How would you do it?

[dantiesilva]

So I was thinking of taking inspiration from one of my favorite games and creating the lich king from Warcraft 3. Can anyone point me in a good direction to make it as close to what he is like in the game or better, epic is the lowest he should be, but no more then 30-40. Yes I know anything beyond level 30 is pointless, but as I'm sure some of you know I love really difficult builds for my players to go against.

[ngilop]

Blizzard and Sword and sorcery already did a d20 Arthas/Lich King.

He ended up being CR 52, or maybe 42?

wouldnot be too hard to find what book that is in and make it 3.5 ish

[dantiesilva]

O....any idea where i could find it?

[Deadlights]

Now, my Warcraft lore knowledge is pretty minimal (in that I only played WoW to about lvl 40, 4 years ago), but is he not just a high level melee Lich with heavy armor, ice spells and sword named Frostmourn as a philactery?

[dantiesilva]

In WoW I do not know never played. In warcraft 3 on the other hand he is a fallen paladin who slowly becomes a lich because of frostmere stealing his soul, and also was the first piece of the puzzle to become the lich king. He really didn't focus on cold spells, he was just really the undisputed king in the Ice areas because undead don't take damage from cold after all they don't feel it.

[docnessuno]

How about:
Human Death Knight (MM2 Pg 208) CR 35
Crusader 1 / Cleric 2 / Crusader +7 / Prestige paladin 2 / Bone Knight 10 / Ruby knight vindicator 10
Give him unholy toughness to offset the - con
If you want to increase the CR add some epic RKV levels

[ngilop]

in warcraft lore both WOW and WC 3

Arthas was a fallen paladin who took up frostmourne but arthas fuzed with teh original lich king Nerzhul who was a high ranking warlock, which is a sort of corrupted shaman, at least in the warlock ways, trafficin in demons and emonic energies.

he was somehting like fallen paladin 7 was called 15 shaman(druid) 10 warlock( death knight 10 ( the blackguard of wow but more undead focused) though IDK what book it was in, id have to spend a day or so to find out. he also had some bonus racial hit die to top it off, though they were outsider not undead. as he never was undead. as he was alive when he took the helm and fused with nerzhul


yes, i bought the wc/wow d20 books only to find out it was just 3.5 D&D with different names for spells, not liek the EQ d20 book where it was 100% original in regards to spells and classes

[dantiesilva]

how about feat wise?

[Fable Wright]

Well, the best way I can think of building him would be Gestalt.

Level 30 Gestalt Lich King:

Duskblade 3/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Wizard 3/Dread Necromancer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Dread Necromancer +7/Wizard 4//Cloistered Cleric 5/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Ordained Champion 5/Abjurant Champion (Progressing Wizard) 5/Cleric 4

This would make him completely terrifying to any that look upon him, with Cha to saves, Cha-fueled Turn Undead and Dread Necromancer casting to help fuel his Wizard casting while his Cleric spells make him a king in physical combat (with the ability to spontaneously convert them into quickened War Domain spells that he can cast with Extra Swift Actions), and he can Avasculate while swinging a sword. And he loses a total of 1 BAB over the course of his career.

For a less nuts build, here:

Dread Necromancer 20//Duskblade 20, picking up a Cold-themed Bloodline feat from Dragon Magazine, possibly with Arcane Disciple (Cold Domain). Full BAB, can Channel Avasculate as a full attack with his Paralyzing Touch while hitting people with Negative Levels, and he's aready a Lich. Also, since he created himself in a Desecrated area with potentially the Corpsecrafter feat, he still has plenty of HP, despite being a Lich from DN 20. Oh, and he can command innumerable armies under his direct control from DN 8. And he has Quickened Casting and a few offensive spells, but those are less important.

[docnessuno]

Well, that really depends on your aim. Here's some ideas (for a CR40 version, assuming epic RKV 5 gives a bonus feat):
Non-Epic: Extend spell, Persistent spell, Divine metamagic (persist), quicken spell, lifesense (libris mortis), undead leadership (libris mortis), Craft contingent spell, Power attack
Epic: Epic Leadership, Legendary Commander (both applying to undead leadership), Epic spellcasting (don't use this, just assume it's there for all the scenic stuff he should be able to do), Permanent Emanation x2 (pick some nasty debuffing area spells), Undead Mastery, Zone Of Animation.

