Brainstorming: How Would You Make a Tier 3 Cleric (Think Beguiler)

[wayfare]

Hey All:

I just got done making what I hope to be a Tier 3 divination centered mage, and I thought that I would turn my efforts to making a tier 3 cleric class.

The only problem is, i don't know where to start.

Any help you all can give would be great!

[Whammydill]

You could always start with Favored Soul as a framework. Heck, It may qualify on its own with some rebranding/refluffling of some class features. I have never had much success with the class in actual gameplay. I also cannot recall ever seeing it used in any optimized builds. Doesn't mean there isnt any though.

[sol_kanar]

What about giving him the same spells per day as a Bard, and then flavorful/cool features based on Turn Undead and/or domain choice, such as extra feats or abilities that improve with level?

You might also try to have a look at the Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) base class in PF.

[Waker]

I think the Inquisitor would be a better representative of T3 rather than Favored Soul or Oracle.
What aspects of the Cleric did you want to focus on for a T3 class? They are powerful spellcasters, have access to domains, turn/rebuke undead and can be potent combatants if they choose to wade into the melee.

Anyways, here is a potential T3 Clericish class. I mixed it with Bard for flavor.

Hymnist
HD-D6
BAB- 1/2
Saves- Good Will, Bad Fort/Refl
Skills- 4 + Int. Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana, History, Nature, Religion, The Planes), Listen, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Weapons/Armor- Proficient with Simple weapons, Light armor.
Spellcasting- Spontaneous, Divine Charisma-based. Bard progression.
Domains- Choose two. Domain spells are added to your spells known at the appropriate levels.
Turn/Rebuke Undead- As a cleric -2.
Holy Scripture (SU)- The Hymnist can begin quoting scripture to bolster his allies or hinder his foes. Quoting scripture requires a Standard action to make a Perform (Oratory or Singing), though maintaining the effect requires a Move action. While quoting, the Hymnist may not cast spells, activate spell complete, trigger or command magic items. The Hymnist may quote scripture once per day per Hymnist level. Feats and classes that progress or interact with Bardic Music may be applied to Holy Scripture.
-Verse of Valor- Requires Perform 3. All allies who can see and hear the Hymnist gain a +2 AC, +1 for each adjacent ally. These bonuses both increase by 1 every five levels.
-Temerarious Council- Requires Perform 3. All foes who can see or hear the Hymnist take a -2 AC, -1 for each adjacent foe. This bonus increases every five levels. An opponent must make a Will sv (DC= Performance Check) to ignore this effect. This is not a mind-affecting ability and thus affects mindless enemies.
-Verse of Ardor- Requires Perform 6. All allies who can see and hear the Hymnist may ignore the effects of fatigue/exhaustion, paralysis, stunning, daze and slow. At level 10, this ability includes any effect that would be countered by Freedom of Movement as well.
-Remonstration of Sloth- Requires Perform 6. All foes who can see or hear the Hymnist are affected as if by the Slow spell. At level 10, this ability duplicates the effects of Dimensional Anchor, preventing all teleportation effects within 60ft of the Hymnist. An opponent must make a Will sv (DC= Performance Check) to ignore this effect.
Sacred Voice (SU)- By expending a use of Turn/Rebuke Undead, a Hymnist may expand the range of any Cure/Inflict spell from Touch to Close (25ft +5/2 caster levels).
At 6th level, this ability may be used to extend the range of any other spell with a range of Touch.
At level 10 you may apply the benefits of any spell modified by this ability to another ally/level, no two of which can be more than 30ft apart.

I could have kept going, but I got lazy after a while.

[prufock]

Favoured Soul is a good start. The thing that makes beguilers tier 3 while sorcerers are tier 2 is the focused spell list. Giving the favoured soul a set spell list focused on 2 or 3 things could drop it down a tier. It's really all about spell selection.

Turn Undead can make a cleric powerful if used for things other than actually turning undead. Favoured souls don't have that. They get some free weapon feats and resistances, but those can't be abused like turn undead attempts.

[Rhaegar14]

How I would probably try to do it is trim down their spell list to something very specialized in healing/buffing (use the Healer list as a base, but it would need to be updated), then have each domain add two (maybe even three for a weaker or highly specialized domain) spells per spell level to their list.

Also, while optimization level more-or-less has nothing to do with tier, banning Divine Metamagic would probably go a long way.

[wayfare]

I think the Inquisitor would be a better representative of T3 rather than Favored Soul or Oracle.
What aspects of the Cleric did you want to focus on for a T3 class? They are powerful spellcasters, have access to domains, turn/rebuke undead and can be potent combatants if they choose to wade into the melee.

I think I am aiming for full casting ability, but limited spell list, like the Dread Necromancer or Binder.

Thus would probably have to be a few classes...hmmm...like this:

Warpriest: Better at combat than a normal priest (no full BA, but nifts class features to help). Major access to buffs and attack spells, minor access to healing.

Creationist: Major access to healing, major access to summoning (limited to elementals or beings w/o crazy SU's and SLAs), minor access to crowd control.

[Lans]

Take the Healer spell list and add the inflict line and harm; and keep let them keep the domain spells. Add another domain at 6th and every 5 levels after words. Let them get the Healer abilities in exchange for proficiencies, vow, and BAB as well as making one of the domains be the healing one.

[erikun]

I've been thinking of doing the exact same thing, but have been too lazy to begin. Here's what I've thought of so far:

d8 HD, Simple Weapons, all Shields and Armor, 3/4 BAB, good Fort and Will saves. That is, the basic chassis of the Cleric.

Increase the skill points to 4 + Intelligence Modifier. Not only is 2+Int a ridiculously small number of skill points for anyone (who isn't INT-based), but a class with less-versatile spellcasting will want some skills to still be relevant.

