Need Serious Help with a Telflammar Shadowlord

[McToomin]

So basically, this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244656) inspired me to create a Telflammar Shadowlord. I didn't want to take over that thread though so I'm making a new one. Basically, I have no idea how to make it happen. Here's what I want from the build:

An unarmed fighter...
who gets Shadow Pounce as early as possible...
and has good enough spellcasting to cast the teleportation spells I need (and greater mighty whallop...

Obviously, I'm going for a Nightcrawler-like character who can teleport and get up to three full attacks per round (with swift, move, and standard action teleports). Credit to Phoenix00 at brilliantgameologists for the following list of spells:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now at first glance it may look like psionics are awesome teleporters, but wizards are still better teleporters

For swift action they got Abrupt Jaunt, Shadow Cloak (Drow of the Underdark), Belt of Battle (Magic Item Compedium), Circle of Rapid Casting (Magic Item Compedium)

For move actions you have Dimension Jumper (Wizard/Sorc 5) cast as a swift action but for the rest of combat 1/round you can teleport as a move action.

For standard actions there are multiple spells you can use.
Benign Transposition (Wiz/Sorc 1) Spell Compedium
Baleful Transposition (Wiz/Sorc 2) Spell Compedium
Dimension Leap (Wiz/Sorc 2) Magic of Eberron
Dimension Hop (Wiz/Sorc 2) Players Handbook 2
Dimension Step (Wiz/Sorc 3) Players Handbook 2
Dimension Door (Wiz/Sorc 4) Core
Teleport (Wiz/Sorc 5) Core
etc

Plus with Arcane you have lots of metamagic, Arcane Fusion, and Polymorph.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So yeah. I'll probably be taking Superior Unarmed Strike, so I wouldn't worry much about Monk. Monk can get several of the feats for free, but I won't be using the other abilities, and Fighter can get the feats too with full BAB.

I'd also like to avoid things that aren't RAW, or things that require DM fiat or what have you. However, my group generally plays Pathfinder with 3.5 stuff converted over (usually with no changes), so I will be using Pathfinder where appropriate or beneficial (such as with feats, or ). Here's kind of what I had in mind:

Some race with the Shadow-Walker template, let's go with Strongheart Halfling since I have a thing for Small races (yes, even though it's an unarmed fighter :P)


1 ~ Shadow-Walker template
2 ~ Sneak Attack Fighter 1 : +Trait: Magical Knack (Wizard)+, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike
3 ~ Sneak Attack Fighter 2 :
4 ~ Sneak Attack Fighter 3 : Superior Unarmed Strike
5 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 1 : Blind-Fight, Mobility
6 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 2 :
7 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 3 : Spring Attack
8 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 4 :
9 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 1 : Two-Weapon Fighting
10 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 2 :
11 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 3 : Double Slice
12 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 4 :
13 ~ Abjurant Champion 1 : Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
14 ~ Abjurant Champion 2 :
15 ~ Abjurant Champion 3 : Power Attack
16 ~ Abjurant Champion 4 :
17 ~ Abjurant Champion 5 : Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18 ~ Eldritch Knight? 1 : Cleave
19 ~ Eldritch Knight? 2 : Great Cleave
20 ~ Eldritch Knight? 3 :

That's using the wizard variant that gives Fighter bonus feats.

SA Fighter 3/Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3

This build gives me 6th-level spells and 16 BAB. However, since most spells would be devoted to teleports, lost caster levels aren't AS harmful as they could be. I'd mostly focus on low-level buffs and and try to teleport as much as possible to proc the shadow pounce. The Teleportation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/conjuration/teleportation) school of magic (from Pathfinder) gives a swift action teleport 3+Int per day at 1st level, so that's already pretty good for not having to expend spell slots. The shadow-walker template also grants dimension door that increases with Character Level. With these two, I still have some options for the shadow pounce before I start really advancing my spellcasting towards the end of the build.

I know some of the normal melee abilities don't really come online until very late levels, but I feel like this guy would make a good fighter even starting from level 1. Full BAB and sneak attack starting from first level, and then starts adding spells (not to mention the free swift action teleport, which is useful to any build), I think he'd do just fine until he reached shadow pounce.

So, looking over the build, does it have any huge holes or weaknesses? I'm kind of iffy on the feats taken after Spring Attack, although I feel like going the full two-weapon fighting tree wouldn't be bad, as even if I use my swift action for wraithstrike instead of a third teleport I can get two full attacks as touch attacks, with three additional attacks each.

But if you have any suggestions or ideas, I'd love to hear them!

