Mountebank tier (and help with a build)

[ThiagoMartell]

Hey guys. How you all doing?
Thing is, I've been playing with a new group and they are great. Last session, my character was killed by someone with a soul sucking sword (it's a special material, I believe, but IC we have no clue).
I wanted to simply raise him, but first we have to get the sword back. I talked to the DM and it looks this is going to be very hard and it will take a while. So I need a replacement character.
I've been considering a Tiefling Mountebank (from Dragon Magazine Compendium). Does anyone know which tier Mountebank would fall in? I'm guessing 5, so with optmization I should be able to get it to function at tier 4 level. Does anyone have any experience playing a Mountebank?
For the build, I'm currently going for the most devilish I can get. I'm a tiefling Mountebank and I'll take all my free feats (that is, those I don't need to function) as devil inheritor feats (from Fiendish Codex).
We've recently converted to Pathfinder but using 3.5 splash (instead of the other way around), btw.
Any help here? I'm kind of lost and any suggestions might spare me several hours of bookdiving. :smallsmile:

[Waker]

I'd put the Mountebank at T5, T4 if I'm being generous. It has a decent skill list, but it's class abilities are somewhat weak. It's deceptive attack is strictly worse than PF Sneak Attack, since it requires a feint action (meaning no full attack) or that the target is under the effect of Beguiling Stare, which can be resisted with a Will sv or outright ignored by creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities.
Some of the Infernal Patron abilities are ok, but mostly for defensive purposes. Infernal Jaunt would work well with the Dimension line of feats that PF has, but it comes on kind of late and the class doesn't really have the muscle to back up being a melee monster.
Perhaps you could convince your DM to make a few adjustments to the classes powers, like changing Deceptive Attack to include flat-footed targets at the very least. Since the class is Charisma focused, it might mesh well with the Ninja class to make a devilishly sneaky character.

[Treblain]

Captain Obvious advice: don't get to level 20, unless you enjoy sitting at the table while your DM plays your character. :smallwink:

I'd put the Mountebank at T5; it just isn't very powerful and gets a small amount of bonus damage that is hard to access. The easiest optimization for it is probably using super-Intimidate in combat via Imperious Command and assorted tricks to debuff and shut down enemies. Maybe Ability Focus on Beguiling Stare if you use that a lot. Max out diplomacy or bluff enough that you aren't going to get stuck in hell if you die. Maybe Sun School from CW or some of the Dimensional X feats from PF to make use of the Infernal Jaunt?

Multiclass options: 3 levels of Paladin of Tyranny for weapon/armor proficiency, divine grace, and the aura, dip Warlock for an at-will weaponless ranged attack that you can apply Deceptive Attack to, Hexblade for debuff, BAB, and flavor, and Invisible Blade if you want to go the feint route.

[Waker]

Since it's PF, Antipaladin would be a good way to beef up the frailty of the class.
Would have forgotten that if not for Treblain's post.

[Feralventas]

I may be wrong here, but I think you might be better suited to steal the fluff from the base-class you're using, go Bard for 5 levels before entering into the Mountebank Prestige Class in Complete Scoundrel. Bard's class features will let you have some of the enchantment and beguiling effects that are present in the MB-base class, but is fairly viable on its own. A dip in Rogue might also facilitate the style, but at 5th level even with Bard3/rogue2, you have about the same firepower as the Mountebank Base and more beside, and then you step into the Mountebank Prestige-Class, which advances sneak-attack, grants you a decent skill-set, and a handful of very useful SLA's geared toward making you Very difficult to pin down in a non-combat situation.

[BlueEyes]

What does it matter what tier it is? You can have fun roleplaying any class. Don't get so hung up on those silly tiers. :smallamused:

[Zaq]

What does it matter what tier it is? You can have fun roleplaying any class. Don't get so hung up on those silly tiers. :smallamused:

Yeah, there's nothing sillier than trying to figure out of you'll be able to fit in with the group.