Give them Beguiler-like spellcasting; they simply know their spell list. They have spell slots as a regular Cleric, minus the bonus spells due to domains. This will be balanced by cutting back on their spell list.

Clerics get the domain powers and domain spells added to their spell lists. Remove the overpowered spells (Shapechange, Anyspell, Shadow Conjuration) or simply ban those domains. To keep things interesting, perhaps just start with one domain at 1st level, a second at 4th, and maybe two or three more as they level up.

No Turn Undead by default. Hand out Turn Undead with appropriate domains (Sun for Turning, Death for Rebuke, etc) but Clerics don't get it automatically. It's rather silly that everyone worshipping a deity has to play some fundamental game with undead, and the various turn-powered feats are primarily in the game to make use of these Turn-uses that most Clerics never even use.

Cut down on the spell list. Primarily, you want to keep the healing/restoring, the any-character buffs, and the spells that feel thematically Cleric-like (Spiritual Weapon, Holy Word, Miracle, etc.) You want to get rid of the self-buffs, the overt divination, and a lot of the blast. The first is a big problem with Clerics, and the last two can be replicated with the right domains. (Note that you could still get Righteous Might/Divine Favor with the right domains.)

Here is a rough list of the spells I'd choose, just taking ones from the SRD and Complete Divine for now. You'll also note that I've cut out a lot of the debuffs, and all the undead-related spells. Just make an Undead/Anti-Undead domain if you want to include them back in.
* = Complete Divine

0-Level Cleric Spells (Orisons)
Cure Minor Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Guidance
Inflict Minor Wounds
Light
Mending
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Resistance
Virtue

1st-Level Cleric Spells
Bane
Bless
Bless Water
Cause Fear
Cure Light Wounds
Curse Water
Deathwatch
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Doom
Endure Elements
Entropic Shield
Inflict Light Wounds
Magic Stone
Magic Weapon
Nimbus of Light*
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Remove Fear
Resurgence*
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith
Vigor, Lesser*

2nd-Level Cleric Spells
Aid
Align Weapon
Augury
Bear’s Endurance
Bull’s Strength
Consecrate
Cure Moderate Wounds
Darkness
Deific Vengeance*
Delay Poison
Desecrate
Eagle’s Splendor
Gentle Repose
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Make Whole
Owl’s Wisdom
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy
Restoration, Lesser
Shield Other
Silence
Spiritual Weapon
Status
Undetectable Alignment
Zone of Truth

3rd-Level Cleric Spells
Blessed Aim*
Blindness/Deafness
Continual Flame
Create Food and Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Daylight
Deeper Darkness
Dispel Magic
Flame of Faith*
Glyph of Warding
Helping Hand
Inflict Serious Wounds
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Magic Vestment
Obscure Object
Prayer
Protection from Energy
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Spikes*
Telepathic Bond, Lesser*
Vigor*
Vigor, Mass Lesser*

4th-Level Cleric Spells
Castigate*
Cure Critical Wounds
Death Ward
Dimensional Anchor
Discern Lies
Dismissal
Divination
Freedom of Movement
Imbue with Spell Ability
Inflict Critical Wounds
Magic Weapon, Greater
Neutralize Poison
Recitation*
Restoration
Resurgence, Mass*
Reverence*
Sending
Spell Immunity
Weapon of the Deity*

5th-Level Cleric Spells
Atonement
Break Enchantment
Command, Greater
Commune X
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Dance of the Unicorn*
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Disrupting Weapon
Divine Agility*
Hallow
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass
Mark of Justice
Plane Shift
Spell Resistance
Stalwart Pact*
Subvert Planar Essence*
True Seeing
Unhallow
Vigor, Greater*

6th-Level Cleric Spells
Banishment
Bear’s Endurance, Mass
Bull’s Strength, Mass
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Dispel Magic, Greater
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass
Find the Path
Forbiddance
Geas/Quest
Glyph of Warding, Greater
Harm
Heal
Heroes’ Feast
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass
Vigorous Circle*
Word of Recall
Zealot Pact*

7th-Level Cleric Spells
Blasphemy
Control Weather
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Dictum
Ethereal Jaunt
Holy Word
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Refuge
Regenerate
Renewal Pact*
Repulsion
Restoration, Greater
Resurrection
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful*
Spell Resistance, Mass*
Word of Chaos

8th-Level Cleric Spells
Antimagic Field
Cloak of Chaos
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Death Pact*
Dimensional Lock
Holy Aura
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Shield of Law
Spell Immunity, Greater
Unholy Aura

9th-Level Cleric Spells
Astral Projection
Etherealness
Gate
Heal, Mass
Miracle
Soul Bind
True Resurrection

[Lans]

What if you gave them a set 3+charisma on the various domain abilities per day? So a cleric of Pelor, with sun and strength domains and 12 charisma could turn undead 3 times and get a strength boost once in one day. Or the reverse

[erikun]

What if you gave them a set 3+charisma on the various domain abilities per day? So a cleric of Pelor, with sun and strength domains and 12 charisma could turn undead 3 times and get a strength boost once in one day. Or the reverse
Hmm, interesting. This sounds like the 4e/5e idea of a "Channel Divinity" ability, but with the class getting 3+CHA uses each day. They can spend one use on each domain ability or divine-powered feats, so that 16 CHA Cleric with 6 'channelings' could either turn/strength boost 6 times or persist once.

The biggest problem I'd forsee is that it would require re-writing a lot larger chunk of the ruleset. You'd need to determine which domain powers run off divinity charges, as opposed to just x/day uses. (My suggestion probably isn't much better, but it's a lot easier to estimate which domains would grant turning or rebuking.)

It would make some players think, having to choose between free movement from Travel or DMM Persists.