[Unusual Muse]

I see a number of issues with your feats. That +1 LA counts toward your ECL for determining level progression and feats; it looks like you took your 3rd level feat at ECL 4 instead of ECL 3, for example. You need to move all of your level-granted feat slots one step earlier in your build.

Additionally, be aware that the Wizard variant that gives you the Fighter bonus feat list still only grants those feats at 1st and every 5 levels thereafter, so you wouldn't be able to get Spring Attack that early. How exactly did you get two feats (Blind-Fight AND Mobility) at what you listed as ECL 5?

EDIT: You could get Spring Attack if you took a couple flaws, or only took Mobility as your first (and only) Wizard variant fighter feat.

[ILM]

I see a number of issues with your feats. That +1 LA counts toward your ECL for determining level progression and feats; it looks like you took your 3rd level feat at ECL 4 instead of ECL 3, for example. You need to move all of your level-granted feat slots one step earlier in your build.

Additionally, be aware that the Wizard variant that gives you the Fighter bonus feat list still only grants those feats at 1st and every 5 levels thereafter, so you wouldn't be able to get Spring Attack that early. How exactly did you get two feats (Blind-Fight AND Mobility) at what you listed as ECL 5?
Um no:

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.
As for the feats, maybe he used the UA variant that gives fighter bonus feats instead of the usual ones.

edit: to OP
Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) makes everything better. In particular, with an extra standard action per round, you get an extra full attack. So let's try to shoehorn Swiftblade 9 in there. It's tough, but see if your DM will allow the Shadow Jaunt maneuver from ToB to fulfill the Teflammar Shadowlord's prerequisite. If he does, you could do something like Cobra Strike Monk 2/ Conjurer 3/ Swordsage 2 (pick up Shadow Jaunt and Assassin's stance)/ TSL 4/ Swiftblade 9. That would be pretty brutal. You only end up with 5th level spells (bummer) and 15 BAB (also bummer) so I'm sure the entry can be tweaked and improved, but the chassis' there.

[Kaje]

Have you considered the unarmed swordsage? They get the teleportation maneuvers usable every other round with Adaptive Style.

[Unusual Muse]

Huh. I was basing the LA/ECL thing off page 172 of the DMG, which says you use ECL for determining level-dependent benefits, which would seem to differ from the SRD. Is this an inconsistency, or am I just reading the DMG incorrectly?

[Unusual Muse]

This section of the SRD would seem to confirm my previous assertion (again, if I'm reading it right):


Starting Level of a Monster PC

Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Humanoids and Class Levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.
Humanoids and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four.

EDIT: Okay, my bad... I just found this:


If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

[McToomin]

As for the feats, keep in mind that I'm using Pathfinder progression, so that's a feat every odd-numbered level (although in my build it ends up even due to the template). And actually, I just noticed that at level 5, I started doing them on odd-numbered levels due to just being used to that. Also noticed that I forgot Combat Casting for Abjurant Champion. But as far as I can tell it still works:

1st level: Dodge
Halfing bonus: Improved Unarmed Strike
3rd level: Superior Unarmed Strike
Wizard bonus: Blind-Fight
5th level: Mobility
7th level: Spring Attack
9th level: Two-Weapon Fighting
11th level: Combat Casting
13th level: Double Slice
15th level: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
17th level: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Eldritch Knight 1: Cleave
19th level: Great Cleave


Changed up the level names below to make it easier to figure out.


+1 Shadow-Walker template
1 ~ Sneak Attack Fighter 1 : +Trait: Magical Knack (Wizard)+, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike
2 ~ Sneak Attack Fighter 2 :
3 ~ Sneak Attack Fighter 3 : Superior Unarmed Strike
4 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 1 : Blind-Fight
5 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 2 : Mobility
6 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 3 :
7 ~ Conjuration (Teleportation) Wizard 4 : Spring Attack
8 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 1 :
9 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 2 : Two-Weapon Fighting
10 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 3 :
11 ~ Telflammar Shadowlord 4 : Combat Casting
12 ~ Abjurant Champion 1 :
13 ~ Abjurant Champion 2 : Double Slice
14 ~ Abjurant Champion 3 :
15 ~ Abjurant Champion 4 : Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16 ~ Abjurant Champion 5 :
17 ~ Eldritch Knight? 1 : Cleave, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18 ~ Eldritch Knight? 2 :
19 ~ Eldritch Knight? 3 : Great Cleave


And basically this is just a theoretical build right now, so the only real limitation is what I would deem legal. I'll look into the Swordsage.

[Unusual Muse]

Ah... I'm not familiar with the Pathfinder rules, but if you are allowed to take Flaws, you could wedge a couple more feats in there. If so, I would suggest Shaky (since you're melee focused).

[Aeryr]

Two levels in totemist will net you a standard action teleport and a move action teleport (those act as spell-like ability)

Unarmed swordsage as mentioned has good unarmed strike progression and more teleports, and can get you assassin's stance that allows you to get 2d6 sneak attack.

For example

Human Totemist 2 / Unarmed swordsage 5

Feats
-blind fight (1)
-dodge (H)
-mobility (3)
-spring attack (6)

Stances
-Assassin stance

Qualifies for telflamar shadowlord at level 7

If you want more spellcasting with a level of bard you can trick your way into sublime chord to advance your spellcasting and then into any gish class you want.

[McToomin]

Yeah I'm not necessarily counting on flaws, but I'm definitely keeping them in mind. Like I said, it's only a theoretical build right now, but I'd love to play it in a future game.

[Piggy Knowles]

Since Totemist was mentioned, I thought I'd pop in and post my favorite shadow pounce build:

Azurin, Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) Monk 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 8

(If playing at higher levels, consider replacing the two levels of monk for two levels of fighter, so that you can hit +16 BAB. Otherwise, I would keep the monk levels for evasion and the better skills.)

You could easily replace Azurin with Strongheart Halfling if you were attached to it - trading a point of essentia for small size isn't crazy. You get all the goodness of at-will, move action teleportation from Totemist, plus hide in plain sight, full Shadowlord casting, all sorts of action shenanigans via Swiftblade, great skills, and more.

[McToomin]

I'll have to look into Incarnum, I've never seen it before. Keep in mind that as a Conjuration (Teleportation) school of magic user, I'd get a totally free 3+Int swift action teleport per day. If I go with elf or gnome, they have an alternate favored class bonus that would add two more uses to that ability.

I guess my question becomes, what do the totemist, swordsage, and swiftblade builds get that my current build does not? That's not a challenge, I'm genuinely asking since I'm not too familiar with those classes. Once again, Pathfinder rules are in effect not only for feats, but for skills as well. That means that ranks in a skill = ECL, and you just gain a +3 bonus to class skills, instead of having to spend extra ranks on the skill. So pretty much any skill is viable if you want it.

[Aeryr]

Totemist gets teleport as a spell-like ability that takes either a standard action or a move action at will (you can take both) and you can get meldshapes to improve your unarmed attacks.

Swordsage offers unarmed progression as a monk, 2d6 sneak attack and more teleports (even a teleport as a swift action) that you can use in a per encounter basis (being able to expend some time to renew them even during an encounter).

So you can use a move action to teleport (and full attack) and standard action to teleport (and full attack) every round without running out of teleports. You can even add a swift action teleport for a third full attack.

[kardar233]

I like a Clawlock base for a lot of things, but TFSL seems like a good way to go about it.

How about:
Warlock6/Swordsage1/TFSL4/Hellfire Warlock3/Swordsage6

Elan, Synad, Daelkyr Half-blood or Tibbit races are optimal, as you can get (Improved) Rapidstrike, and you should probably get Beast Strike too for completeness.

[Piggy Knowles]

Totemist gets teleport as a spell-like ability that takes either a standard action or a move action at will (you can take both) and you can get meldshapes to improve your unarmed attacks.

...

So you can use a move action to teleport (and full attack) and standard action to teleport (and full attack) every round without running out of teleports. You can even add a swift action teleport for a third full attack.

Actually, this doesn't work. The totemist ability from Blink Shirt specifically says it is as Dimension Door, which means your turn ends at the end of the teleport. Shadowlord provides a specific exception to that rule, but doesn't override it completely.

Move action teleportation is still nice - after all, you can still cast or attack, dimension door as a move action, and full attack. But it's not quite as good as you've described.

[Aeryr]

Actually, this doesn't work. The totemist ability from Blink Shirt specifically says it is as Dimension Door, which means your turn ends at the end of the teleport. Shadowlord provides a specific exception to that rule, but doesn't override it completely.

Move action teleportation is still nice - after all, you can still cast or attack, dimension door as a move action, and full attack. But it's not quite as good as you've described.

Checked the wording on dim door and you are right, then you just need a level of totemist for standard action dim door (but I'll still take two).

[ThiagoMartell]

Since Totemist was mentioned, I thought I'd pop in and post my favorite shadow pounce build:

Azurin, Rogue 1/Totemist 2/Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) Monk 2/Umbral Disciple 3/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 8


You really should take Sun School in such a build. An extra unarmed attack every time you shadowpounce.


Checked the wording on dim door and you are right, then you just need a level of totemist for standard action dim door (but I'll still take two).

Well, if you give up your last attack and teleport again before you do it, your turn does not end.