[ThiagoMartell]

I may be wrong here, but I think you might be better suited to steal the fluff from the base-class you're using, go Bard for 5 levels before entering into the Mountebank Prestige Class in Complete Scoundrel. Bard's class features will let you have some of the enchantment and beguiling effects that are present in the MB-base class, but is fairly viable on its own. A dip in Rogue might also facilitate the style, but at 5th level even with Bard3/rogue2, you have about the same firepower as the Mountebank Base and more beside, and then you step into the Mountebank Prestige-Class, which advances sneak-attack, grants you a decent skill-set, and a handful of very useful SLA's geared toward making you Very difficult to pin down in a non-combat situation.
I'm doing this because I want to play a Mountebank, basically. There are other more powerful options out there, of course. I just want to try playing this class.


Since it's PF, Antipaladin would be a good way to beef up the frailty of the class.
Would have forgotten that if not for Treblain's post.
I was thinking more about grey morality than straight evil, but I'll give this a thought.

[Waker]

Well, if you are intent on playing Mountebank I'd suggest dipping two levels of Ninja to gain access to a Ki Pool as well as a ninja trick. In this situation I would recommend Combat Trick to grab an extra feat. Use the Ki mostly to give yourself extra attacks.
Focus a number of your feats on Two-Weapon Fighting and be sure to grab Two-Weapon Feint and it's improvement when you get the chance.
Alternatively you could try the Moonlight Stalker/Feint chain and pair it with your racial ability to cast darkness and the Smoke Bomb ninja trick, as well as the Dark Patron's ability to use Displacement.

[ThiagoMartell]

Also, Mountebank is not nearly as bad as I thought it wa,s once I started reading it throughly.
I'm having trouble with Deceptive Attack, it's kind of badly written. I get bonus damage on characters I beguiled or feinted... but for how long? Beguiling Stare only lasts for a turn, but feint can leave a target without his Dex bonus a lot longer. There is no feinted condition, so I guess it applies to someone losing their Dex bonus due to feint.

The DM allowed me a choice of Rogue talents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents), as if I was a Rogue two levels lower (so I get on at 4th, one at 6th, one at 8th and so on so forth) and the bloodline powers of either the Abyssal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/abyssal-bloodline) or Infernal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/infernal-bloodline) sorcerer bloodlines.
This made me really want to go Mountebank all the way.

Now that I get the bloodline powers, tiefling is not really necessary for favor. The DM has promised me a favored class bonus for a tielfing mountebank, but I still don't know what it is. Unless it's really really good, I guess I'll go with half-elf. I can get a +2 to Cha and Skill Focus (Bluff), after all.
Abyssal Bloodline is more physical, so I think I'll go with it. If I do get Infernal Bloodline's Arcana (he just said Bloodline Powers, so I don't think so) and if it does apply to Beguiling Stare, I might consider it. The only Rogue talent I'm sure to take is Honeyed Words (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/honeyed-words-ex).

[Waker]

Feinting in combat denies the target it's dexterity against the next attack you make. Greater Feint and Improved Two-Weapon Feint both extend the dexterity loss until the beginning of your next turn.

[ThiagoMartell]

Feinting in combat denies the target it's dexterity against the next attack you make. Greater Feint and Improved Two-Weapon Feint both extend the dexterity loss until the beginning of your next turn.

I know that. It's the explanation of the Mountebank's bonus damage feature that is weird here.

The mountebank's attack deals extra damage against any target that is beguiled (as per the mountebank's beguiling stare ability) or against targets that she successfully feints.

[Waker]

Well, from my reading, you could only apply your Deceptive Attack damage to a target that is currently under the effect of your Beguiling Stare or denied their dexterity bonus due to feinting. Meaning that if you want to deal the extra damage you need to either use Stare or feint them every round.
Because Beguiling Stare has such a short duration and can't be used against a target multiple times, getting the feint feats are required. Sadly there aren't any Rogue Talents that directly aid in feinting.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, from my reading, you could only apply your Deceptive Attack damage to a target that is currently under the effect of your Beguiling Stare or denied their dexterity bonus due to feinting. Meaning that if you want to deal the extra damage you need to either use Stare or feint them every round.
Because Beguiling Stare has such a short duration and can't be used against a target multiple times, getting the feint feats are required. Sadly there aren't any Rogue Talents that directly aid in feinting.

That's my reading as well. With feats I can get feint as a swift action and lasting for a whole round, so there is that, at least.