Building a BardBlade

[Zarake]

So, just got in with a new group, and have decided to take the role of the buffer, but since our main damage dealer is a Archery Ranger I think something with a bit more kick is in order.
Which leads me to the playground looking for advice on a bardblade.
The rest of the party is goes as follows:
Elf Ranger (Archery Style, first time playing, going try to steer her towards swift hunter)
Half-Elf Monk (He's a veteran, knows what he is getting into.)
Fire-Elf Ninja
And Warforged Wujen.

Break down looks like this:
Race Silver Brow Human Bard 1
Str: 17
Dex: 15
Con: 11
Int: 11
Wis: 9
Cha: 15

Feats:
Dragonfire Inspiration (Level 1)
Improved Initiative (Human)
Power attack (Flaw)

I took the Shaky flaw for -1 to hit with ranged.

All books open, I think 3rd party and Dragon Mag need to be run by the DM, but he seems pretty easy going about stuff like that.

[Eronai_Jantig]

Highly recommend you drop power attack and Improved Initiative. They're kinda a trap in this particular case. I'd say take Lingering Song and Snowflake Wardance. Take Extra Music so that you can actually Sing/Dance at lower levels. Pump your charisma. Consider being a savage bard.

So many things. I recommend you google Snowflake Wardance bard, you'll find many builds of what you're looking for. Never really built one myself, so I'm not too versed in the ways offhand. More of a buff bard guy myself. Main thing is, be sure to use Inspire Courage and Dragonfire Inspiration at the same time, that with snowflake wardance will make you a god of melee, especially when you look into buffing your inspire with things like words of creation.

[Tyger]

While I agree that both Imp Init and Power Attack may not be appropriate, it is incumbent upon me to note that you can't take Snowflake Wardance at first level - it requires 6 ranks in Perform (Dance) which you can't (baring significant shenanigans) accomplish at first level.

That said, you do want to look really hard at Snowflake Wardance for later though - it is awesome.

Also take a look at the Crystal Echoblade from MiC, it will add even more damage to your setup.

The usual magic items apply (Badge of Valour, Vest of Legends, etc).

I would suggest, for your level one feats, DFI (which you have), Melodic Casting (being able to cast/activate magic items while singing is huge) and Lingering Song (though you might want to retrain out of it later when you have enough bard levels that it doesn't matter).

Just some thoughts.

[Eronai_Jantig]

it is incumbent upon me to note that you can't take Snowflake Wardance at first level - it requires 6 ranks in Perform (Dance) which you can't (baring significant shenanigans) accomplish at first level.

Whoops, sorry about that, I knew I was forgetting something about it. The reason I suggest lingering song is that the length of Inspire is only 5 rounds after someone has heard it, and if you're stacking both DFI and Inspire, you'll want them to last a bit longer.

[eggs]

The cookiecutter build is a spinoff of Bard 6/Warblade 14 with the Song of the Heart and Song of the White Raven feats from Eberron Campaign Setting and Tome of Battle, Inspirational Boost spell from the Spell Compendium, one of the masterwork horns from Song and Silence, the Badge of Valor from Magic Item Compendium and Vest of Legends from the DMG2. Maneuver choices usually mean whatever party-wide sources of bonus attacks are available (usually Tiger Claw and White Raven).

Useful add-ons are:

Words of Creation from the Book of Exalted Deeds to double IC/DFI bonuses. This requires heavy ability score investment, strict alignment requirements and comes with a warning label for DMs.
Lingering Song feat (CAdv) or a Harmonic Weapon (MIC) for longer combats
Some form of reliable Undersong effect (spell in Champions of Ruin that replaces Concentration checks with Perform) + Concentration-based Diamond Mind maneuvers. Reliable forms of the spell typically mean either Persisting it via metamagic shenanigans, a continuous activation custom item (very cheap per item creation rules), or just carrying a wand around and relying on the party's scout/diviner.
Melodic Casting feat (CMage) to activate magic items or cast spells while musical effects are active.


