Animate Dead seed would be 21 and not 23...

Oh? You think that is the only bumble made with the Epic spell seeds? The Foresee seed has a total DC of 17 (10 + base sorcerer level of 4 + 3 for max ranks in Spellcraft) Meaning the highest level spell that can be casted is 2nd level... Lets examine the Foresee Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/foresee.htm)... I don't see a single core 2nd level spell that resembles that... the earliest spell that resembles that comes at 5th level called Contact other plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) meaning the seeds base DC would be 23... (We should also note that the seed should have 2 separate Base DC one being 31 for being an obvious... "adjusted" version of the Foresight spell)

To summarize me going through each and every epic spell seeds dying just a little bit more with each agonizing error in base DC... but that would be a huge waste of time and effort so eh...

Anywho! I'm asking you the playground what should I do for this? should I just accept the errors made by WoTC? Or should I go back and modify each and every epic spell i've ever made to account for proper math? :smallfrown:

[Mr L.]

I believe that it is based on 3.0 spell list where "animate dead" was 5th level spell for sorcerers.

For another seed you mentioned, its probably based on "locate object" or "detect thoughts" both 2nd level spell (in 3.0).

[Mr L.]

I believe that it is based on 3.0 spell list where "animate dead" was 5th level spell for sorcerers.

For another seed you mentioned, its probably based on "locate object" or "detect thoughts" both 2nd level spell (in 3.0).

[Calanon]

I believe that it is based on 3.0 spell list where "animate dead" was 5th level spell for sorcerers.

Understandable.


For another seed you mentioned, its probably based on "locate object" or "detect thoughts" both 2nd level spell (in 3.0).

Unacceptable and illogical. The only thing those spells have in common is that they both belong to the school of divination. Otherwise they have no relation.

[Mr L.]

Understandable.



Unacceptable and illogical. The only thing those spells have in common is that they both belong to the school of divination. Otherwise they have no relation.


They are 2nd level spells which means that sorcerer needs to be level 4 to learn and cast them. So if he is level 4 then his max rank in spellcraft is 7, add 10 to it and you have basic DC of 17 for Foresee seed.

[TuggyNE]

Oh? You think that is the only bumble made with the Epic spell seeds? The Foresee seed has a total DC of 17 (10 + base sorcerer level of 4 + 3 for max ranks in Spellcraft) Meaning the highest level spell that can be casted is 2nd level... Lets examine the Foresee Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/foresee.htm)... I don't see a single core 2nd level spell that resembles that... the earliest spell that resembles that comes at 5th level called Contact other plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm) meaning the seeds base DC would be 23... (We should also note that the seed should have 2 separate Base DC one being 31 for being an obvious... "adjusted" version of the Foresight spell)

Augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury) fits the description perfectly — except it's not a Sor/Wiz spell, of course. The description doesn't actually say they only looked at Sor/Wiz spells, though.

[Calanon]

They are 2nd level spells which means that sorcerer needs to be level 4 to learn and cast them. So if he is level 4 then his max rank in spellcraft is 7, add 10 to it and you have basic DC of 17 for Foresee seed.

Thank you for educating me on something I did not know.


Augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury) fits the description perfectly — except it's not a Sor/Wiz spell, of course. The description doesn't actually say they only looked at Sor/Wiz spells, though.

Sure, I'll take that into account (even though it explicitly states "that a Sorcerer can cast") but Animate Dead seed still makes no sense. I'm searching for my old 3rd edition book that I thought I burned (my house burned down a while back and I managed to save my books)

[Ingus]

I perfectly know ho frustrating is to deal with Epic Level Handbook.
It is just poorly written and balanced, and when you'll do the math, you'll find out that seeds DC are either dramatically high or, with heavy mitigating factor application, blatantly low for their result.
If I may suggest you a way to deal with it, just adjust it step by step.

To go straight to the point, I guess designers wanted to say this: "We gave DCs to seeds with two standards: 1) the lower level spell that pretty much does the same basic thing; 2) the 10+spellcraft a sorcerer with maxed ranks will have (regardless of the presence of the benchmark spell to his class list)".
All this based on 3.0 rules.

[Douglas]

I just checked my old 3.0 PHB, and it shows Animate Dead as Cleric 3, Death domain 3, Sor/Wiz 5. So, using the 3.0 Sor/Wiz level, the Animate Dead seed's DC calculation is correct.

