[M2:TW] Claiming Rome for the HRE

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I've struggled with playing the Holy Roman Empire in Medieval II: Total War for a while. There are a lot of guides about them, mostly suggesting things like knocking the Danes out of the picture early, or going for the jugular with Milan and Venice, but there's one thing that none seem to address: that sooner or later you must attack Rome. How do you balance allying with the Pope early on so your rivals get excommunicated when they attack you with basically stabbing him in the back to take Rome for yourself? And when should you try to claim Rome?

The last few times I tried, I failed because basically I didn't want to put myself in a compromising, excommunicated position by declaring war on the Papal States, and the clock ran down. The HRE is the only faction I know of that has this problem. Most of the other Catholic factions just need to gun for Jerusalem (or Constantinople if you're one of the Italian factions), and can be buddy-buddy with the Papal States right up to the end, and the Muslim and Orthodox factions don't even have to worry about it. The HRE is the only Catholic faction forced into actual conflict with the Pope, as Rome is their requirement for a campaign win.

What am I to do?

[Shovah]

Get the rest of your campaign goals dealt with and then just march directly on Rome before anyone has a chance to react?

[J.Gellert]

Unless you are trying to roleplay (so to speak) by managing a realistic-size HRE, you can just take grab half the world and reach a point where you no longer care about being excommunicated.

Gain favor with the pope to the point where the other catholic factions are eclipsed, and when they are crippled and can't harm you, go get Rome. The pope will realize too late the mistake in trusting you :smalltongue:

Also, I'm with the "go for the jugular with Milan and Venice" crowd, simply because these two can get ridiculously strong as the game progresses - they have strong militia units and the auto-resolve favors them heavily. The sooner they are done with, the better, otherwise you will be dealing with a Milanese empire in a couple decades...

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Unless you are trying to roleplay (so to speak) by managing a realistic-size HRE, you can just take grab half the world and reach a point where you no longer care about being excommunicated.

Gain favor with the pope to the point where the other catholic factions are eclipsed, and when they are crippled and can't harm you, go get Rome. The pope will realize too late the mistake in trusting you :smalltongue:
I guess I'm just to trained by making my basic conquests to get myself established and then setting sail for Jerusalem immediately after that so I just have the territory requirements to deal with. I know with my last campaign where I attacked the Pope (I was playing as France), it was only because I'd literally conquered the rest of Europe and there were no other Catholic factions left to rescue the Pope from me. I'd already met the campaign goal and was just killing time until the New World was discovered. I can't do that with the HRE, however, as taking Rome IS their campaign goal, so unless I cheated I can't conquer the whole of Europe in the time allotted.

Also, I'm with the "go for the jugular with Milan and Venice" crowd, simply because these two can get ridiculously strong as the game progresses - they have strong militia units and the auto-resolve favors them heavily. The sooner they are done with, the better, otherwise you will be dealing with a Milanese empire in a couple decades...
Having played as both, I'm inclined to agree with you.

[Crow]

I changed my desc_strat to be 2 turns per year. Had plenty of time then (and generals aged more realistically!).

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No offense, Crow, but what does that have to do with the question I asked? Don't get me wrong, it's interesting, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the Rome issue.

Also, how does it make them age more realistically? :smallconfused:

[Crow]

No offense, Crow, but what does that have to do with the question I asked? Don't get me wrong, it's interesting, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the Rome issue.

Also, how does it make them age more realistically? :smallconfused:

Well you said you weren't sure if you could conquer Europe in the time allotted. This fixes that.

Unmodded, your generals age 1 year every 2 game turns. By going to a winter/summer (2 turns per year) setup, your generals age the same as the rest of the world. So you don't have generals who command armies for 112 years, and it doesn't take 20+ years to travel to the holy land. It also extends the time limit to complete your objectives.

Also, if you're really having trouble with taking Rome without political problems, plug a gazillion spies in there and wait for it to rebel. Then 'liberate' it from the rebels.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well you said you weren't sure if you could conquer Europe in the time allotted. This fixes that.

Unmodded, your generals age 1 year every 2 game turns. By going to a winter/summer (2 turns per year) setup, your generals age the same as the rest of the world. So you don't have generals who command armies for 112 years, and it doesn't take 20+ years to travel to the holy land. It also extends the time limit to complete your objectives.