[ngilop]

Bash, Battle Cry, Brew Potion, Combat
Casting, Craft Magic Arms and Armor,
Craft Wondrous Item, Devoted Leadership,
Dodge, Exotic Weapon Proficiency
(bastard sword), lmproved Initiative,
Leadership, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize
Spell, Mounted Combat, Power Attack,
Quick Spell, Scribe Scroll, Silent
Spell, Spell Focus (necromancy), Spell
Penetration, Still Spell, Trample, Weapon
Focus (bastard sword, battleaxe,
warhammer), Weapon Specialization
(warhammer)

are his feats. give me another day or so and i'll well, actually I don't think ic an post his stats can I.. grrr

[dantiesilva]

So no dread witch then or thrall of orcus?

For feats I was thinking the whole line of corpse crafter feats,DMM, Craft magic arms and armor, Undead mastery and stuff like that, while also focusing on his sword.

My build I was going to be gestalt
Paladin/Crusader
Paladin2/Crusader2
Paladin3/Crusader3
Paladin4/Ranger 1(for favored enemy)
Paladin 5/Crusader4
Boneknight(or blackguard)/cleric
BK(orBG)/Cleric 10
DN/DW 5
DN+10/True necromancer 10

[docnessuno]

Remember that in gestalt you cannot take a PRC on both sides of the progression at any given level. Also dual progression classes should be out.
Also, unless your players have gestalt characters too, i would avoid this rule alltogheter.
About the corpse-crafter line, remember that Arthas is not a renowed for greating the undeads, just for controlling them and being their 'master'. Other necromancers and clerics under his rule will probably have those feats. Finally i don't really think he needs arcane spellcasting in the build.

[Rejusu]

I came up with a build with this kind of theme not too long ago:
Human Bard (though human paragon or anything with the right skills/saves combinations works too) 1/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Ur-priest 1/Bone Knight 10/X 4

Though really if you're going epic there's no real need for using a fast progression caster like Ur-priest, or even trying to get into UP or BK so early.

Bone Knight is a very good fit for the theme but keep in mind it's a bit useless if you plan to make him actually undead. Although remember that despite the name "The Lich King" is not actually a Lich.

[docnessuno]

That's why i suggested the Death Knight template in MM2, if fits the LK extraordinary well.
About the bone knight, i would not call him 'useless' at all, some of the class features (bone march, summon skeletal steed, master of the white banner, etc) fit the theme very well. Also the class allows to portray the "Paladin to evil guy" conversion without being stuck with fallen paladin or blackguard levels.

[Rift_Wolf]

Pathfinder has the Graveknight (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/graveknight.html#_graveknight), a set of armour that overtakes the person wearing it. Very Lich King-y (I never played Frozen Throne, so I don't know if Arthas is still in control or if Nerzhul overtook him completely.)

[dantiesilva]

That might actually work? What does everyone think about remaking the malkonvoker for undead?

[Rejusu]

That's why i suggested the Death Knight template in MM2, if fits the LK extraordinary well.
About the bone knight, i would not call him 'useless' at all, some of the class features (bone march, summon skeletal steed, master of the white banner, etc) fit the theme very well. Also the class allows to portray the "Paladin to evil guy" conversion without being stuck with fallen paladin or blackguard levels.

Oh I never meant it was a useless class, it's just far less useful on an undead character. Maybe not completely useless but definitely getting there. A huge part of the Bone Knight is the undead-like immunities you gain from your bone armour. If you get those immunities from being undead a big portion of your class features essentially become dead weight.

I mean the thing that saves it from being worthless on an undead is that there's actually no requirement that a Bone Knight actually wear Bonecraft armour. If there was it'd actually become a hindrance, as you'd have to wear armour that can't be made out of any special materials, you couldn't use any armour you loot, and would kill you if it's removed or destroyed (after level 8 BK anyway) without actually really gaining anything from it.

Still without the benefits Bonecraft Armour give I wouldn't rate BK that highly. With them though it's a really solid PrC.

[Suddo]

From what I understood Arthas and the Lich King were two seperate people. The Lich King was actually bound to his suit of armor and sword and Arthas was a Paladin who fell and put on the armor of the Lich King basically fusing them together.
I'd do something like Arthas being a Death Knight Fallen Paladin maybe Crusader, he showed some basic spellcasting but not a lot in his own divine power. The Lich King on the other had is either a Sorc or a Cleric bound to an item he might be a lich but its kind of irrelevant. You might argue that the Lich King transferred his powers as a lich and his spellcasting when Arthas donned the armor this gave a would be Death Knight the spellcasting and abilities of a powerful lich.

That's how I'd do it, because in the end if Arthas gave up the armor and sword he would loss the power of the Lich King and actually be effect by a Quest like spell to return the sword to the armor.

