Need a "good" bad build for 3.5

[Seatbelt]

My game wrapped up last week and after we finish playtesting 5e we're going to be starting a new campaign. I'm looking for ideas for builds that fall squarely in the T3 range. I'm looking at a few different things including tomb of battle.


But I really like "bad" prestiege classes like War Priest. The intended entry is probably cleric x or paladin x or something like that. But I always thought you could use War Priest to make some of the T4 or T5 classes better. Or at least more interesting. I was hoping that you lot could give me some suggestions for multiclassing or prc'ing that use some of the interesting but not very powerful classes that would get me a character around T3.

I like melee - I make a lot of "heroic knight" type characters. But I'll play anything really. I've never played a rogue/skillful type or a barbarian type. I enjoy Lawful Evil.

I would be really interested in those spellcasting classes that make you lose too many caster levels. Especially if you could shoehorn them on to something that would be improved by getting access to magic but isn't a caster (so the obvious 'enter with straight wizard' entry is not what I'm looking for).

I like having options - so a couple or three tricks I could do that aren't just "hit this guy" would be ideal. This campaign could run 1-20 and I don't want to be doing exactly the same thing for 20 levels. I *will* be bored. (that said we might do it as 12-16, and I'd be fine hitting things for 4 levels).

[Rejusu]

Generally a PrC is only objectively bad if it makes what you're applying it to worse no matter what you apply it to. Meaning there's no way a genuinely bad PrC can improve a bad base class. But just because a PrC doesn't improve every class it could feasibly be entered with or even makes some of them worse doesn't make it bad. Provided at least there are entries to it which it improves or at the very least doesn't make any worse.

But either way if you want to play something that's around tier 3 but want to use something "bad" you've got two options:
Use a higher tier class with a prestige class that makes it worse to the point of dropping it a tier or two.
OR
Use a low tier class with a prestige class that improves it a tier or two.

You can't really use a bad base class and a bad prestige class though if you want something around tier 3. Try SonOfZeals tier system for prestige classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618). Pick something T1-2 and use a down 1-2 tier PrC or pick something T4-5 and use an up 1-2 tier PrC.

[Darrin]

But I really like "bad" prestiege classes like War Priest. The intended entry is probably cleric x or paladin x or something like that. But I always thought you could use War Priest to make some of the T4 or T5 classes better. Or at least more interesting. I was hoping that you lot could give me some suggestions for multiclassing or prc'ing that use some of the interesting but not very powerful classes that would get me a character around T3.


Too bad there isn't some kind of ongoing competition to take bad PrCs and make them more interesting...

Oh, wait. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052)

(They haven't done War Priest yet, though.)

[Venger]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243052

iron chef challenges are a cornucopia of "bad" prcs retooled into usefulness. there's links to all the previous entries there, many of them fit your bill, and you can look over the entries for ideas of sample builds.

the prc tier list is also pretty helpful. obviously there's some degree of subjectivity here, especially when compared to the base class tier list, since you obviously can't enter most PrCs "straight" as it were.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3876.0

[Orsen]

Occult Slayer is a half decent prestige class. It doesn't give you too much but being able to reflect spells once or twice a day is nice. The prereqs aren't too bad either, Weapon Focus (meh) and Improved Initiative (no problem!).
Try going into bone knight with mostly fighter or something as your background?
What about War Mind?

[ThiagoMartell]

Man, why so many people say Tomb of Battle instead of Tome of Battle? Is is a joke or something? :smallconfused:

[togapika]

There's Always the dragon disciple...

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Unarmed Swordsage Drunken Master. Yeah, flaming chair :smallcool:

[docnessuno]

Instead of 'de-powering' a good base class with a bad PRC you can look at the opposite, taking a low-tier class and improving it with PRCs

Example: Decisive strike monk going into war mind

[Andorax]

I once played in an OA Play-by-Post campaign where I had a Sorcerer/Shugenja (with a fire emphasis on both sides) headed towards Mystic Theurge. Borrowed some Rokugan D20 material and had both my (improved) familiar and my favored kami be one-in-the-same, dwelling inside an iron lantern I carried around and occasionally appeased by scribing scrolls and feeding them to the flame.


'course I also had the flaw "Arcane Performer" and Perform (poetry). Each of my spells was "cast" in haiku. Only in a play-by-post could I have ever gotten away with it.

[Venger]

Man, why so many people say Tomb of Battle instead of Tome of Battle? Is is a joke or something? :smallconfused:

because people seldom write the word "tome" and don't know how to spell it. they write out "tomb" and it's not autocorrected. they assume that it rhymes with "comb" and thus is pronounced like "tome", it's not a joke that you're unaware of, just a typo thing.

[Glimbur]

There's Always the dragon disciple...

That actually works out pretty well with Suel Arcanamch, or any other class that is spont arcane and only 10 levels long. Alternately, dip Sorcerer or Bard on an Ur Priest build so you can take Dragon Disciple and add extra 9th level spells to your Ur Priest casting.

[Lateral]

because people seldom write the word "tome" and don't know how to spell it. they write out "tomb" and it's not autocorrected. they assume that it rhymes with "comb" and thus is pronounced like "tome", it's not a joke that you're unaware of, just a typo thing.