Also, if you're really having trouble with taking Rome without political problems, plug a gazillion spies in there and wait for it to rebel. Then 'liberate' it from the rebels.
I see. How do you fix that again?

And I like this "spy idea." I'll start making one of my cities a "spy center" and begin churning them out and training them so I can get them into Rome. Do assassins work for the same purpose?

For some reason, no one wants to ally with me despite all that I'm offering. I even offered land I'd taken from the Venetians and still the Pope is like "We don't see a need for an alliance."

[Ivellius]

Well, the diplomacy system is...difficult, to say the least. If you have hardly anything in the way of territory other nations won't make deals with you. On the other other hand, if you have a lot of territory then it doesn't matter very much what you do because you can steamroll everyone.

If I'm not mistaken, if you declare war on the Pope and then kill him you'll lose the excommunication penalty. It's been a while since I've played that, though--I go to Europa Universalis 3 for that itch these days.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It's just that at this fragile state (I've beaten Denmark into submission and driven the Venetians out of Venice, but have yet to challenge Milan, and I've also started a colony in the Holy Land by crusading to Jerusalem), I don't want to have other nations crusading on me for the Pope, and I get the feeling that if I attack the Pope now, the Papal States will NEVER want to ally with me, which will REALLY hamstring expansion efforts in Europe because I'll risk excommunication every time I attack someone.

[J.Gellert]

It's just that at this fragile state (I've beaten Denmark into submission and driven the Venetians out of Venice, but have yet to challenge Milan, and I've also started a colony in the Holy Land by crusading to Jerusalem), I don't want to have other nations crusading on me for the Pope, and I get the feeling that if I attack the Pope now, the Papal States will NEVER want to ally with me, which will REALLY hamstring expansion efforts in Europe because I'll risk excommunication every time I attack someone.

No worries about that, it's easy to regain favor with the pope.

1. Destroy Rome
2. Kill the Pope
3. Gift the new Pope a far-away Province you acquired for him
4. Profit!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well...the Pope doesn't have a strong army yet. Should I just bite the bullet and attack now?

[ufo]

Rome and the Pope's army isn't your greatest concern. While it's no certainty that it will happen, you must be prepared for every catholic nation attacking you simultaneously.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's what I'm afraid of. Though this early no one really has the organization to do so, since they're busy attacking rebel territories. And Venice is already excommunicated for attacking me.

[Dsurion]

My usual strategy is to cut off any territorial expansion the Pope might try to make (so take Florence before the Papal States get there), leaving them with only Rome, then send in enough spies to get a 100% chance to open their gates in a siege, then send 1-2 full stacks of infantry in (preferably attacking from opposite ends), so that you can assault the city and take it in one fell swoop. Since the current Pope will die, a new election will be held. Either vote for one of your own Cardinals, or one from a friendly faction, and you're excommunications status will likely be gone within the same turn.

All of that is in my experience, and may not necessarily work all the time.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That's kind of the setup I have. I took Florence and have a 106% chance of the Rome's gate opening thanks to all the spies I have in there...except the Pope isn't IN Rome at all. For some reason, he's at the head of a large Papal army wandering around the map for no clear reason. I could take Rome now, easily, as he's left the city barely defended. But I wouldn't be able to kill him in the siege, at least not until the first Papal election (it's still Gregory, the first Pope in the game, at the moment).

They did this in the last game I played, as France. For some reason the Papal States army marched by land from Rome to Algiers (crossing Milanese, French, Portuguese, Spanish and Moorish territory to get there). There wasn't even a Crusade declared or anything. They just seemed to get a conquering itch and emptied the city of defenders, probably using all the money I gifted them as their ally to build those troops.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

And they did it again! I completed the Long Campaign requirements, but found that the Pope, for some reason, engaged in an overland campaign against the Moors and took Algiers from them. Now they're engaged in a war against Spain, which has been excommunicated.

I don't get what the Papal States' obsession with Algiers is. All I know is that to take over the world I'm now going to be engaged in another war with the Papal States to solidify my hold on North Africa.