[Karoht]

Look up on wowpedia.org and you might find the D20 version they released, or at the very least a kick in the right direction to finding it.

Also, I would look up the encounter from WoW (also on wowpedia.org) for some thematic elements. It truly was one of the best boss encounters in the game, there's a reason for it.

[docnessuno]

Also, I would look up the encounter from WoW (also on wowpedia.org) for some thematic elements. It truly was one of the best boss encounters in the game, there's a reason for it.

Agree (Tanked a top150 25mHC world kill and server first), but i don't think the boss fight itself would translate very well into D&D

[Rift_Wolf]

I think PF Antipaladin/Sorcerer (for necromancy spells like Trap the Soul) would work well for Arthas, with the Graveknight being added on for the Lich King. Graveknight deals extra cold damage, can control 5HD of undead per hit dice it has (This is on top of class abilities, if you chose to command undead), and a lot of other nice bits like stat boosts and feats.

If you wanted to go full antipaladin, you could make the trap the soul an effect of Frostmourne rather than a spell he casts. I haven't played Frozen Throne, so the only time I remember him using Trap the Soul is in WoW, and then it was kind of implied the sword did it.

Undead Antipaladins are fun. PF undead get extra HP for high Charisma, there's a lot of negative energy abilities that heal the undead that Antipaladins get, plus they get access to animate dead. Remember that most mindless undead won't attack nonliving creatures unless directed, so you can animate far more than you can control without many repercussions (This fits with the Lich King idea; from what I remember, although he created all the undead in Frostrend, he doesn't have direct control over that many.)

[Karoht]

Agree (Tanked a top150 25mHC world kill and server first), but i don't think the boss fight itself would translate very well into D&DAspects of it might, but agreed, not all of that fight would translate well.
Still, when you want inspiration, go to the source right?

The one thing I would want most of all, to remain from that fight, is when Frostmourne pulls a person/the entire group into it for a moment, and they have to fight their way out. THAT is just so iconic and awesome, to resist a soul sucking weapon. And for a DnD party to face that and win, even if it were easy to do, would still be pretty kick ass.

Maybe keep the Valkyr flinging people off. Maybe. But that would rely on the DM somehow preventing things like flight in the first place somehow, or it just wouldn't be as cool or threatening.

Again, that page on wowpedia.org should be extremely helpful.


EDIT: Fully agree with the notion of Anti-Paladin. At least a few levels of it.


Unhallow and Desecrate. Yes, they are easy enough for a high level party to deal with, but trust me, have them already up and perminent where ever it is you choose to fight this guy. Yes, this is probably necromancy 101 stuff, but I see so many DM's completely forget about it until the fight starts.

[Waker]

Well, my build would probably be something along the lines of Bone Knight/RKV, but as that has been done already I'll take a different route.

Cleric 6/Prestige Paladin 3/Bone Knight 1/Winterhaunt of Iborighu 10/Legacy Champion 10 (progressing Bone Knight)
Cleric Domains: Cold, Undeath

[dantiesilva]

Cleric does do paladin better in d&d,the problem is the domains would not work, because you are taking it as he was always evil and thus never fell. War and strength as much as I hate them would fit better for the fact of clearing up a feat for one. And two...Actually drop strength for healing. Now that still kills you in the long run for feats unless retraining is allowed. Prestige paladin, though better than a regular paladin, is not worth it when a crusader is just as good and without magic.

Bone Knight 1/Winterhaunt of Iborighu 10/Legacy Champion 10 (progressing Bone Knight)

The rest seems solid, but then again I don't have my books infront of me so I'm going of memory.

@Karoht
That soul sucking thing sounds amazing how it pulls them into the blade and they have to fight there way out. My only questions is what do they fight? The souls already taken from other victims? As for anti paladin I need to actually read the pf book i just bought.

And well grave knight for the win.

[dantiesilva]

It looks like he also has the rage ability of a barbarian on wiki

[Karoht]

@Karoht
That soul sucking thing sounds amazing how it pulls them into the blade and they have to fight there way out. My only questions is what do they fight? The souls already taken from other victims?Yes, actually.
But seriously, look up the fight on wowpedia.org
Just type Lich King into the search field. Not only will it give you literally EVERYTHING about him from WC3, it will give you the fight details from WoW and I'm very certain it references his D20 sheet as well.