'Tome' and 'tome' are not that uncommon, or all that hard to not mix up. If they want a word that's pronounced 'tome', then... I don't see why people don't write it phonetically. You know, as 'tome.' For what you said to make any sense, you'd have to:

not know how to spell 'tome', but know that it is a word and how it is pronounced
know that 'tomb' is how you spell a word, but not know what it means or how it's pronounced
not know how to spell things phonetically


Frankly, I find 'people make brain farts' a far more reasonable explanation.

[Rubik]

Man, why so many people say Tomb of Battle instead of Tome of Battle? Is is a joke or something? :smallconfused:I think he means Libris Mortis.

[Togo]

Try something that isn't supposed to work, and make it work through optimisation

High charisma fighter
(Try barbarian/marshal/fighter/occultslayer/divine champion/contemplative)
Focus on trip, grapple, etc.

Familiar based wizard
(play a wizard, take as many familiar-boosting feats and spells as you can find, prc into alienist, drop your wisdom to something tiny, defer to the familiar in all things as he has more sense (higher wisdom) and all your skills. Bonus points if you can arrange a familiar large enough that you can ride on it's shoulder)

[Marlowe]

I suppose you could take Cleric to level 8, dip a martial class for the proficiencies, and then go into Divine Crusader.

Congratulations! You're now starting your spellcasting progression all over again! Based on a different stat!

Silliest decision ever. Worst thing is that it'll still be a powerful character. Worse than just about any other Cleric PrC progression, but still powerful.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paladin 4/ Bone Knight 4/ Divine Crusader 1/ Bone Knight 6/ PrCs 5, with the Wrath domain and progressing Divine Crusader casting. It's technically a Tier 4, though Bone Knight isn't rated and it can be brought up one or more tiers by dipping prestige classes that add more domains, such as Seeker of the Misty Isle and Contemplative. Plus you've got turn uses to power DMM: Persist for your buffs, and if you get Destiny via Contemplative you'll be able to do Persistent Choose Destiny. It's definitely the 'heroic knight' that you're used to playing, and with Bone Knight you'll have plenty of freedom to play the alignment you like.

Crusader 4/ Sanctified Mind 1/ War Mind 10/ Sanctified Mind 5, you'll need to use a psionic race or Wild/Hidden Talent and plan where to spend your early skill points very carefully. With Practiced Manifester you'll have a manifester level of 19/20 for bonus powerpoints and augmenting limits. You can swap out some or all of the Crusader levels for anything that gets full BAB, as long as you get the proper proficiencies and enough skill points to qualify for everything. Definitely use the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel if possible to get Iron Will so you won't have to spend a feat on it. This build can be extremely feat starved, especially if you get Martial Study/Stance for higher level maneuvers/stances and/or Expanded Knowledge for different powers. I'd go for Psicrystal Affinity and Expanded Knowledge: Share Pain to use on it every day, keep Vigor active and shared with it, and don't forget it has Hardness 8. Another 'heroic knight' but of a different sort, and you don't have as much alignment freedom but it definitely has tons of options and tricks.

[Cespenar]

Battle Sorcerer 5/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Master of the Unseen Hand 4/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 4.

Move 1: Polymorph into something Huge, and grapple 3-4 people at range simultaneously thanks to Full Attack Telekinesis.

Move 2: Polymorph into something with high Str, fly above people and full attack bull rush them into the ground.

You can also do them without Polymorph for Darth Vader effect, but Polymorph gives the moves the real oomph.

[Seatbelt]

Is there a way to get Inspire Courage on a caster other than bard, and if so is there a way to stack it with Song of the White Raven? I'm investigating A Bardsader with Bladesinger, but If I'm going to be advancing spellcasting I'd like to advance a better list than Bard's

[ThiagoMartell]

Is there a way to get Inspire Courage on a caster other than bard, and if so is there a way to stack it with Song of the White Raven? I'm investigating A Bardsader with Bladesinger, but If I'm going to be advancing spellcasting I'd like to advance a better list than Bard's

Why? :smallconfused: Bard's list is pretty good.

[Rubik]

If you've got UMD you can get the master fiddle (from Savage Species, pg 58) that gives you the bardic music of a 9th level bard.

[Seatbelt]

Why? :smallconfused: Bard's list is pretty good.

yeah I went through and looked at it more. I feel silly for saying that. :P

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Prestige Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigeBard) advances any arcane spellcasting. You sort of want access to the Bard spell list for Inspirational Boost, though.

Paladin with the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 1 substitution level gets Inspire Courage, but it doesn't advance by levels so Song of the White Raven wouldn't be of much use.

With War Chanter, you're probably best off to take no more than five levels for Combine Songs. See if you can combine Inspire Courage for flat bonuses to attack and damage with a second Inspire Courage with Dragonfire Inspiration, and use a single Inspirational Boost and a single Badge of Valor use for both since they're combined into one song. This is easy to duplicate without a single level of War Chanter if you have a Harmonizing weapon (MIC) and/or the Lingering Song feat, you just have to spend an extra round making the second song. War Chanter may be able to save you some time and item/spell uses though, but if not then it's really not even worth using.