The combination is a bit of a weird one because its main synergy is in its level-stacking on an ability which isn't particularly level-dependent. As long as a character has 1 Bard level, it can get +10d6 energy damage through 2 feats and a relatively small sum of gp. So once you have a day's worth of IC uses (keeping in mind that IC doesn't have either a set duration or concentration requirement), don't be afraid to dip out into other classes (typically JPM, using items for additional schools of maneuvers).

[Bard for Kicks]

With your 11 in con, I think it would be best to stay away from the combat fray and resort to archery.
From this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241887
AC has proved to be less worthwhile when monster gain the ability to hit at a much faster rate.
Dragonfire Inspiration makes archery much more effective (and bards get proficiency with Shortbow, so switch str with cha and pump dex) so you might want to hit foes from the sidelines while your monk moves really fast and misses a lot. :smallwink: ha monks.

Though Dragonfire Inspiration bard is very appealing, have you considered taking normal inspire courage? With Inspirational Boost (spell compendium?), Badge of Valor (MIC), and Word of Creation (BoED), you could give a significant bonus to attack rolls for your monk so he can actually maybe possibly land his flurry of suckage.

To become a really awesome combatant and help your allies more, you could take Heartfire Fanner (it is in dragon mag 314 so ask your DM) to grant metamagic or fighter feats to allies when you sing

[Keld Denar]

Bardblade's don't really behave the same way as a normal Bard. You don't actually have any Cha dependance from any of your abilities. A 12 Cha is about all you need unless you want 1 2nd level spell/day, at which point 14 is plenty high. You don't need a 26 Cha or anything. Focus that effort on Str and Con. You don't need to spent resources to get +Str to damage, its always there when you need it and works every time 100% of the time. You generally aren't really gonna cast any spells OTHER than Insp Boost, so Melodic Casting is kinda not as important, especially since you don't really have any reason to put more than 3 ranks in Perform (and you can't use Perform for Diamond Mind maneuvers without Undersong). A Crystal Echoblade isn't gonna give you very much in the way of +damage, since you'll only have 3-4 actual Bard levels (+1-2 damage per hit). Whether or not that damage is worth the 2k price tag is up to each player. Snowflake Wardance is also less good, requiring you to invest 2 feats in it (SFWD + Extra Music to use it since you'll only have 3-4 BM uses otherwise), and given that nothing else in your build depends on Cha AND it forces you to not use a 2handed weapon (like a reach weapon, glaives are awesome). Thats just a TON of resources to spend for marginal returns.

Stat-wise, a Bardblade should be VERY similar to a normal Warblade. Str > Con > Dex > Int > Cha > Wis, as long as you have at least a 12 Cha. Str is still your primary attribute. Con and Dex are a close second, depending on armor and feat desires. Int powers a few Warblade abilities, but its more of a bonus than a direct requirement. Cha and Wis should be your lowest stats, as long as you can actually cast Inspirational Boost.

Feats should be very melee oriented. Power Attack is a gimme. Dragonfire Inspiration is good, but not vital since IC synergizes with PA better unless you are always PAing for max. Song of the White Raven is vital to the archtype. From there, things like Imp Trip are good with a glaive since you get Combat Reflexes as a Warblade bonus feat. Hold the Line is fun with a reach weapon. Charging feats work with White Raven tec. Most of the typical bardic feat suggestions just aren't that useful for a Bardblade. Focus on your strengths.

[eggs]

Though Dragonfire Inspiration bard is very appealing, have you considered taking normal inspire courage?
The typical strategy is to use both. Dragonfire Inspiration overrides existing Inspire Courage effects, but IC's moral bonus stacks with existing DFI effects. This means that a bard can begin an adventure or dungeon dive by inspiring courage (DFI active) as a standard action for the full bonus (with Inspirational Boost and Badge of Valor) and continue the effect until there's trouble. At the beginning of a fight, the bard can discontinue the DFI effect (it persists for 10 rounds with Lingering Song, 5 rounds without), begin a new Inspire Courage effect without DFI as a swift action via Song of the White Raven (not quite a full boost, due Inspirational Boost's activation time) and use the remaining standard+move actions to join the fight through UMD, a maneuver or a straightforward charge.