The Epic Level Handbook was published before the 3.5 PHB, so the 3.0 listing was actually the most current up-to-date version in existence when they wrote the epic spell seeds.

As for Foresee, they used all spells in the entire PHB, not just the Sorcerer list. Sorcerer is used for the benchmark of when every single full caster class in existence has access to a particular spell level and, when a spell is on multiple class lists at different levels, which class list's spell level to use. Or maybe they went with using the highest spell level listed, that might make more sense. Anyway, Foresee is based on Augury.

I think the general idea was to find the lowest level at which every primary casting class (so disregard bard, paladin, etc.) would be able to cast the representative spell, disregarding whether it's actually on any particular class's list or not, and set the Spellcraft benchmark at a character of that level with average intelligence and max in-class ranks taking 10. Sort of a "if normal spells worked the same way epic spells do and everybody always takes 10, what DC would make sense for the worst-case class assuming average stats?" scheme.

[The Glyphstone]

"Epic"
+
"This can't be right"
=
Honestly is anyone surprised at this point?

[Slipperychicken]

After one time seriously trying to use the Epic rules, and Spellcasting in particular, I realized what a mess they are, with some effects being virtually impossible to attain, and some gamebreakers easily mitigated to DC 0 with no real drawback. I was so busy mitigating effects to below zero that I didn't realize the epic DCs were based on anything other than the whims of rushed designers.


The experience of trying to use these rules made me realize that the designers, like the rest of us, are capable of horrendous error, and their work should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to learn to accept WotCs errors, seriously try to build and test-run a Truenamer by RAW; the Truenaming rules are near-unusable, as in, you don't know how the mechanics are supposed to function.

[Calanon]

After one time seriously trying to use the Epic rules, and Spellcasting in particular, I realized what a mess they are, with some effects being virtually impossible to attain, and some gamebreakers easily mitigated to DC 0 with no real drawback. I was so busy mitigating effects to below zero that I didn't realize the epic DCs were based on anything other than the whims of rushed designers.

I'm re-examining the Epic spellcasting rules for a reason, the game I'm planning to run will be an Age of Netheril game (Meaning everyone whose anyone will be an Epic spellcaster) and I realized I need to re-write and errata a lot of the rules myself, I'm starting to think that these rules are salvageable if you just ignore the seeds, craft your own, and make a rule that states that you can't have a spellcraft DC of 0 otherwise you get tossed into your nearest plane of unpleasantness :smallamused:


The experience of trying to use these rules made me realize that the designers, like the rest of us, are capable of horrendous error, and their work should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to learn to accept WotCs errors, seriously try to build and test-run a Truenamer by RAW; the Truenaming rules are near-unusable, as in, you don't know how the mechanics are supposed to function.

Never played a Truenamer based on public opinion of the class... can't be done... I'm not a huge fan of TO or RAW, I prefer to use what really makes sense... Gating in a Solar Army just seems a little cheap, Ice Assassin army of gods makes sense (I believe there is a module that explains this as okay), but just seems so damn cheap... and its just not my style :smallannoyed:


"Epic"
+
"This can't be right"
=
Honestly is anyone surprised at this point?

I'm not surprised by anything anymore in 3.5 :smallannoyed: it just feels like the writers had there eyes stitched shut during the entire procedure of writing the Epic level handbook... I hear Exalted is a good way to play Epic level without some of the "bugs" in the system...

[Kuulvheysoon]

"Epic"
+
"This can't be right"
=
Honestly is anyone surprised at this point?

This. So many times over.

[TuggyNE]

"Epic"
+
"This can't be right"
=
Honestly is anyone surprised at this point?

Not really no. :smallyuk:

[Tyndmyr]

The experience of trying to use these rules made me realize that the designers, like the rest of us, are capable of horrendous error, and their work should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to learn to accept WotCs errors, seriously try to build and test-run a Truenamer by RAW; the Truenaming rules are near-unusable, as in, you don't know how the mechanics are supposed to function.

Yeah, actually do that.

See, I did that, instead of merely repeating the meme that Truenamer is unusable. I found out it's actually pretty easy to understand how it works. Oh, sure, it's no tier 1 after it's built, but building a working truenamer is pretty obvious. Get truenaming modifier high enough to hit the DCs. Done.

Epic spellcasting's big problem is mitigation. Also, high DCs for some things, but mitigation is the real game breaker. Additionally, cycling higher int buffs for ever higher bonuses is sort of a problem. The conversions from 3.0 to 3.5 are the least of my worries about that system.