The build would be extremely feat intensive, requiring Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, Song of the White Raven, Dragonfire Inspiration, and Extra Granted Maneuver if using Crusader, all as early as possible. You'll also want Song of the Heart, which can replace Suggestion from Bard 6, Practiced Spellcaster, Melodic Casting, Words of Creation if good aligned, plus whatever combat feats. You'll also need a Dragonblood race such as Silverbrow Human, otherwise add Dragontouched to the list.

I would actually skip Song of the White Raven, since the action economy benefit is irrelevant with Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor, and you're better off finishing the build with Jade Phoenix Mage than trying to get a higher bonus out of Inspire Courage. To get all those feats you'll want to use two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), which have to be taken during character creation. If you start higher than 1st level, you can take flaws at a higher level, and thus use them to gain feats that you wouldn't have qualified for at 1st.

I'd go Silverbrow Human, Bard 4/ Crusader 1/ War Chanter 5/ Jade Phoenix Mage 10, with Dragonfire Inspiration (1), Combat Expertise (1), Song of the Heart (3), Weapon Focus (f), Extra Granted Maneuver (f), Words of Creation (6), Improved Trip (9), Knock-Down (12), Practiced Spellcaster (15), and Melodic Casting (18). Your Inspire Courage will be +7 and +7d6, or if War Chanter improves your Inspire Courage bonus it will be +9 and +9d6. You'll have a few useful Bard spells including Haste later, which a Circlet of Rapid Casting (MIC) and Lesser Rods of Extend can help with. The character will have an extremely strong fire theme, between JPM and Desert Wind maneuvers and DFI, but it could turn out to be a weakness if you run into fire-immune opponents. If you start out below 10th level, get a +1 Harmonizing weapon so you can still have both the regular Inspire Courage and the Dragonfire Inspiration going every encounter.

[Metahuman1]

I kinda liked the idea of the swordsage drunken master. I'd see about adding Factotum 3 too it. That way your that Drunk off his but Dude who can be the party's Ninja/trap expert, and with shadow hand stuff and weapons finesse along with brains over brawn's you can take a dump on Str.

For added Kicks, Be Hak Fu. Give your maneuvers even more over the top names then Tome of Battle already did and deliberately, for no reason other then RP of this specific character, insist on saying them in character every time you use one. On top of drunken master and Factotum's tricks to the build, this should make for a very memorable time. =)




Here's another Knightly idea.

Factotum 2/Barbarian 3/ Crusaider 14/ Something else Spiffy 1.

You take able learner and keep search maxed, and get travel devotion for swift action movement, meaning right after a charge you can get clear to set up another one. Use Night sticks + Opportunistic Piety to fuel it the latter.

Now, from Barbarian you get Trap killer, Improved Trip with out a feat prereq, and pounce, and rage/whirling frenzied for the fun of it here and there. Do you as the knightly type can safely be at the front of the party to lead, lead the charge, and take your weapon to any puny trap that get's in your way with the power of your mountain hammer maneuver! And you can also have some social skills so that when it's time to talk you can help with that, giving you a pretty solid list to things you can give a hand with.

For that 1 open level, I like either Dragonfire adept 1 to get that Invocation were you can detect magic at will and Identify Magic Items for free at will, (Yeah, that's really 1 invocation.), or if the DM is nice, taking Factotum 3. Here, nice is defined as "He's willing to let you use Brains over Brawn to fuel combat reflexes, meaning you can take out AOO's and still safely dump dex, which meshes nicely with improved trip form barbarian and perhaps Knock down and/or Stand still, which means you've got something other then charging or maneuver spam to contribute to a fight. Super nice is he's also willing to let you take Faerie Mysteries Initiate or a modified ritual of blood and Dump Con, meaning now you only Need Str, Int, and Cha or Str, Cha, Int, in one or the other order.

[ericgrau]

Dragon disciple makes for good melee. I think people must be reading the SRD instead of the DMG when they dare use it for casting.

Flipping things around the other way, a swift blade on a caster might be so good that it's too good for you. But it is partial casting per your request so I'll continue. Be a swiftblade without the blade. Use caster 6 as your entry method and forget about weapon proficiencies. Yes, your caster level is behind, but once you start casting 3 spells a round you'll see what I mean. 2 of those are standard action spells, the 3rd is a regular quickened spell, quickened haste or quickened time stop (with a partial version available as a mere 6th level spell). I'd say multiple spells are well worth being a little behind. Among the many ways to abuse time stop try dropping multiple walls of force to box some foes, as a huge sized forcecage without blowing 1,500 gp.

[Amphetryon]

Man, why so many people say Tomb of Battle instead of Tome of Battle? Is is a joke or something? :smallconfused:

Because so many DMs swear that the huge power spike for melee in Tome of Battle will be the death of them.

[Toliudar]

Because so many DMs swear that the huge power spike for melee in Tome of Battle will be the death of them.

I suggest that this is the same source as that of the much-maligned base class Rouge.

[Misery Esquire]

I suggest that this is the same source as that of the much-maligned base class Rouge.

Red OP. Go blue.