In a nutshell, you fight him at the top of Icecrown Citadel, at the Frozen Throne itself. It's not a big platform but it is open air.
He's constantly hitting the group with a Disease, summons up Undead Frost Giants, and his Valkyr (undead angelic looking creatures) who pick up players and fling them of the side. He blasts part of the platform apart, summons up vengeful spirits, and flings Frozen Orbs at the party which explode on contact and fling people off the platform, while unleashing arcs of Shadow power from Frostmourne at the party. He constantly Defiles the area (not Defile from DnD, check it out), summons up a storm of vengful spirits who explode on people, and sucks people into his rune sword Frostmourne, where they must fight other spirits trapped within the blade in order to escape.

This on top of the fact that he hits with his attacks like a bus.

Seriously, go to wowpedia.org, check it out. It is a very cool read.


@Rage Mechanic
Yeah. I think he does 4x the damage if he hits the enrage timer. He literally just overpowers the tank, and starts insta-gibbing people if you get to that point. It's a mechanic that works for MMO's but not so well in DnD.

[Waker]

I had considered the choice of domains as being appropriate for the Lich King rather than for Arthas the Paladin, but there are methods to devote yourself to a new deity and thereby chose new domains. PHBII has the details on pg193. My reasoning for each class and the theorized progression for Arthas is as follows.
1-6 Cleric: In Warcraft, the Paladin tradition is still rather new, having originally been Priests trained in combat and the art of war. The first Paladins didn't arrive until the Second War, whereas the events of the Frozen Throne, when Arthas fell, took place a mere 15 years later. Thus it makes a great deal of sense for him to have started his career as a Cleric. Plus the Cleric class is just stronger than the Paladin class...
7-9 Prestige Paladin: Arthas receives his Paladin diploma. When walking on stage, he opts to wear nothing under his ceremonial armor and regrets the decision for days. Also the events of the 3rd game start and he starts battling the undead. Eventually he heads to Northrend where...
10 Bone Knight: Arthas takes up Frostmourne and is forever tainted by it. He forsakes the Light and begins serving the Frozen Throne.
11-20 Legacy Champion (Bone Knight): Arthas continues his decent into darkness and masters the powers of Frostmourne. He kills a whole lotta people and raises many as the undead. All and all, he's just a big downer.
21-30 Witherhaunt of Iborighu: His prolonged exposure to the magic of he wields have changed Arthas. Eventually he ascends the Frozen Throne and dons the armor there. Rather than having him go undead like everyone expects, the Winterhaunt class instead turns him into an elemental of cold and evil, which I think makes him more unique, plus he can't be turned and is immune to many effects that deal extra damage against undead.

[Karoht]

I had considered the choice of domains as being appropriate for the Lich King rather than for Arthas the Paladin, but there are methods to devote yourself to a new deity and thereby chose new domains. PHBII has the details on pg193. My reasoning for each class and the theorized progression for Arthas is as follows.
1-6 Cleric: In Warcraft, the Paladin tradition is still rather new, having originally been Priests trained in combat and the art of war. The first Paladins didn't arrive until the Second War, whereas the events of the Frozen Throne, when Arthas fell, took place a mere 15 years later. Thus it makes a great deal of sense for him to have started his career as a Cleric. Plus the Cleric class is just stronger than the Paladin class...
7-9 Prestige Paladin: Arthas receives his Paladin diploma. When walking on stage, he opts to wear nothing under his ceremonial armor and regrets the decision for days. Also the events of the 3rd game start and he starts battling the undead. Eventually he heads to Northrend where...
10 Bone Knight: Arthas takes up Frostmourne and is forever tainted by it. He forsakes the Light and begins serving the Frozen Throne.
11-20 Legacy Champion (Bone Knight): Arthas continues his decent into darkness and masters the powers of Frostmourne. He kills a whole lotta people and raises many as the undead. All and all, he's just a big downer.
21-30 Witherhaunt of Iborighu: His prolonged exposure to the magic of he wields have changed Arthas. Eventually he ascends the Frozen Throne and dons the armor there. Rather than having him go undead like everyone expects, the Winterhaunt class instead turns him into an elemental of cold and evil, which I think makes him more unique, plus he can't be turned and is immune to many effects that deal extra damage against undead.
This. This right here. This looks pretty darned spot on.
The elemental of Evil and Cold works on so many levels. No Turning/Channeling is easy to get around though, if the party Cleric/Oracle took one feat such as Alignment Channel or Elemental Channel. But it will throw people for a loop when he doesn't show up on Detect Undead. At which point people will probably just assume that he's still a Humanoid. Bwaaahahah. Oh the possibilities.

[dantiesilva]

Wouldn't the battle priest then be a better Prc then a paladin. It even gets the war domain.