This is where the limits on daily uses come in - with just one type of IC, the effects can basically be maintained indefinitely (they don't require concentration, don't have a set duration; a Warforged could keep an IC effect based on Perform: Annoying Humming active for days).

Looking at this through the romanticized lens of a level 20 build, that means generating +14 attack/+14 damage (morale) as well as +16d6 fire damage and a War Master's Charge in the first round of any combat.

[Bloodgruve]

If you want to take advantage of DFI and/or IC you may want to look at gaining more attacks. Totemist2 accomplishes this well, along with Kobold. Not sure what it takes to get DFI as a Kobold but you easily can get some natural attacks. I've looked at a Totemist2/BardX or Totemist2/Bard4/WarbladeX to take advantage of IC. Take Multiattack if the DM allows soulmelds to count or if you take kobold. Still get song of the white raven and song of the heart. With the right soul melds and feats you could have 8 attacks by 3rd level that you could apply IC or DFI to.

GL
Blood~

[Keld Denar]

The only problem with what eggs suggested is that it broadcasts your position to anyone who can make a DC 0 Listen check. Generally, a tiny bit more discression is required. Weaving 2 songs from a dead stop takes a bit more effort, especially if you want the full suite of modifications on them like Inspirational Boost and a Badge of Valor. Also, not quite sure where he's getting +14 from...Words of Creation and weird order stacking probably.

[eggs]

Also, not quite sure where he's getting +14 from...Words of Creation and weird order stacking probably.
Yeah. Words of Creation with the direct (but insane) interpretation.
(4 [Base] + 1 [Instrument] + 1 [Song of the Heart] + 1 [Badge of Valor]) * 2 [Words of Creation]
= +14 bonus without Inspirational boost

But looking at the practicality of getting both songs up, actions only become an issue if someone both insists on milking every last +1 out of IC, and milking those bonuses without preparation.

Looking at a character that wants to get both songs up, doesn't want to announce the party's presence ahead of time and doesn't have the subsonics feat:
Either:
Round 1: Activate IC [with DFI] as a Swift Action, engage in melee with rest of round - results in 10 rounds of +[full potential-2]d6 fire damage.
Round 2: Activate IC [w/o DFI] as a Swift Action, continue in melee for rest of round - results in continuous +[full potential-2] attack/damage
Immediately following round 2: Activate Badge of Valor to increase both bonuses to +[full potential-1].

Result: First 3 rounds' swift actions eaten, but nearly-full IC+DFI is active by round 2.

Or:

Round 1: Activate IC [with DFI] as a Swift Action, activate IC [w/o DFI] as a Standard action.
Immediately following Round 1: Activate Badge of Valor to give all allies +[full potential-1] attack and +[full potential-1](d6+1) damage.

Result: First 2 rounds' swift actions eaten, as well as the first round's standard action, but nearly-full IC+DFI is active in round 1.

The better option relies on party composition and fight-specific details (eg. can the Bard even join melee effectively in the first round?), but if the Bard is one of the primary damage-dealers, the prior option gets it into the thick of things faster - typically a high priority.

So generally speaking, as long as Moment of Perfect Mind and Wall of Blades aren't all the defense the bard has, the action economy only becomes a problem when a player gets hung up on working Inspirational Boost's +1 into the mix. Otherwise, it's not particularly obtrusive into the routine doings of a melee character.

[Azernak0]

I say Bard 4/Warblade X is the way to go. It gets you 2nd level maneuvers and gets you Second level Bard Spells at level 5 and 4, respectively. With DFI, Two-Weapon Fighting becomes pretty sexy.

