Negative Levels on Multiclassed Chars

[moritheil]

So, the negative level rules are actually kind of ambiguous about what happens to multiclassed characters.

RAW, it seems that a psion/wizard/cerebremancer would lose both a prepared spell of highest level, and access to one power as well as the power points it would have cost.

But also by RAW, it seems that an ultimate magus or a mystic theurge would only lose one spell slot of highest level. Is that right? Or should it mirror the cerebremancer situation, for fairness?

How does this work with, say, a Wizard/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage? I presume they take a hit to both caster level and initiator level, and lose one highest prepared spell . . . should they also lose one readied maneuver? If so, do they lose access to it for the rest of the day (as a psion) or just get it back the next time they refresh?

Of course no matter what the character is, he or she loses 5 hp, gets a -1 penalty to attacks/saves/skills, etc. But it seems to me they really didn't make it clear how negative levels should affect multiclassed characters.

[Venger]

well, as far as mystic theurge goes, just treat them as more spells. if you have 3 arcane and 3 divines at the highest lvl (sake of argument) then you'd roll say a d6 to see which you lost

for cerebremancer, since you don't prepare spell slots, you wouldn't lose "access" to a power the same way that a sorcerer doesn't lose access to a spell, he instead loses a slot. that would mean that you would lose a number of power points equal to what it'd take to manifest your highest level power.

I'm not sure how exactly it works for soulmelds/mysteries/utterances/maneuvers/stances, etc though. that's an interesting question.

[Morph Bark]

Since in ToB there is no mention what happens to initiator level when you gain negative levels, nothing happens to their initiator level when they gain some.

Otherwise, yes, you are right. It would be fairer if they lost the highest spell level of each of their classes, yes. On the one hand, it balances it out against psionic/casters and noncasters, though on the other hand due to being multiclass casters they are already falling behind spell level-wise.

[moritheil]

well, as far as mystic theurge goes, just treat them as more spells. if you have 3 arcane and 3 divines at the highest lvl (sake of argument) then you'd roll say a d6 to see which you lost

for cerebremancer, since you don't prepare spell slots, you wouldn't lose "access" to a power the same way that a sorcerer doesn't lose access to a spell, he instead loses a slot. that would mean that you would lose a number of power points equal to what it'd take to manifest your highest level power.

... No, I'm talking about this:


Psionic characters can gain negative levels just like members of other character classes. A psionic character loses access to one power per negative level from the highest level of power he can manifest; he also loses a number of power points equal to the cost of that power. If two or more powers fit these criteria, the manifester decides which one becomes inaccessible. The lost power becomes available again as soon the negative level is removed

It quite clearly states that you lose access to the power, not just the equivalent of a spell slot.


I'm not sure how exactly it works for soulmelds/mysteries/utterances/maneuvers/stances, etc though. that's an interesting question.

I hope to answer it!


Since in ToB there is no mention what happens to initiator level when you gain negative levels, nothing happens to their initiator level when they gain some.

But:


-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).

In the general case, they are treated as 1 level lower for every negative level, for things that depend on level. At the very least that implies a -1 to initiator level.


Otherwise, yes, you are right. It would be fairer if they lost the highest spell level of each of their classes, yes. On the one hand, it balances it out against psionic/casters and noncasters, though on the other hand due to being multiclass casters they are already falling behind spell level-wise.

I am not sure what you are balancing with what in the above statement. Would you mind rephrasing that a bit? Do you mean ToB classes need to balance out against tier 1 casters, and your solution is making them more resistant to level draining?

[JoshuaZ]

Since in ToB there is no mention what happens to initiator level when you gain negative levels, nothing happens to their initiator level when they gain some.


The houserule I've seen is -1 to initiator level and loss of one maneuver of the highest level they can use. But this is completely a houserule.

[moritheil]

For Tome of Battle/Bo9S, I think I'm going to say -1 IL, expend 1 maneuver, no restriction on getting back the maneuver when you refresh. Losing access to a maneuver outright seems too severe, and seems to be a unique psychic classes thing.

I'm still not sure how it ought to function with mysteries etc. but as no one has opted to use those in my current campaigns, I can thankfully shelve such concerns.

Thanks to everyone who posted. :smallsmile: