Magic Sword: Fourth Edition Reborn

[elpollo]

You refer to the wall of text about art quality?

I mean that A Cool Dog is my housemate, and should probably have his posts removed.

[Daemonhawk]

Hey, Chainsaw Hobbit, I'm not credited anywhere...

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Hey, Chainsaw Hobbit, I'm not credited anywhere...

Not yet. Your name will certainly be in an obvious place in the books. At the moment, however, I am disorganized, and don't have a list of everyone working on the project.

[Gligarman2]

Letter of Resignation:

I've left. I seriously can't believe you people would tell me I'm not able when I have already left. Seriously, rubbing salt into a completely deserved wound. Thanks for knocking me down to size. I appreciate it. I can't write. I can't draw, apparently. I don't deserve a job and I mistook my **** for art. I have failed on every possible level, and yet you still call me weak when that is an accepted fact. Perhaps I should make a webcomic or something. I really tried, but I guess success eludes me. Yeah, sorry about the pity party. I'll be cheering for you guys! But, yeah I've left. However, please keep Cabo0se. She is very talented.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Letter of Resignation:

I've left. I seriously can't believe you people would tell me I'm not able when I have already left. Seriously, rubbing salt into a completely deserved wound. Thanks for knocking me down to size. I appreciate it. I can't write. I can't draw, apparently. I don't deserve a job and I mistook my **** for art. I have failed on every possible level, and yet you still call me weak when that is an accepted fact. Perhaps I should make a webcomic or something. I really tried, but I guess success eludes me. Yeah, sorry about the pity party. I'll be cheering for you guys! But, yeah I've left. However, please keep Cabo0se. She is very talented.

I have sent you a private message. Please read it, and at least consider it.

If you do not accept, goodbye. I wish you well.

[Daemonhawk]

I'm creating a list of things that need to be done, in order of importance.

1.) Get organized/Get a Budget. We need to everybody in one area, and everybody who's working on the project on a list. We need to have a job, what we're doing, how we're doing it, and what qualifies as "completed".
We also need to determine how much everything is going to cost, and make a budget around that.
2.) The Playtest. This is CRUCIAL to our Kickstarter event, and it needs to be done ASAP if we have ANY hope getting this project done before Christmas.
3.) Quality Control. Somebody needs to determine the standard of quality we have here, and it better be higher than what we have now. I am completely
shocked over the art fiasco, and how poorly it was handled. We MUST have a standard, and people need to be able to meet that standard.
4.) Get Professionals. As soon as all of the above is completed, we need to hire some professionals. I took the initiative and asked around about some art prices, and I'll see what I turn up.

This project seriously means a lot to me, as it's the closest I've ever come to being a published author. Everybody needs to get it together, stop mixing emotions and business, and get crap done.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I'm creating a list of things that need to be done, in order of importance.

1.) Get organized/Get a Budget. We need to everybody in one area, and everybody who's working on the project on a list. We need to have a job, what we're doing, how we're doing it, and what qualifies as "completed".
We also need to determine how much everything is going to cost, and make a budget around that.
2.) The Playtest. This is CRUCIAL to our Kickstarter event, and it needs to be done ASAP if we have ANY hope getting this project done before Christmas.
3.) Quality Control. Somebody needs to determine the standard of quality we have here, and it better be higher than what we have now. I am completely
shocked over the art fiasco, and how poorly it was handled. We MUST have a standard, and people need to be able to meet that standard.
4.) Get Professionals. As soon as all of the above is completed, we need to hire some professionals. I took the initiative and asked around about some art prices, and I'll see what I turn up.

This project seriously means a lot to me, as it's the closest I've ever come to being a published author. Everybody needs to get it together, stop mixing emotions and business, and get crap done.

I meant that the playest could be done by Christmas, not the game.

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly. I screwed up. Standards WILL improve.

*cracks whip*

Everyone must get to work on the playtest!

[Daemonhawk]

I meant that the playest could be done by Christmas, not the game.

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly. I screwed up. Standards WILL improve.

*cracks whip*

Everyone must get to work on the playtest!

Thank you. Jeez. Leadership is hard to accomplish, but it needs to be done, especially with something like this. So, I'm going to go work now. Make sure those standards are up, and don't forget about Legend. Try to get some of those people.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Could you work for maybe $50 a drawing, with no royalties?

:smalleek: I didn't realize I'd come back to...well, everything between here and this.

Sorry for causing controversy...I happen to have gone to school for teaching art (though with the economy, all I've been able to find for work is being a security guard:smallannoyed:). In terms of work, I could certainly use the exposure.

As for the offer, perhaps I'll make one art and you can judge what you think it would be worth to have me? I'd prefer not to be discounted royalties, especially if I do multiple arts. It would also depend on the size, I'd say. If it was a full page, or quarter image, or so on. Does that sound resonable?

[Dark Elf Bard]

Um... wow.

It looks like people seemed to chase a young up-and-coming artist onto these boards.

'Cause he's not "professional."

It's not very professional to inslut some trying their hardest and taking up a second to job to pay for Photo shop, then saying "turns out we don't want you."

:smallannoyed: I'm really, really disappointed in you guys.

I still wanna work on this, but some of you guys really need to learn respect.

If not, I'm outta here.

Maybe you'd like that, as I'm not "professional."

:smallannoyed:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

:smalleek: I didn't realize I'd come back to...well, everything between here and this.

Sorry for causing controversy...I happen to have gone to school for teaching art (though with the economy, all I've been able to find for work is being a security guard:smallannoyed:). In terms of work, I could certainly use the exposure.

As for the offer, perhaps I'll make one art and you can judge what you think it would be worth to have me? I'd prefer not to be discounted royalties, especially if I do multiple arts. It would also depend on the size, I'd say. If it was a full page, or quarter image, or so on. Does that sound resonable?
That sounds very reasonable.


*Snip!*
I feel terrible about this. But if it makes you feel any better, I've been having a PM conversation with Gligarman2. He's taking at least a couple of months off to work hard at improving his skills. Once he is of mild-professional quality, however long that takes, he will return.

[Dark Elf Bard]

I guess. :sigh:


I'm not sure whether anyone here besides you want me here either.

[Surrealistik]

Concerning the playtest module, are my encounters still being used? Should I formulate more? Will my combat maneuvers be used?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Concerning the playtest module, are my encounters still being used? Should I formulate more? Will my combat maneuvers be used?

I like your encounters quite a bit, but concerning the current state of the playtest (the adventure having changed its premise), I don't think they will be used at this point in time. I hope for them to be somehow used later.

Your combat maneuvers, however, will certainly be used.

[Zelkon]

I don't want to discourage people, but if chainsaw is going to shell out $70 an illustration, he rightfully shouldn't have to spend it on an amateur. I mean that in the best way; I'm certainly not above him in skill level, not even close. I merely suggest that we get "real" artists; real as in people who do it professionally. I would be thrilled if he came back after honing his skills. It's just not currently professional quality. I believe he can get to professional quality or close enough to do a bit of illustrating by the end of this project.

[Surrealistik]

Well if any other encounters or mechanics specific to the playtest need to be made, let me know; I like to think of myself as proficient with 4e crunch and design.

[Zelkon]

I'm quite proficient with the math and design behind 4e (but not as much as Surrealistik. Look at the 4e punpun in his sig).

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Well if any other encounters or mechanics specific to the playtest need to be made, let me know; I like to think of myself as proficient with 4e crunch and design.


I'm quite proficient with the math and design behind 4e (but not as much as Surrealistik. Look at the 4e punpun in his sig).

Please ask Daemonhawk what he wants you to do.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not sure whether anyone here besides you want me here either.

From what I've seen, it's not a case of that. It's a case of mis-managed design intent.

Is this a casual product or a professional one? A professional one requires either professionals, or very talented amateurs. A casual product takes anyone with enough enthusiasm and/or interest, but understands that it probably will not have that professional quality at the end of the day. It might, but that's happy coincidence.

The former you fund, vet people working on it, pick the best, and manage it well...honestly, I don't think Magic Sword currently has that. I know *I* wouldn't fund what I've seen so far...it's not that organized, I haven't seen work on the level I'd expect if spending money, and so forth.

It DOES have a lot of enthusiastic amateurs working on it, which is a point in it's favor. I'd recommend cutting the idea of funding the project (I still think you'd have trouble with using terms and the basis of 4e, which is heavily protected by IP laws) and making it a professionally published work, and just go with the enthusiasm you guys have. Make it a learning process, and maybe you'll get something great, without all the hurt feelings.

Currently Magic Sword is moving in two opposing directions: Community Project, and Professional Endeavor. It needs to pick one direction, as the project will be better if it knows what it wants to be.

[Zelkon]

This has potential to be a professional product, and I think it would be better that way. You have no idea how small the difference is between a good-ish writer with a good editor and a great writer with an OK editor. Also, we're not building from the ground up. We have a mathematical foundation to work from, a good understanding of design goals, and a group of talented individuals (Surrealistik is a mechanics-evaluation god, Chainsaw is a great concepter and foundation maker, Daemonhawk keeps us on target, and I get around the Internet to learn what people want and like, which makes me a good critique-er. Plus, I have the benefit of being in the middle of a 4e heartbreaker, for whatever that's worth.)

[Daemonhawk]

If I'm staying here, people need to understand something.
I personally have high standards, even for myself. The art is the first thing people see, and I want it to look...amazing, in short. As I've said, I don't want Todd Lockwood here doing the art, but if Gilgarman02 is requesting 70USD plus royalties for the art, he better damn well be a Todd Lockwood.
And I will always speak my mind, even if it makes you cry or walk away for feel just...sad. It's the way I am, and the way I speak.
That's who I am as a person. And a LOT of people hate me for it. But I'm happy with who I am, and I plan to be this way for the rest of my time here.
And if Dark Elf Bard reads this, or Gilgarman02, know that, you're not bad artists, you're just not up to my standards for 70USD a print, and that's why I pushed Guilgarman02 so much. He's not a bad artist that's reached his limit, he just needs more practice.

So here's an idea. Gilgarman02 should take some time to work on his art. We release a playtest with NO art, and give the artists a chance to work on what they're doing, because they're going in the right direction. And I like it.
Once we release the playtest, and people get a real "taste" of what Magic Sword is all about, we give the artists a fair chance to produce 1 or 2 really good pieces each, and release that as an "art preview". I'm trying to give both of them a fair chance to get their art REALLY good, and make it look...well, nice. Then, we can compile everything together, and get a release going.

We also need to decide whether or not this is going to be self-published, or traditional publishing. I'd prefer traditional publishing, but self-publishing is fine. I think Amazon has some sort've PDF selling feature, or something like that. That's always a good route.

Dark Elf Bard's Artwork (http://shadowblade120.tumblr.com/image/28298016695)
This is not of publishable quality. But you know what, add some shadowing on it, work on the cloth texture, make it a bit more detailed, and by God, we have a great piece of art. I think DEB is a great artist, and should really stick around, because he has potential.

Now, let's all work on what we're doing, all right? I'm glad to have each and everyone of you, and I think that, together, we can truly make sure 4E lives on long after WotC has left it behind.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I want to make Magic Sword a professional product. As long as I am in charge, Magic Sword will be a professional product. This is because I feel that fans of Fourth Edition deserve it.

Fourth Edition will soon no longer be supported. It will go out of print. The tools will be taken down. Web content will stop being produced. People will still be able to play it, but the fanbase will shrink, resources will dwindle, and the books will become expensive.

If Fourth Edition is to survive and flourish, Magic Sword needs to happen, and it needs to be good. It must uphold the high standards people have come to expect. It must be polished, well-edited, entirely playable, and gorgeous. It must be able to compete with the other standards, like Fifth Edition and Pathfinder.

Otherwise, very few people will play it, even fewer will be attached, and it will die.

Magic Sword must keep Fourth Edition's legacy alive.

[Zelkon]

I want to make Magic Sword a professional product. As long as I am in charge, Magic Sword will be a professional product. This is because I feel that fans of Fourth Edition deserve it.

Fourth Edition will soon no longer be supported. It will go out of print. The tools will be taken down. Web content will stop being produced. People will still be able to play it, but the fanbase will shrink, resources will dwindle, and the books will become expensive.

If Fourth Edition is to survive and flourish, Magic Sword needs to happen, and it needs to be good. It must uphold the high standards people have come to expect. It must be polished, well-edited, entirely playable, and gorgeous. It must be able to compete with the other standards, like Fifth Edition and Pathfinder.

Otherwise, very few people will play it, even fewer will be attached, and it will die.

Magic Sword must keep Fourth Edition's legacy alive.

This right here is why I try to contribute to every 4e clone/heartbreaker I see (hopefully that's not causing any monetary problems) and have started my own (though it's a heartbreaker.)

[Gligarman2]

If I'm staying here, people need to understand something.
I personally have high standards, even for myself. The art is the first thing people see, and I want it to look...amazing, in short. As I've said, I don't want Todd Lockwood here doing the art, but if Gilgarman02 is requesting 70USD plus royalties for the art, he better damn well be a Todd Lockwood.
And I will always speak my mind, even if it makes you cry or walk away for feel just...sad. It's the way I am, and the way I speak.
That's who I am as a person. And a LOT of people hate me for it. But I'm happy with who I am, and I plan to be this way for the rest of my time here.
And if Dark Elf Bard reads this, or Gilgarman02, know that, you're not bad artists, you're just not up to my standards for 70USD a print, and that's why I pushed Guilgarman02 so much. He's not a bad artist that's reached his limit, he just needs more practice.

So here's an idea. Gilgarman02 should take some time to work on his art. We release a playtest with NO art, and give the artists a chance to work on what they're doing, because they're going in the right direction. And I like it.
Once we release the playtest, and people get a real "taste" of what Magic Sword is all about, we give the artists a fair chance to produce 1 or 2 really good pieces each, and release that as an "art preview". I'm trying to give both of them a fair chance to get their art REALLY good, and make it look...well, nice. Then, we can compile everything together, and get a release going.

We also need to decide whether or not this is going to be self-published, or traditional publishing. I'd prefer traditional publishing, but self-publishing is fine. I think Amazon has some sort've PDF selling feature, or something like that. That's always a good route.

Dark Elf Bard's Artwork (http://shadowblade120.tumblr.com/image/28298016695)
This is not of publishable quality. But you know what, add some shadowing on it, work on the cloth texture, make it a bit more detailed, and by God, we have a great piece of art. I think DEB is a great artist, and should really stick around, because he has potential.

Now, let's all work on what we're doing, all right? I'm glad to have each and everyone of you, and I think that, together, we can truly make sure 4E lives on long after WotC has left it behind.

Interesting fact: I have taken a sabbatical from MS. Chainsaw suggested your advice before you, and I'll keep improving. I just didn't know how professional this was. I'll work on my art every few weeks, stop focusing all my attention to MS, so I can improve. You are completely right, and I should have not asked for so much. I am not a professional, I had no right. However, please lighten up a bit! I see how serious you are, and I respect that. However, it may make people uncomfortable. Also, I had no idea that the writers were inherently on a higher level than the artists?:smallconfused:

[Zelkon]

Art needs to be evocative and drawn-people-in-y. Writing keeps them there. Rules text needs to be concise, and it's pretty easy to do that. Flavor text needs editing. A steady hand, a good memory/imagination and more is needed for art, a few editors are good enough for writing.

[Daemonhawk]

Interesting fact: I have taken a sabbatical from MS. Chainsaw suggested your advice before you, and I'll keep improving. I just didn't know how professional this was. I'll work on my art every few weeks, stop focusing all my attention to MS, so I can improve. You are completely right, and I should have not asked for so much. I am not a professional, I had no right. However, please lighten up a bit! I see how serious you are, and I respect that. However, it may make people uncomfortable. Also, I had no idea that the writers were inherently on a higher level than the artists?:smallconfused:

That's not what I said/meant. All I'm trying to say is that it USUALLY takes a significantly longer time to do a good piece of artwork that it does to say, write a thousand word description that is actually clear and concise. You are actually on a higher level than writing, because it's yours and DEB's art that is going to attract people to Magic Sword, which is why I want it to look so good. Your art is an immediate reflection of Magic Sword as a whole, and that's why I want YOU to SUCCEED at making the best art you possibly can.
Without the artist, I HIGHLY doubt anybody would even give Magic Sword a second look, because art has always been an integral part of tabletop RPGs.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Dark Elf Bard's Artwork (http://shadowblade120.tumblr.com/image/28298016695)
This is not of publishable quality. But you know what, add some shadowing on it, work on the cloth texture, make it a bit more detailed, and by God, we have a great piece of art. I think DEB is a great artist, and should really stick around, because he has potential.


:smallconfused:

But thank you.

[Daemonhawk]

:smallconfused:

But thank you.

Look. It's my opinion. In the end, it's Chainsaw Hobbit's choice of what's in, and what's out.

But, here's the deal. I'm going to give me your opinion. You don't make "bad" art, just art that's not of professional, publishable quality. But, work on that piece for a week or more, and it'll be ten times as good. And publishable. It just feels...halfway done to me.

And, if you're feeling up to it, tear what I did to shreds to see what's wrong with it.
Taking the Tomb (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j_pKU6XskBi6kNTTCpdh_Kw5ipI643hVY-us61MYReQ/edit)

[Surrealistik]

Speaking of the playtest module, if you need help with the crunch, encounter design and/or monsters, let me know.

[Daemonhawk]

Speaking of the playtest module, if you need help with the crunch, encounter design and/or monsters, let me know.

Alright, thanks. You might wanna start helping out without designing the first adventure, which is locating just where the tomb is in the forest. I'm not 100% sure on how to make something like this actually enjoyable, while still providing information on Mistspire and the areas around it.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I wrote a blog post on Mistspire a while back, before Magic Sword was a twinkle in my eye.

http://ultimatejosha.blogspot.ca/2012/03/guide-to-mistspire.html

[Dark Elf Bard]

I wrote a blog post on Mistspire a while back, before Magic Sword was a twinkle in my eye.

http://ultimatejosha.blogspot.ca/2012/03/guide-to-mistspire.html

:smallconfused::smalleek::smallyuk:



:smalltongue:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

:smallconfused::smalleek::smallyuk:



:smalltongue:

That was a completely innocent joke.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Painful!

All those swords, and beards, and undead, and fiery dragons....

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Painful!

All those swords, and beards, and undead, and fiery dragons....

What?

Damn minimum post length.

[Gligarman2]

This is just a tiny america/britain Counterpart Culture. Meh!

[Daemonhawk]

Sorry for so little work being done on the playtest adventure, I've been swamped.

I just had a thought relating to the art, why don't we get some people from DeviantArt to do some artwork?

[Daemonhawk]

Also, would you mind if I made up a Historia for the world? I think ti would be really nice.

[Zelkon]

Genzoman is a great artist when he's not doing rediculous cheesecake.

[Zelkon]

Also, a Wayne Reynolds cover illustration starts at around $1700.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I would rather the world wasn't very fleshed out. A sort of fill-in-the-blanks type thing.

The history would be hinted at but not detailed. Locations would be left unexplored.

[Daemonhawk]

I would rather the world wasn't very fleshed out. A sort of fill-in-the-blanks type thing.

The history would be hinted at but not detailed. Locations would be left unexplored.

Okay. So...Idea.
Why don't we have a very...vague history.
And have it take place in a time of transition?
Like...a world shattering event.
A time when everything is gone, but once was, and it's up to the players to continue to gather information on the people of the world.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Okay. So...Idea.
Why don't we have a very...vague history.
And have it take place in a time of transition?
Like...a world shattering event.
A time when everything is gone, but once was, and it's up to the players to continue to gather information on the people of the world.

Interesting idea. Could you elaborate?

[Daemonhawk]

Interesting idea. Could you elaborate?
Nevermind. It wouldn't work in the setting.
I do feel like we need a solid history, though.

[Ialdabaoth]

Mechanics diversion:

At the moment, I'm going through my TRIC project (which I intend to provide as the basis of anyone who wishes to do a 4E-clone), and mapping out "core modules".

What's a "core module"? Think of it like an operating system's "Kernel" - it's a basic set of assumptions that you can swap in and out and still have your game work, but that change virtually everything.

Here's how it works:

Core Module: Definitions
The "core mechanic" of TRIC refers to six important concepts, all of which exist in some flavor in standard 4E - I've simply codified them. These concepts are:

Ability score - This is your typical 3-to-18 (or 3-to-20) rating for your ability.
Ability modifier - This is half your ability score, minus 5. So +0 if you have a 10, +4 if you have an 18 - you know the drill.
Ability base - This is the thing that gets added to all your attacks and proficiencies. It is explicitly named differently than your Ability modifier, so that powers in TRIC can distinguish between the two (this becomes important as different Core Modules compute your Ability base differently!). In 4E, this is your ability modifier plus half your level.
Training bonus - This is the bonus you get for being Proficient in a thing. In 4E, this is +2 for weapons, and +5 for skills. (In my system, weapons that would gain +3 for proficiency instead have a +1 accuracy bonus).
Expertise bonus - This is the bonus you get for being extra-Proficient in a thing. In 4E, this is a +1/tier scaling bonus for weapons, and a +2 bonus (called 'Focus' or something) for Skills.
Proficiency - This is your check modifier for a given weapon attack or skill, or your defense modifier for wearing a type of armor. It always equals your Ability base, plus your Training bonus, plus your Expertise bonus; but different Core Modules will compute your Base, Training Bonus, and Expertise Bonus differently.

So, now that we have those five definitions, here's a look at the basic 'Core Modules' provided:

The "4E Emulator" core module
- Your Ability scores are assigned from an array, and range from 3 to 20.
- Your Ability modifier for each score is equal to half the score, minus 5.
- Your Ability base for each score is equal to the modifier plus half your level.
- Your Proficiency for weapon attacks is equal to your Ability base, +2 if you are Trained in that weapon, +1/tier if you have Expertise.
- Your proficiency for magic attacks is equal to your Ability base, +1/tier if you have Expertise. Magic attacks do not use a skill proficiency to make their attack roll.
- Your Proficiency for skills is equal to your Ability base, +5 if you are Trained in that skill, +2 if you have Expertise.
- Your Proficiency for light armors is equal to your Dexterity base; Training simply allows you to wear the armor without granting advantage. Expertise simply removes your check penalty.
- Your Proficiency for heavy armors is equal to +2 + half your level (this is to allow heavy armors to give roughly equivalent protection no matter what module you use); Training simply allows you to wear the armor without granting advantage. Expertise simply removes your check penalty and speed penalty.

- Your defenses and Initiative are computed as follows:
* Armor: (armor base) + (Dex base if in light armor, or half level if in heavy armor)
* Fortitude: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Con base or Str base)
* Reflex: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Dex base or Int base)
* Will: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Wis base or Cha base)
* Initiative: (class bonuses) + Dex base

- Monster math uses (+5 +level) for attacks, (14 + level) for Armor defense, and (12 + level) for other defenses.

The "Heroics" core module:
- Your Ability scores are assigned from an array, and range from 3 to 20.
- Your Ability modifier for each score is equal to half the score, minus 5.
- Your Ability base for each score is equal to half (the modifier plus your level).
- Your Proficiency for skills, magic attacks and weapon attacks is equal to your Ability base, +2 if you are Trained in that weapon or skill, +1 if you have Expertise. Magic attacks always use a skill proficiency to make the attack roll.
- Your Proficiency for armor is computed exactly like your Proficiency for skills and weapon attacks.

- Your defenses and Initiative are computed as follows:
* Armor: (armor base) + (Armor proficiency)
* Fortitude: 10 + (class bonuses) + Con base
* Reflex: 10 + (class bonuses) + Dex base
* Will: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Wis base or Cha base)
* Initiative: (class bonuses) + (higher of Int base or Dex base)

- Monster math uses (+5 +half level) for attacks, (14 +half level) for Armor defense, and (12 +half level) for other defenses.

The "Level-based" Core Module
- Your Ability scores are assigned from an array, and range from 3 to 20.
- Your Ability modifier for each score is equal to half the score, minus 5.
- Your Ability base for each score is equal to your level, +1 if the Ability is 15 or higher.
- Your Proficiency for skills, magic attacks and weapon attacks is equal to your level, +5 if you are Trained in that weapon or skill.
- Your Proficiency for armor is computed exactly like your Proficiency for skills and weapon attacks.

- Your defenses and Initiative are computed as follows:
* Armor: (armor base) + (Armor proficiency)
* Fortitude: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Con base or Str base)
* Reflex: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Dex base or Int base)
* Will: 10 + (class bonuses) + (higher of Wis base or Cha base)
* Initiative: (class bonuses) + (higher of Dex base or Int base)

- Monster math uses (+5 +level) for attacks, (14 +level) for Armor defense, and (12 +level) for other defenses.

The Variable Module
The Variable Module is designed to emulate a more 3.5-style of play.

Ability Scores - Ability Scores are generated using six 4d6 rolls, summing the highest 3 dice in each roll, and assigning the values as you choose.
Ability Modifier - your Ability Modifier is equal to half your Ability Score (round down), minus 5.
Ability Base - your Ability Base is equal to your Ability Modifier.
Training - Training in any Proficiency grants you +2 to that check or defense.
Expertise - Expertise in any Proficiency grants you +1 to that check or defense. You may gain this bonus multiple times; at each level, you may Train a number of different Defenses or Proficiencies equal to 5 + your Intelligence modifier.
Defenses -
your Armor Defense is equal to your armor's base defense + your Proficiency with that type of armor.
your Reflex Defense is equal to your class bonus plus your Dexterity Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.
your Fortitude Defense is equal to your class bonus plus your Constitution Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.
your Will Defense is equal to your class bonus plus the higher of your Wisdom Base or your Charisma Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.
Initiative - your Initiative modifier is equal to your class bonus plus the higher of your Dexterity Base or your Intelligence Base, +1 per Expertise spent to raise it.

Monster Math - monster math uses (+5 +level) for attacks, (14 +level) for armor, (12 +level) for one defense, and (12 + half level) for the other two defenses.

Other core modules may be created to serve different game styles.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I just want to say that the project isn't dead. I'm extremely busy right now, to the point where I am not really getting enough sleep, and I don't have enough time or energy to work on Magic Sword.

Hopefully, things will quiet down soon, and I can do more writing. In the mean time, it would be great if you guys were to do some stuff.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Oh, good! I thought this was dead.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Oh, good! I thought this was dead.

Lets try to get the project running again.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I dislike the spell schools of D&D 3.5 and Essentials. They work fine, but they aren't very evocative, and there are too many of them. I propose an alternate selection:

Enchantment: Beguiling illusions, subtle manipulation of emotions, hypnosis, magical sleep, and other such things.

Destruction: Bolts of lightening, twisting pillars of flame, magic missiles, shock-waves that bring down walls, earthquakes, and the like.

Necromancy: The creation of undead and the shaping of undeath.

Universal: All wizards can cast universal spells. Examples include flying, magical shields, and the detection of magic.

[Ialdabaoth]

I dislike the spell schools of D&D 3.5 and Essentials. They work fine, but they aren't very evocative, and there are too many of them. I propose an alternate selection:

Enchantment: Beguiling illusions, subtle manipulation of emotions, hypnosis, magical sleep, and other such things.

Destruction: Bolts of lightening, twisting pillars of flame, magic missiles, shock-waves that bring down walls, earthquakes, and the like.

Necromancy: The creation of undead and the shaping of undeath.

Universal: All wizards can cast universal spells. Examples include flying, magical shields, and the detection of magic.

I would personally advise the following schools (and names) instead:

Aetherics - Teleportation, scrying, and extraplanar travel and communication. May also be used for telepathy, but using a very different mechanism than Beguilement.

Elementalism - The raw evocation of elemental energies, such as turning a creature to stone, conjuring a lightning bolt or a fireball.

Beguilement - Illusions, sleep, fear, charm, mind control, telepathy, and other manipulations of perception, of emotion, of thought, or of behavior.

Necromancy - the creation and control of the undead and of death energies.

Telekinesis - levitation, movement, force-fields, and the control, creation, or abjuration of force and impact.

Metamagic - these effects are not even truly "spells", but raw weavings that affect the structure of magic itself.

"Enchantment", as a school, means too many different things - some people think it should mean ensorcelling/beguiling, while others think it should mean crafting magic items. "Beguilement" and "Artifice" are much more readily-comprehensible terms.

[Ialdabaoth]

Also, having a school like "Destruction" is inherently bad, because players should not be *forced* to pick a particular school if they want to play a particular role. "Destruction" is a hands-down striker role.

In the same sense that a weapon-user should be able to use weapon attacks to perform strikery actions, or defendery actions, or controllery actions, or leadery actions, a magic-user should be able to use magic spells to perform strikery effects, or defendery effects, or controllery effects, or leadery effects.

One of the great things about having "schools of magic", is that you can have Sorcerers and Wizards and Artificers and Swordmages share spell lists.

At which point, you need to make sure that the Sorcerer has sufficient striker options, and the Wizard has sufficient controller options, and the Artificer has sufficient leader options, and the Swordmage has sufficient defender options, no matter what school of magic they decide to take or specialize in.

It's easy to imagine how that would work with Beguilement, or Necromancy - even though they strongly lean towards one particular direction, you can still conceive of effects for each role:

Beguiler Striker - conjures terrifying illusions which deal psychic damage through sheer terror, pain, or sapping the will to fight.
Beguiler Defender - Conjures defensive illusions which make him harder to hit and befuddle the minds of the creatures he's marked, forcing them to attack him (and miss!) instead of targeting his allies.
Beguiler Controller - conjures luring illusions or hacks the enemy's minds directly with hypnosis, fear and charm spells
Beguiler Leader - bolsters his allies with morale-boosting charm effects, and weaves illusions over them to make them seems more fearful and intimidating to the enemy.

Necromancer Striker - exploding shards of bone, blood-draining spells and negative energy conjurations can directly deal necrotic damage, as can conjure-and-forget shrieking ghosts.
Necromancer Defender - by infusing your body with necrotic energy, you become a nigh-invulnerable being of fear and undeath, keeping your enemies from effectively engaging your allies.
Necromancer Controller - lol skeleton horde rush kekekeke
Necromancer Leader - By conjuring ancestor-ghosts to protect your allies, fortifying their bodies with lesser versions of the potions that you use to reinvigorate the dead, and warding them against the very necrotic energies that you command, you can do a pretty good job of keeping your allies alive.

With destruction, you run into the "all I have is a hammer; everything is therefore a nail" problem. This is great if you're a striker; if not, you effectively become one as soon as you take that school. Naming the school "Elementalism" instead makes it easier to fit defensive or buffing effects into the school - who wouldn't want the caster to give him an awesome sheet of rock-solid ice armor before going toe-to-toe with a red dragon in the middle of a volcano lair?

Likewise, avoiding a "universal" school means avoiding lumping a bunch of stuff together that doesn't belong together, but doesn't belong anywhere else - it's better to actually think about what the magic *does*, and find a logical grouping for it.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I would personally advise the following schools (and names) instead:

Aetherics - Teleportation, scrying, and extraplanar travel and communication. May also be used for telepathy, but using a very different mechanism than Beguilement.

Elementalism - The raw evocation of elemental energies, such as turning a creature to stone, conjuring a lightning bolt or a fireball.

Beguilement - Illusions, sleep, fear, charm, mind control, telepathy, and other manipulations of perception, of emotion, of thought, or of behavior.

Necromancy - the creation and control of the undead and of death energies.

Telekinesis - levitation, movement, force-fields, and the control, creation, or abjuration of force and impact.

Metamagic - these effects are not even truly "spells", but raw weavings that affect the structure of magic itself.

"Enchantment", as a school, means too many different things - some people think it should mean ensorcelling/beguiling, while others think it should mean crafting magic items. "Beguilement" and "Artifice" are much more readily-comprehensible terms.

I like this significantly better than what I came up with.

[Ialdabaoth]

I like this significantly better than what I came up with.

Glad to help!

[Zelkon]

I would personally advise the following schools (and names) instead:

Aetherics - Teleportation, scrying, and extraplanar travel and communication. May also be used for telepathy, but using a very different mechanism than Beguilement.

Elementalism - The raw evocation of elemental energies, such as turning a creature to stone, conjuring a lightning bolt or a fireball.

Beguilement - Illusions, sleep, fear, charm, mind control, telepathy, and other manipulations of perception, of emotion, of thought, or of behavior.

Necromancy - the creation and control of the undead and of death energies.

Telekinesis - levitation, movement, force-fields, and the control, creation, or abjuration of force and impact.

Metamagic - these effects are not even truly "spells", but raw weavings that affect the structure of magic itself.

"Enchantment", as a school, means too many different things - some people think it should mean ensorcelling/beguiling, while others think it should mean crafting magic items. "Beguilement" and "Artifice" are much more readily-comprehensible terms.
Aetherics is nice, but I don't see any combat use. It should be kept to rituals IMO.

Elementalism is neat, but I see Evoction as more than just energy. Also, I think Telekinesis should be rolled into this.

Beguilement should include everything that involves the mind, including telepathy.

Necromancy as a wizard school kills any possibility of a necromancer class, which needs a full class to truly act as what everyone says it is. Honestly it makes me more pessimistic about the game knowing my favorite class won't be in...

Why is Metamagic even a school? It's not like it actually encompasses spells...

Where does Conjuration go? I feel like pulling something out of nothing is worthy of it's own school. Actually, conjuration and evocation mean the same thing per the Thesaurus.

[Ialdabaoth]

Aetherics is nice, but I don't see any combat use. It should be kept to rituals IMO.

Elementalism is neat, but I see Evoction as more than just energy. Also, I think Telekinesis should be rolled into this.

Really, Elementalism is a lot of Evocation + a lot of Conjuration.


Beguilement should include everything that involves the mind, including telepathy.

Absolutely. As I said, "Aetherics can ALSO do telepathy, but it does it differently".


Necromancy as a wizard school kills any possibility of a necromancer class, which needs a full class to truly act as what everyone says it is. Honestly it makes me more pessimistic about the game knowing my favorite class won't be in...

I strongly disagree, here. Having Necromancy as a school makes it EASIER to make a Necromancer class. In the same sense that a Wild Mage or Dragon Soul is a kind of "Elemental Sorcerer", you could easily craft a "Necromantic Sorcerer" that does the same thing with Necromancy spells.


Why is Metamagic even a school? It's not like it actually encompasses spells...

Perhaps it shouldn't be; perhaps it should simply be part of the class features.


Where does Conjuration go? I feel like pulling something out of nothing is worthy of it's own school. Actually, conjuration and evocation mean the same thing per the Thesaurus.

Conjuring elemental energies or substances would go under Elementalism. Conjuring bubbles or walls of magical force, giant floating hands, and such would go under Telekinesis. Conjuring extraplanar portals or manifestations would go under Aetherics. Conjuring effects made out of negative energy would go under Necromancy. Conjuring phantasms and semi-solid illusions from the feywild would go under Beguilement.

Alternatiively: my current sub-system (different from Josha's) splits Wizards into four separate classes: Evokers (strikers), Abjurers (defenders), Conjurers (controllers) and Artificers (leaders). Then you pick a School on top of that.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I think that each class being able to fill all four roles weakens the concept of the class as a whole. The only one I can reasonably see playing four roles is the fighter.

The wizard is the guy with pasty skin and a bit of a cough because he has spent far too much time in a dark, musty room reading books. He can't hold his own in the thick of combat. He isn't a commander who heals and bolsters his allies. He is the relatively frail introvert with poor posture who unleashes blasts of arcane might on his foes and is slightly insane from gazing into the abyss.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Wouldn't Telekinesis be a psionic power?

[Ialdabaoth]

I think that each class being able to fill all four roles weakens the concept of the class as a whole. The only one I can reasonably see playing four roles is the fighter.

The wizard is the guy with pasty skin and a bit of a cough because he has spent far too much time in a dark, musty room reading books. He can't hold his own in the thick of combat. He isn't a commander who heals and bolsters his allies. He is the relatively frail introvert with poor posture who unleashes blasts of arcane might on his foes and is slightly insane from gazing into the abyss.

Then what's a Swordmage? What's an Artificer?

[Zelkon]

Then what's a Swordmage? What's an Artificer?

A swormage and an atificer. Different classes. A class can fit two roles easily, more is streching it.

[Gligarman2]

Quick Question? According to the words of The Giant, "Established Setting X but Better is a Sucker's Bet." What makes the world of magic sword different than D&D? What are you doing? Why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D? This is seeming kinda Dungeons and Dragons-esque. Without a niche, Madcap Games might not do so well. This is important. I ask again, why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D?

[Zelkon]

Quick Question? According to the words of The Giant, "Established Setting X but Better is a Sucker's Bet." What makes the world of magic sword different than D&D? What are you doing? Why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D? This is seeming kinda Dungeons and Dragons-esque. Without a niche, Madcap Games might not do so well. This is important. I ask again, why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D?

Why do people buy PF? It's a continuation of their favorite game, with new content and improved, cleaner mechanics. Also, are we really going for commercial success? I was under the impression that labor costs was the only money contributors would get. Any extra is, well, extra.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Huh? I was under the impression that we were shooting for it to evolve into the 4e version of Pathfinder. :smallconfused:

[Zelkon]

Huh? I was under the impression that we were shooting for it to evolve into the 4e version of Pathfinder. :smallconfused:

Of course we want that. A more realistic goal, at least to start with, is to break even, make a great game.

[Ialdabaoth]

A swormage and an atificer. Different classes. A class can fit two roles easily, more is streching it.

*nod* to me, "Wizard" and "Fighter" are more meta-classes than classes. There can be several kinds of "Wizard", each of which is its own class - just like there can be several kinds of "Fighter", each of which is its own class.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Quick Question? According to the words of The Giant, "Established Setting X but Better is a Sucker's Bet." What makes the world of magic sword different than D&D? What are you doing? Why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D? This is seeming kinda Dungeons and Dragons-esque. Without a niche, Madcap Games might not do so well. This is important. I ask again, why should a consumer buy Magic Sword if they own Dungeons and Dragons? 90% of role players own D&D?

Each edition of D&D is like a different roleplaying game, with different flaws and merits. If they already own Fourth Edition, one might pick up Magic Sword because its hopefully better and free. If they do not own Fourth Edition, they might pick up Magic Sword in order to be able to play Fourth Edition, as the books will soon become expensive and rare.

[Gligarman2]

Wait, free? How are you going to pay for business or labor costs? How is this going to work? Are we a professional company or an indie group? What the heck is happening?:smallfurious:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Wait, free? How are you going to pay for business or labor costs? How is this going to work? Are we a professional company or an indie group? What the heck is happening?:smallfurious:

We raise money on IndieGoGo. There could also be a "donate" button on the site.

[Zelkon]

We could do sort of a DDI thing were we post new material for those who donate. Money starts rolling in by the ones :smalltongue:.

[Gligarman2]

Alright. I still feel as though the setting is...lacking. I just feel kinda like this isn't new. I'm sorry, I just don't see much of an identity in this game.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

We could do sort of a DDI thing were we post new material for those who donate. Money starts rolling in by the ones :smalltongue:.
Like that. Books for free, browser stuff for money.


Alright. I still feel as though the setting is...lacking. I just feel kinda like this isn't new. I'm sorry, I just don't see much of an identity in this game.
The setting is meant to be traditional enough that nearly anything from D&D has a place in it, but new enough to have an identity. I think that was accomplished, with strong fae themes, Tolkien inspiration, Grimm-style lore, and a dash of Ravenloft.

[Zelkon]

Alright. I still feel as though the setting is...lacking. I just feel kinda like this isn't new. I'm sorry, I just don't see much of an identity in this game.

Compare everything game-related to PF. Golorian wasn't very original, but it had stuff to do and places to visit. Plenty of campaigns are run there. Is it what makes PF what it is? No. Is it a ready to play setting? Yes. Soon the people will move on to their own worlds.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Compare everything game-related to PF. Golorian wasn't very original, but it had stuff to do and places to visit. Plenty of campaigns are run there. Is it what makes PF what it is? No. Is it a ready to play setting? Yes. Soon the people will move on to their own worlds.

I wanted to make something that would compete with the Nentir Vale. It isn't a fully fleshed-out world, and it isn't original. Its a starting point. A sort of fill-in-the-blanks introduction to world building.

I think that my setting does that, only better.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Things have quieted down a bit, and I have a bit more time.

Who here wants to play some straight-up 4e (with me as DM), and then have a brainstorming session afterwards. We could even do something of a campaign, and think of things that could be improved at the end of each session.

This could be done via Skype (text chat only) or PBP. If we did PBP, a frequent and mostly consistent posting rate would be required.

[Gligarman2]

Are non-employees excluded?

[Zelkon]

I'd be interested. I suggest Myth-Weavers personally. I think we should go with relatively high amounts of combat, with varied builds.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I'm working on a recruitment thread now. I think we should play some published adventure, so we can also examine what works and what doesn't with the writing.


Are non-employees excluded?
No, but I'm looking for people interested in Magic Sword and game design theory.


I'd be interested. I suggest Myth-Weavers personally. I think we should go with relatively high amounts of combat, with varied builds.
Agreed.

[Zelkon]

We could do KotSF if we really want to grind.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

We could do KotSF if we really want to grind.

KotSF is pretty bad. Its even sadder because the potential is there.

I suppose I could run it. It would pain me, though. I would update the monster math, but keep everything else intact.

[Dark Elf Bard]

I definitely am in. LOVE LOVE LOVE playing 4e. Don't have a Mythweavers account though.

What's KotSF?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

The recruitment thread is up. All staff are welcome and encouraged to join.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13908705#post13908705



I definitely am in. LOVE LOVE LOVE playing 4e. Don't have a Mythweavers account though.

What's KotSF?
Keep on the Shadowfell.

[Zelkon]

KotSF is pretty bad. Its even sadder because the potential is there.

I suppose I could run it. It would pain me, though. I would update the monster math, but keep everything else intact.

It has some good combat encounters, it's just railroady. It gets more bile than it deserves imo.
KotSF is short for the 4e intro adventure, Keep on the Shadowfell.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

It doesn't really matter if you've played the adventure before, so long as you're able not to metagame. I would like at least one fresh player, though.

If you're interested, please get to work on you character sheets. I'm ready when you are.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I know this might seem a bit early, but once we are done the Magic Sword Core Rulebook, what kind of supplements should there be.

I think ...

Some kind of monster book, containing enough monsters to at least mostly fill a campaign.
A book that fleshes out the setting a bit more.
A book with more classes, and perhaps more races.
A book of several short adventures for a variety of levels.

They do not at all need to be in that order.

[S.K. Ren]

Just found this project. I'm a little confused on your structure. Are you a group of collaborators or are you an actual indie company (i.e actually registered as a company)? Either way I'd like to help contribute to the project.

[Zelkon]

Just found this project. I'm a little confused on your structure. Are you a group of collaborators or are you an actual indie company (i.e actually registered as a company)? Either way I'd like to help contribute to the project.

No, not yet I don't believe. But we're listed on the retroclone page an ENworld.:smallbiggrin:


:smalltongue:

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Okay, look: If Magic Sword is going to happen, we NEED to get the playtest done so we can raise money. I'm sorry I haven't been more present. I've been busy, and I will remain busy for a while, but we need to finish.

Everyone, please get to work. You are needed. I will do as much as I can.

[Zelkon]

I can get started on whatever you need, but it might be as late as friday,.,

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I can get started on whatever you need, but it might be as late as friday,.,

As soon as you can, so long as it isn't at the expense of important things in your life.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Just found this project. I'm a little confused on your structure. Are you a group of collaborators or are you an actual indie company (i.e actually registered as a company)? Either way I'd like to help contribute to the project.

We are not yet a registered company, but we plan to be at some point.

Magic Sword is a non-profit project that, though raising money, we plan to make of professional quality.

[Zelkon]

Ok, I'm ready to work. What do I need to do?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Ok, I'm ready to work. What do I need to do?

Please continue with the adventure until further notice.

[Zelkon]

Please continue with the adventure until further notice.

Err... I hadn't been working on it but, time to start!

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Guys ...

I've been having an interesting - and somewhat depressing - conversation with Gligarman2. Basically, he asked me how Magic Sword would compete with pirated 4e books and D&DI tools. I didn't have a good answer.

Honestly, it can't. The Wizards had a bigger budget, a bigger team with more time to work, Wayne Reynolds, more resources, and fewer legal restrictions. All of their books are available for free on the internet. Why would people donate to Magic Sword? We can't compete.

Unless I hear a REALLY good reason why Magic Sword will be able to make people care, I'm calling off the project.

However, this is not the end of our brotherhood. Madcap Games is strong. I quote Gligarman2:


On this sad bit of bad news, I bring good news! We have Madcap Games! We can make better games! On my commute, I just created half of a tabletop medieval politics simulator. That is an extreme! example of something new and original. We've got an awesome team, a visionary leader, and a hard-assed writer who loves his men like a father. We can make a better game. There is a niche for us, just one that is not exactly like other games. I like the idea of Magic Sword, but perhaps we could release it as a development kit for fourth edition with optional rules as opposed to a fully-done game. That gets put out, Madcap gets noticed, and we can split our time. How's that sound?

My idea was that we could take what we have of Magic Sword, extract all of the new and interesting things (such as the adventure), and make those independent of Magic Sword as a whole.

Tomb of the Unknown King is too good a premise to abandon, so it can simply become a free 4e adventure.

We also have the option of taking some of the innovations of Magic Sword, and publishing them as a sort of "Unearthed Arcana" to 4e.

Finally, if the team is up for it, I would like to devote the now free time and energy into making a whole new game that won't have to deal with legal issues.

There was this game I started working on as a side project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253346). If you guys are up for it, I thing we could turn it into something great.

[Zelkon]

Yeah, why would someone ever buy PF or LL or anything that's on the web for free.:smallsigh:
If you want to abandon MS, by all means. But give me a better reason.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Yeah, why would someone ever buy PF or LL or anything that's on the web for free.:smallsigh:
If you want to abandon MS, by all means. But give me a better reason.

Do you get a polished, high-production-value, heavily-play-tested game for free, or an independently developed, low-production-value, less-polished game for money?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Do you get a polished, high-production-value, heavily-play-tested game for free, or an independently developed, low-production-value, less-polished game for money?

You can make a polished, high-production-value, heavily-play-tested, and independently developed game. You just need better organization than you had in these threads and in this project (still following it, albeit from a distance).

You guys started out trying to go in a half-dozen directions, gave a lot of free reign, and didn't even stop to hammer out core system decisions. There was a lot of "we're doing THIS differently!" without a lot of "this is WHY we're doing this differently, this is HOW we're doing this differently, and THIS is how that will change X, Y, and Z." You have broad-reaching goals, and less information on how you would implement such things. The implementation is the more important part.

As such, when I look over your Magic Sword document, I see...basically 4e, with a new hat. It's not a new system yet, because you didn't set out goals to make it a new system. It's probably not even out of WotC's gaming license territory, although I can't make that call, not being a professional and all (plus forum rules and so forth). It seems like 4e homebrew...like a 3.5 fix that just sits on top of the races, and maybe gives the fighter a new set of abilities. It's still 3.5, just with a slightly tweaked racial system. You were aiming for the Pathfinder of 4e, which is a MUCH larger project.


*****

The long and short of it is that you're designing a system. And you skipped squares 1-10 or something like that. It doesn't look like you ever got people together, buckled down, and said "we like X, Y, and Z from the core 4e rules. We need to change A, B, and C. This is the best way to change A, B, and C. Now let's write rules around changes to A, B, and C, and implement those across our design."

Some people put some effort into that, yes...but it wasn't taken as much to heart as it should have been. You guys jumped to far into the meat of the system without having a solid framework to hang it on, and jumped to quickly into adventure supplements, art, marketing, funding, and all that jazz.

Systems are designed from the ground up, and you glossed over the construction stages. It seems you assumed that the core of 4e works...and that may or may not be true. But you need to start system design from the very basics, and you need to hammer them into a fluid, functional system before you can add more on top of that.

I'm not sure you should give up on the project, if you want a 4e-esque system to continue to be supported. You just need to really work on your organization, design, and, yes, the team you choose to make these things work. How many of you actually have experience with system design? How many think they know the rules and balance of 4e enough to dissect it and pull out what works and what doesn't? You need people like that. Crowd-sourcing design is fine...but you have to make sure you can turn it INTO something.

-The Djinn

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

*Snip!*

The original goal of Magic Sword was to create a clone of 4e so that it could be supported after 4e dies. This (http://open4e.wikia.com/wiki/Home) has basically already done that. Then Magic Sword became its own heavily-4e-based RPG. The problem with that is that very few people - if any - will bother to learn a new game when they can just play pirated 4e.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Then Magic Sword became its own heavily-4e-based RPG. The problem with that is that very few people - if any - will bother to learn a new game when they can just play pirated 4e.

If this were true, Pathfinder, Legend, d20r, and all the other d20 variants out there would not have an audience. Hint: they have an audience. The good ones, anyway.

[Gligarman2]

Maybe we need to start off a fledgeling company with a unique offering as opposed to an improvement of an existing system.

[Zelkon]

The original goal of Magic Sword was to create a clone of 4e so that it could be supported after 4e dies. This (http://open4e.wikia.com/wiki/Home) has basically already done that. Then Magic Sword became its own heavily-4e-based RPG. The problem with that is that very few people - if any - will bother to learn a new game when they can just play pirated 4e.
Hint: people will pay for what they love.
Hint 2: people will pay money if given a quick, easy way to get a game that fixes some stuff and adds a new, innovative additions and support.
Hint 3: most of our audience will already be familiar with 4e.
Hint 4: people don't like to pirate stuff.

[Gligarman2]

Zelkon, I've mostly noticed that you never contribute anything to the project. You just sort of appear, criticise the latest post(s) and disappear. If you have a vendetta against us, just say so.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Maybe we need to start off a fledgeling company with a unique offering as opposed to an improvement of an existing system.

Well, a unique offering CAN be an improvement on a system. You just need to have a selling point: a reason why your system is better/different/more interesting than similar competition.

[Gligarman2]

One which MS never had. It was generic. Bland. Like steel wrapped in steel.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

One which MS never had. It was generic. Bland. Like steel wrapped in steel.

That was sort of my point. At no stage of development did the idea of giving MS an actual identity come up.

[Gligarman2]

That was my major objection to the project. Funny how two enemies can learn that we both misunderstood each other!:smallbiggrin:

The other one was Daemonhawk's hardassery.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

That was my major objection to the project. Funny how two enemies can learn that we both misunderstood each other!:smallbiggrin:

The other one was Daemonhawk's hardassery.

Wait...enemies what? Who said anything about enemies?

[Gligarman2]

Sorry. I guess it just seemed that you and Zelkon were the main critics of the (Now mercy-killed) project.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sorry. I guess it just seemed that you and Zelkon were the main critics of the (Now mercy-killed) project.

I was critical of the development process I saw in the thread, because that process seemed detrimental to actually producing a polished product. My comments were an attempt to get this recognized without directly intervening. I'm sorry if that came off as hypercritical.

I actually always support system design...but I tend to call things as I see them. Additionally, my comments were pointing out potential legality issues and possible design process faults: both of which were, in my mind, important things to realize.

[Gligarman2]

Yeah. At least your criticism made sense. Zelkon sort of just appeared, criticized, and left. I'm glad Madcap's learned how to make a game, and we've gone to make a better one. I still think that the "idea" our otherwise grand leader suggested of fighting teddy bears the RPG is kinda meh though.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I hope Daemonhawk will be on board with whatever we do next.

[Zelkon]

Zelkon, I've mostly noticed that you never contribute anything to the project. You just sort of appear, criticise the latest post(s) and disappear. If you have a vendetta against us, just say so.

Geeze, sorry. Apologies for lending a critical eye. I'm critical cuz that's usually considered helpful.

And I'm just going to stop there. I have more I want to say, but I'd be better for everyone if I don't let my temper get a hold of me. Consider this my resignation from nothing.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Geeze, sorry. Apologies for lending a critical eye. I'm critical cuz that's usually considered helpful.

And I'm just going to stop there. I have more I want to say, but I'd be better for everyone if I don't let my temper get a hold of me. Consider this my resignation from nothing.

Dude. Your criticism has been interesting. Don't leave because you think you aren't welcome.

[Gligarman2]

I sent you a few PMs, sir.

[Gligarman2]

What the hell happened to everyone affiliated with this?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

What the hell happened to everyone affiliated with this?

I'd imagine the recent discussion was very discouraging to those involved...from my view as an outsider, it looked like the project up and died, and not everyone on board with this project is necessarily interested in other projects.

[Zelkon]

Dude, I'm on the forums a ton. I homebrew and talk about homebrew quite a lot (recent obsession). I'm fine to keep going, or not.

[Gligarman2]

Son of a bitch. I guess if no-one contacts me in a week, Madcap Games has failed. More time to work on my Pvt. Church armor, I guess...:smallfrown:

[Daemonhawk]

Well, looks like the $hit hit the fan while I was gone. Sorry.
Long story short my Internet got disconnected, and it's a wonder I survived.

So, what needs to be fixed, and what exactly happened?

[Dark Elf Bard]

****. I really, really, wannted this to happen.

[Daemonhawk]

Who says it can't? Somebody must simply take the mantle, like Bruenor Battlehammer at the claiming of Mithril Hall.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Who says it can't? Somebody must simply take the mantle, like Bruenor Battlehammer at the claiming of Mithril Hall.

Okay. Guys. I think the project can still be done. I'm so, so sorry about leaving. I can talk about it tomorrow, but for now, I must do other things. Please hang in there.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

So, I want to work on this again, but I want to change a lot of policies.

For one thing, the adaptation would be more abstract. It would be less "D&D", and more "Cinematic Heroic Fantasy System". The rules would still be heavily D&D 4e based, but would be less of a copy, and more of a loving offshoot.

Things such as bounded accuracy would be introduced, everything would be re-balanced, and the game would become more genaric.

How does this sound?

[Ialdabaoth]

So, I want to work on this again, but I want to change a lot of policies.

For one thing, the adaptation would be more abstract. It would be less "D&D", and more "Cinematic Heroic Fantasy System". The rules would still be heavily D&D 4e based, but would be less of a copy, and more of a loving offshoot.

Things such as bounded accuracy would be introduced, everything would be re-balanced, and the game would become more genaric.

How does this sound?

You should just officially join my project, then, rather than borrowing my subsystems. :) I'm already there.

[Ialdabaoth]

Actually, how about I do an infodump of some of the math-heavy stuff I've worked out:

Bounded Accuracy
"Bounded Accuracy" basically just means "the range between the lowest and highest possible to-hit values are less extreme than previous editions of D&D, so that lower-level monsters and higher-level monsters are difficult, but not impossible".

Generally, you want a maximum possible spread of 10 points on a D20, so that very high accuracy is still highly noticeable compared to very low accuracy, but not overwhelming.

The first thing you need to do, before you do "bounded accuracy", is to make sure that everything's on the same scale. 4E came close to this, but the fact that 4E's skill checks, attack rolls, and defenses were different systems that happened to (roughly) scale with each other means that whenever you tweak the scaling, you have to tweak all three scaling systems, and then verify that they always line up with each other.

This is tedious and error-prone.

A better solution is to hard-couple all three subsystems to a single "proficiency" math, and then you know that when you adjust that underlying math, all three systems automatically scale correctly relative to each other - since they all use that same math.

This is the accuracy system I use:


Level
Characters increase in class level from 1 to 10. Past level 10, a character does not further progress in their character class - instead, they gain a paragon class and begin at level 1 in that paragon class. Once a character reaches level 10 in their paragon class, they may gain an epic destiny and gain levels in that destiny. Levels in a paragon class or epic destiny are not considered levels in a character class, and thus do not contribute to the character's ability bases (see below).

Abilities
An ability has three values - a score, a modifier, and a base. Each of these is used in different ways.

A character's ability score is a value, usually between 3 and 18 for humans, which measures that character's basic prowess in that particular ability. Some traits use an ability score directly - for example, a character's lifting and carrying capacity is determined directly by their Strength score, and their starting hit points are determined directly by their Endurance score.

A character's ability modifier is derived from their ability score - for each ability score, that ability's modifier is equal to the score divided by 2, minus 5. Thus, a score of 10 or 11 has a modifier of +0, while a score of 12 or 13 has a modifier of +1, a score of 14 or 15 has a modifier of +2, a score of 16 or 17 has a modifier of +3, a score of 18 or 19 has a modifier of +4, and a score of 20 has a modifier of +5. Except for accuracy, almost all combat effects that are affected by an ability, use the ability modifier. For example, a character's melee damage bonus is equal to their Strength modifier, while their ranged damage bonus is equal to their Dexterity modifier.

A character's ability base is derived from their ability modifier - for each ability score, that ability's base is equal to the sum of the modifier plus the character's level, divided by 2. Thus, a modifier of +5 would provide a base of +3 at level 1 and 2, +4 at level 3 and 4, +5 at level 5 and 6, +6 at level 7 and 8, and +7 at level 9 and 10. All proficiencies, defenses, and initiative use the character's ability bases to determine their base value, before applying other modifiers.

Proficiencies
A character has various proficiencies which determine their competence with particular weapons, skills, and armors. A character can have three levels of training in any given proficiency: untrained (+0), trained (+2), or expert (+3). This training bonus is added to the ability base for that proficiency, to determine the character's total check modifier for that proficiency.

Hand-to-Hand Proficiencies
Unarmed (Strength or Dexterity)
Grappling (Strength or Constitution)

Melee Weapon Proficiencies
Blades (Strength or Dexterity)
Flails (Strength or Dexterity)
Axes (Strength)
Bludgeons (Strength)
Hammers (Strength)
Spears (Strength)
Swords (Strength)
Polearms (Strength)

Ranged Weapon Proficiencies
Thrown (Strength or Dexterity)
Bows (Dexterity)
Crossbows (Dexterity)

Armor Proficiencies
Light Armor (Dexterity)
Heavy Armor (Constitution)
Shields (Strength)

Skill Proficiencies
Endurance (Constitution)
Athletics (Strength)
Acrobatics (Dexterity)
Stealth (Dexterity)
Thievery (Dexterity)
Arcana (Intelligence)
Craft (Intelligence)
History (Intelligence)
Heal (Wisdom)
Insight (Wisdom)
Nature (Wisdom)
Perception (Wisdom)
Religion (Wisdom)
Bluff (Charisma)
Diplomacy (Charisma)
Intimidate (Charisma)
Streetwise (Charisma)


It works out pretty well; it means that the absolute worst that a PC can do (level 1, untrained, ability score 6) is a +0 check modifier, while the best a PC can do (level 10, expert, ability score 20) is a +10 check modifier. Since defenses follow the same progression (your AC equals 10 + your armor's bonus + your armor proficiency check modifier, while other defenses equal your ability base + your class bonus), attacks and defenses never wind up out-pacing each other.

[vasharanpaladin]

I'd like to point out that bows should be able to use Strength, Ialdabaoth. Other than that, nice~ :smallcool:

[Ialdabaoth]

I'd like to point out that bows should be able to use Strength, Ialdabaoth. Other than that, nice~ :smallcool:

Not really; hand-eye coordination is key for actually putting your target where you want it; the only exception is things that are big enough for strength to matter on the actual projectile (hence Thrown). Remember that bows have a maximum draw strength; effectively, Exalted's system is the right way to do it (have a strength minimum for different bow types, so that Shortbows need a strength of 11+, Longbows need a strength of 13+, and Greatbows need a strength of 15+ to wield).

[The Troubadour]

Hi there! First of all, sorry for dropping off the forum, but you know how real life goes. :-)
Now, I'm still interested in doing the Bard, but I was wondering - how much can I deviate from the official one?

Edit: Well, talk about being out of the loop. Is this project still on?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Well, talk about being out of the loop. Is this project still on?

Well, sir, the answer to your question is a bit complex. The project is on hold, and will remain so unless I can get a good team together.

I really dropped the ball, and the project shattered because of it. I am trying to pick up the pieces and re-assemble it, but have had little luck so far.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

You know what? I'm going to make this happen, and this time, I'm going to do it right. I will my approach to building the system will be less stilted, and I will work with several times the enthusiasm.

I'm going to put together a new document, make a new thread, and pray others will be interested. I need other people if this is going to work.

[Zelkon]

I'm in. Where's the new thread? I promise I will do some work this time on the actual game, although I'm most likely best at concepting.

[INDYSTAR188]

Hi everyone! So I'm a very infrequent visitor to this thread (like I saw the first 3 pages a long time ago) and I really liked the idea of what you guys were trying to put together. Now, whether or not you decide MS isn't going to work as planned and drop it for another project, I wanted to swing by and give some development ideas for the future. Specifically I'm talking about the organizational structuring of your company. I would recommend you guys check out the Agile Software Development (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agile_software_development) method. I am fully aware that it was designed for software but I think could easily apply to gaming development as well.

Basically what you need to do is organize yourselves. You need to have a live meeting (skype) and decided what your project goals are and who is your project lead. You then need to decide on who will be responsible for what tasks. Then you need to decide what your time frame per task is going to be and at that point you can break off and be responsible to your team lead and project lead for your product. This is especially good for you guys because it encourages working in small iterations and then sharing with the group on the agreed upon time, testing it, then improving it.

Good luck guys! I hope that I get to read your awesome gaming materials soon.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

New thread is up! You will find that the design process has been significantly altered, and the approach is much more well-defined.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14251039#post14251039

I hope to have a Skype or Google+ meeting with others who are interested soon.

[garland81]

I actually finished a full 330 page player's handbook that revamps 4E with 3E and 2E features. Havent been playtested it though. Dont have a link on me. I will post it after work.

EDIT: bah... giantitp wants 10 posts before i can post a link

Just search "3e 4e hybrid" in enworld.org for an older version.