Between needing to take DFI, the feat that lets you stack Warblade and Bard, Song of the Heart, and Two-Weapon Fighting, you get feat starved pretty fast. The main thing is to realize just how much damage you are adding to the entire party. I think you can hit +4d6 at like level 4. +14 damage per hit is just nasty.

[Keld Denar]

Then you DEFINITELY need Extra Music. Without it, you only have 4 uses/day on a standard Bard4/Warblade16 build. That's 2 fights. Without flaws, thats 2/7ish feats spent, albeit with pretty shnazzy results. Add in Song of the White Raven, Songs of the Heart, and Power Attack, you are have all of your feats tapped out till 12 or so.

Silverbrow Human
H DFI
1st Extra Music
3rd Songs of the Heart
6th Words of Creation
9th Song of the White Raven
12th Power Attack
15th ?
18th ?

And that's not including Imp Trip and it's prereqs, if you go that route, or something else useful. If you aren't human, thats a lot of feats to pack in.

I dunno. Maybe I'm biased by the simple elegance of it, but I prefer the style of tossing up one song and then engaging.

[Saintheart]

The only problem with what eggs suggested is that it broadcasts your position to anyone who can make a DC 0 Listen check. Generally, a tiny bit more discression is required.

Or the Subsonics feat from Song and Silence, if it's allowed.

[Dexam]

One possible solution to the feat shortage problem is to take a 3-level dip into Lyric Thaumaturge prestige class (Complete Mage). Level 3 of Lyric Thaumaturge will give you Spell Secret for level 1 & 2 spells: you can add any single level 1 and level 2 Sorcerer or Wizard spell to your spells known. Take Heroics (Spell Compendium) as your level 2 spell and use it to pick up a Fighter bonus feat for 10 minutes/caster level. Theoretically, you could even use multiple castings to qualify for feat chains (e.g. TWF -> ITWF -> GTWF, or Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip).

[sol_kanar]

Looking at a character that wants to get both songs up, doesn't want to announce the party's presence ahead of time and doesn't have the subsonics feat:
Either:
Round 1: Activate IC [with DFI] as a Swift Action, engage in melee with rest of round - results in 10 rounds of +[full potential-2]d6 fire damage.
Round 2: Activate IC [w/o DFI] as a Swift Action, continue in melee for rest of round - results in continuous +[full potential-2] attack/damage
Immediately following round 2: Activate Badge of Valor to increase both bonuses to +[full potential-1].

Result: First 3 rounds' swift actions eaten, but nearly-full IC+DFI is active by round 2.


I have a question about this: isn't entering a stance also a swift action? Song of the White Raven only lets you start IC as a swift action if you already are in a White Raven stance. Or I am wrong? Unfortunately I don't have my ToB book with me at the moment.

[Darrin]

I have a question about this: isn't entering a stance also a swift action? Song of the White Raven only lets you start IC as a swift action if you already are in a White Raven stance.

This is true, but there's really no reason to not always be in a White Raven stance. Bolstering Voice is quite good for this.

[eggs]

Then you DEFINITELY need Extra Music. Without it, you only have 4 uses/day on a standard Bard4/Warblade16 build. That's 2 fights.
That's true, and I can tell this is where my personal tastes start to creep in.

I typically use Bard 6 in any IC build, for both the extra daily uses (enough to double up fairly reliably) and to do a little retraining-shimmy to move Song of the Heart out of a feat slot and into an ACF (replacing Suggestion), and avoid Words of Creation due to balance+RP limits+offstat requirements+that warning label for DMs. Those leave a lot of free feats.

For a Bard 4/Warblade X, I agree that 2 uses per fight would be extremely limiting. But even then I'd invest in DFI because morale bonuses are still relatively easily obtainable, and can crop up fairly often if anyone in the party has access to cleric spells.